Charizard Needs Buffs!

[Aposl]

In my humble opinion this character has a few kinks that could change him from fun to viable.

1.) Basic weakness is bad horizontal momentum. His best move to help buff this weakness is his glide attack, however this move can be punished on shield, and if you cancel the glide instead of using glide attack you have to hope your opponent does not have good reaction time in order for that mix up to work. Either Charizard needs to be able to do aerials out of glide, a faster cancel animation or the ability to l-cancel this move if it hits the ground in order to mix up the opponent legitimately.

2.) Lastly in a minor note, his grounded down b, although very cool looking, is very impractical, almost useless as a tool altogether.

Any thoughts in order to help make Charizard more viable? Am I just wrong? not sure let me hear what you think.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

He has a fantastic run speed. Try running. He also has a good wavedash.
Sounds like you're using glide wrong. Don't jump twice before using it. You can jump out of it. Viola! Aerials out of glide.

Down-B: You mean all his vertical launchers having an immediate followup is useless?

 

[JOE!]

you can't jump out of glide anymore, it uses your jumps

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

In my personal tier list, I put Charizard at the very bottom. Yeah, he needs just a few small buffs, but nothing major. You're not gonna beat a Marth wielding M2K, but I still think he's viable.

He needs better combo options and preferably a better air game in general.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I personally don't think Charizard needs buffs. I never feel like there's a matchup I can't win. Though hes got disadvantageous ones for sure.

I think what bothers me most is his weight class. He seems like hes got the perfect weight for everyone to combo him. Fox can drillshine > usmash, Falcon has a bunch of knee setups etc. Maybe I'm just ignorant but this is what I've gathered.

I'd much rather other characters get balanced/nerfed than a character like Charizard get buffed. His kit is good, while still having weaknesses.

In my humble opinion this character has a few kinks that could change him from fun to viable.

1.) Basic weakness is bad horizontal momentum. His best move to help buff this weakness is his glide attack, however this move can be punished on shield, and if you cancel the glide instead of using glide attack you have to hope your opponent does not have good reaction time in order for that mix up to work. Either Charizard needs to be able to do aerials out of glide, a faster cancel animation or the ability to l-cancel this move if it hits the ground in order to mix up the opponent legitimately.

2.) Lastly in a minor note, his grounded down b, although very cool looking, is very impractical, almost useless as a tool altogether.

Any thoughts in order to help make Charizard more viable? Am I just wrong? not sure let me hear what you think.

His Glide Attack can be canceled by pressing downB again. If you reverse the down-B he'll even turn around. This kind of helps your horizontal momentum issue as he can safely glide forward, and then retreat with a nair. This is something I've only learned recently soooo

For the second point I disagree. His grounded down-B is amazing for chasing people in the air. Rising nair, uair tipper kills, just depends on what character you're fighting. You most likely don't want to go directly under certain characters like Link (Unless you really wanna challenge dair) and instead you can opt to tipper nair for the kill.

 

[Aposl]

I have always done the reverse glide, it can still be punished on reaction if you go into the spacing where glide attack would connect. The grounded down b thing was minor because it can be canceled into down b again and if that was slightly buffed in any of the 3 ways i suggested it would allow charizard to actually apply shield pressure.

 

[NightShadow6]

Let him retain his jumps after his glide and everything would be right in the universe.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Make it so when you use down-B next to the opponent he auto-seismic tosses. MIX-UP

But seriously I would only call for small changes such as faster start-up/more active frames on moves like Dsmash. More frame advantage on fast fall fair, enough to make it safe if you can do it late. Luxuries that I feel other characters get with equal range/speed as Char.

I don't think he needs more movement options. Making down-B his go to mix-up option would be pretty linear, and you have to take into account his above average range and grab already. If you really want to use his down-B in such a fashion you can ledge cancel it pretty consistently with some practice.

 

[Aposl]

Im gonna mess around with more neutral game stuff. See how that goes!

 

[foxygrandpa]

he can keep distance and play a really strong combo and long range punish game. If he was to be buffed, I think it should be something minimal. There are characters worse than him that definitely need more attention.

 

[Oracle]

Better combo game? Bad horizontal momentum? Down b is useless? Are we even playing the same character?

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Right now it feels like most people I play against are extremely frustrated, especially by how ridiculously huge the nair is.

Charizard has alot of problems, and some MUs will prove to be basically unwinnable, but i'm quite happy with where charizard is!

