Character with highest skill-cap?

[C0rvus]

Piggybacking off of this particularly with the creativity aspect in mind, I'm going to add to there as well. He's gotten a bad rep as a braindead special-spamming character but on higher level play, that's not true at all. He has unreliable smashes, relatively slowish normals, but his projectile game can get really creative. There's aspects of the Can to memorize (which way it's going to shoot, how many shots it has left, how each attack interacts with it), mobility options (like foxtrotting while shooting a can to bait shields), and just a lot of traps overall that can be set up. Not to mention there's 5 different gunmen each with unique properties (and can even serve as walls against other projectiles) and the projectiles he has can interact amongst themselves (using a gunman to shoot a can forward for instance).

Honestly, I'm interested in Duck Hunt but his reputation preceeds him in a way, as you said. He can't be as mindless as people say. There's no way he can get away with spamming projectiles and expect to win outside of laggy For Glory matches. He seems very dynamic and intricate but annoying to face. Someone to look out for for sure.

To answer the thread, Shulk's arts add some depth, but his moves still carry the same properties. Buster can add some setups at low percent that aren't possible with regular knockback. Robin can be unwieldy with his awkward sword moves, but Levin aerials and spell setups make him a complex character. Rosalina of course gets a mention but Luma's behavior being so uncontrollable at times holds her back. Still a very hard character to master.

Sonic and Diddy are super flowcharty, and honestly Ness is pretty straight forward.

 

[Jabejazz]

Please enlighten me, kind sirs, as to how Diddy is hard to play, let alone one of the characters with the highest skill cap?

 

[Balgorxz]

So far from what I've seen

High
Shulk - Pikachu
Medium
Everyone else
Low
Lucario - Diddy

 

[C0rvus]

So far from what I've seen
High
Shulk - Pikachu
Medium
Everyone else
Low
Lucario - Diddy

I wouldn't call Lucario braindead at all. His attacks require at least decent timing or spacing. He just rewards being hit, which makes no sense. You want to talk about low skill level? Let's toss Link's projectile spam or Marth counter spam onto the pile. However, I think Marth and Lucina actually need to space now, and with no real throw followups to speak of, they are not so straight forward at a higher level of play.

 

[lordvaati]

SHUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLK!!!

 

[ZelDan]

I have Shulk as a secondary and despite using him quite a bit I still feel like I have quite bit of adjusting to do to a few of his monado arts (defense, speed, jump).

SO i could certainly agree with him.

 

[ThaPhantom07]

Shulk and Pac Man

 

[|RK|]

So far from what I've seen
High
Shulk - Pikachu
Medium
Everyone else
Low
Lucario - Diddy

Obvious bias, but I believe that Lucario isn't nearly as simple to play as many people believe. He's like an inverse Little Mac in that new people can play other new people and win with him. But if you play against people that are even slightly good, you'll need to do a little better than that.

Playing Lucario requires understanding his properties at different percentages, and changing your combos and playstyle to match. In short, you need to understand your aura. Oh, your range is also absolute ****, so.

 

[erico9001]

Shulk's really high up there. His Monado Arts are a big part of it - his playstyle changes with each one. You need to know exactly what each one does. Furthermore, you need to know (or figure out) when and against who to use each art.

Added on top of this, Shulk is hard to learn without Monado Arts. With a few exceptions, most of his attacks have significant lag and start-up time. Spacing is key, and a misused move is very likely to lead to punishment.

 

[|RK|]

Shulk's really high up there. His Monado Arts are a big part of it - his playstyle changes with each one. You need to know exactly what each one does. Furthermore, you need to know (or figure out) when and against who to use each art.

Added on top of this, Shulk is hard to learn without Monado Arts. With a few exceptions, most of his attacks have significant lag and start-up time. Spacing is key, and a misused move is very likely to lead to punishment.

I have huge respect for the Monado arts. I can only imagine how they'll be used at the top levels - you could play mindgames solely based on choosing one art over another. Manipulate how your opponent plays.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Meta Knight and his combo's because you have to know for each hit where your opponent is going to go and one slip up could cost you a stock. And you actually have to try to win. Unlike say Bowser or Ganondorf who can kill you easy if you let them.

Rosalina's Luma management is also important.

Shulk's Monado Arts to change his abilities during battle.

