Cloud's Blade beam boost AT found

[CaliburChamp]

This one is relatively simple as I found it on accident. Just press "B" while in the air, then quickly tilt the control stick towards the stage to make Cloud boost a bit forward improving his recovery slightly. I call it the Blade Beam Boost or BBB for short.



This can also be used defensively while jumping, just do the opposite motion and Cloud will boost backwards a bit after using it.
or

This can be used both as an extra tiny boost to recovery and on stage for offensive pressure or to stay a bit safer. Despite its simplicity it seems useful to me.

EDIT: Looking deeper into this it seems that the best way to recover with this is to BBB (without LB), then double jump to get back the aerial momentum that was lost slightly with the stall of BB. The extra projectile also helps to cover your recovery during this time too.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think that one is only possible because an aerial Blade Beam stalls him in the air a bit.

Regardless, it still has some uses.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I think that one is only possible because an aerial Blade Beam stalls him in the air a bit.

Regardless, it still has some uses.

It does stall him slightly but it helps move him forward or backwards a bit. It's kind of like how Marth's side b worked as a recovery in melee with the different inputs of course.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It does stall him slightly but it helps move him forward or backwards a bit. It's kind of like how Marth's side b worked as a recovery in melee with the different inputs of course.

Or Mario's Cape.

 

[Top Boss]

This isn't an AT but I was using this yesterday to make my recovery a little safer and whatnot.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

It's sort of an AT. Blade beams main use is a projectile, but the small aerial stall it causes does help cloud out when it comes to getting closer to the stage, it might even be possible to do this twice in one recovery if you get sent flying far and high.

 

[Top Boss]

If you get sent by something like Luigi's forward smash, then 2 projectiles should be possible.
You might as well call shield grabs an AT if you consider this one as well. lol

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I consider an AT to be any move used in an atypical way. For example, B reversed shadow ball as a means of horizontal recovery for mewtwo. In this case, it's about using the blade beam to stall clouds fall and achieve more horizontal distance, which is pretty good for clouds already poor recovery.

 

[inconspikuous]

if the diagonal tilt towards the stage is more effective than a horizontal tilt towards the stage, it is valuable knowledge as cloud's recovery is pretty bad. does that make it an AT? not sure, but i don't care, i'm happy that the OP shared the knowledge.

 

[Top Boss]

I would consider an AT to be a tactic(usually available to all characters) that requires somewhat specific inputs and can be applied with many different moves and situations. So something like a shield drop would be an AT, but not something like the blade trick, since the stalling/extra movement is just a characteristic of the move.That would be like calling shine stalls an AT, which I don't necessarily agree with. This is just an opinion so you don't have to agree with me.

 

[Chiroz]

Are you sure this actually helps? Blade Beam seems to kill all horizontal momentum which means even though it boosts you you'll start moving slower, so doing this too early seems to be worse off. The lag after the move is so much that doing this next to the edge will also leave you worse off.



I am testing on a custom stage with 2 platforms. Doing the move anywhere before the fall of Cloud's 2nd jump leaves me at a worse position than I was before (less horizontal distance and I also reach the platform at a lower vertical position). Doing this after I am max fall speed (after 2nd jump) seems to leave me at the exact same position as if I hadn't done it, only when I land I am still in lag which means if I needed to Up-B then not doing it would be optimal.



It's a good technique to mess your opponents edgeguarding and to mix up your recovery. It even provides a safe return since the missile will be covering your front but I honestly don't think it helps at all in terms of recovery distance. In fact I believe it makes it slightly worse.



Also I think Cross Slash is much better to throw off timing since it does not put you in any lag whatsoever once you start to fall (you can Up-B immediately when the fall starts). Cross Slash also kills all your momentum though so it should be used when you know you can make it back after using it.

Also doing Cross Slash right before doing your second jump DOES help recovery. Blade Beam lags too much (you fall too far down) to actually help but with Cross Slash you can gain a very small amount of horizontal displacement by doing Cross Slash right before jumping. Remember to only do this if you're already falling, if you're rising it will probably nerf your recovery.




Try testing it out yourself. Make a stage with 2 platforms far apart. Try making the floor in some texture that's easy to measure. Make 1 platform be on the top left and one on the bottom right. Make the distance a reasonable amount. Then test it by running off the top left platform onto the bottom one. Test the following:

Blade Beam right as you start falling.
Blade Beam once you're max fall speed (right before 2nd jump)
Blade Beam as you're rising (2nd jump)
Blade Beam as you're max fall speed (2nd jump)


With Blade Beam the only one that seemed to do equally as good as doing nothing was the 4th but the lag was so huge that I wouldn't be able to Up-B which is still a nerf to recovery unless you're higher than the ledge (at which point you don't need the boost anyways).


Testing the same cases with Cross Slash case 4 seems to be the exact same as doing nothing but it stalls a bit allowing you to mess your opponent. Case 2 actually gives you a slight horizontal distance buff to recovery! Probably going to start using Cross Slash like this. The other 2 cases were nerfs to recovery distance.

 

[inconspikuous]

after labbing, it looks like the straight horizontal tilt or gives more movement than any other directional input, or.

and i agree with raykz, this tech may be useful to mixup your landing or delaying your vertical trajectory while covering the space in front of you, but purely from a recovery standpoint, this either makes his recovery worse or, at best, the exact same as if you did not use it. cloud's horizontal movement is killed and he drops for too long after initiating the move to make it more useful. plus, it does not give him an extra 'boost' again the second time in the air. i theorized it would be useful like g&w bucket brakes in brawl, but i don't think it has that use either.

tl;dr: neutral b + horizontal tilt towards stage is beneficial as a mixup to your recovery, no net recovery 'gain' from using it.

