Charizard's faults and why I have trouble with them.

[J0A0B]

I may not be a toruney level pro, but I try my hardest to work out Charizard as professionally as possible. He's pretty much the character I use in 90% of my For Glory runs and my win ratio with him should be a bit above 60%.

Just today though, I fought this one player over ten times that beat me in most matches. Each time we fought, he would use a different character and he mastered them to unspeakable levels as if he was Zero (that guy seems to master a large number besides Diddy Kong). I had my share of victories aplenty against his Mario, Yoshi, Wario, G&W, and even Sheik, and that was a tough Sheik. But overall, I just couldn't deal with how annoyingly this guy could fight and it's really brought down my confidence in Charizard's viability.

From what I could gather from my experience, there are specific flaws within Charizard that my opponent could deem as easily exploitable. He definitely was capable of shielding any move I could make, especially Flare Blitz, which I refrained from overusing. So the first flaw I have with Charizard is his landing lag of course. My attempts to use the short hop N.air have not worked once against him as he could easily shield (or perfect shield) the impact and immediately grab me in an instance. I don't think even the auto-reset jab could have fixed this if I tried. Spacing with N.air is very specific.

A really big weakness of Charizard's though is his very low aerial mobility. I can guarantee that the opposing player abused his safe jumps and aerial attacks with all his picks, including Ganondorf and Bowser. He jumped so many times whether it be from falling, running after me, or when baiting. I'd willingly strike back in the air as well, but Charizard just can't compete with his low height. It's especially annoying when the opponent exploits repetitive use of short hop F.airs that are so quick and safe that my own F.air cannot clash in time and they're already capable of commencing ground attacks the moment they land with me still vulnerable in the air. Relying on jab provides no reach either and flamethrower can only work for so long and predictable.

The last issue I have would be the start-up of all Charizard's moves in general. Many opposing fighters are capable of grabbing me within milliseconds when they either chase me or I chase them. Charizard's throw on the other hand is only a few frames slower than most and despite his long grab range, the enemy is certain to successfully grab first when approaching. It's almost like an automatic for throws when Charizard's the victim. His ranged attacks aren't any better. Every time the enemy lands behind me with landing lag or strikes behind with a moderately unsafe attack, I retaliate with a down smash, only to miss the moment they dodge away. The tilt attacks are pretty much the same issue, minus the U.tilt, but that has a weak hitbox against grounded enemies.

All this reminding of how flawed Charizard can be placed me back to a state of disbelief. I have absolutely no idea how he can compete against anyone really good as long as they can rely on jumping safely and shielding with ease from slow attacks. Trust me when I say I've tried my hardest. There's just some weaknesses I doubt I'll ever overcome. If anyone here believes in any surefire methods of prevailing against the really difficult strategies, especially the quick F.air priorities, please share your pointers.

Characters I've struggled against: Bowser, Dedede, Ganondorf, Mario, Yoshi, Wario, Falco, Pit, Sheik, Fox.

 

[Swoops]

There's a lot here to digest. Sounds like you're having frustration with zard to say the least.

The most important thing I can say to begin this is to think differently. I know it sounds very general and easier said than done, but even trying the oddest things just to try them out can change match ups or at the very least give you ideas.

On shield safety, I think zard actually has one of the better spacing tools in NAir. But from what I see, people overuse the hell out of SH NAir. The problem is that the move lasts from frames 8-27, and the move will auto cancel with almost zero lag if you land after frame 31. If you connect a nair on shield at the middle of the move (like SH nair) you are vulnerable for as little as 25 frames, which can result in easy punishes.

I think most Zards underestimate spacing NAir during full hops and double jump so that the tail end of the move connects, leaving you with much less vulnerability. Not to mention being able to cross up a defending opponent. Spacing with NAir is definitely specific, but vital to Zard play. Also, make sure you identify an opponents shielding tendencies in order to harass the with flamethrower. That's some free safe damage in many cases.

Im not sure how to answer the second issue. Are you saying you have a tough time coming down vs a pursuing opponent? If that's the case, keep in mind that you have an additional jump opposed to the majority of the cast, even though your aerial speed isn't as great. This means you have an added layer of options, especially when you consider you can escape with a sideB, rock smash through something, or most importantly float back to the edge. Remember to stay creative, safe, and never predictable, and use all your options.