 

[Ersijo]

Haven't played the game for long, but I actually think captain falcon has the potential to be a technical character. Reason is that he seems to have use of the advance movement options like fox Trott, perfect pivot and similar shenanigans. Also dash grab to footstool and close to ground uairs can be considered technical.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I wouldn't call Lucario braindead at all. His attacks require at least decent timing or spacing. He just rewards being hit, which makes no sense. You want to talk about low skill level? Let's toss Link's projectile spam or Marth counter spam onto the pile. However, I think Marth and Lucina actually need to space now, and with no real throw followups to speak of, they are not so straight forward at a higher level of play.

Well Lucario has counter spam too, so...

 

[thatoneguy1]

i'd have to say pikachu is up there, you have to have extremely good spacing and knowledge of QA cancles to move around effectively because pikachu has a really hard time KOing people.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Hardest to use: Shulk, Rosalina
Hard to use: Pac-man (Easy moves for newbies, but a whole other side to him in competitive), Pikachu, Ike
Kind of hard to use: MK, WFT, Kirby (Technical stuff), Sheik (Same as Pac-man), Villager
Average: Everyone else.

 

[David Viran]

Now this may be my bias but I think zero suit is definitely up there. Your spacing with her has to be almost perfect. You have to know what moves to shield grab and what not to. You have to be really good at mixups especially with her grab making sure to whiff it as little as possible.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I wouldn't call Lucario braindead at all. His attacks require at least decent timing or spacing. He just rewards being hit, which makes no sense. You want to talk about low skill level?

I think we can all obviously agree that every character requires training, practice, and knowledge to master. No one is saying a character is "braindead,." I agree there are some strategies that make some characters seem dumb, but the counter and projectile spams can be easily dealt with. It's the ones who use counter and projectiles smart that I fear. I also agree with what you said about Luke: I personally don't think he's easy to pick up at all. I found Mario, Bowser, and Lucina more intuitive, whereas Luke felt like making mistakes would end in trouble.

We should probably specify what makes a character "hard" to play: I was personally going with the criteria of "how easy is it to pick up and understand X character compared to the others?"

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't think anyone with a multi-varied special is...low skill cap.
Pacmans fruit is quite interesting, as is DhD's can.
If anything it's simple characters who may require really strong fundamentals of the game to do well (Ganon) but the cap isn't higher then other characters.

 

[busken]

mistake submitting post

 

[busken]

Some characters have specific traits that require the player to acknowledge to be successful

1. Unique character abilities

Some characters require you to know and acknowledge their unique abilities to be maximize their effectiveness. Shulk for exmaple has a nuetral b called the Monado Arts in which each stage changes his stats on the battlefield. It is up to the player to know when to use each art, and which moves best complement each art. A player with good knowledge of Shulk will witch stages depending on the percentage of their opponent. Shulk might start off the battle in buster or jump art to quickly string together combos, and apply pressure, and when they have reached a high percentage he may use Smash mode to maximize knock back and close out the stock. Knowing when to use each Monado art, which moves to use for each respective art, and using each art to adapt and punish your opponents play style is key to be successful with Shulk. The Monado blade and arts, define Shulk and if you are not using them at the right time, with the right moves while adapting to the opponent you will not be very successful. Having to understand each of your arts and moves easily make Shulk a character that requires a lot of practice and matchup acknowledgement. Mario on the other hand, doesn't switch forms to change his stats, nor does he have to know which moves require him to use efficiently use each art.

2. Knowing Beyond the Fundamentals

Some characters require you to know more then the basic fundamentals to be successful with. For example, Peach has down b called Turnip pluck in which she plucks a vegetable from the ground. Basic Fundamentals teach us to use items at the best time, either it be when the opponent is not expecting it or when they are stuck in an animation. However, Peach needs to know way more to be successful. Utilizing the turnip and knowing everything about it is essential to being successful with Peach. Peach needs the turnip to do various things such as approach, combo, protect, and kill. And with having to know all of this the peach player needs to know various ways to do these things. For example, they should know how to combo with the turnip to do damage an example would be the nair lock. They need to know how to kill with it like edge guarding. The turnip is key to mastering peach and not maximizing it's effectiveness will not make you very successful. This trait requires her to practice extensively using her turnips as she constantly relies on them, rather then Mario who doesn't constantly needs his fireballs to protect himself, combo, and get the kill.


3. Avoiding unfavorable situations

Most characters with bad recoveries suffer from this problem, they need to constantly avoid being somewhere on the field. Ganondorf for example, is dead if he is horizontally blown a good instance from the stage. This means that the Ganondorf player has to never be in this position. If a Pikachu player would constantly roll, they would be punished with a down smash and sent to the sides of the blastzone, but Pikachu can use skull bash and quick attack to get back unlike Ganondorf who can't do anything close to that. These restrictions make the Ganondorf player needing to know his matchups and how he will approach the opponents and things that he may do. This trait alone makes Ganondorf harder to be successful with because he has limited ways to getting back to the stage.

