Chozo Bible by isca(Nemy) Beta [Deleted]

[Litt]

Who the **** cares about commentators

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't know about you, Narpas, but the amount of stuff I know about Melee, at least, could fill a book. No cheat sheet could fit the sheer quantity of obscure info I've learned. Even the Cliff's Notes version would need to be pretty thoroughly indexed. Most people who play this game, really, know a lot more than could fit into a simple cheat sheet, and referring to that sheet would require all kinds of specialized knowledge in its own right. Much easier to find someone in the local community who knows a lot about the game and can talk about it intelligently, and is willing to study the game in their spare time to fill gaps in their knowledge.

 

[pooch182]

I don't know about you, Narpas, but the amount of stuff I know about Melee, at least, could fill a book. No cheat sheet could fit the sheer quantity of obscure info I've learned. Even the Cliff's Notes version would need to be pretty thoroughly indexed. Most people who play this game, really, know a lot more than could fit into a simple cheat sheet, and referring to that sheet would require all kinds of specialized knowledge in its own right. Much easier to find someone in the local community who knows a lot about the game and can talk about it intelligently, and is willing to study the game in their spare time to fill gaps in their knowledge.

That being said, I could very easily just highlight very important basics to have down as a commentator when this guide is all wrapped up. It's up to the commentator how much they would like to read, but it can't hurt to cut down to bare minimums if that's all they want to know.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I don't know about you, Narpas, but the amount of stuff I know about Melee, at least, could fill a book. No cheat sheet could fit the sheer quantity of obscure info I've learned. Even the Cliff's Notes version would need to be pretty thoroughly indexed. Most people who play this game, really, know a lot more than could fit into a simple cheat sheet, and referring to that sheet would require all kinds of specialized knowledge in its own right. Much easier to find someone in the local community who knows a lot about the game and can talk about it intelligently, and is willing to study the game in their spare time to fill gaps in their knowledge.

i think you're misunderstanding the purpose and briefness of a cheatsheet then =/

 

[ph00tbag]

Most commentators know the kind of quick and dirty that would be on that kind of cheat sheet.

It's not enough.

 

[Mean Green]

Here is the thing, a guide is there for instructional and guidance purposes, its not a strategy list. What new player should do when looking for direction is called experimentation, and observation. Observation can come from watching other samuses play, referencing a guide or this forum when they dont understand what is going on technically, and then applying what they learn to their own game. If you want to drastically improve your game, record a set of yours, and mark down every single time you got hit, then reason why you got hit, and how to avoid it, and then work on actively avoiding each of those things in the following matches you play. Of course you cant avoid everything, and trades are certainly good in some instances, but mark when they are good trades, and how you were able to make them happen as well, and think if they are repeatable or translatable against other players. That is true guidance, what he is making is a teachers handbook, which is ineffective at eliciting new thought from those learning from it, and does not promote growth as a player. If I copy everything a better player does, cool, I can do tech skill, but if I dont understand why they do what they do and where, it will never translate to other MUs, or opponents.

Love that post. I don't have a problem with the guide, since I'm sure at least someone will benefit from it. But everything you said is good. Unfortunately it takes a lot of typing, but that's exactly the kind of advice I wish was more prevalent everywhere.

 

[Mean Green]

But having a cheat sheet would be harder than trying to [beat] people who have been around and have learnt up a ton about the game.

It's [a cheat sheet is] not enough.

Something > nothing lol

 

[Narpas_sword]

Most commentators know the kind of quick and dirty that would be on that kind of cheat sheet.

It's not enough.

Oh god you Muppet. It's not for the ones that don't need it.

Hodor.

 

[ph00tbag]

You're the Muppet. Even the ones that don't "need it" will demonstrate some terrible gaps in knowledge. I can't be the only one to notice this.

 

[Narpas_sword]

and you can help fill those gaps with the cheat sheet in order to help create these fully knowledgeable commentators you're seeking....

synapse firing yet?

 

[Mean Green]

You're the Muppet. Even the ones that don't "need it" will demonstrate some terrible gaps in knowledge. I can't be the only one to notice this.

If you're just starting off competitively, why would you
1- be seriously trying to compete against people who 'can demonstrate terrible gaps in knowledge'? or
2- need a cheat sheet if you can regularly fight strong opponents?

People have to start somewhere. And there's nothing wrong with stumbling across a relatively amateur guide if you still learn anything from it. Why can't people just admit when they're wrong? The further you go into this argument the more ridiculous you make yourself look. I'm not judging or thinking less of you, I'm just trying to address the main point so people stop posting nonsense.

