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More damage = more knockback = more hitstun, so until DB is hitting the opponent too far away to connect with the next strike, it's fine.
Solutionme
@
Locuan
someone gonna paste this in real quick? It's in the CR thread currently not looking very presentable.
I think I got it going. Either way, if it isn't let me know. I got a lot on my plate right now (family visiting) so make sure to tag me.So like... @
Thanks for telling me. I thought it was kind of weird when I posted that that it only had 1 damage value. Now I know why.Wow isn't that beautiful?
@A_Kae just noticed you accidentally took your shield breaker ground charged info from the Lucina section which also happens to be incorrect because of that damage buff she got after since 1.0.6
Solutionme
or @
Locuan
can change that sometime, that would be great, but if either of you can't do it right now, that's fine, I totally understand. The ground charged bit just needs to be replaced with that sometime.[spoiler="Original Post"]
As I hope most of you know by now, the frames in which you're forced to sit inside your shield has been increased in smash 4. Not only that, shield breaker got a tremendous buff as well, and I for one feel it is very underutilized.
So I want Marth mains to start throwing out ideas in which ways we can condition our opponent to throw out that shield and get ourselves the kill, keep in mind that you sit in your shield for 18 frames now, so even if you don't break it, you're going to hit the opponent.
Before we continue, keep in mind that assuming you're using the setup for the first time, you shouldn't be spamming SB unless you're looking for some other forms of conditioning, but those tend to be weaker. If you see the chance to get it after conditioning here and there, you know you need to go for it, even if you might get punished. Frame Data has been provided by other users so look down. In the end, while shields do take longer to get out of, it takes 1 more frame for SB to come out than a shield drop, so you have to keep sharp of your opponent's patterns or condition them. You have 15 frames where the shield is vulnerable, so make it count with the extra charge.
So here are a few ideas that I want to put here.
-Pivot f-tilt: Keep on doing it until you opponent catches on, from there you can space yourself pretty easily with a shield breaker as long as you reverse it when running away or foxtrotting if you are capable of doing it.
-Dash Dancing and Foxtrotting: Yes it may not seem that practical, but doing it close to an opponent keeps them guessing whether or not you plan to run in on them or just move away, so applying the Captain Falcon mindset to our opponent, we might condition them to throw out that shield or roll. If you expect them to shield, you can throw it out early, and it normally catches people off guard. Out of the DD and foxtrot you can SH shield breaker while moving away and it should work while also covering the roll. You can also end the dash or act out of the foxtrot, which is recommended more with the foxtrot especially due to less frames lost and generally less of a disadvantage.
-Dash attacks: Not the most useful one, but if you tend to throw out dash attacks when your opponent is landing, you can condition them to fast fall and shield. You can also rush at them with a dash attacks when they are on the ground, that normally keeps them in their shield, which from there you can end the dash and SB, or SH SB.
-Jab: I already know a lot of us have been discussing the implications of the new jab and know that if the opponent is trying to land instead of jumping away, we try to send them back in the air or get a tipped f-smash. So if they know you're trying it, just use shield breaker instead since they might try to fast fall to shield. I believe you can also cut their second jump short since jab 1 cancels pretty quick into another jab 1, or at least from what I've felt so far since around mid percents I've comboed it into itself. Someone verify the sentence before for me btw, might be character dependent.
-Landing mix-ups: Just condition your opponent to throw out their shield when you're landing by attacking and switch to a shield breaker, if you expect a roll, just land normally or reverse it, whatever you feel suits you since you can shield after a roll pretty quick.
-The presence of a throw-able item: Whether or not you're the one using it or they are, we know that depending on the item, people like to shield afterwards if they don't feel safe. So rush up to them assuming you don't build up extra lag and pop their shield. Alternatively if is a character who likes to punish your attacks on shield with a throwable item such as diddy kong, wait for them to throw that shield out and instead of attacking it, use the shield breaker. Alternatively, if you're the one with it, play a footsies mindgame with them and force the shield out, so you can break it.
-Ledge conditioning: This goes 2 ways. Let me start off when you're on it. Just let go of it and FH shield breaker after conditioning your opponent to block attacks. The disadvantage of this ends up being you lose invincibility the second time around unless they hit you once offstage. You can prevent getting killed early form a ledge punish by using a mix of non beefy and beefy up-bs to catch them off guard, which also just happens to be safe for Marth if spaced well since you have a very small frame disadvantage. Now for the edgeguarding segment. Most of the time people throw out moves when on top of the ledge to edgeguard if they get the appropriate read. Throwing out those attacks means out of the 2 get-up options, the opponent is more prone to shield so they don't get caught in the attack. If they plan to shield it will probably be a normal get-up to shield since it is the least laggy. At that point your best option to throw out is the Shield Breaker.