If you mean that you have trouble in general with aerial opponents in the neutral game, I can tie that issue in with your last issue. Try to take a pre-emptive approach to zoning. I.E defending certain spaces without too much commitment. Try to throw out a flamethrower if you get even a hint of them starting to approach from the ground level. The only option is for them to guess and go in high, which can lead to a nair/fair/upB for you. Try to remember that the option to reset yourself into a more ranged position is always available to you, and that you shouldn't often be trying to compete with their faster attacks at their ideal range, but rather make sure that they are unable to use those attacks where they want to use them.

I hope you found something useful out all that text xD

 

[ggamer77]

I too often find myself having to try my absolute hardest while my opponent isn't breaking much of a sweat (At least that's what it seems like.) and being able exploit Charizard's weaknesses pretty well. (Especially when trying to land.) Though I try to not to be predictable which usually works.

Anyway for the Nair problem, as Swoops said, you should try to learn to space opponents out when they shield it. Most of the time they go for a grab, and if you space the Nair correctly they are left wide open for a forward tilt or even f smash. Just try to use Charizard's range as much as possible.

 

[Davregis]

Charizard relies very, very heavily on his range and disjoints to keep people out. In rushdown matchups, jab/nair/fair seem to be king. Remember that you can just run away if you're approached and don't have a read going. Those rushup grabs can be very, very deadly regardless of character (and will get you even if your grab is faster!).

DSmash is super-slow for punishing as well, you really shouldn't use it for quick punishes and it really doesn't KO unless you tipper it in which case it's a great, early KO. Enemy in the air, UTilt will absolutely cancel anything above you while FAir will generally trade or disjoint far enough to win out.

Anyway, very good players will make you feel like the character sucks no matter who you're playing.

 

[J0A0B]

DSmash is super-slow for punishing as well, you really shouldn't use it for quick punishes and it really doesn't KO unless you tipper it in which case it's a great, early KO. Enemy in the air, UTilt will absolutely cancel anything above you while FAir will generally trade or disjoint far enough to win out.

Tried to rely on F.air, but I'm always countered by their own F.air. As for U.tilt, I'd use it, but the enemy is always attempting to fall to my side, usually as a cross-up. In fact, what am I supposed to do whenever I'm in victim of a cross-up? The D.smash is out of the question. Is it possible to quickly turn around while grabbing in an instant? I think I've seen it done. Does it take a lot of practice?

 

[charizardbro]

I hope it's alright if I go a little blow-by-blow. This is a lot for my to keep track of in my head. Hopefully this will be helpful to you. It all pretty much comes down to playing more defensively and waiting for your opponent to mess up.

From what I could gather from my experience, there are specific flaws within Charizard that my opponent could deem as easily exploitable. He definitely was capable of shielding any move I could make, especially Flare Blitz, which I refrained from overusing.

People talk about not overusing Flare Blitz but imho it's a relatively useless gimmick in a lot of matchups after the first game or two; it gets to the point where people who are unfamiliar with the matchup realize "I guess I should be ready to shield from 1/4-stage just in case..." fairly quickly and I find this especially true in For Glory. Nobody likes getting Flare Blitz'd. I recommend trying to heavily underuse it, if you use it at all, as an attacking option in longer sets.

My attempts to use the short hop N.air have not worked once against him as he could easily shield (or perfect shield) the impact and immediately grab me in an instance. I don't think even the auto-reset jab could have fixed this if I tried. Spacing with N.air is very specific.

I don't know if this is a problem with Charizard as much as it is a problem with Smash 4. Shieldstun is really, really low in Smash 4. If your Nair and jabs don't have fox-tier frame data (or name-a-character tier auto canceling) and you hit into someone's shield, let alone a perfect shield, you're probably going to get grabbed. I don't know how much more this applies to Charizard than it does to the rest of the cast. I wish we had average or median Nair landing lag data to compare it to. In any case, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a character whose aerial approach does not require tight spacing.

A really big weakness of Charizard's though is his very low aerial mobility... I can guarantee that the opposing player abused his safe jumps and aerial attacks with all his picks, including Ganondorf and Bowser. He jumped so many times whether it be from falling, running after me, or when baiting. I'd willingly strike back in the air as well...

