Clones - why hate them?

[CrazyPerson]

When it comes to clones, I can tolerate Semi-Clones if they are considerably different from the character they are derived from like Lucas, Luigi, Falco, ect. However, they still have to be a tiny fraction of the overall cast, as I do not want it to become oversaturated with duplicate characters. Also, I rather they only keep one Semi-Clone/Derivative character per base moveset, which is why I wasn't fond of Wolf in Brawl regardless of how different he was from Fox overall.

As for full clones, I feel they provide nothing of value and would be happier with a slightly smaller cast and not have them in. When I play, I do not notice the "tipper" effect on Marth, so he and Lucina are identical in my book. Dark Pit is even worse as he really is just Pit in a black robe. Sure, there may be a teeny tiny difference between them, but it's not enough for me to see any reason to ever play as him.

This may be where a lot of the clone love/hate come into play.

When you 1st pick up the character, the differences aren't noticed. As with any competitive game in life, the higher the level of competition the more important the small differences are. Most players (including me) will never get to the top level of play... and for those people having a character that at their level has only negligible differences. Even if that group knows it didn't take away from someone they wanted, took a lot less time to make than a full redo... it can feel like a waste when Lucina is "marth without the tip effect" or Ganndonrof is a "Slower, stronger captian Falcon". To many players even if they read the differences... they aren't noticeable at there level of play.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

This may be where a lot of the clone love/hate come into play.

When you 1st pick up the character, the differences aren't noticed. As with any competitive game in life, the higher the level of competition the more important the small differences are. Most players (including me) will never get to the top level of play... and for those people having a character that at their level has only negligible differences. Even if that group knows it didn't take away from someone they wanted, took a lot less time to make than a full redo... it can feel like a waste when Lucina is "marth without the tip effect" or Ganndonrof is a "Slower, stronger captian Falcon". To many players even if they read the differences... they aren't noticeable at there level of play.

You make a great point. Coming from more of a casual play stance, subtle elements such as doing more damage at the tip vs the base vs even damage throughout has little effect or consideration when the stage is cluttered with hazards, pokemon/assist characters and explosives everywhere. I am fully aware that these differences exist, but the similarities are by far much more noticeable and have more affect on my playing experience.

 

[Deleted member]

But what's kind of stupid, if you think about it, is how Dark Pit and Lucina get so much flak but Alph gets none, simply because Alph did receive his own icon on the CSS. In fact, Alph was going to be a clone, but then the team decided to do less work and keep him an alt. But to do more work and grant an alt a few more changes and their own icon on the CSS, they get bashed endlessly. It's stupid. They're really just extra characters that didn't replace anyone. Lucina even had many fans that wanted her in Smash, so now they can all be happy! Nobody asked for Dark Pit, but who cares? Lots of people have played as him anyway just for fun and his inclusion didn't sabatoge a dang thing. Dark Pit is LITERALLY a clone of Pit, so why are we throwing our arms up in the air about him being so similar to Pit? I tell you what, when the next Smash comes around and Dark Pit is gone, people will miss him. Be nice to clones. They never hurt you.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Some might miss him, but I think he'll be more lumped in the same category as Pichu and Young Link in which the vast majority will be happy he is gone.

 

[Khao]

I don't like them because they're completely unnecesary at this point (due to the humongous amount of characters already in the game), and because they sometimes kinda cheapen the character that was made a clone in some ways.

For one, Ganondorf got into Melee as a clone. If he wasn't a clone, he wouldn't have gotten in at all.

But now that he is in multiple games and half of his moveset is still taken from Captain Falcon, while having none of his iconic moves from his own games... Was that really a good thing to happen? Wouldn't it have been better to leave him out of Melee, and add him on Brawl where there would likely have been more time to properly develop his moveset? It's already too late to change him, his moveset is an established part of Smash. Did it really have to be like this, though? If they actually had been time to make Ganondorf a full character from scratch, would he have been anything even remotely close to what he's like today? Most likely not, so I question the decision to make him a clone in the first place.

There's a similar situation with this game's clones. Most notably with Lucina. Lucina may have posed as Marth for a while in her own game, but she's her own character. She has her own fighting style. She has her own moves. She doesn't even use her own fighting stance in this game! But now that she got added in as a Marth clone, she'll probably stay as one even if she returns for the next game. Even if she gets different animations and stats to make for a different kind of playstyle, that Marth base will always be there. It's a far less extreme case as with Ganondorf, as at least she's from the same Franchise as Marth, and they both belong to the Lord class. But it's still going to hold back the full potential of Lucina as a unique fighter if they choose to bring her back in the future.

Dr. Mario I just find a lame clone because he's literally Mario with a different costume. I find clones fun when they add a new character into the game. Otherwise, why bother?

Dark Pit on the other hand? I think he's a good clone. Kind of a weird choice considering that Kid Icarus also got a newcomer in this game, but he's a good clone anyway. I mean, he's a different character from Pit, but personality aside he's basically exactly the same as him in their own game, having the same moves and playstyle makes perfect sense to the point it would be weird if Dark Pit got into the game and he wasn't a clone. Or a semi-clone at the very least.

At the same time, Dark Pit is a huge waste of a potentially great clone because of how much they held back on the changes. Other than just a few moves with slightly different properties, he plays exactly the same as Pit. But judging only by the clone choice, I think he's by far the best clone in this game, and I actually hope he returns in the next Smash game with his own twist to Pit's playstyle, or even some Luigification.

