Competitive community have commitment issues?

[Senario]

Why aren't you guys still discussing the question being asked in the OP? I think you have commitment issues.

Dang I always have problems committing to an issue or anything really. I always feel the need to go out and find another one, feels bad man. Like cheating on your girlfriend who really treats you like crap and has a few addictions but you don't mind sometimes and still try to see the best in her. Man those times man...then the fights they just wouldn't stop. Knives, plates, pots, pans, and all sorts of things were thrown at me maaaaan. But daaaaaaang good times man. Good times.

On a more serious note, This thread is interesting even though the title feels inflamatory ;p.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Statistically speaking, I am correct 100% of the time that I am not wrong.




Does it matter how I answer you when, if I had my own opinion, you'd just dismiss at parroting?

My perceptions are completely susceptible to change I just feel a lot less inclined to read what you say seriously when your opinion comes attached to a personal attack of some sort...which always seem to be the case.

On the subject of aerial landing lag, I'm willing to accept that those who share my point of view are utterly and totally wrong but we should wait for the game to release before we get too crazy on damning the game.

I'll be getting enough experimentation soon enough and then that will likely be where my perception will be changed if your camp ends up being right.

 

[Tagxy]

This thread seems to be turning into an example of why good analysis doesnt happen here much. Lets make an effort to improve discussion before it forces changes around here.

You may want to take it in stride with the rest of us. The guy just really loves parrots

The problem with landing lag does not have much to do with the moves being safe actually, although for some moves it would (some moves are useless without being safe, like Falco's fair was in Brawl). Anyone who thinks that probably plays the game at a superficial depth. The real problem with long landing lag is that you lose capacity to combo, quite the opposite in that you are punishing someone else for not being safe.

If the ability to combo is your concern, then consideration is needed for hitstun as it works in conjunction with landing lag. As someone stated earlier, I was able to combo from pikachu's traditionally laggy uair directly into a utilt. Curiously you skipped over that post as you've responded to all others.

It hurts that the non-lagless moves aerials are the ones without freaking massive amounts of landing lag.

It also hurts that most of those moves are minimally useful moves to begin with.

Now give many of the best aerial moves lagless landing and few of the worst aerial moves lagless landing and you have a very unbalanced tiers of aerial moves.

Without commenting on anything else, I think trying to determine the utility of moves at this point in time is not useful. A better time may be in one to two years when top level analysis and players have made statements on such things.

If you want a better balance between grounded and aerial approach, you can accomplish it by buffing the grounded side and not touching the aerial side at all. Personally I don't think aerials really needed nerfing to begin with. More importantly than approaching, they are used to control space in neutral. The reason being you can weave in and out while maintaining hitboxes. And in the case of applying pressure, that also means easier control over spacing, allowing you to cross up and so forth. On the other hand, grounded moves render you immobile, or in some cases just slide a certain predictable distance, and are just a bit easier to punish. The benefit of being grounded is having a greater versatility of moves, and generally just keeping more options open.

They both already have benefits, and I think in balancing aerial and grounded game it would be beneficial to focus on these sorts of things rather than heedlessly adding landing lag just for the sake of it. Now, if there is good reason for increased landing lag separate to this, then that's fine. And I'd like to see how they approach the utility of aerials. But I really hope they consider all the options if they're really trying to shift to slightly more ground game.

Hmm, the biggest problem I have with this is all your grounded scenarios are given in the context of aerials. Something like "Ground game is good because it gives me the opportunity to use more aerials". I dont think thats what people had in mind when they wanted a better balanced ground game. That being said, I will say that the aerial game, especially melees, really is overbearing and improving the ground game likely would lead to unpleasant things.

 

[Johnknight1]

Without commenting on anything else, I think trying to determine the utility of moves at this point in time is not useful. A better time may be in one to two years when top level analysis and players have made statements on such things.

If you can tell the priority, knockback, hitstun, changes from no stale moves negation to stale moves negation, pre-lag, and post-lag of a move, you can tell how useful it is.

It doesn't take Einstein to realize that Toon Link's down air in Brawl was trash from the word "go."

Granted, there will be changes from that build on, but in that build, back air was trash, whereas forward air was great.

Z-air was God tier though.

 

[Tagxy]

If you can tell the priority, knockback, hitstun, changes from no stale moves negation to stale moves negation, pre-lag, and post-lag of a move, you can tell how useful it is.

It doesn't take Einstein to realize that Toon Link's down air in Brawl was trash from the word "go."

Granted, there will be changes from that build on, but in that build, back air was trash, whereas forward air was great.

Z-air was God tier though.

