Consistent Perfect SHFF Nairs

[Azazel]

Frame data
Nair (1st hit) frame 6
Nair (2nd hit) frame 15-21

Take note that the 2nd hit is a long-lasting hitbox, albeit not very long.

SHFF Nair is a roy staple for spacing, approaching, and combos so it is integral to have full over knowledge over it.

SHFF Nair can feel very inconsistent because sometimes you can FF in between the 2 swings and sometimes you can't. So I looked into this.

Spoiler

From a SH, when the 1st hit connects It turns out that the 2nd hitbox comes out before you actually can FF.

But what about the times where you can fast fall inbetween hits.

Spoiler

The 2nd hit is a long lasting hit-box. This is simply a result of the early frames of the hitbox whiffing, there is a window to FF while it is whiffing.

Here's the an experiment if you'd like to test it yourself

Spoiler

On sheik, 0% percent SHFF Nair does not register as a 2-hit combo and you can also FF inbetween the 2 hits.
On Donkey Kong, 0% SHFF Nair does register as a 2-hit combo, but you can only FF after both hits.
Sheik is lighter than Donkey Kong and therefore receives more hitstun than him.
We know that both hits of Nair combo DK at 0%, the combo meter says Nair is not a 2-hit combo so the 2nd hit must have connected later.
This was confirmed when got a 2-hit combo off of Nair on 0% sheik on a platform.

Also what about differences timing for FF on sweetspot or tipper because of the difference in hitlag.

Spoiler

The difference in hitlag is sorta negligible because FF can be buffered. You do need to have goldilocks timing to accommodate the for either case.

Input FF too early you'll only FF in the case you get a tipper
Input FF too late You'll FF ASAP for Sweetspot, but not for tipper.

In the case you can FF iafter the 1st hit, it's less precise since the difference in hitlag from the tipper and sweetspot is low.
In the case you have to FF after the 2nd hit, it is more precise since the difference in hitlag from tipper vs sweetspot is greater.

To do consistent perfect SHFF nairs, you simply have to account for each case.

Spoiler

1. short hop
2. buffer nair
   
3. In the case 1st hit of nair whiffs, buffer a FF input
   
4. 1st Hit of nair connects
   
5. In the case it is possible to FF inbetween hits, buffer a FF input
   
6. 2nd hit connects
7. in the case it was only possible to FF after the 2nd, react and buffer a FF input.

In short you should always do 2 FF inputs to accounts for the following cases:

1. First hit of Nair whiffs
2. Able to FF inbetween hits

You can however input 3 FF's to account for the last case

7.it was only possible to FF after the 2nd

I recommend that you don't because if both hits miss, then you are inputting a FF during Landing Lag of Nair which is only 13 frames, in which you may accidentally buffer an action (this is especially worrysome if you use C-stick to FF)

If Nair connects at all, input 3rd FF.

It is unlikey that you would whiff the 1st hit of Nair, and the 2nd Hit connects on the initial frames where you cannot FF (and hitlag messes with your timing)

TL;DR

Input 2 FF's,
one to FF if 1st hit of Nair whiffs
one to FF if 1st hit of Nair connects AND the FF window in between swings open up

if Nair connects at all add a 3rd FF input.
This is to FF in the case the 2nd hit of Nair connects before the FF in between swings open up

Your SHFF Nairs should always be crisp now.
Have fun with your insane Nair > Nair > Fair > Fair 50% combos
Amazing coverage, and spacing

 

[Swoops]

Thanks for this write-up, and especially the TL;DR afterwards . I've been having trouble with which timing is the most effective for NAir, but I never really thought of essentially option selecting different fastfall inputs.

Question for you, are you generally always buffering the NAir immediately out of SH when approaching? Because I've had difficulty with the various FF timings, I've found that delaying the NAir input helps to pressure and cross up shields effectively.

 

[Azazel]

Thanks for this write-up, and especially the TL;DR afterwards . I've been having trouble with which timing is the most effective for NAir, but I never really thought of essentially option selecting different fastfall inputs.

Question for you, are you generally always buffering the NAir immediately out of SH when approaching? Because I've had difficulty with the various FF timings, I've found that delaying the NAir input helps to pressure and cross up shields effectively.

Yes I do buffer Nair 100% of the time out of a short hop. I wouldn't have to much experience with a delayed nair on shield so I can't tell you if it's not as effective as blank. In my experience I haven't found a need to experiment with different Nair timings. So I've really only used perfect SHFF Nair and Apex of SH FF Nair (so only the first hit connects;I basically just hold and press at the peak on my SH because A-stick)
and no fast FF at all (to cover rolls because long lasting hit box)

1st hit of Nair covers ascent. 2nd hit of Nair covers descent. I never compromise Nair mobility because I use A-stick to nair so crossing-up shields hasn't been a problem when I plan to do it (It's either start Nair close enough to cross-up shield on the 2nd swing or start it farther to hit shorter characters/get max range/Get a combo started).

 

[Kealmir]

I always double tap the stick down immediately after short hopping out of habit because it keeps my rhythm/timing consistent, so I guess this is why i never had an issue with it. Good info to keep in mind though.