If they want to empty hop or approach from neutral in the air in general, Charizard is not the character to be using to challenge their hops and aerials with aerials of your own. Charizard just doesn't have the frame data or range for it, like you said. But if you sit tight facing their most likely landing spot and jab/grab when they land, you'll probably have a little more luck. If possible, dash to their landing and then shield. The slide should tend to put you close enough to them for the punish more often if you are finding yourself out of range when they land. Charizard's grab range and jab range are the strengths you should play to more for opponents approaching in the air, not the iffy aerials. Shield the short hop Fairs and grab or jab.

For crossed up landings that put them out of range of Utilt, roll backwards and throw out some jabs. There are 14 frames between the lag from the roll and the lag before jab 1's hitbox is active where they could hit you but if you time it correctly, you should be intangible before they hit the ground due to the roll, lag while they are in landing/attacking lag, but strike first with your jabs because 14 frames just isn't that much compared to the lag on a laggy aerial and the average character's jab/tilt (depending on range). This is about the only thing our small roll is good for.

If you find yourself unable to land on stage, use your jumps to get to the ledge. Depending on the matchup, it is also possible to safely land on stage with a properly spaced Nair but I find grabbing ledge 10x easier to time, especially on For Glory when you have to account for online lag.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Tried to rely on F.air, but I'm always countered by their own F.air. As for U.tilt, I'd use it, but the enemy is always attempting to fall to my side, usually as a cross-up. In fact, what am I supposed to do whenever I'm in victim of a cross-up? The D.smash is out of the question. Is it possible to quickly turn around while grabbing in an instant? I think I've seen it done. Does it take a lot of practice?

it is possible just don't accidentally dash grab
Though u do have other options such as rolling behind them if you suspect the opponent is going to jab or try to grab u if u are shielding
Also remember that the only thing that can beat a shield is a grab and u can beat that with a sidestep

 

[Davregis]

Tried to rely on F.air, but I'm always countered by their own F.air. As for U.tilt, I'd use it, but the enemy is always attempting to fall to my side, usually as a cross-up. In fact, what am I supposed to do whenever I'm in victim of a cross-up? The D.smash is out of the question. Is it possible to quickly turn around while grabbing in an instant? I think I've seen it done. Does it take a lot of practice?

Rolling in this game is too fast to react to, so you need to have a read going if you want to punish a crossup. Absolutely nothing Charizard or many other characters do is safe on reaction to a roll, so the easiest thing to do is just dash forward! If you think you're a pro, USmash or turnaround jab are the answers. If Fair isn't working, either space it better, replace it with NAir, or just plain learn their hitboxes and yours! Unlike many characters, Charizard doesn't have many situations in which he needs to just give up damage, so learn what hits where.

Examples of general AA besides Fair are sh retreating nair or sh retreating flamethrower angled up. Situational AA in which you can smack them from an angle their hitbox doesn't cover is Utilt, USmash, UAir.

Risky AA is Fly, Rock Smash, or Blitz to tank their hit and punish, while BAir can be used on prediction given someone like Meta Knight who has terrible range.

 

[J0A0B]

After researching the few videos I had documented again, I can confirm that my biggest problem with my opponent is his repetitive options to retreat. In my fight against Mario, the plumber was running like crazy. I knew to jab when he tried to throw me and that worked. But for the majority of the match, he continuously ran after me and then retreated by dodge rolling or short hop attacking while moving backwards slightly. This made him very difficult to reach since he barely has any landing lag and strikes the moment I come near him reaching the ground. Other retreating attempts were fake-outs such as jumping a second time the moment he comes close from the air. When he was really close, he immediately shielded, knowing any attempt to dodge roll away could fall victim to my dash attack or throw.
The point is, this very agile and defensive strategy is clearly forcing me as Charizard to go for the attack and leave myself vulnerable via landing lag, endlag or even by my own shield stun. When an opponent knows to gain advantage through defense only and exploiting the other's offense, that is when I suffer the handicap that Charizard has to deal with. There has to be some way to overcome this safety strategy so I can change the opponent's mindset to be more offensive and thereby have Charizard turn the tables with his own counters. I don't know the proper method yet though and I doubt I ever will if the balance between speedy characters and heavyweights is that mismatched.

 

[C3CC]

I was going through a very, very similar situation not too many days ago and I can tell you, my friend...

Rock Smash is your friend.

The thing works like a freaking counter, I swear. If you land it well, you can end up dealing up to 30% damage in one shot. Besides, it really helps you when you can predict attacks coming from below, as you will receive the damage but won't be sent away, while the opponent will. That leaves an opening to attack.