 

[ph00tbag]

and you can help fill those gaps with the cheat sheet in order to help create these fully knowledgeable commentators you're seeking....

synapse firing yet?

Are you ready for this argument to circle back around?

The amount of places those who supposedly understand the fundamental aspects of the game could potentially run into gaps in knowledge of the kind I'm talking about are so numerous that they couldn't fit on a so-called "cheat sheet."

I'm talking about knowing that Ganondorf's fsmash knocks upward, or that Yoshi actually has a spot-dodge... things like this that I've seen so called "top tier" commentators demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge about on-stream. These kinds of things can't be put on a cheat sheet because they require that you know the properties of all 26 characters' options. They can only be learned by devoted study of the game. How can you possibly think that kind of stuff could fit on a "cheat-sheet?"

 

[Narpas_sword]

Why in the hell would a Samus cheat sheet need ganons data?

 

[Mean Green]

Are you ready for this argument to circle back around?

The amount of places those who supposedly understand the fundamental aspects of the game could potentially run into gaps in knowledge of the kind I'm talking about are so numerous that they couldn't fit on a so-called "cheat sheet."

I'm talking about knowing that Ganondorf's fsmash knocks upward, or that Yoshi actually has a spot-dodge... things like this that I've seen so called "top tier" commentators demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge about on-stream. These kinds of things can't be put on a cheat sheet because they require that you know the properties of all 26 characters' options. They can only be learned by devoted study of the game. How can you possibly think that kind of stuff could fit on a "cheat-sheet?"

Dude I warned you already and you didn't care lol wow. What you're arguing about is MU-knowledge, when the guide is only for covering basic tactics. MU knowledge is important, but understanding the game in general is even more important.

@ Narpas_sword And he replied yet again. Just let him win lol

 

[ph00tbag]

Why in the hell would a Samus cheat sheet need ganons data?

It wouldn't, but since there are 25 other characters in this game, which people may or may not know how to discuss, you would need one such "cheat sheet" for every one of them, at which point, your suggestion of a cheat sheet becomes kinda silly in comparison to getting commentators to bother learning this stuff.

Why do I need to walk you through this logic like a child?

 

[Narpas_sword]

@ Narpas_sword And he replied yet again. Just let him win lol

Pretty much.

I'm never going to understand how someone will believe that no help is better than some help, and that they should just 'find people that already know' instead of teaching.

May as well leave it here before it does another lap.

 

[ph00tbag]

Now you're just mischaracterizing my point. I'm not saying don't provide help. I'm saying that if you're providing that help only when they sit down at the commentary desk with some pithy cheat sheet, you're providing some pretty terrible help, and you're going to have a lot more trouble than if you just contributed to a corpus they can study before they ever put on the headset. And if they don't want to study that corpus, don't let them sit down at the commentary desk, because they've clearly demonstrated they don't care about good commentary anyway.

I'm suggesting prophylaxis. You're suggesting a Band-Aid.

 

[pooch182]

Another edit of my guide is up on the GDoc, please help me out with anything I'm missing. If there is any blatant misinformation that you can correct and provide a source to prove said correction, it'd be much appreciated. Once 3.5 drops, I'll get to working on proper frame data and gifs to make the guide a bit prettier. But right now, you've gotta work with the raw words. https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Ip9jtcX5t__bBXfry5Ab22eoiO61O4-aUpX4Gr3m2A/edit?usp=sharing

 

[pooch182]

I have made a master copy of this guide, and although it is not complete, I am now opening up the GDoc to be edited by the public.

PLEASE DO NOT RUIN THIS GUIDE: I know it's only 9 pages right now, but this took a lot of my free-time, which is something I don't really get too often anymore. If you'd like to make an edit, please try to keep everything generalized and don't go into hypothetical specificity. Please remark your name somewhere on the guide near your edits, just so I know who to give proper credit to when finalizing and publishing this guide. There will be no use of the first or second person in this guide, as it is to remain objective and professional.

I'm more than willing to conduct Skype discussions in order for us to reach general consensuses on certain topics that can be covered in this guide. My Skype username is Pooch182, and I'm down for voice, video, or just text chat. Either way, I really want this to be the best guide on this site, and I'm sure we've got enough collective intelligence to make that happen, so long as we all get along and do this like adults.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Ip9jtcX5t__bBXfry5Ab22eoiO61O4-aUpX4Gr3m2A/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Litt]

I have made a master copy of this guide, and although it is not complete, I am now opening up the GDoc to be edited by the public.