 

[Garde Noir]

Any idea how it works with Limit? Better, worse, same?
Not at my Wii U right now, and seeing as using it at all will use your Limit without the ability to use it for Up-B, if it doesn't work any better, then it's something we should know if we're going to incorporate it into play at all.

 

[Top Boss]

Limit probably doesn't make much of a difference, and it wouldn't be worth losing a perfectly good limit charge just to mix up your recovery. I mean, you could try it if you don't have a double jump, but otherwise, don't bother stalling with limit charged neutral B.
You'll also get rekt if you try to stall after all of your recoveries since you're actually very vulnerable if your stall gets predicted.

 

[Chiroz]

Any idea how it works with Limit? Better, worse, same?
Not at my Wii U right now, and seeing as using it at all will use your Limit without the ability to use it for Up-B, if it doesn't work any better, then it's something we should know if we're going to incorporate it into play at all.

I mean if you have LB AND you need to recover why use it on Blade Beam?

Limit probably doesn't make much of a difference, and it wouldn't be worth losing a perfectly good limit charge just to mix up your recovery. I mean, you could try it if you don't have a double jump, but otherwise, don't bother stalling with limit charged neutral B.
You'll also get rekt if you try to stall after all of your recoveries since you're actually very vulnerable if your stall gets predicted.

Doing Blade Beam without having a second jump severely nerfs your recovery. You guys are underestimating the end lag + overestimating Cloud's aerial acceleration. You NEED a second jump and you need to perform it as soon as you can after Blade Beam if you don't want Blade Beam to make you SD (unless you're above ledge level, then by all means Blade Beam).

 

[smashPony]

if you do limit blade beam directly after a shorthop on top of your opponent and drift forward you can combo it into up air/ forward air/rar back air/ cross slash/ up b/neutral air. its a nice low% combo (around 15% on sheik) if they are unsuspecting of it. DI up and away makes it not work tho. although straight DI away still has followups.

 

[Chiroz]

if you do limit blade beam directly after a shorthop on top of your opponent and drift forward you can combo it into up air/ forward air/rar back air/ cross slash/ up b/neutral air. its a nice low% combo (around 15% on sheik) if they are unsuspecting of it. DI up and away makes it not work tho. although straight DI away still has followups.

Is this a true combo or does the opponent get to move first? Because if the opponent gets to move first this seems like a "only works the very first time you do it" kind of thing. Blade Beam isn't exactly lightning fast. Once your opponent knows this is an option he has plenty of time to react and punish.

 

[inconspikuous]

i can't tell... does cloud have a hitbox from his sword when he does the blade beam (like dedede)? i feel like he doesn't, so if they get past the beam he's pretty open.

 

[Chiroz]

i can't tell... does cloud have a hitbox from his sword when he does the blade beam (like dedede)? i feel like he doesn't, so if they get past the beam he's pretty open.

I don't know if he has a hitbox but if he does it deals the exact same damage and knockback as the Beam itself. First thing I tested.

 

[kyoskue]

Blade Beam has no physical hitbox as Ness and Lucas absorb it at any range with Psymagnet, Mr. Game & Watch Buckets it, and Fox's Reflecter reflects it.

 

[Chiroz]

Blade Beam has no physical hitbox as Ness and Lucas absorb it at any range with Psymagnet, Mr. Game & Watch Buckets it, and Fox's Reflecter reflects it.

I guessed as much. Basically the hitbox for the beam starts inside Cloud, but it's still only the beam.

 

[Garde Noir]

I mean if you have LB AND you need to recover why use it on Blade Beam?







Doing Blade Beam without having a second jump severely nerfs your recovery. You guys are underestimating the end lag + overestimating Cloud's aerial acceleration. You NEED a second jump and you need to perform it as soon as you can after Blade Beam if you don't want Blade Beam to make you SD (unless you're above ledge level, then by all means Blade Beam).

Well yes, but I figured while we're theory crafting.
In the 1 in a billion chance we're by the edge, and a person comes off to edgeguard. I know Up-B doesn't deal damage the same way, and Blade Beam stalls them for a bit longer.
Hell, I'm just fishing for something to justify my curiosity.

Edit: it seems that Blade Beam also follows up into lower percentage combos, so it could be a good mixup offstage, especially if the opponent is expecting the up-B

 

[CaliburChamp]

Okay, this is more of a technique than AT. I just used the wrong wording but regardless, all techniques have their own name despite the simplicity of it.

Shout outs to Raykz for looking deeper into this. I agree with what you said. The optimal way to recover with cloud would be to BBB first, before double jumping and finally use up b otherwise the boost from blade beam is negated with the loss of aerial momentum.

The on stages uses for this could probably be even more useful. I was thinking about the uses of LB BBB to boost forward as the beam either shield stuns or hits opponent making it easier to follow up an attack. Also, this can be used on platform stages to cut off a frame or 2 of recovery time, kind of like platform canceling your move. Or it just might be more useful to boost onto the platform in some occasions instead of on the stage depending on the situation.

It would be great if more people can test these applications out since my time is limited this weekend.