I don't know if you know this, but I'll say it just in case: you can control the direction in which Flamethrower travels. You can tilt the control stick up and down and do what I call the Fire Shower, which can end up dealing up to 15% if done right, and leaves yet another opening for you to attack (Dash Attack is the best follow-up for this).

 

[charizardbro]

I'm gonna use quotes again. I don't mean anything by it; it just helps me think. Hopefully this is useful.

After researching the few videos I had documented again, I can confirm that my biggest problem with my opponent is his repetitive options to retreat.

Dashing into shield is your friend. This won't cover all of the things you listed but it's a pretty major thing to learn how to do and it should really be one of your go-to approach options with Charizard.

he continuously ran after me and then retreated by dodge rolling or short hop attacking while moving backwards slightly.

The former strategy is really predictable but also really hard to punish when you have laggy For Glory connection. Dashing at him into your shield would be the way to go though. If he goes rolls, you unshield and continue approaching. If he goes for an aerial, you shield it and punish the landing. Obviously, he will probably change his approach options if you do this but at least you won't be taking percent from something that you really should not be taking percent from.

If they retreat with an aerial it just means you have to be that much quicker with your punish on their landing or you need to start chasing them when they land.

Other retreating attempts were fake-outs such as jumping a second time the moment he comes close from the air.

A Mario without his second jump that is not near a ledge is a Mario that really, really wants to eat a Uair. Even if he goes for Dair to land on the stage with an active hitbox, you can Uair him out of it (our head is intangible during Uair) or just shield it and punish the lag. He has us beat in aerial mobility but if you start your jump right under him, you should be fine. I know that Uair/shield isn't exactly an option after you have already committed to an input before his second jump but you have to change up your own options to adapt to those of your opponent.

When he was really close, he immediately shielded, knowing any attempt to dodge roll away could fall victim to my dash attack or throw.

Nobody's getting through a shield without a shieldbreaking move or a grab so, again, not so much Charizard's problem as it is Smash 4's problem. Our moves are generally a little more punishable on shield because of the lag but this is the price you pay for being a heavy with so much early KO potential.

The point is, this very agile and defensive strategy is clearly forcing me as Charizard to go for the attack and leave myself vulnerable via landing lag, endlag or even by my own shield stun.

You don't have to leave yourself vulnerable if you shield while you approach. You also do not need to commit to an attack in order to approach. Charizard's strength is outranging once he's in close quarters and outranging once he's in the air. Just look at the first 15 seconds of Bloodcross's mouth watering combo video. The thing I'm talking about is the shield he puts up after approaching Rob from neutral the second time. Sure, Rob isn't playing defensively or forcing Bloodcross to approach but that's how you have to play to get in close without a projectile.

When an opponent knows to gain advantage through defense only and exploiting the other's offense, that is when I suffer the handicap that Charizard has to deal with.

Yea, Charizard is the one forced to approach in a lot of matchups but this mostly stems from Charizard's lack of a projectile, not Charizard's laggy moves. Charizard can stop people from playing defense once he gets close. You need to rely on your shield to get you close when you have no projectile.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

What you have just described is everything that makes Charizard have some pretty bad match ups.

Bowser is very similar to Charizard except Charizard can juggle characters much better... though it's hard to start the juggle against competent players. Unlike Bowser who is much safer since he's more of a one-hitter. On the other hand Charizard has better recovery and does have that one extra... short jump right?

Look, Charizard takes dedication. So be dedicated or get out.

 

[J0A0B]

Look, Charizard takes dedication. So be dedicated or get out.

Who says I'm not dedicated? 90% of my matches are with him and my playstyle is pretty much locked to his formats. And no need to be harsh, dude. No need to kick out a player for not being competitive enough.

On another note, the recent big list of advice seems to make sense. I do seem to have the bad habit of letting go of dash before shielding in time, I hate that instinct of mine. I do wish I could show footage of my battles in this case to give better example and show some good comebacks, but I don't know the requirements to upload WiiU game footage and I don't want to build a Youtube account just to show Smash Bros content. Twitch, maybe, but again, I don't know how to get the game footage from my WiiU to the Open Broadcast Software in my computer.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Who says I'm not dedicated? 90% of my matches are with him and my playstyle is pretty much locked to his formats. And no need to be harsh, dude. No need to kick out a player for not being competitive enough.