PLEASE DO NOT RUIN THIS GUIDE: I know it's only 9 pages right now, but this took a lot of my free-time, which is something I don't really get too often anymore. If you'd like to make an edit, please try to keep everything generalized and don't go into hypothetical specificity. Please remark your name somewhere on the guide near your edits, just so I know who to give proper credit to when finalizing and publishing this guide. There will be no use of the first or second person in this guide, as it is to remain objective and professional.

I'm more than willing to conduct Skype discussions in order for us to reach general consensuses on certain topics that can be covered in this guide. My Skype username is Pooch182, and I'm down for voice, video, or just text chat. Either way, I really want this to be the best guide on this site, and I'm sure we've got enough collective intelligence to make that happen, so long as we all get along and do this like adults.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Ip9jtcX5t__bBXfry5Ab22eoiO61O4-aUpX4Gr3m2A/edit?usp=sharing

But being like children and making fun of everyone after Im right is the only thing that keeps me motivated enough to contribute :'(

 

[pooch182]

Barbie, you can still make comments on the page, which gives you free reign for all douchebaggery, and then just type on the main document when you want to make an actual change.

Edit: Also, I'm gonna assume you made that edit around 5 oclock today. Good info, dude. I'm really happy to see some solid contribution. When 3.5 drops, I'll get to work with Kaysick on frame data and hitboxes to go along with the stuff you posted.

 

[Litt]

Barbie, you can still make comments on the page, which gives you free reign for all douchebaggery, and then just type on the main document when you want to make an actual change.

Edit: Also, I'm gonna assume you made that edit around 5 oclock today. Good info, dude. I'm really happy to see some solid contribution. When 3.5 drops, I'll get to work with Kaysick on frame data and hitboxes to go along with the stuff you posted.

Hahha yeah, i got really blazed and was in the mood to actually contribute positively, most of the stuff is kinda spec knowledge but all of it was helpful

 

[Page Won]

This is hugely unappealing because of its length, but thats just for me, I'm sure a ton of other sami will appreciate it, but I shall continue to just update mine for a concise guide with the important parts stressed... aka the little things in the game that make samus viable, and good.

You think that's long? Have you seen that thread (I wouldn't call it a guide) that that one guy wrote? " The Specifics" or something like that...

 

[Litt]

You think that's long? Have you seen that thread (I wouldn't call it a guide) that that one guy wrote? " The Specifics" or something like that...

Yes... Smash Rookie who joined sept 29th... I think a compendium on what each move does, and all info about it, is not a guide but a manual... and it was my guide the little things, to info everyone of the spec knowledge that makes a huge difference in the little things in your game to make you and guide you to be a better play if you use the knowledge correctly.

 

[Litt]

Barbie, you can still make comments on the page, which gives you free reign for all douchebaggery, and then just type on the main document when you want to make an actual change.

Edit: Also, I'm gonna assume you made that edit around 5 oclock today. Good info, dude. I'm really happy to see some solid contribution. When 3.5 drops, I'll get to work with Kaysick on frame data and hitboxes to go along with the stuff you posted.

ALSO #Called it for bombs not going through shields anymore :'(

 

[Chevy]

I'm fairly certain a PMDT member told us on this forum that bombs weren't going through shield next update, like 5 months ago

 

[Litt]

I'm fairly certain a PMDT member told us on this forum that bombs weren't going through shield next update, like 5 months ago

They said they were going to try to get that fixed, it was never confirmed that it was being done or not for this release because it was tricky to design the bomb that detonated on hit, b/c it only worked by time detonation in brawl and would go through shields before explosion occurred

 

[Narpas_sword]

Them saying they'll try to fix it still totally trumps you 'calling it' =p

 

[Litt]

Them saying they'll try to fix it still totally trumps you 'calling it' =p

Well when I was editing that guide pooch put up, I corrected Chevy in that there was most likely not going to be the bomb past shield in 3.5 so called Chevy on that at the very least

 

[Chevy]

I never said that wavebomb grab was specifically good because bombs go through shields, it's still a good option.

 

[Litt]

I never said that wavebomb grab was specifically good because bombs go through shields, it's still a good option.

No it was an option you laid about about grabbing as a follow up to wavebombing, which was viable when the opponent was in hitstun in shield, but is no longer because they can act OoS during the wavebombing

 

[Chevy]

And if they react out of shield, you can punish with a couple different options after the bomb. It's one part of a good mix-up.

