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Cite sources

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Braydon

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Obviously sources are important, but is it always acceptable to ask for sources? I've been asked in the why is weed illegal thread to site sources for smoke causing lung cancer. I would consider this to fall well under common knowledge, and something you can assume the other person knows, but I was repeatedly derided for not citing a source that says that smoke inhalation harms your lungs and can cause lung cancer.

So I made this thread to ask the question, when is it legitimate to criticize for lack of sources, can you ask for a source on absolutely anything? Is it a legitimate criticism to say someone should have sources for something that falls under common knowledge? And if so what will stop people requesting sources indefinitely rather than acknowledging an argument.


Further more I'd like to ask what can be considered a legitimate source in a debate, I've seen multiple links to wikipedia, internet tabloids, and other sources I wouldn't consider to be reliable sources, or even considerably better than here say.

What counts as a legitimate source, particularly I want to ask if you're talking about science, should you link to studies, or is it acceptable to also link to news articles and the like, that don't always contain all the information?
 

Claire Diviner

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Hmmm. I'll bite...

Obviously sources are important, but is it always acceptable to ask for sources? I've been asked in the why is weed illegal thread to site sources for smoke causing lung cancer. I would consider this to fall well under common knowledge, and something you can assume the other person knows, but I was repeatedly derided for not citing a source that says that smoke inhalation harms your lungs and can cause lung cancer.
Well, it appears that you were citing a source for general smoke related to house fires, waste fires, etc. While it strengthens one's point in that regard, it did little to address the issue behind marijuana's legality.
So I made this thread to ask the question, when is it legitimate to criticize for lack of sources, can you ask for a source on absolutely anything?
You cannot ask a source for absolutely anything. If a debate is more philosophical, or deals with theories, then sources to solid data can be difficult to downright impossible.

Criticizing one for lack of sources stems from someone making an argument on something they say is factual. Whether the claim is a fact, not everyone will know this, and to get people to not only understand one's point, but even agree to it, having a source to back up one's claim as fact will strengthen an argument.

Is it a legitimate criticism to say someone should have sources for something that falls under common knowledge? And if so what will stop people requesting sources indefinitely rather than acknowledging an argument.
A debate is a game of counterpoints. In the case of "common knowledge", it could be subjective, since not everyone will know about it, even if it is supposed to be common. As an example, we all know that the world is billions of years old, yet there are literally those on social media, such as Facebook and Twitter who - no lie - believe the world to be 2015 years old.

The best thing one can do is post a source to show that one's point has weight to it. Even then, the other debater could counter your point with another source, and so it becomes a game of tug of war until someone has lost all viable arguments and/or sources, though this isn't necessarily the case in all debates, as a few sources are sometimes enough.

Further more I'd like to ask what can be considered a legitimate source in a debate, I've seen multiple links to wikipedia, internet tabloids, and other sources I wouldn't consider to be reliable sources, or even considerably better than here say.
Any source is better than here say. Just because one does not like a source should not mean the source is void by default. In the case of Wikipedia and internet news articles, many of them cite sources (usually at the bottom of the page), that way, the article itself will act as a bridge to links of other sources.

While it's advised not to rely heavily on Wikipedia due to its stigma of being able to be "edited in any way at any time" (which is something that is actually moderated anyway), it's still a legitimate enough source, especially if the Wiki article in question links to a variety of other references.

What counts as a legitimate source, particularly I want to ask if you're talking about science, should you link to studies, or is it acceptable to also link to news articles and the like, that don't always contain all the information?
As explained above, any article is fair game. Studies, news reports, so long as it helps to make one's point stronger, that's what matters. Obviously, one would want to keep away from biased or satirical studies and news articles, as they obviously either show heavy favoritism - disregarding all other claims to the contrary of their report (looking at you, Fox News) - or obvious sarcasm and satire, such as The Onion.
 
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Sehnsucht

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I would think that, in debate, nothing can be taken for granted, and all assumptions can (and perhaps even must) be questioned. Appeals to common sense and common knowledge are thus more tenuous, since maybe I don't (or didn't) know that smoking causes lung cancer (or any other proposition presented as "common knowledge).

I'd further say that sources are best used to support empirical claims -- that is, claims that involve hard data and facts, numbers and statistics, historical and/or scientific consensus, and so on. If I present an empirical claim, and you ask for a source (whether out of curiosity or skepticism or whatever else), then I should provide sources that demonstrate the actuality (or barring that, the probability) of my claims.