On another note, the recent big list of advice seems to make sense. I do seem to have the bad habit of letting go of dash before shielding in time, I hate that instinct of mine. I do wish I could show footage of my battles in this case to give better example and show some good comebacks, but I don't know the requirements to upload WiiU game footage and I don't want to build a Youtube account just to show Smash Bros content. Twitch, maybe, but again, I don't know how to get the game footage from my WiiU to the Open Broadcast Software in my computer.

Messing with you buddy. But yes I'd say the best thing to do is show your work, see where you might go wrong in each match, And where you can improve.

If / when you do, show 3 wins and 3 losses from different players and characters. That way the critiques can get a better idea of your habits.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Sounds like you're struggling a lot at playing charizard in neutral.

Honestly, that's just one of charizard's weaknesses. We don't have the best options in neutral compared to other characters (Taking dragon rush helps). But that doesn't mean we're helpless in it.

Warning: Following advice is part expereince part theorycraft. I just want to give you some ideas

My attempts to use the short hop N.air have not worked once against him as he could easily shield (or perfect shield) the impact and immediately grab me in an instance

Change up how you use Nair. It's such a versatile move, you don't have to restrain it to only shorthops.
Try coming at your opponent from above with nair. Hover above them then Fast Fall the nair and follow up into jab, grab, fair, dash attack, or whatver depending on what % they're at.

Depending on how your opponent reacts to you doing that you can mix things up.

Note: You may or may not have to Fast Fall depending on situation​

1. If they sit below you and hold shield, then you have multiple options to punish it

• Flamethrower is the safest option and can cover rolls backward. You can "poke" them through their sheild with the fire.
• FF into grab. You'll punish them if they continue holding shield
• Rocksmash. You can beat attacks out of shield and cover spotdodges
• Late Nair. Mix up your timing with the nair, make them guess when you're going to use it. This might lead to them holding shield from uncertainty. If they do that a lot then use some of the punishes above.

2. If they like to jump up and attack you you can

• Rocksmash. You'll armor through some attacks.
• Nair. Beats some areals
• FF airdodge. You'll be below them and can set up a juggle
• Up B. Risky, but can net you a K.O

3. If they use grounded moves vs you

• Fall Away from them rather than into them, then punish their endlag
• Areal flamethrower. Angle it down. Doesn't work if you're directly above them though
• Rocksmash. You can armor through some attacks
• Nair. Will beat out some attacks

You can also fall away from them and do nothing just to see what kind of options they'll pick.

Try doing empty shorthops. If they're the kind of player to shield every time you approach, then FF into grab or Flamethrower. See how they react and punish accordingly. Make them second guess when you're actually going to Nair them.


Okay enough of this wall of text about nair. I just wanted to give ya some ideas.

he continuously ran after me and then retreated by dodge rolling or short hop attacking while moving backwards slightly.

The easiest thing i do to beat that is to Jump Foward and Flamethrower. If they roll back the fire will catch them, If they do a retreating areal then (depending on spacing) either the fire will hit them or the situation will reset.

Try attacking where you think your enemy is going to be rather than where they are. Learning to read movements is tricky, and good players will try their best to make their movements as unpredictable as possible, but it's a necessary skill to have when playing against the kinds of players that you mentioned.

The point is, this very agile and defensive strategy is clearly forcing me as Charizard to go for the attack and leave myself vulnerable via landing lag, endlag or even by my own shield stun.

You're being too stationary. Try moving around a bit more. If he's able to do that to you, then he's probably got a good read on your movements. Some matches will require you to use a more slow and steady appraoch (Little Mac), But others (Yoshi, Mario, Luigi) require you to be a teensy bit more mobile. Use those empty short hops!

Also (This is harder to do online becasue of lag)
Try to get a feel for where your enemy's zone is. Imagine a bubble around their character and think to yourself "If i step inside this bubble I'm in danger.

If you aren't inside that bubble, then you aren't at any threat, so you don't have to feel pressured.
Agaisnt projectile users, you usually want to get them inside your zone bubble and keep them there.
It's another thing that takes a lot of practice, but I can't stress how much it helps to have it mastered.


(There are threads on this topic somewhere right?)


The last bit of advice i can give you would be to try mixing shield into your empty hops.
If they like to hit you when you empty hop towards them, then FF and shield. Then a whole world of OoS options opens up to ya.


Ooookay, Wall of text over. Hope I gave ya some ideas.