 

[Dagon97]

this really depends on whether on not sm4sh is your first smash game and if not how good were you in that previous sm4sh game.

Diddy has a huge learning curve for beginners and simple to veterans.

Little Mac has a high learning curve for charecters who have a long grab range and camp the ledge.

Shulk has enormous potential unlocking different combos and edgegaurds etc.

Falco only has a large learning curve for veteran Falco mains.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I would call Metaknight hard to master because I can't win with him for the love of it. But more honest, Shulk seems like a strong candidate for the highest skill cap. Switching stances in the heat of a battle must be hard.

 

[Lilfut]

Shulk and Ness. Possibly Bowser Jr., given all the options he has.

 

[phoenixairs]

Mentally demanding (tracking character state):
: Luma placement, could lead to amazing plays in the future


Technically challenging:
attacking from 6 billion angles at once like Yoda

I feel like (Monado arts), (durability mechanic / thunder levels), and (turnip / float use) take a while to master, but the OP is asking about character potential, not learning curve.

 

[kj22]

Marthhhh

Because who rewards spacing better then he?

Don't tell me you have perfect spacing ;P

 

[Ampetrix]

Might be a tad biased here, but I have to say Olimar has a rather high skill cap.

His tilts are straight forward, but his smashes, aerials and specials have a lot of underlying elements due to pikmin.

Actually, pikmin can be sort of comparable to Shulk's monado arts, but unlike Arts, each pikmin serves a different purpose for each situation to IMPROVE Olimar's camping abilities.

So basically one has to master Pikmin management to fully use Olimar at his fullest.
Here are some stuff to consider:

KILL POWER - This goes to smashes or aerials. The difference between a purple and white is huge. Olimar mostly gets kills with a purple, red, or blue and rarely with a yellow or white.
RANGE - Sort of the inverse of kill power. White has HUGE range, a very wide smash for a small character I have to say. Purple on the other hand is a bit short, but that's like normal smash range anyway, if not just a tiny bit less. Knowing your range improves spacing.
PLUCKING ORDER - Absolutely essential. Knowing which pikmin to pluck out or which one to prioritize so you can adapt to which character you're fighting. I.e having whites as throwing fodder and really accurate against huge enemies, while purple can interrupt rush down characters and as a keep away tool. Olimar has to pluck, a lot.
KNOCKBACK - DIfferent pikmin have different knockbacks. White aerials barely do any, and purple flings enemies away.
PIKMIN THROW - The angles. I already mentioned Purple's purpose for throwing. White's fast and with huge damage, while blue, yellow, and red have varying throwing degrees to cater how the opponent approaches.
PUMMELS AND THROWS - Blue and Purple makes Olimar have a kill throw, while White has the strongest pummel.
GLITCHY PIKMIN AND WHISTLING - Pikmin are still glitchy, or should I say have awful AI. Whistling goes to using which pikmin is next. Again, Olimar has to whistle, a lot, making prioritizing tons harder.

Of course this stuff can be easily memorized, but implementing them in the heat of the battle is hard. You know, because you could've prevented a comeback when you used a purple against a white side smash against a lucario(tends to happen to me, A LOT)

 

[Darklink401]

As this is based not on which character is hard to use or not, but rather, which character will have the biggest potential when the game develops more, it's pretty easy to see.

I'd say Villager and Rosalina.

Luma is deadly. She's key to Rosalina's development.

As for Villager...call me biased, but Villager has the most useful and versatile moveset in the game. Not to mention one of the best projectiles, best recovery, and POCKET.


I'm hesitant to name Shulk, simply because I've faced a lot of Shulks, and the ONLY issues I have against Shulk are his f*cking laser sword, I always misjudge the distance.

People will get used to it, though the monado arts themselves DO keeping Shulk versatile so perhaps he would have a very high skill cap.

 

[Dark.Pch]

@ Dark.Pch can agree with me that Peach has the highest skill cap as she is the most technical character in the game. You need to master and know all of her techniques to be successful such as floating, edge guarding, spacing, approach, turnips, and all of her aerial attacks. The amount of time, patience, and knowledge needed to master this character easily makes her have one of the highest learning curves in the game.

Pretty much this. Her netural game is seriously a hard one to get down. Without it, characters can just go in throwing out attacks and hit you for free. Also along with good timing and spacing on auto cancel moves or you can get easily get punished.

 

[Camalange]

Anyone that claims Sonic is easy to use clearly doesn't know anything about him outside the ones they've lost to on For Glory because they can't handle being blue balled.