The issue, as you note, is what sources constitute as reliable, or credible. Firsthand sources would be papers, studies, and articles published in peer-reviewed literature. Though sometimes, such articles are hidden behind paywalls and the like. The next best thing, then, would be secondhand sources -- sources that relay or cover firsthand information. But in such a case, better to investigate such sources to ensure, to the best of your ability, that nothing has been corrupted or lost in translation or misrepresented. And this work multiplies as the order of separation increases ("thirdhand", etc.).

Verifying the biases of one's sources is also the preference. Hard facts are ideally impartial and objective, but one's sources may have spun the facts to suit their claims and agendas (whether knowingly or not). Similarly, verifying the methodology of studies and how people went about gathering information is a good idea, since again, there could be issues either accidental or deliberate.

Sources serve to support one's argument. It is the argument that one is meant to address, but if a claim's conclusions rests on the validity of a source, and that source is shown to be suspect and/or flawed, then the argument's integrity becomes compromised, if not outright invalidated.

As a result of all this, I think it's fine to request sources for empirical claims or topics, and also fine to question an argument's strength if there are perceived issues with the supporting sources. Also, if I present a source, and you find it questionable, I could, if it's the case, address your concerns and show that the source's reliability is merited.

Sources should not be required, however, for non-empirical claims -- claims that are solely logical or philosophical in foundation. You can debate the logical or epistemic foundation of an argument without invoking or requiring sources; empirical data is optional, and can be used to support or inform claims, but isn't necessary for such kinds of discourse (though the moment you do invoke sources, the rules discussed above begin to apply).

So that's my sense of sources, for what it's worth. Use sources to support empirical claims, vet your sources for biases and errors, ask for sources if you're skeptical or just for reference, provide sources upon request, question sources (and thereby the empirical aspect of an argument) if you find them dubious, defend your sources if you think allegations of dubiousness are misinformed, etc. etc.

It may take more work to sort out sources and citations in debates where empirical data are at the heart of the discussion. But taking care to use and approach sources effectively and reasonably would be in the interest of everyone involved.
 
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Braydon

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But if you allow people to request sources for anything, it can be used to filibuster, and distract from a debate. It can be used to postpone the conclusion indefinitely, by always asking another question.

Ideally every question would be answered but the reality is that a lot of people aren't willing to have a fair debate. Having no limit on what you allow people to ask for sources on allows then to indefinitely avoid arguments that go against them, and people will use this.

It's also a huge drag for the person who is being filibustered, you can't honestly expect anyone to be willing to go through a never ending tactic used to dodge the results of a debate.


What philosophically would make for an ideal debate is not necessarily the reality of what makes for the best way to debate.


You're method also mandates that we must always round down, to the most ignorant person, explaining everything to them, but there is always someone who won't be able to understand something, and it's a drag on intelligent people's discussion to have to be expected to cater to any level of ignorance, and it can also make a debate last indefinitely as new people come in.

Realistically I think you must put some of the responsibility on the person reading, to understand the argument, I can't be expected to have to prove everything to everyone irregardless of whether or not they are even willing to learn.

With your method if I don't want to spend the time addressing every little unreasonable question ever asked then my credibility suffers, then it's fair to try and discredit me for not addressing these questions. It's never ending and a distraction.
 

Claire Diviner

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But if you allow people to request sources for anything, it can be used to filibuster, and distract from a debate. It can be used to postpone the conclusion indefinitely, by always asking another question.
It's not really filibuster if your sources are to the point. Sometimes, all you need to do is simply cite the source and let them read it, letting said source answer for you. It doesn't distract from the debate, unless the request or the provided source derails the debate outright.

Also, I don't recall any debate in the Hall having any real conclusion, so if your goal is to conclude a debate as quickly as humanly possible, then I've some bad news for you...

Ideally every question would be answered but the reality is that a lot of people aren't willing to have a fair debate. Having no limit on what you allow people to ask for sources on allows then to indefinitely avoid arguments that go against them, and people will use this.
Define "fair debate" here. It seems that you imply that asking for sources involving empirical (as Sehnsucht puts it) claims is only unfair to those who simply do not feel like going through the trouble of proving their points, expecting or even hoping everyone accepts their argument at face value, and that does not a successful debate make.

Also, on the contrary to your "indefinitely avoid arguments" point, asking for sources actually encourages an argument. If you can back up your posts, therein lies ammo you can use to be in the right, forcing the one you're debating to have to try and find a better counterpoint to your own. I don't see how posting proof avoids arguments.

