Charizard Nair Discussion: Flamewheel

[Kink-Link5]

Discuss Charizard's instantaneous move with a disjoint bigger than 1 and a half jigglypuffs here.

Breakdown of nair:

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The move is active from 4-22 in 2.1, and from 4-25 in 2.5

Also it's even more disjointed in 2.5 lololol

Also also the priority was tweaked so the flame hitbox will take priority over the tail hitbox now.
This was either mistaken or has been since changed back in 2.5b, looking at the move in BBox for 2.5b.
Clarification is needed: Do lower id hitboxes have more priority or higher ones?

Get your Leppa Berries ready, we're in for a long ride.

 

[metroid1117]

Good stuff Kink, thanks for doing this research! NAir is so good lol.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The new flub hitboxes seems to setup for combos at higher percents, especially into a fly nair, running U-smash, fair (If they hit in front), and Fly bair (Much tighter timing than fly Nair, but the payoff is worth it).

I still miss consistent upward knockback on the flame hit, but the even bigger range, new flubspots, priority put into the flame hitbox, and general utility of a giant move that provides excellent coverage pretty much make up for the loss of set-up ability.

 

[Shadic]

I still miss consistent upward knockback on the flame hit, but the even bigger range, new flubspots, priority put into the flame hitbox, and general utility of a giant move that provides excellent coverage pretty much make up for the loss of set-up ability.

Sounds like what we were telling you when the Zard writeup was posted.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The move could send outward through its entire animation and not lose its utility. The part that's missed is the set-up and airdodge/spacing insurance 2.1 wraparound provides.

Outward knockback is still strictly inferior for the move, but it doesn't make the move not good. I understand balancing is a part of character design, so the trade off makes sense.

 

[metroid1117]

By the way Kink, you can edit the thread title by going to Edit -> Go Advanced.

Do you know when the IASA frames start for NAir?

 

[Kink-Link5]

IASA seems to be on frame 42 for both iterations of the move. For some reason Bbox only reads "allow interupt" for the 2.1 build, but the same frame reads "SubRoutine7" in 2.5. I assume it is the same as IASA though.

So that's 20 frames after the last active frame in 2.1 and 17 after the last active frame in 2.5

I did a comparison of Jigglypuff doing two bairs in 2.1 before, and the combination of the wraparound and IASA made it quite a bit faster to cover space than her foot could. I can't remember what it was exactly at the moment.

 

[NightShadow6]

If you sourspot this move it can set up for a nice fair at around 60-80%.

Following up with downb is even more useful if you can get the sweetspot.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Flub-> Fly nair-> Any of glair, nair, fair, and bair are also possible at the proper percents and are extremely easy to hitconfirm. If they're at the right percent, you have plenty of time to read their DI and react accordingly with plenty of time to tell if it set up properly. Hence the easy to hitconfirm part.

 

[DFU!]

I love this move, can be used to pop people into a grab from all sorts of places around charizards body. Hitting people with the very end of the move is especially cool- it can hit people through a platfrom under charizard.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I love this move, can be used to pop people into a grab from all sorts of places around charizards body. Hitting people with the very end of the move is especially cool- it can hit people through a platfrom under charizard.

Try it out on Smashville. It's pretty hilarious.

 

[xKobayashi]

in matchups where charzard has trouble approaching (marth, fox, etc...) could dashing foward, then retreating RAR nair be his best/safest approaching option?

 

[MaxThunder]

that could workwith good spacing... but you could also just try to stay on the defensive until you get an opportunity to combo them off stge or just gett them out there so you can keep them away with nairs...

 

[xKobayashi]

sometimes you have to approach fox though... or he will just keep shooting lazers, but i definitely see what you mean

 

[Kink-Link5]

Approach Fox get nairplaned

Fox is an awful matchup no matter what you do in it.

On the question though. RAR Nair is not so much defensive as it is, hmm, good for challenging an opponent's attack. Dash dance -> retreating nair, FH nair, and the occasional flynair are a bit better for using the move defensively. Seriously though, the move can scoop up every character from underneath the Smashville platform, and you can proceed to jab x5-> U-smash or anything else you want really.

Jab x5 is the funniest thing to lead into though.

 

[MaxThunder]

if you're on the right stages then the fox will have a hard time lasering safely...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

I don't really think Nair is such a great defensive tool...
maybe i just suck at shffling or autocanceling it right, but i always have a huge opening after my nairs... (not counting retreating nairs)

 

[Kink-Link5]

After what kind of nairs Kuni? The ones used defensively?

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

I think i have to work with it some more.
do you guys think it'd be wise to stay defensive with nairs/tilts/jabs in one spot and force the opponent to run into you? Or will you more often than not get punished?
I'm thinking about playing zards defensive game a bit like Marth's (only nair instead of fair)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Eh. It's alright but you open yourself up to getting baited against like, any character with remotely decent mobility options. He's not exactly a keep out character so much as a "What are you going to do about this ****" one with his moves. They're made much more to challenge moves/options than to stuff them.

He sort of has similarity to Marth I guess, with a better run away game.

Like, what I do since I main nairball is to use the move to set up into all his other stuff, and keep his other moves primarily there for conditioning the opponent into DI'ing a certain way or another with moves. So you get them use to nair -> fly nair and then next time do nair -> delayed Fly side B or bair or whatever to **** up their DI. So like, pretend your Marth and Sheik with Jigglypuff air control but not as good at any of what they do individually.

 

[xKobayashi]

Approach Fox get nairplaned

Seriously though, the move can scoop up every character from underneath the Smashville platform, and you can proceed to jab x5-> U-smash or anything else you want really.

Jab x5 is the funniest thing to lead into though.