Uhh whaaaat? Ask FOW or MJG how "trash" Toon Links down air is in Brawl, moreover, ask them if they were able to fully understand its utility in the very beginning of Brawl's release (spoiler that neither of them will agree with you). Ask any metaknight if they knew the extent to which MK's backair could combo before Otori displayed it in 2012. As a player that helped develop pikachu from the ground up, I can easily tell you people took for granted moves like backair, dair, and jab for years. And this is just the tip of the iceberg on examples.

Simply put your perspective runs the exact opposite of reality, nor do I think the vast majority of players that analyzes the game at a high level would agree with you. I only emphasize this not to be critical but because I find a mentality where we assume to know more than we might actually know to be harmful.

 

[Johnknight1]

Uhh whaaaat? Ask FOW or MJG how "trash" Toon Links down air is in Brawl, moreover, ask them if they were able to fully understand its utility in the very beginning of Brawl's release (spoiler that neither of them will agree with you).

Don't really know or care since I don't much more or remember much about when I played Brawl, lol.

Don't see how it is useful very much. It's a situation at best kind of move.

Wish I did know more about it though instead of when I just implemented 64 and Melee stuff into it.

But alas, a move that always looked weak and always will be weak: PK Flash.

With air dodging being a thing, it's easy to avoid.

 

[Tagxy]

text

That misses the point. Things we may determine to be weak or useless may in fact provide great use when viewed from different perspectives (as you implied with dair). The best players are typically known for their innovations in this area. It happens too often that players write off moves or sometimes whole characters too early, and this is something as a community we should avoid. I can say that with moves like PK flash, the best players and analysts wont look at the move and write it off. They spend countless hours testing it for uses and situations and only after theyve put in great time and effort will they decide the move is weak.

Its especially important to avoid this for things that have only been tested for a day.

 

[Renji64]

I don't have a problem committing to a move. I do have a problem with a ton of lag and a slow paced game. I like to deal as much pressure as possible.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I don't have a problem committing to a move. I do have a problem with a ton of lag and a slow paced game. I like to deal as much pressure as possible.

What in the game has too much lag for you?

 

[Terotrous]

Man, all of these threads about pre-release game balance are completely terrible.

This thread was answered in like the fourth post. Virtually every character has been shown to have some lagless aerials. Some of them aren't the same ones they were in melee, causing an initial panic that there were no lagless aerials, but we should all know much better by now if you're watched any recent videos.

 

[Tristan_win]

General complaints about smash 4 definitely has to be landing lag. When ask why this is a problem it generaly leads to "its unsafe to attack on shields" and virtually want all attacks to have little to regrets when using it.

Witch comes to make me believe that do people have problems with committing to there actions aka attacking knowing the move will leave you open in you get blocks or miss? I want to hear some honest opinions.

I don't really want to get into all the theory behind it but here's how I see this.
If the majority of aerials are very laggy then Smash4 could very easily be the worst smash game to date. If aerials are done incorrectly by making the longer range aerials unusable for poking and zoning then our offensive options will be greatly limited. It's critical to most characters to be able to poke and zone with their air game and if they can't then a lot of characters will be played similar to Snake in Brawl. Snake as a character relies heavily on his B moves, his fantastic Jab, ftilt and good rewarding grab. Now imagine Snake fighting another character force to use only those moves but with less range, knock back, and there B moves weren't made for setting up traps. What you have is a useless character who is completely out shine by Snake. Making aerials worst not only limit gameplay, playing styles and most likely more but also can make a lot of characters less viability.

 

[Hitzel]

Man, all of these threads about pre-release game balance are completely terrible.

This thread was answered in like the fourth post. Virtually every character has been shown to have some lagless aerials. Some of them aren't the same ones they were in melee, causing an initial panic that there were no lagless aerials, but we should all know much better by now if you're watched any recent videos.

To be honest, I'm more worried about hitstun and blockstun than ending lag on moves. They all fall into the same category, though.

I see no reason for people not to voice their concerns, even if they're not wholly necessary. All too often, pre-release discussions like this are met by "wait for the game to come out," and when the game comes out the problems are still there and it's too late for change. The demo could have wowed and impressed the competitive crowd almost universally, but it didn't, so let people be honest.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I come to this thread Competitive smashers aren't committed thread, thinking thats its about "most whine about tech being too hard and give up after one minute of weak effort" like many of the frequent SSB4 boarders.

Then I realize it was another one of the "competitive Smashers want another Melee, Fox only, FD, everything cancellable on hit" type of thread, the thread that are particularly aggressive (lol and you're successful too, just like how Melee's aggressions l made it successful) towards competitive Melee/PM players.