Peace~!

 

[J0A0B]

It happened again. I fight one guy online and he just pummels me with every character he can throw at me. I don't think I'll ever be able to face the world with the constant humiliation I receive from my own defeated Charizard play. This next guy pretty much played with anyone that can out jump me and teeter back and forth at the right moments like a mosquito I can never swat. Really sucks when all I have left to rely on approaching is to use Flare Blitz as they move away or dodge away after getting close. But that became so dangerous I lost the game whenever the shield was triggered.

I don't know what that guy's deal was, but he found some method to constantly gimp me to death while I'm in the MIDDLE of using Up-B/Fly. I'm KO'ed despite my super armor from that move. What gives?

I can't take it anymore. Without having actual experience with people who can literally explain as they demonstrate advanced techniques beside me, I'm just a lost cause. Even if this next patch does buff Charizard, I doubt I'll get any better. It didn't work after over 200 online fights and it won't work in the next. Sorry Charizard, I'll never drop ya, but I just don't feel I'm worthy to play along anymore.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

It happened again. I fight one guy online and he just pummels me with every character he can throw at me. I don't think I'll ever be able to face the world with the constant humiliation I receive from my own defeated Charizard play. This next guy pretty much played with anyone that can out jump me and teeter back and forth at the right moments like a mosquito I can never swat. Really sucks when all I have left to rely on approaching is to use Flare Blitz as they move away or dodge away after getting close. But that became so dangerous I lost the game whenever the shield was triggered.

I don't know what that guy's deal was, but he found some method to constantly gimp me to death while I'm in the MIDDLE of using Up-B/Fly. I'm KO'ed despite my super armor from that move. What gives?

I can't take it anymore. Without having actual experience with people who can literally explain as they demonstrate advanced techniques beside me, I'm just a lost cause. Even if this next patch does buff Charizard, I doubt I'll get any better. It didn't work after over 200 online fights and it won't work in the next. Sorry Charizard, I'll never drop ya, but I just don't feel I'm worthy to play along anymore.

Fun Fact:

Rising Backwards Nair will instantly nail airborne opponents with the sweetspot.

It's an effective way of dealing with jump happy opponents, and it's safe!



If they're constantly going for spikes, try jumping through them while doing an air dodge. It's a good mixup from your usual SA options.

Mix up how you recover.

You can recover low with UpB

Flare Blitz to the ledge

Flare blitz onstage


You can also bait the spike by Fast Falling, then punish them with an Up B

...just make sure you're close enough to the ledge to recover afterwards


If they get really greedy for the spike. Try flare blitzing AT them.
Punishing greed is such a satisfying feeling with Char.



Bair is a safe poke if done a FH's distance from the ground. If you enemy likes to dance around above you, try tossing a Bair at them, the range and disjoint make the move difficult to challenge. If they airdodge, you can Fast Fall and frame trap them with a Usmash, Utilt, Jab combo, FlareBlitz, ect. (this can be done with Nair and Fair too)

 

[J0A0B]

If they're constantly going for spikes, try jumping through them while doing an air dodge. It's a good mixup from your usual SA options.

Mix up how you recover.

You can recover low with UpB

Flare Blitz to the ledge

Flare blitz onstage


You can also bait the spike by Fast Falling, then punish them with an Up B

...just make sure you're close enough to the ledge to recover afterwards


If they get really greedy for the spike. Try flare blitzing AT them.
Punishing greed is such a satisfying feeling with Char.

It doesn't explain how I'm still getting SPIKED so easily. The opponent was falling off the ledge and striking with a B.air or N.air, etc. This was all effective in the middle of my Fly attack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Fly attack is supposed to have super armor when the attack is active on the first half, right? How does one break through that? It sounds impossible.

 

[Steeler]

It's not the first half, it's before he starts til after the first hit.

 

[Wolfen McGunz]

When I play Zard I do a lot of fake outs, as to remain unpredictable, I don't just use flamethrowers, but I use it when my opponent forward jumps as I evade it by back jumping; this always ends up throwing off any combos they were trying to orchestrate against me and putting more damage on them depending how deep they were in the line of fire.

I rarely use Flare Blitz, so as not to hurt myself or become predictable, but I do use it when they least expect it. I can't tell you when they don't expect it, you'll just have to feel that out for yourself - it's a judgement call.

Jabs are great to quickly get them off of you, so don't skimp out on those either.