If you ask me, the best example of a good clone in the Smash series both in choice and execution, is Falco. Falco is not only from the same franchise as Fox, but he's a part of the same team. It's only logical that he uses the same equipment and even fighting style as Fox. But of course, he also has a different personality, and that's reflected in his moveset too. As a member of the Star Fox team, he fights a lot like Fox, but brings his own personal twist into the fighting style, and also has different movement speed and jumping height to further reflect that. It just makes sense.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

But what's kind of stupid, if you think about it, is how Dark Pit and Lucina get so much flak but Alph gets none, simply because Alph did receive his own icon on the CSS. In fact, Alph was going to be a clone, but then the team decided to do less work and keep him an alt. But to do more work and grant an alt a few more changes and their own icon on the CSS, they get bashed endlessly. It's stupid. They're really just extra characters that didn't replace anyone. Lucina even had many fans that wanted her in Smash, so now they can all be happy! Nobody asked for Dark Pit, but who cares? Lots of people have played as him anyway just for fun and his inclusion didn't sabatoge a dang thing. Dark Pit is LITERALLY a clone of Pit, so why are we throwing our arms up in the air about him being so similar to Pit? I tell you what, when the next Smash comes around and Dark Pit is gone, people will miss him. Be nice to clones. They never hurt you.

Consideirng the only Melee cuts that caused backlash in Brawl were Mewtwo and Roy and that Squirtle and Ivysaur's cuts didn't cause much of a backlash despite being unique, that is not guaranteed. Possible? Yes. Inevitable? Far from it.

 

[Deleted member]

But here's a thought: what if a character was introduced that was more of an amalgam clone? (Almost like Mii fighters...)
Just borrowing moves from multiple characters, instead of basically one?

 

[Khao]

But here's a thought: what if a character was introduced that was more of an amalgam clone? (Almost like Mii fighters...)
Just borrowing moves from multiple characters, instead of basically one?

I'm pretty sure that'd be a lot harder to develop than a regular clone.

Like, probably-having-to-make-all-animations-from-scratch hard.

I mean, I like the idea. But it would likely no longer be a last-minute character made because they don't have time for a unique newcomer.

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf is more or less that, I think.

He uses Fox as a base so most of his specials are similar to Fox but work differently, but he also has moves from other characters.

N-air is Sonic's N-air
D-Smash is Link's D-Smash
U-Smash is Sonic's U-air
D-air is Diddy's D-air
Dash attack is also something from Sonic, don't know what it is though.

This is what I mean:

At around 9:25.

Of course, he does have moves of his own, but I think he's the closest character we have to what you described.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I personally wish Mii fighters had worked more along this way. So you would maybe have 1 base Mii fighter to start with, but could then swap out any standard or special attack based on existing moves from other fighters. And then, if you could make the Mii fighters less chibi, it would have allowed for legitimate inclusions of other characters via the "mii fighter" route.
So for example with the Chrom outfit on a less chibi Mii, you could give him a mix of moves from other Fire Emblem characters for your own version of the character.
A Mii Daisy outfit could use some Peach moves but then maybe some more athletic ones from other fighters to be the perfect Daisy fighter.
Etc. etc.

This is what I want from Smash bros. eventually. Take the concepts of Mii fighters, custom outfits, custom moves and stat tweaking to the fullest potential to allow for anyone to create their dream fighter. It would also negate many requests for characters to be added in since people could do it themselves. *sigh* one day

 

[Koopaul]

Perhaps if every character got a clone and they weren't visible on the CSS (you activate them by pressing a button over a character) people wouldn't mind clones as much. I know I wouldn't.

 

[GalacticPetey]

That's not a clone. That's an alternate costume.

 

[shane3x]

True clones are non-sense. Semi-clones at least provide something to the game and of course they can become non-clones in their own right like Luigi and Wolf.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Perhaps if every character got a clone and they weren't visible on the CSS (you activate them by pressing a button over a character) people wouldn't mind clones as much. I know I wouldn't.

I'd still not care for it since they would have to spend extra time making new models for nothing more than an alternate costume. I give the exception to Mii Fighters since customization is their key gimmick. I just don't think every character needs an alternate costume or clone either. I can understand ones like Robin. Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager since the different genders had equal importance though.

 

[Jolt_91]

I don't really mind, as long they make sense, which is the case with the clones and semiclones. Except for Ganondorf, he needs a different moveset.

I also don't like that the "new clones" and dlc chars on the roster are at the bottom instead of being in the correct place with the rest of the crew.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really mind, as long they make sense, which is the case with the clones and semiclones. Except for Ganondorf, he needs a different moveset.

I also don't like that the "new clones" and dlc chars on the roster are at the bottom instead of being in the correct place with the rest of the crew.

Yes, that bugs me quite a bit. I'm hoping that once all dlc is finished, an update will rearrange the icons

 

[CrazyPerson]

I don't really mind, as long they make sense, which is the case with the clones and semiclones. Except for Ganondorf, he needs a different moveset.

I also don't like that the "new clones" and dlc chars on the roster are at the bottom instead of being in the correct place with the rest of the crew.

Yes... wish this was properly divided by series as it was in vanilla.

 

[n8han11]

The only clone I truly see as a problem is Ganondorf. His Falcondorf moveset should just be given to Black Shadow instead (At least he's from the same series as Falcon). That way, Ganondorf can get his own unique moveset, and Falcondorf fans still have their really strong moveset too.