I did this to my friend today and his spectating brother literally spit out his drink,
Smashboards is amazing! <3 you Kink-Link

 

[Kink-Link5]

It almost makes me wonder why Smashville is a legal stage sometimes.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

jab x 5 wow good di

 

[MaxThunder]

Platform kinda makes jab follow you, though...

 

[Gimpyfish62]

jab x 5 wow good di

^ .

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wish all of my enemies would DI up against Charizard's Jab. More opportunities to nair.

 

[G13_Flux]

as a defensive option, i think nair is best done facing away from your opponent so that it is easier to time the hit with the later hit boxes and prevent yourself from being punished by endlag. this will also allow for quick follow ups. if i were to use the move otherwise i would use it as a challenge move (i like this term kink link, its a good way of describing it) against aerial opponents, since theres so few that even have a chance at beating this move. using a forward facing nair against a grounded opponent is just asking to be punished, and thats also when its range is at its lowest. you will land on the ground in very close proximity to them in this case.

i feel nair (because of its priortity in air) can actually have a good situational use in edge guarding: when an opponent is recovering from directly below the ledge, jump down and nair, the hitboxes will send them into the stage, doing one of two things: stage spiking, or sending them into a tech jump. if it stage spikes, then the job is done. if they tech jump, DJ and meteor smash them/heat wave them/bair them/you get the point.

edit: actually looking back on that idk why u wouldnt just meteor smash them to begin with. i think i was just trying to string out my ability to find another use for nair.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Disjointedness vs no disjoint on dair is a reason to use nair, but it's last few frames angle is dumb anyway. It's too low to set up for anything, but too high to actually gimp, especially when it's as telegraphed as it is and gives plenty of room to DI it up. Late hit Nair is more useful on stage just for the space control. Otherwise it's pretty useless. The space control is good utility for sure though.

 

[G13_Flux]

ive been able to set up with it at certain percents. u can follow it sometimes with a running upsmash or glide attack. but its not reliable accross the board.

on the note of charizards upsmash, i love that thing OOS. however smaller characters can duck under it. but its fast and it sets up pretty well for those who cant.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Take Charizard's U-smash to the Wing Attack thread. This is Flamewheel country.

 

[G13_Flux]

it was just a quick defensive note seeing as how we were talking about defensive uses for charizards nair. people have been much farther off topic in other threads than that was. plus theres only so much u can really discuss about a single move before bringing related moves or moves u can use in conjunction with it, which is why i brought up usmash in the first place.

anyways could anyone care to explain what the knockback angles on zards 2.1 sourspot hitboxes are? i understand that they are "sakurai angles" but smash wiki doesnt really give a good explanation. all i get out of it is that the angle changes with knockback.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The angle increases from 0 degrees to 45 degrees as its knockback rises. At low threshold knockback (ie ones that don't matter very much at all ever) the move sends at a low angle, and at most knockbacks worth mentioning, it sends at 45 degrees. It is the cover-all "neutral" knockback angle choice for many moves just to send at, and is a very flexible angle that allows combos if the hitbox is placed above the character, and carry-offs if it's placed to their side.

ssbwiki gives a decent explanation of how it works

"When hitting an aerial opponent in both Melee and Brawl, the angle is simply 45 at all times.

Against someone grounded, however, the angle depends on the amount of knockback. In Melee, the angle is 0 when the knockback is below 32 (0.96 launch speed), and is a 44 angle when 32.1 and above (0.963 LS). Between this extremely small range from 32 to 32.1 the angle transitions from 0 to 44. In Brawl, it is a 0 angle when it is below 60 (1.8 LS), and a 37 angle when it is 88 and higher (2.64 LS). Between 60 and 88 knockback, a far larger range compared to Melee's yet still relatively small, it quickly scales up from 0 to 37. As a point of reference, attacks will begin to induce tumble when the knockback is 80 or higher (2.4 LS), which in Brawl's case has an angle of around 27.68. "


The purpose of using it instead of just using a 45 degree angle has, I'm sure, a lot to do with allowing moves to be crouch canceled or otherwise interact with a grounded opponent in a way that keeps them grounded.

 

[G13_Flux]

ah ok. well it could possibly be useful for knocking someone offstage to set up for heatwave or a meteor smash if they started right on the edge. although if u un space a nair like that on an opponent its extremely unsafe. its probably best for charizard that then that they changed that. is there a restriction on what angles you can CC? ill do some testing when i get back home from skiing in two days if nobody else knows.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The knockback is far too low to send off stage. Instead, Sakurai Angles cause "flinches" at low knockbacks, and leave the opponent grounded, basically.

 

[G13_Flux]

ah ok. so would there be any advantage to them? seems like if its just a flinch then they could easily punish your attack. for some attacks, the change in aerial knockback could help at high percents on fastfallers maybe, but idk ill have to mess around with them more.

 

[iLink]

I was fairly successful in zoning out a Link with mostly nairs. I might have it uploaded.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Link is tough but yeah, like all of Zard's harder matchups, nair spacing and zoning can do wonders to even the playing field. I had the same experience playing Joker's and my buddy ShadowHydra's Link.

 

[tripwire]

I'm really starting to hate fighting Zard...that Nair move is just redunkulous.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I was fairly successful in zoning out a Link with mostly nairs. I might have it uploaded.

Did this ever get uploaded? Link is still a ridiculously challenging matchup for me just because of how well he can stand in place and prevent most approaches, before switching over into followup mode and continuously clipping Charizard's wings. Nair helps alleviate some specific threats but Link just seems to have other options to cover the weaknesses of his first set of them.

Might try more flamethrower against these clankable projectile users mixed in with nairs on boomerang/bombs.

 

[BrandX]

Nair is godlk, just saying. Pissed off my friend when I kept using it lol