Tell you what. Competitive Smashers don't want to commit. They don't want to put any effort into improving at the game! I have seen someone actually say that they wanted to just play the game for an hour and be competing at a high level that quick! Thse competitive Smashers do not want to commit at all. It takes time to be good at anything. I can't just want to become the greatest guitarist in the world with one hour of practice and complain that plucking strings is too hard, and that it should just automatically play what I want it to play. Thats dumb and just doesn't work that way. You should commit to Smash if you want to be good. You should be putting in time in to learn all of the inner workings of your character and each specific matchup.

But that's not what this thread is about. *sigh*

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I come to this thread Competitive smashers aren't committed thread, thinking thats its about "most whine about tech being too hard and give up after one minute of weak effort" like many of the frequent SSB4 boarders.

Then I realize it was another one of the "competitive Smashers want another Melee, Fox only, FD, everything cancellable on hit" type of thread, the thread that are particularly aggressive (lol and you're successful too, just like how Melee's aggressions l made it successful) towards competitive Melee/PM players.

Tell you what. Competitive Smashers don't want to commit. They don't want to put any effort into improving at the game! I have seen someone actually say that they wanted to just play the game for an hour and be competing at a high level that quick! Thse competitive Smashers do not want to commit at all. It takes time to be good at anything. I can't just want to become the greatest guitarist in the world with one hour of practice and complain that plucking strings is too hard, and that it should just automatically play what I want it to play. Thats dumb and just doesn't work that way. You should commit to Smash if you want to be good. You should be putting in time in to learn all of the inner workings of your character and each specific matchup.

But that's not what this thread is about. *sigh*

there are plenty of other thing's the smash community ain't committed to and we can discuss those as well.
i was just talking about the main generalization. instead of myself going through the need to type this stuff others will be more willing to do so, like yourself. over all good opinion but a bit venomous.

 

[victinivcreate1]

there are plenty of other thing's the smash community ain't committed to and we can discuss those as well.
i was just talking about the main generalization. instead of myself going through the need to type this stuff others will be more willing to do so, like yourself. over all good opinion but a bit venomous.

I am a bit over the top with my opinions and I don't mind one bit. Venomous I take as a compliment xD

 

[Raijinken]

Figured it out. It's not that people don't want to commit to an attack, it's that people don't want to commit to a change in game mechanics.

I don't have a problem committing to a move. I do have a problem with a ton of lag and a slow paced game. I like to deal as much pressure as possible.

Sounds like you should be a Sheik player, she has none of those issues, and is easy to combo with to boot.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Figured it out. It's not that people don't want to commit to an attack, it's that people don't want to commit to a change in game mechanics.


Sounds like you should be a Sheik player, she has none of those issues, and is easy to combo with to boot.

Can you explain? because more than certainly people committed to different mechanics between 64 and melee.

 

[Raijinken]

Can you explain? because more than certainly people committed to different mechanics between 64 and melee.

I don't deny that they did, however, from what I've heard and seen, Smash64 didn't have a significant competitive community, and since it was released late in the life of the N64, was considerably more of a cult hit on the system than Melee, which was the Gamecube's best-selling game, period. In this case, I think it fair to say that Melee had a more significant amount of "fresh blood" coming into the game and system, as opposed to Brawl or Smash 4 which, while they have their "I've never played Smash before" crowd, are also drawing heavily from players of past games.

But even on the purely mechanical levels, aerial approaches were still better for most characters in Smash 64, and the size of the viable roster is pretty much the same

 

[κomıc]

Maybe the remedy for this landing lag debacle are custom movesets?

Because I don't know... Maybe certains changes affect small attributes to a character? Or I'm just reaching...

In all honesty, I think people are wigging out on an issue that probably won't be as bad as they think. Okay, so Marth has some landing lag but that doesn't automatically mean he is useless nor does he have potential. As for combos, well, find another way. Someone brought up a good point that several characters have little to no landing lag after using specific moves. Maybe it is time to switch up your strategies. I mean, do people want all moves to have ZERO landing lag? That would kinda break things and we'd have characters with a far better edge than another just because their aerials are better than most.

On the other hand, Smash Bros will never be truly balanced.

Thankfully, we're in 2014 and both Wii U and 3DS are capable of getting games patched up to accommodate potential shortcomings and flaws the game is bound to have.

 

[Senario]

Maybe the remedy for this landing lag debacle are custom movesets?

Because I don't know... Maybe certains changes affect small attributes to a character? Or I'm just reaching...