-D-tilt to Shield Breaker: This one can actually get some people off guard completely since at low percents d-tilt can in fact combo or string into itself. Just one d-tilt into a shield breaker makes it a shield break if they throw it out, or a badly damaged shield to finish breaking with some other move. This is one of the safest ways to get it, but it does not tend to be lethal in the end unless right next to the ledge, then just get a tipper shield breaker. At mid percents, you can string into a foxtrotted or dash danced SB, which is a little less safe.
-DB 1, 3, or 2 to Shield Breaker, though 2 is the most recommend: This is kind of similar to the jab situation, but tends to be weaker due to the higher ending lag, I recommend using this near the ledge more since if you think they don't intend to land instead and shield, you can just do the next few hits of DB to continue hurting them.
Keep in mind that even if you don't break the shield, you leave your opponent at a disadvantage where one dancing blade string or just an attack will break their shield, so you're forcing them into a pseudo-tech roll situation, except slightly more options are available to them. Alternatively damaging their shield slightly and catching them use their shield after a bit of conditioning also does the trick, but is not a true set-up, it mostly works off of them just not fighting back with their attacks to trade damage. The set-ups mentioned above put them at a disadvantage where sometimes using a defensive option is the better answer.
[/spoiler]
Edit: Added some set-ups and edited some segments. Will be adding a TL;DR section later.
The following are from Vipermoon64. He is better with wording than me so if you fancy something cleaner, I have it up here now for convenience. It also includes Shield Data which is important. I will also add SB data from A_Kae.
[spoiler="Vipermoon64's Additions"]
Now I consider Shield Breaker an important part of my game and at this point am an expert at the SB mind games. I break shields at touraments all the time.
- First, shields have 50 hp/% in Smash 4 and they take 100% of the damage of an attack in this iteration. This is why Shield Breaker in this game is so good by the way. The SB shield damage is absorbed full force by shields.
- Shield Breaker does 8 or 9% uncharged and in addition to that a +30 in shield damage (38-39 total). Fully charged it does 22 or 24% with an extra 50 in shield damage. From what I've experienced, I'm 100% sure that the shield damage gradually climbs from 30 to 50. It's not an instant "was 30, now it's 50" kind of thing. If you charge a non tipper shield breaker to 12% damage it does about +38 to the shield which ends up being 50 total.
- The move charges on frame 11 and gets released in 8 frames so the fastest it will be is 19. Slower than Melee (11 charge, 5 release) but same as Brawl. The hitbox only lasts 2 frames (8-9). Total frames are 52. 1 frame more than Fsmash but since this move comes out later it technically lags less.
-Tipper shield breaker doesn't do any more extra shield damage than non-tipper other than the slightly higher normal damage. So while you need the tipper for killing it's not usually going to make a difference in shield health.
- You never end up hitting a shield at full health because right after the perfect shield zone it depletes on it's own pretty fast. So as you can see, it doesn't take much charge to get the job done.
Mind games
Dancing Blade is a great way to set this up. The lag after DB2 is the lowest of all DB moves. Whether it's on hit or on shield, sometimes your opponent simply can't react OR more likely they're scared for the 4 frames they finally notice it and don't tell their fingers to drop shield. If they shield (not perfect shield) both hits of DB you don't have to charge SB at all! Enough time will have passed and enough damage dealt to get the deed done. If they get hit by both hits then it will take them a bit of time to get back to the ground. By the time they get to the ground and shield, your SB should be starting-up and/or charging. It does need a slight charge to break it in this case assuming their shield was at full health before.
You can also do DB1 > SB or DB3 > SB but those DBs are laggier so they don't work as well (though 3 DB hits will weaken the shield pretty well) but use these mix-ups especially if you think they expect SB only after DB2.
Dtilt and Jab 1 to SB was already mentioned. And landing stuff is obvious/already mentioned.
Have you ever hung from the ledge with your oppenent shielding right above you (or you think they will shield at reaction)? Double jump > Shield Breaker works great against this. Sometimes you don't have to charge this at all depending on the previous shield health and how long they hold it. You can either control stick down> DJ > SB or move control stick backwards > DJ > SB. The former will leave you close enough to get on stage with SB (aerial SB slightly boosts forward), the latter will not. Be careful for Smash attacks. If you get hit by one (or by something else) while trying this you already lost your double jump and will probably die.
One really smart way to break shields is on laggy moves. If your opponent whiffs a laggy move, charge shield breaker during their cool down. They are likely to shield on their first actionable frame.