The amount of shield cancels, jump cancels, and other spin nonsense that character has is absurd. This isn't even including understanding how they work, when to use each one, etc.

I agree that Peach is also very much so in this category... Since always. Shulk also seems to have a lot going on in his arsenal.

 

[Darklink401]

Anyone that claims Sonic is easy to use clearly doesn't know anything about him outside the ones they've lost to on For Glory because they can't handle being blue balled.

The amount of shield cancels, jump cancels, and other spin nonsense that character has is absurd. This isn't even including understanding how they work, when to use each one, etc.

I agree that Peach is also very much so in this category.

Sonic is great.

He IS easy to use, but he takes hard work to master.

Like Ike.

Except, you know

Ike isn't as good as Sonic...

 

[Camalange]

Sonic is great.

He IS easy to use, but he takes hard work to master.

Like Ike.

Except, you know

Ike isn't as good as Sonic...

Sonic's definitely been buffed this time around, but he still suffers from very similar shortcomings that he did in Brawl. Biggest buff he has is in his KO potential and shield pressure, but his approach options actually got worse with the removal of aerial spin charge shield cancel and the added lag on Bair (RIP SHFF Bair). His landing options suck too because of that, and the increased autocancel distance on dair.

The easier KO set-ups make him a little more beginner friendly, I'll admit, but yes, it takes a lot of dedication to actually understand and utilize all of his options. Much more viable this time around which I'm grateful for as well.

 

[Darklink401]

Sonic's definitely been buffed this time around, but he still suffers from very similar shortcomings that he did in Brawl. Biggest buff he has is in his KO potential and shield pressure, but his approach options actually got worse with the removal of aerial spin charge shield cancel and the added lag on Bair (RIP SHFF Bair). His landing options suck too because of that, and the increased autocancel distance on dair.

The easier KO set-ups make him a little more beginner friendly, I'll admit, but yes, it takes a lot of dedication to actually understand and utilize all of his options. Much more viable this time around which I'm grateful for as well.

Honestly, and no pun intended, good Sonics always take me for a spin with their spindashes, when they bouce, then upair, then uB and upair again

It's hard to take Sonic's pace away XP

 

[Myran]

I'd say Olimar has a fairly decent skill cap. Playing as or against an Olimar who knows what Pikmin to use for each scenario is a whole other ball park than one who doesn't. Possibilities for combos and increased damage output go up quite considerably with proper Pikmin management.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

i think DHD is tricky to use because of the set ups. i love that character and i think hes going to be top 10 the entire lifetime of the game. as for the people who say Diddy is hard i havent played smash in 3 years and i come back and i feel Diddy is very easy to pick up and be effective. his throw game is fantastic, you dont even have to use bananaas wit him to be effective. his rushdown is so effective and good.

 

[RESET Vao]

Ganondorf.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

I think it's impossible to say which character has the highest skill cap. Simple characters take just as much skill as complex characters because they have fewer tools at their disposal. This forces the player to think less about what moves are best for the situation and more about the hardest part about smash: reading your opponent. If it's harder to win with certain characters doesn't that mean they require more skill to win and thus have a higher skill cap? Is there even such thing as a skill cap?

 

[mimgrim]

I'm surprised by the lack of Palutena being mentioned here.

Also surprised by the 0 mention of Falco.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm surprised by the lack of Palutena being mentioned here.

Also surprised by the 0 mention of Falco.

Maybe it really is time for Falco to start Star Falco and become more of an individual instead of Star Fox's literal wingman.

Fox isn't spammy especially in Melee where he dropped like a rock in the air. Sure, you can spam his Up Smash, but that's just it. Up Smash. You're going to need more than that to fight especially against higher level CPUs and people.

Back on Falco, his game plan is much more different in this game which is the same thing for Meta Knight. I can't say much about "skill caps", but you can't spam moves with either of them or most of the cast and get away with it.

 

[RESET Vao]

To me Falco just seems nerfed to a state of being horrendous. I tried a few of the things I would do on Falco in Brawl, saw the state of them and recoiled in horror. Perhaps I'm missing something but he seems really unplayable to me.

Perhaps winning with that could be the highest skill required - that or he has some decent tools that I didn't bother to notice.

 

[mimgrim]

Fox isn't spammy especially in Melee where he dropped like a rock in the air. Sure, you can spam his Up Smash, but that's just it. Up Smash. You're going to need more than that to fight especially against higher level CPUs and people.

Lasers. Shine.

Your argument for him not being spammy in Melee is destroyed. :L