 

[AstraEDM]

Honestly the only thing I could think of to change would be making his up-b easier to sweetspot+maybe shorter distance to balance that.

 

[jtm94]

I have a hard time landing the Up-B sweetspot, if there even is one?

But Zard is a TANK. This character is definitely viable, equally or more-so than the other large characters.

I took a Sheik fair at the edge of Poke Stadium 2 at 157% and with DI not only didn't get KOd, but recovered.... He's so heavy.

His dthrow is amazing, his nair does a lot, his dtilt is god tier, his jab is like a giant Sheik ftilt.

Not broken, but very solid imo for a big guy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I find that combo'ing into the Up-B sweetspot is the most natural thing - but YMMV I guess. Use Zard's bevy of launchers and superior ground mobility to get under them - UAir combos into it, or you could skip it and down Down-B -> Up-B if you knock them high enough.

 

[AstraEDM]

I find that combo'ing into the Up-B sweetspot is the most natural thing - but YMMV I guess. Use Zard's bevy of launchers and superior ground mobility to get under them - UAir combos into it, or you could skip it and down Down-B -> Up-B if you knock them high enough.

I actually meant sweet spotting his recovery. Is it even possible?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Indeed it is. You have to sweetspot the ledge if you're ever unfortunate to be caught under a stage like Battlefield or Lylat without jumps, facing away from the ledge and B-reversing is not an option for fear of ending up under the stage itself.

Oddly specific situation, I know, but you'd be surprised how often it comes up ... Point being, it can be sweetspotted. All recoveries can, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Mera Mera]

I wouldn't mind seeing less hitlag and/or endlag on L-canceled fair so it'd be a little safer on shield, but it's not needed. Zard is definitely solid.

I have to agree with Oracle in that his down B is VERY useful, and Zard's combo game is one of the best in smash. I think I know what you mean with his "horizontal momentum" being bad. He does have really bad horizontal mobility in the air, but he also has the 4th fastest run speed in the game. Stay close to the ground sharking with up smashes, anti-airing with dash canceled jab, and attacking from a safe distance with reverse Nair (RARed or otherwise) and you'll start to see how "slow" Zard really is...

As for dealing with being in the air, I recover high normally and reverse my glide cancel both to shift my momentum and to help go for a retreating reverse nair if need be. Really your goal when high (with the opponent low) is to land safely, not to actually hit them. I really don't recommend going for a glide attack outside of when the opponent is in the air unless you are desperate. You can combo into glair, and it can save you from offstage edge guards, but if you're trying to pressure/approach with glide/glair, you're probably playing him wrong.

If you really want to be aggressive with glair, you could land cancel -> edge cancel it either by angling the glide down or by doing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFH7iKAYPJQ
The latter seems too hard to do consistently to be practical, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I hate to be that guy, but charizard doesn't need any kind of buffs, he's pretty decent right now. If anything, I think it would be more reasonable to see a nerf than a buff. Most likely a size reduction, and a possible active frame decrease on nair, though nothing too extreme. I think a change like that would generally make the usage of nair more interesting. It would put more emphasis on the charizard spacing better, and gives the player more incentive to use different moves in situations, instead of opting for nair for most of their decisions.

 

[Blank Mauser]

If you really want to be aggressive with glair, you could land cancel -> edge cancel it either by angling the glide down or by doing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFH7iKAYPJQ
The latter seems too hard to do consistently to be practical, but maybe I'm wrong.

It seems to be quite practical on certain stages. Dreamland probably being the easiest to do it on. Start the glide with the same speed/motion you would a short hop double laser or double shine and you can do it on most other platform heights too.

A minor quality of life change I might like would be the ability to b-reverse grounded down-B. Though I guess some people might accidentally get it when just trying to fly backwards? Meh, the ability to immediately reverse down-B nair would be better anyways I think.

 

[Ragna22]

Charizard is one of my mains in PM, the idea is to keep your opponent in the air for as long as you can cause you can deal a lot of damage with Charizard in the air because of how good his air attacks are. On the ground I find using standard air after short hopping to be useful for getting in and side special for quick pokes, and if you get comfortable enough with his moveset, down air after short hopping is super useful for combo set ups.

I use flame thrower for edge guarding but I make sure to keep a certain distance from the edge when using it so that when I stop and my opponent comes back I can immediately force them back off with either a sde tilt or side special.