Stand at the ledge at preferably tipper SB range if you predict a normal ledge get-up. Charge it. Shield is frame 1 so people like doing it after their get-up. This tactic is very good.
When your oppenent is on a platform this is your perfect opportunity to go for it. Like Smashville. And on Battlefield the platform is low enough and Marth's short hop is high enough that a SH rising SB is high enough to hit them/their shields.
Remember there is a turnaround B SB and a B-reversal SB. The former is inputted before hitting B, the latter is inputted after hitting B. Use them.
Tipper SB has 60 base knockback and 100 knockback growth. That is crazy high KB for those not familiar with KB values. It's extremely powerful even with barely any charge. Best of all it has a lot more range in the air than on the ground. It doesn't have to break shields. Punish with it. It works great against campers especially if they are near the ledge. People sometimes don't expect the aerial range of SB. It's not like they can shield it either.
Note: Marth has the lowest aerial friction in the game. Compared to say Jigglypuff, Marth will still glide in the air for a while after letting go of the control stick. This is what makes a falling shield breaker so useful.
And building upon the SB range, use it for reading rolls. Short hop forward or backward with SB. Turnaround and B-reversal are used here too.
After the break
They can mash out of SB probably cutting their stun time in half. I recommend using fully charged tipper SB for this as it kills much sooner than tipper Fsmash. Keep in mind that there are some really annoying characters out there. Ness, Captain Falcon, and many more like the wobble while in stun. This can cause your SB to miss. If it will kill, use fully charged Usmash or back hit of Dsmash on them instead. Keep in mind (IMPORTANT) your opppent's hurtboxes! Link and Bowser for example slump their head forward while in stun so you must be at a further range to get the tipper.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of all, don't use this move often. You want to keep it on your mind but make sure it's not on their minds.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler="A_Kae's Frame Data"]
Shield Breakers Frame Data
Shield Breaker (ground uncharged)
Frame 8- 9: 9%(+30) 60b/100g (KO@ 145%) 361° 1.6-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 8- 9: 8%(+30) 30b/90g (KO@ 228%) 361° Pierce
Max Damage: 9%
Shield Breaker (ground charged)
Frame 8- 9: 24%(+50) 60b/100g (KO@ 41%) 361° 1.6-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 8- 9: 22%(+50) 30b/90g (KO@ 76%) 361° Pierce
Max Damage: 24%
Source: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
SB hits on frame 19-20 with no charge, or 78-79 with full charge.
SB ends on frame 52 with no charge, or 111 with full charge.
Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...q5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit?pli=1#gid=120538987
Shield Frame Data
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)
Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/
[/spoiler][spoiler="Original Post"]
As I hope most of you know by now, the frames in which you're forced to sit inside your shield has been increased in smash 4. Not only that, shield breaker got a tremendous buff as well, and I for one feel it is very underutilized.
So I want Marth mains to start throwing out ideas in which ways we can condition our opponent to throw out that shield and get ourselves the kill, keep in mind that you sit in your shield for 18 frames now, so even if you don't break it, you're going to hit the opponent.
Before we continue, keep in mind that assuming you're using the setup for the first time, you shouldn't be spamming SB unless you're looking for some other forms of conditioning, but those tend to be weaker. If you see the chance to get it after conditioning here and there, you know you need to go for it, even if you might get punished. Frame Data has been provided by other users so look down. In the end, while shields do take longer to get out of, it takes 1 more frame for SB to come out than a shield drop, so you have to keep sharp of your opponent's patterns or condition them. You have 15 frames where the shield is vulnerable, so make it count with the extra charge.
So here are a few ideas that I want to put here.
-Pivot f-tilt: Keep on doing it until you opponent catches on, from there you can space yourself pretty easily with a shield breaker as long as you reverse it when running away or foxtrotting if you are capable of doing it.
-Dash Dancing and Foxtrotting: Yes it may not seem that practical, but doing it close to an opponent keeps them guessing whether or not you plan to run in on them or just move away, so applying the Captain Falcon mindset to our opponent, we might condition them to throw out that shield or roll. If you expect them to shield, you can throw it out early, and it normally catches people off guard. Out of the DD and foxtrot you can SH shield breaker while moving away and it should work while also covering the roll. You can also end the dash or act out of the foxtrot, which is recommended more with the foxtrot especially due to less frames lost and generally less of a disadvantage.
-Dash attacks: Not the most useful one, but if you tend to throw out dash attacks when your opponent is landing, you can condition them to fast fall and shield. You can also rush at them with a dash attacks when they are on the ground, that normally keeps them in their shield, which from there you can end the dash and SB, or SH SB.