 

[Meek Moths]

mayb you were experiencing input lag. happened to me once but i didnt want to leave so i kept getting bodied like 30 times in row but i didnt really care i only won once and it was surprisingly a zard ditto. really its impossible to win if you have input lag and your opponent is same skill level as you but no lag

 

[charizardbro]

It happened again. I fight one guy online and he just pummels me with every character he can throw at me. I don't think I'll ever be able to face the world with the constant humiliation I receive from my own defeated Charizard play. This next guy pretty much played with anyone that can out jump me and teeter back and forth at the right moments like a mosquito I can never swat. Really sucks when all I have left to rely on approaching is to use Flare Blitz as they move away or dodge away after getting close. But that became so dangerous I lost the game whenever the shield was triggered.

Don't get down on yourself, m8. FG is an odd one.

Getting out jumped is a pain. Charizard has ****e aerial mobility and our jumps don't get a whole lot of vertical height. You should be able to punish the landings by getting to their landing spot in time with Charizard's great dash speed. What do you mean by 'teeter'? If it was dashdancing, then that's just something you kind of have to learn to read or at the very least approach cautiously. Still not sure I'm picking up exactly what you're getting at though. Could you explain that a bit more?

I don't know what that guy's deal was, but he found some method to constantly gimp me to death while I'm in the MIDDLE of using Up-B/Fly. I'm KO'ed despite my super armor from that move. What gives?

If you're getting 'spiked' like getting meteor'd with a Dair (think about what Charizard's Dair does when it is sweetspotted; there's that nice sound and everything) then you just need to use Fly shortly before they use Dair since super armor is only active for frames 4-15. Which is to say, before the first hit of Fly until just before the second. For context, Fly is a 28 frame move so only about 40% of it is armored.

If you're getting stage spiked out of fly (the horror), then I applaud your opponents god-tier positioning and timing and advise you to work on three things: learn to walltech (hard as hell, especially with FG lag) so that you live the hit, learn how to ledgesnap with Flare Blitz (because what difference does that 5% damage make when you're at kill percent anyway) so that you can avoid that situation all together, and work on your Fly timing so that you ledgesnap during frames 4-15 of the move. The Fly frame range is overly exact but the point is just fly when you're a Charizard-length or so below the ledge so that you leave no opportunity for the opponent to hit you out of the move.

Also try to mix up when you use Fly if you find your opponents going for spikes often. This is a great option when your opponent is above you and you recover early so that you armor through their spike, get some damage on them with fly, and safely grab ledge after falling down a bit (recovering early puts Charizard a bit above the ledge). This isn't an option when you were hit too far offstage to recover early with Fly but in cases like these you'll want to do the Flare Blitz ledgesnap I was talking about earlier.

I can't take it anymore. Without having actual experience with people who can literally explain as they demonstrate advanced techniques beside me, I'm just a lost cause. Even if this next patch does buff Charizard, I doubt I'll get any better. It didn't work after over 200 online fights and it won't work in the next. Sorry Charizard, I'll never drop ya, but I just don't feel I'm worthy to play along anymore.

I don't think it's really fair to call yourself a lost cause as a Charizard player unless you can't seem to do any better with explanations of AT and not-so-AT (which, by the way, there isn't a whole lot of around here). I'm up at around 2000 total FG matches and I know my Charizard isn't as polished as it could be, granted that it's a whole hell of a lot better than it was when I started. Give yourself some time to figure it out. Charizard's got a learning curve just like every other character.

 

[J0A0B]

What do you mean by 'teeter'? If it was dashdancing, then that's just something you kind of have to learn to read or at the very least approach cautiously. Still not sure I'm picking up exactly what you're getting at though. Could you explain that a bit more?

No, not dashdancing. The opponent simply dodges away when he approaches and moves back and forth constantly when in the air. He basically follows after you when falling and then backs away the moment they're close before reaching the ground. I hate that opponents can control the trajectory of their aerial falling so easily to make me miss any aerial attacks I attempt at them.

If you're getting stage spiked out of fly (the horror), then I applaud your opponents god-tier positioning and timing and advise you to work on three things: learn to walltech (hard as hell, especially with FG lag) so that you live the hit, learn how to ledgesnap with Flare Blitz (because what difference does that 5% damage make when you're at kill percent anyway) so that you can avoid that situation all together, and work on your Fly timing so that you ledgesnap during frames 4-15 of the move. The Fly frame range is overly exact but the point is just fly when you're a Charizard-length or so below the ledge so that you leave no opportunity for the opponent to hit you out of the move.