It's also a huge drag for the person who is being filibustered, you can't honestly expect anyone to be willing to go through a never ending tactic used to dodge the results of a debate.
What exactly do you mean? What results?
What philosophically would make for an ideal debate is not necessarily the reality of what makes for the best way to debate.

You're method also mandates that we must always round down, to the most ignorant person, explaining everything to them, but there is always someone who won't be able to understand something, and it's a drag on intelligent people's discussion to have to be expected to cater to any level of ignorance, and it can also make a debate last indefinitely as new people come in.

Realistically I think you must put some of the responsibility on the person reading, to understand the argument, I can't be expected to have to prove everything to everyone irregardless of whether or not they are even willing to learn.

With your method if I don't want to spend the time addressing every little unreasonable question ever asked then my credibility suffers, then it's fair to try and discredit me for not addressing these questions. It's never ending and a distraction.
This is why you have those who don't take you as seriously as you want them to. This kind of mindset implies that you're not willing to put in any effort into your arguments. You can't just assume what you post is something everyone will immediately agree with just because you think it's right, or because you believe it to be "common knowledge" known by the masses.

If you want your point to have validity, show them why they're valid in the first place with research. If you're debating on things, such as the supernatural, or on one's moral code of helping the poor, provided you're not stating an argument that would imply a solid statistic, citations wouldn't be needed, and only then would it be a clash of personal ideals, and I think that is the type of debate where you'll probably be at the most comfortable, but that's just what I am guessing from my observations.
 

Sehnsucht

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But if you allow people to request sources for anything, it can be used to filibuster, and distract from a debate. It can be used to postpone the conclusion indefinitely, by always asking another question.

Ideally every question would be answered but the reality is that a lot of people aren't willing to have a fair debate. Having no limit on what you allow people to ask for sources on allows then to indefinitely avoid arguments that go against them, and people will use this.

It's also a huge drag for the person who is being filibustered, you can't honestly expect anyone to be willing to go through a never ending tactic used to dodge the results of a debate.
That a person can be dishonest, obtuse, or pedantic in debate or in the use of sources is an issue whether one holds to a standard of source usage or not. The issue is the person's dishonesty/obsequiousness/etc., which should certainly be called out and addressed if suspected or observed. Deliberately and consistently stalling any progress or resolution in debate by asking for sources on every trivial detail undermines the spirit and practice of debate.

This doesn't necessarily entail that holding participants to a standard in the use of sources is misguided, or should be rejected due to the abuses of others. A standard in sourcing doesn't prevent abuses in the slightest. What it does do is provide participants with a structure to evaluate the strength of sources (and arguments or points that are contingent on them).

What is the distinction, you might ask, between earnest discussions on source validity (requests, critiques, defenses), and pedantic citational lollygagging? It may not always be clear-cut, but myself, I prefer to give my partners the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions, until I suspect their intent to be dubious.

My "method", as it were, is a standard that I seek to hold to***, even if no one else does. Because I see value in the things I discussed -- using sources for empirical claims, evaluating the merits of a given source, etc. etc. If my partners abuse debate conventions and citation pedantry and so forth, and debate is irreparably sullied, then at least I'll have stuck to my standard of citation usage. If, even after I apply such a standard in myself and try to hold others to it, and they don't or fail to, then I can say, so far as sources are concerned, that I was not at fault for the debate turning sour.

There is a limit on what people can ask sources for, and this limit is that only empirical claims require sources by necessity. If you hold people to this standard, and they fail to comply, then they become at fault (and you can proceed by informing them as such, deciding to no longer treat with such persons, or so on).

***Granted, I haven't delved much in DH threads that deal heavily with empirical topics, so I haven't applied my standards in any great extent. But that's both because A) I value holding to such standards on principle, and B) I don't like to enter discussions in which I suspect my knowledge to be insufficient, and I don't know much about much.

What philosophically would make for an ideal debate is not necessarily the reality of what makes for the best way to debate.

You're method also mandates that we must always round down, to the most ignorant person, explaining everything to them, but there is always someone who won't be able to understand something, and it's a drag on intelligent people's discussion to have to be expected to cater to any level of ignorance, and it can also make a debate last indefinitely as new people come in.

Realistically I think you must put some of the responsibility on the person reading, to understand the argument, I can't be expected to have to prove everything to everyone irregardless of whether or not they are even willing to learn.
Which is why you should only enter a debate if you are confident that you know what you're talking about, and/or have a case to make (and make it clear when you don't or can't). This is my approach, in any case.