 

[Litt]

And if they react out of shield, you can punish with a couple different options after the bomb. It's one part of a good mix-up.

wavebomb into grab is not a good mixup by anymeans... :/

 

[Chevy]

Wavebomb->grounded pressure is fairly safe and quick. Bomb->dair approximately covers the intercept on wavebomb->grounded pressure. A safe option against both of these(especially dair) is just to stay in shield. Grab beats shielding.

 

[Litt]

Wavebomb->grounded pressure is fairly safe and quick. Bomb->dair approximately covers the intercept on wavebomb->grounded pressure. A safe option against both of these(especially dair) is just to stay in shield. Grab beats shielding.

Ummm yes its obvious grab beats shield... but here are the facts you are missing... when you do wavebomb, roughtly the time you are able to act after wavelanding back down... you can get grabbed yourself before grabbing the opponent, the dair after bomb on shield can be stopped by a nair OoS or simple a roll because the opponent is not in enough shield stun from the single bomb to be forced to stay in shield for the dair to hit as well, and even if the dair hits you are then open to being attack on your wave back down to the ground, (with the only exception if you fast fell the dair and spaces properly on sheild back into jab pressue.... Soooo no chevy you are quite incorrect about the viability of bombing on shield, its just most opponents are not familiar with dealing with that kind of pressure which does let you get away with... grabing after you wavebomb, dairing after the bomb on shield or any other variaiton :/

 

[Chevy]

Ummm yes its obvious grab beats shield... but here are the facts you are missing... when you do wavebomb, roughtly the time you are able to act after wavelanding back down... you can get grabbed yourself before grabbing the opponent

In which case, you get a free combo if you had decided to d-air.

the dair after bomb on shield can be stopped by a nair OoS or simple a roll

In which case a waveland punish is applicable.

because the opponent is not in enough shield stun from the single bomb to be forced to stay in shield for the dair to hit as well, and even if the dair hits you are then open to being attack on your wave back down to the ground, (with the only exception if you fast fell the dair and spaces properly on sheild back into jab pressue....

Most of the time the d-air hits they are still grounded->free combo, in other scenarios, you have bomb mix-ups and air-dodge->zair or just wavelanding to respond to their tech situation.

Soooo no chevy you are quite incorrect about the viability of bombing on shield, its just most opponents are not familiar with dealing with that kind of pressure which does let you get away with... grabing after you wavebomb, dairing after the bomb on shield or any other variaiton :/

I'm not claiming that this is some extraordinary option, but it is applicable in certain situations, shutting it down because you don't think it'll work on someone with perfect reaction time and knowledge of all of her options is absurd.

 

[Litt]

In which case, you get a free combo if you had decided to d-air. In which case a waveland punish is applicable. Most of the time the d-air hits they are still grounded->free combo, in other scenarios, you have bomb mix-ups and air-dodge->zair or just wavelanding to respond to their tech situation. I'm not claiming that this is some extraordinary option, but it is applicable in certain situations, shutting it down because you don't think it'll work on someone with perfect reaction time and knowledge of all of her options is absurd.

No what I am saying is that your options wont work against anyone that has more than adequate reaction time and knowledge of options... samus is the one applying the pressure, so that means... acting first. As soon as you bomb on their shield, if you dont immediatly wd back to the ground... you will just airdodge, meaning they see if you wd first and have ample time to react. As for the dair, it comes out pretty late, and can be caught with a nair OoS, as well as when you are hanging in the air above them, they can simply roll to escape any option you choose. All of these are just options after the fact which are very easy to react to, im not saying there isnt a use to them, I am giving everyone along with yourself a fair warning that they are neither guaranteed nor safe

 

[Chevy]

I never claimed they were either, I said it was a mix-up. And implied that it required a read to get off.

 

[Chevy]

After further testing, bombs deal 6 frames of shieldstun, since Samus can act immediately out of the explosion, that's +6 on shield. D-air comes out on frame 13, which is much faster then most high reaching OoS options, given the extra bomb stun. You will also generally react much faster, since you know ahead of time when you are going to be doing this input. Funnily enough, hitstun on bombs starts at 6 frames for every character in the roster, and begins to increase around 20%, so bomb on shields is equally positive at lower percents.

 

[pooch182]

Bomb on shield into dair is classic Darrell stuff. It's extremely good.

As far as frame data goes, I'm willing to put together a nice chart and ****, but I don't have a Wii as of right now. Should I make it a part of this guide, or should all frame data and hitboxes be a separate thread?