I'd say that's exactly the problem. Stage Spiking. I never heard of wall teching before and ledgesnapping is hard to decipher. I really want to understand how to read my opponent when I'm grabbing the ledge though. A lot of enemies can simply climb up and throw the moment their invincibility is gone, but I can't mimic that. Is it because Charizard's throw is so slow or online lag? What can I do if I hit up or jump after grabbing the ledge that's safe from punishment? It just feels like Charizard gets extremely cornered when he's hanging on the ledge, but the opposite for everyone else.

 

[charizardbro]

No, not dashdancing. The opponent simply dodges away when he approaches and moves back and forth constantly when in the air. He basically follows after you when falling and then backs away the moment they're close before reaching the ground. I hate that opponents can control the trajectory of their aerial falling so easily to make me miss any aerial attacks I attempt at them.

This would be a bit easier to understand if you could upload a replay. So do you mean that they were dashing at you and then rolling backwards?

The retreating aerial attack thing can be pretty hard to deal with, yea. But I do think that Charizard has pretty good options to deal with it from the ground. I see you said you were unable to land aerial attacks of your own. You're going to want to shield retreating aerials and punish them with grabs or tilts when you use Charizard.

- Shield grabbing: This should be your go to option when countering retreating aerials. The opponent can space the aerials so that they are outside of the range of Charizard's standing grab but that is not easy because of Charizard's great grab range. If they do space it well but land with lag after the aerial, you should be able to get them with a dash grab after dropping shield. Still not enough range on the dash grab? Learn how to boost grab. The dash grab really should be enough though.

If they start jabbing/tilting you before you grab, drop shield and use Ftilt. They can probably shield this if they can jab you out of grab but it sets up a 50/50 for them. Do I shield or do I jab or do I spot dodge? If they shield, you need to be grabbing. If they jab, you need to be ftilting. If they spot dodge, you need to be waiting out the spot dodge and then punishing. So basically a mind game.

Alternatively, you could power shield the aerial and then do just about whatever you want for a punish because the shield drops quicker when you power shield. Hits also can't make you slide when you power shield. Power shielding is real hard with FG lag though.

I'd say that's exactly the problem. Stage Spiking. I never heard of wall teching before and ledgesnapping is hard to decipher. I really want to understand how to read my opponent when I'm grabbing the ledge though. A lot of enemies can simply climb up and throw the moment their invincibility is gone, but I can't mimic that. Is it because Charizard's throw is so slow or online lag? What can I do if I hit up or jump after grabbing the ledge that's safe from punishment? It just feels like Charizard gets extremely cornered when he's hanging on the ledge, but the opposite for everyone else.

I don't know how much (if any) tournament play you watch online but 9/10 times a wall tech happens, you'll hear a commentator say "nice tech" because they are really hard and usually game changing. Basically you press R when you're about to hit the wall and then you sort of lightly bounce off of it instead of getting stage spiked. Watching videos of it might help you understand it better though.

Ledgesnapping is just a fancy way of saying grabbing ledge. But it sounds more accurate to me in cases where the ledge cancels the rest of a move when you grab it (ex. using Fly even though you are only slightly below the ledge, causing you the grab the ledge without finishing the full Fly move).

I'm not sure what you mean by "climb up and throw." Are you talking about Charizard's grab?

But I do understand the next part about Charizard's ledge options. To start, you really have to mix up your ledge options because any character that gets read from the ledge is eating a sizable punish. I typically choose my ledge option depending on where my opponent is standing.

If they're really close to the ledge, a ledge roll is typically pretty safe. If they're about an f/d/utilt away from the ledge, I'll do a neutral get up and immediately shield or jump straight off the ledge. If they jump after me, I do a fast fall Nair which usually only loses out to the most disjointed of Uairs. If they don't chase my jump I either fast fall shield or fast fall jab/tilt depending on if I predict them to grab or use a tilt/jab of their own. I also sometimes fall with a rock smash if I can catch them waiting with their shield up.

Barring any very good escape option like ZSS's flip kick, there's not a whole lot any member of the cast can do after grabbing ledge that's completely safe though. Lacking stage control puts you in a compromised position. That's just how the game works.