In all honesty, I think people are wigging out on an issue that probably won't be as bad as they think. Okay, so Marth has some landing lag but that doesn't automatically mean he is useless nor does he have potential. As for combos, well, find another way. Someone brought up a good point that several characters have little to no landing lag after using specific moves. Maybe it is time to switch up your strategies. I mean, do people want all moves to have ZERO landing lag? That would kinda break things and we'd have characters with a far better edge than another just because their aerials are better than most.

On the other hand, Smash Bros will never be truly balanced.

Thankfully, we're in 2014 and both Wii U and 3DS are capable of getting games patched up to accommodate potential shortcomings and flaws the game is bound to have.

They want reduced, not removed landing lag. Melee had this where everybody had a set amount but it was reduced due to L cancelling. It made some moves such as Ganon's forward air still risky to throw out and miss (mostly because it is still punishable) but made a good amount of moves safe on block with proper spacing which helped the game be offensive. Marth Down air is punishable if you miss, ganon down air, ect ect. And Falcon can't really "space" with his knee so if it is blocked then you get shield grabbed. (This is why you combo into it first then you can follow up on it due to it's low landing lag).

If it turns out that some chars who are slower have too long lag you may not see them at all depending how the metagame develops. They have no way to make up that difference of power thanks to their relative speeds. (look at ganon in brawl)

Edit: On custom movesets. It would be amazing if we got an attribute that goes in the defense slot that says "lowered landing lag" Or if the movement slot's "Increase in speed" allows dash dancing. Not sure what the power or damage does but if that made it so games go faster or people don't live ridiculously long it would also be amazing. The only problem is getting the same roll on the stat ): It seems to be variable and not a set amount.

 

[κomıc]

They want reduced, not removed landing lag. Melee had this where everybody had a set amount but it was reduced due to L cancelling. It made some moves such as Ganon's forward air still risky to throw out and miss (mostly because it is still punishable) but made a good amount of moves safe on block with proper spacing which helped the game be offensive. Marth Down air is punishable if you miss, ganon down air, ect ect. And Falcon can't really "space" with his knee so if it is blocked then you get shield grabbed. (This is why you combo into it first then you can follow up on it due to it's low landing lag).

If it turns out that some chars who are slower have too long lag you may not see them at all depending how the metagame develops. They have no way to make up that difference of power thanks to their relative speeds. (look at ganon in brawl)

Edit: On custom movesets. It would be amazing if we got an attribute that goes in the defense slot that says "lowered landing lag" Or if the movement slot's "Increase in speed" allows dash dancing. Not sure what the power or damage does but if that made it so games go faster or people don't live ridiculously long it would also be amazing. The only problem is getting the same roll on the stat ): It seems to be variable and not a set amount.

Well, Ganon isn't supposed to be flying in the air like Kirby and Peach but I get it.

For custom movesets, I would like to imagine in some way it'll work like Kid Icarus Uprising where certain weapons either help or hinder your performance (dashing, confusion aliment, paralysis aliment, Dash-attack). I'd love to see more information on how collecting these "movesets" in Classic Mode or earning them in rewards pan out. I think if this was the case for Smash 4, it'll open up much more opportunities to build your character to your liking and style. It's like League of Legends or even Pokemon. Customization can and will help.

 

[Senario]

Well, Ganon isn't supposed to be flying in the air like Kirby and Peach but I get it.

For custom movesets, I would like to imagine in some way it'll work like Kid Icarus Uprising where certain weapons either help or hinder your performance (dashing, confusion aliment, paralysis aliment, Dash-attack). I'd love to see more information on how collecting these "movesets" in Classic Mode or earning them in rewards pan out. I think if this was the case for Smash 4, it'll open up much more opportunities to build your character to your liking and style. It's like League of Legends or even Pokemon. Customization can and will help.

Well ganon was super slow anywhere he was in brawl. Makes me sad cause ganon was a ton of fun in melee but ended up on the bottom of the bucket in brawl.

As for customization, I agree that customizable attributes can and will help as long as they modify worthwhile things. They may need a little bit of consistency like league's runes where the highest tier of runes don't "roll" stats but give a set amount. Like AP Quints giving 4.95 AP. If done like that attribute changes would be amazing in smash 4. But if it is more like getting a unique drop in a game like path of exile well...RNG kinda messes with setting it up for tournaments. Some stations will have a big enough difference in one modifyable attribute that it is noticable at top levels of play and that is bad because what if one player has a significant advantage due to their character of choice having the attribute with a higher roll?

Dunno, modifyable attributes can work imo. Better than custom movesets because I'm not sure how balanced those are. Or if they are balanced at all. You can't selectively say some characters can use these custom options while others cannot.