So for a discussion on whether we should in fact have bicycle lanes, it would be expected that the participants have some knowledge on the subject, so as to make substantive and cogent points (and counterpoints). If a participant shows insufficient understanding or knowledge on the matter, then A) why are they even participating in the first place, and B) it would be better to inform them that, in your estimation, their knowledge is insufficient.

Perhaps you might helpfully point them to further resources or reading. Perhaps they'll take you up on that offer. Perhaps they'll dismiss you as some arrogant cudwad, trying to undermine them by alleging their ignorance. Then you might ask them to show that they do in fact possess savvy on the subject. Or walk away, if they are clearly belligerent and not interested in educating themselves. And so it goes.

If participants demonstrate that they are unwilling to be reasonable, even after attempts to maintain a proper standard of debate, then you don't have to treat with them. They might say "nyah nyah, I win!" as you walk away, but you'll know better.

With your method if I don't want to spend the time addressing every little unreasonable question ever asked then my credibility suffers, then it's fair to try and discredit me for not addressing these questions. It's never ending and a distraction.
If a question is unreasonable, why would you consider it seriously? If a question is unreasonable, would you not then say "this question is unreasonable, and here is why"?

Your credibility suffers if you are inconsistent in how you apply citations. If you do apply a standard consistently, but your partners don't, then it is their credibility that will suffer. They might deny it, or accuse you of dodging the question, or what have you. But the thing about debating online is that there is a transcript of what's been said. So anyone can peer into a thread and have access to a record of the debate, and see who it is that was credible, and who wasn't.

Besides, questioning credibility is something that comes later. First one addresses the arguments as presented. If no progress is made due to the suspicion of dishonest intention, then you can address such suspicions. If such suspicions failed to be addressed or resolved, then questioning of credibility may become warranted.

If someone tries to discredit you because you refuse to submit to their pedantry, then so be it. It will be on record that you didn't submit to their pedantry.

I approach debate by doing such things as granting the benefit of the doubt, trying to meet partners halfway, being transparent about what I know and don't, trying to ensure that I do understand another's argument on their terms, being charitable, and so on -- even if my partners do none of these things themselves. This doesn't mean one shouldn't try to reason with such uncharitable folks. But if, after all strategies have been exhausted, they remain unwilling to meet you halfway, then the only recourse left is to walk away. And I don't know about you, but I'm totally fine with that.

tl;dr: holding to a standard for citations in yourself and in others does precisely zero things to prevent abuse and exploitation of debate and source methodology by other parties. But then again, it was never meant to.
 
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If something is trivial and obvious, then finding a source should be similarly trivial. This isn't always the case, but let me put it to you this way - if my claim was "A tiny needle puncturing your skin is dangerous" and the proof I offered for my claim was referring to the puncture wounds from, say, a spear, it'd be clear I wasn't making my case very well. Yes, smoke is bad for your lungs. In what quantity, though? Quantities matter, and pointing out that the smoke from a fire is dangerous may have little to say about minor exposure to smoke from, say, a cigarette or joint. And of course, it's not a given. I did my homework, and there are in fact studies showing that marijuana at least should be carcinogenic and bad for your lungs. You didn't cite or reference those, and I'm not sure why you didn't.

But generally speaking, in terms of debate, "citation needed" is not a filibuster. You can never just assume "oh, this is common knowledge". If someone asks you for a citation that things are made up of atoms, you give them the wiki page. If someone asks you for transitional forms, you show them talkorigins. If someone asks you why you believe something you believe, just acting as though it's blatantly obvious does not get you anywhere. All it says to someone who doesn't already agree with you is "I can't explain to you why I hold my position".

And on a side note, when you refuse to give a citation on a contentious scientific or political issue, more specifically a contentious scientific or political issue that is entirely relevant to the topic of the thread where your debate opponent gave you a clearly defined way to demonstrate your position, it just makes you look unworthy of debate. And when you repeat those same claims again without citation later in the thread, it just makes you look like a ****. But then that's just my opinion.
 

Sucumbio

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Do you really want to know why I link parts of my posts? Because, this is the Internet, the greatest and most terrifying invention of the cold war, and I choose to play along. This site, lots of users. So I link stuff up just on the off chance someone on Earth reading my post is curious about what I said. It's vanity, perhaps but whatever, I don't care so long as 1 other person learned something.

Locked because eyesore (and this is all clearly explained in the Forum Rules sticky.)
 
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