-Jab: I already know a lot of us have been discussing the implications of the new jab and know that if the opponent is trying to land instead of jumping away, we try to send them back in the air or get a tipped f-smash. So if they know you're trying it, just use shield breaker instead since they might try to fast fall to shield. I believe you can also cut their second jump short since jab 1 cancels pretty quick into another jab 1, or at least from what I've felt so far since around mid percents I've comboed it into itself. Someone verify the sentence before for me btw, might be character dependent.
-Landing mix-ups: Just condition your opponent to throw out their shield when you're landing by attacking and switch to a shield breaker, if you expect a roll, just land normally or reverse it, whatever you feel suits you since you can shield after a roll pretty quick.
-The presence of a throw-able item: Whether or not you're the one using it or they are, we know that depending on the item, people like to shield afterwards if they don't feel safe. So rush up to them assuming you don't build up extra lag and pop their shield. Alternatively if is a character who likes to punish your attacks on shield with a throwable item such as diddy kong, wait for them to throw that shield out and instead of attacking it, use the shield breaker. Alternatively, if you're the one with it, play a footsies mindgame with them and force the shield out, so you can break it.
-Ledge conditioning: This goes 2 ways. Let me start off when you're on it. Just let go of it and FH shield breaker after conditioning your opponent to block attacks. The disadvantage of this ends up being you lose invincibility the second time around unless they hit you once offstage. You can prevent getting killed early form a ledge punish by using a mix of non beefy and beefy up-bs to catch them off guard, which also just happens to be safe for Marth if spaced well since you have a very small frame disadvantage. Now for the edgeguarding segment. Most of the time people throw out moves when on top of the ledge to edgeguard if they get the appropriate read. Throwing out those attacks means out of the 2 get-up options, the opponent is more prone to shield so they don't get caught in the attack. If they plan to shield it will probably be a normal get-up to shield since it is the least laggy. At that point your best option to throw out is the Shield Breaker.
-D-tilt to Shield Breaker: This one can actually get some people off guard completely since at low percents d-tilt can in fact combo or string into itself. Just one d-tilt into a shield breaker makes it a shield break if they throw it out, or a badly damaged shield to finish breaking with some other move. This is one of the safest ways to get it, but it does not tend to be lethal in the end unless right next to the ledge, then just get a tipper shield breaker. At mid percents, you can string into a foxtrotted or dash danced SB, which is a little less safe.
-DB 1, 3, or 2 to Shield Breaker, though 2 is the most recommend: This is kind of similar to the jab situation, but tends to be weaker due to the higher ending lag, I recommend using this near the ledge more since if you think they don't intend to land instead and shield, you can just do the next few hits of DB to continue hurting them.
Keep in mind that even if you don't break the shield, you leave your opponent at a disadvantage where one dancing blade string or just an attack will break their shield, so you're forcing them into a pseudo-tech roll situation, except slightly more options are available to them. Alternatively damaging their shield slightly and catching them use their shield after a bit of conditioning also does the trick, but is not a true set-up, it mostly works off of them just not fighting back with their attacks to trade damage. The set-ups mentioned above put them at a disadvantage where sometimes using a defensive option is the better answer.
[/spoiler]
Edit: Added some set-ups and edited some segments. Will be adding a TL;DR section later.
The following are from Vipermoon64. He is better with wording than me so if you fancy something cleaner, I have it up here now for convenience. It also includes Shield Data which is important. I will also add SB data from A_Kae.
[spoiler="Vipermoon64's Additions"]
Now I consider Shield Breaker an important part of my game and at this point am an expert at the SB mind games. I break shields at tournaments all the time.
- First, shields have 50 hp/% in Smash 4 and they take 100% of the damage of an attack in this iteration. This is why Shield Breaker in this game is so good by the way. The SB shield damage is absorbed full force by shields.
- Shield Breaker does 8 or 9% uncharged and in addition to that a +30 in shield damage (38-39 total). Fully charged it does 22 or 24% with an extra 50 in shield damage. From what I've experienced, I'm 100% sure that the shield damage gradually climbs from 30 to 50. It's not an instant "was 30, now it's 50" kind of thing. If you charge a non tipper shield breaker to 12% damage it does about +38 to the shield which ends up being 50 total.
- One other thing about shields is that they increase a character's hurtbox. This means your Shield Breaker will reach a shielding opponent at a slightly further range than normal.
- The move charges on frame 11 and gets released in 8 frames so the fastest it will be is 19. Slower than Melee (11 charge, 5 release) but same as Brawl. The hitbox only lasts 2 frames (8-9). Total frames are 52. 1 frame more than Fsmash but since this move comes out later it technically lags less.
- Tipper shield breaker doesn't do any more extra shield damage than non-tipper other than the slightly higher normal damage. So while you need the tipper for killing it's not usually going to make a difference in shield health.
- You never end up hitting a shield at full health because right after the perfect shield zone it depletes on it's own pretty fast. So as you can see, it doesn't take much charge to get the job done.
Mind games
Dancing Blade is a great way to set this up. The lag after DB2 is the lowest of all DB moves. Whether it's on hit or on shield, sometimes your opponent simply can't react OR more likely they're scared for the 4 frames they finally notice it and don't tell their fingers to drop shield. If they shield (not perfect shield) both hits of DB you don't have to charge SB at all! Enough time will have passed and enough damage dealt to get the deed done. If they get hit by both hits then it will take them a bit of time to get back to the ground. By the time they get to the ground and shield, your SB should be starting-up and/or charging. It does need a slight charge to break it in this case assuming their shield was at full health before.
You can also do DB1 > SB or DB3 > SB but those DBs are laggier so they don't work as well (though 3 DB hits will weaken the shield pretty well) but use these mix-ups especially if you think they expect SB only after DB2.
Dtilt and Jab 1 to SB was already mentioned. And landing stuff is obvious/already mentioned.
Have you ever hung from the ledge with your oppenent shielding right above you (or you think they will shield at reaction)? Double jump > Shield Breaker works great against this. Sometimes you don't have to charge this at all depending on the previous shield health and how long they hold it. You can either control stick down> DJ > SB or move control stick backwards > DJ > SB. The former will leave you close enough to get on stage with SB (aerial SB slightly boosts forward), the latter will not. Be careful for Smash attacks. If you get hit by one (or by something else) while trying this you already lost your double jump and will probably die.
One really smart way to break shields is on laggy moves. If your opponent whiffs a laggy move, charge shield breaker during their cool down. They are likely to shield on their first actionable frame.
Stand at the ledge at preferably tipper SB range if you predict a normal ledge get-up. Charge it. Shield is frame 1 so people like doing it after their get-up. This tactic is very good.
When your oppenent is on a platform this is your perfect opportunity to go for it. Like Smashville. And on Battlefield the platform is low enough and Marth's short hop is high enough that a SH rising SB is high enough to hit them/their shields.
Remember there is a turnaround B SB and a B-reversal SB. The former is inputted before hitting B, the latter is inputted after hitting B. Use them.
Tipper SB has 60 base knockback and 100 knockback growth. That is crazy high KB for those not familiar with KB values. It's extremely powerful even with barely any charge. Best of all it has a lot more range in the air than on the ground. It doesn't have to break shields. Punish with it. It works great against campers especially if they are near the ledge. People sometimes don't expect the aerial range of SB. It's not like they can shield it either.
Note: Marth has the lowest aerial friction in the game. Compared to say Jigglypuff, Marth will still glide in the air for a while after letting go of the control stick. This is what makes a falling shield breaker so useful.
And building upon the SB range, use it for reading rolls. Short hop forward or backward with SB. Turnaround and B-reversal are used here too.
After the break
They can mash out of SB probably cutting their stun time in half. I recommend using fully charged tipper SB for this as it kills much sooner than tipper Fsmash. Keep in mind that there are some really annoying characters out there. Ness, Captain Falcon, and many more like the wobble while in stun. This can cause your SB to miss. If it will kill, use fully charged Usmash or back hit of Dsmash on them instead. Keep in mind (IMPORTANT) your opppent's hurtboxes! Link and Bowser for example slump their head forward while in stun so you must be at a further range to get the tipper.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of all, don't use this move often. You want to keep it on your mind but make sure it's not on their minds.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler="A_Kae's Frame Data"]
Shield Breakers Frame Data
Shield Breaker (ground uncharged)
Frame 8- 9: 9%(+30) 60b/100g (KO@ 145%) 361° 1.6-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 8- 9: 8%(+30) 30b/90g (KO@ 228%) 361° Pierce
Max Damage: 9%
Shield Breaker (ground charged)
Frame 8- 9: 24%(+50) 60b/100g (KO@ 41%) 361° 1.6-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 8- 9: 22%(+50) 30b/90g (KO@ 76%) 361° Pierce
Max Damage: 24%
Source: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
SB hits on frame 19-20 with no charge, or 78-79 with full charge.
SB ends on frame 52 with no charge, or 111 with full charge.
Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...q5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit?pli=1#gid=120538987
Shield Frame Data
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)
Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/
[/spoiler]