Character with best punish game?

[sheikpnch]

which character do you believe has the best punish game and why?

 

[-ACE-]

Climbers. Wobble.

Then Puff... Rest.

You may have been looking for the best character for stringing together combos but that is the real answer regarding effectiveness of taking stocks imo.

 

[Sycorax]

There is no way it's not Sheik. And he punish game is the strongest across the whole cast whereas some other characters with "strong punish games" only really work well against some characters.

 

[-ACE-]

Wobbling and rest are equal opportunity stock destroyers.

Ganon can cg the majority of the cast into aerial, and into death versus Fox and Falco. He has other traps and combos that make him a better candidate than sheik imho, strictly regarding guaranteed, top level punish game.

 

[Sycorax]

Wobbling and rest are equal opportunity stock destroyers.

Ganon can cg the majority of the cast into aerial, and into death versus Fox and Falco. He has other traps and combos that make him a better candidate than sheik imho, strictly regarding guaranteed, top level punish game.

If we're not considering how hard it is to start the punish then wobbling definitely makes ICs top of the list. Ganon jumps up a bunch too. His chaingrab on spacies isn't guaranteed really since it requires guessing at a human level.

It takes Sheik 1 good grab to take a stock from Fox, Falco, and Falcon, as well as all the characters she can chaingrab. It takes her 2 grabs average. Her punish game on Marth's weight/floatie class is pretty nasty too.

 

[-ACE-]

If we're not considering how hard it is to start the punish then wobbling definitely makes ICs top of the list. Ganon jumps up a bunch too. His chaingrab on spacies isn't guaranteed really since it requires guessing at a human level.

It takes Sheik 1 good grab to take a stock from Fox, Falco, and Falcon, as well as all the characters she can chaingrab. It takes her 2 grabs average. Her punish game on Marth's weight/floatie class is pretty nasty too.

It's only guessing until about 50-55%, reactable beyond that. On characters that aren't fastfallers, sheik doesn't have many huge combos. Ganon is better. And no, we aren't talking about ease of starting the punish, that's more or less neutral game. Ganon's stomp into aerial is more percent than most of sheiks combos.

Chaingrabbable Characters:

Bowser --------- (4) ---- 0-72
Yoshi ------------ (2) ---- 0-36 (30+ make sure you grab his eyes before he spins around)
DK ---------------- (4) ---- 21-69
Ganon ---------- (3) ---- 0-67
Falco ------------- (5) --- 12-Death (250+)
Fox --------------- (5+) - 34-Death (250)
Ness ------------- (3) ---- 0-18 (Higher if they don't airdodge. Use dash grab for its duration)
Sheik ------------ (1) ---- 0-90 (80-90 is very tricky due to Sheik's skinny legs)
Link -------------- (3) ---- 0-74
Y Link ----------- (1) ---- 0-72 (Legs ftw)
Pichu ------------ (2) ---- 0-54 (Thank his bigass head for this one)
Pikachu --------- (1) ---- 0-37 (His tumble animation works very much in his favor to escape)
G&W ------------- (2) ---- 0-28
Marth ----------- (4) ---- 0-15
Roy -------------- (3) ---- 0-91 (Hooray legs!)

 

[Sycorax]

You're naive of the power of Shiek's punish game. I can't really rigorously support that claim though since we're arguing on a basis of gut feel.

 

[-ACE-]

You're naive of the power of Shiek's punish game. I can't really rigorously support that claim though since we're arguing on a basis of gut feel.

I'M naive? LOL. You're the one saying sheiks punish game is all around better than wobbling and rest. Then you say Ganon's chaingrab on spacies is guesswork. Of all people, a Ganon main that's played since 2005 should understand that sheiks punish game is quite effective, lmao. Do you think I haven't seen m2k, dfox, plup, swedish, shroomed, or any other sheik 0-death a fastfaller? Tope invented that **** 10 years ago! We're talking strictly punish game vs the entire cast. I don't think you understand the question.

 

[iAmMatt]

1.) IC's because wobble is unpunishable.
2.) Jiggs, rest is 90% of the time an instakill, but can still be punished if the opponent does not die off the top.
3.) Peach. DADS.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How do you define "best" when it comes to the punish game? For me, it's a combination of how many moves a character has that lead into a punish, how easy it is to get openings with those moves, and how hard the punishes are. I think it will either be Fox, Sheik, ICs, or Puff based on this criteria and what you value more in the punish game.

Also, I just want to point out that Magus's chaingrabbing data for Ganon only shows what percents it is possible at. There is no complete data on whether it is reactable at any percent. ACE and some Ganons claim it is, from experience but there is no frame data out there to back that up.

 

[-ACE-]

Only Fox/falco under 50ish isn't reactable, this is fact. Every other cg for Ganon is. Pretty strange to think otherwise unless you've never practiced.

If we're talking punish game only, I see it as the biggest punish a character could inflict on an opponent given an achievable opening (like a broken shield, but not counting fox laser or Mario cape into punish). I don't see a characters "punish game" being better because they have more openings, I see the ability to get punishes as a different set of abilities, as it heavily incorporates neutral game. You start to stray from the question "which character has the best punish game?" and get closer to the question "which character is better?".

 

[Dolla Pills]

I think Falcon is up there too

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Only Fox/falco under 50ish isn't reactable, this is fact. Every other cg for Ganon is. Pretty strange to think otherwise unless you've never practiced.

I'm strictly talking fox/falco. I would like to believe it's reactable, but that needs to be proved. What I noticed from practicing and doing my own research on the chaingrab was that as the percent rises, the latest frame you can react at to cover everything doesn't go up by much. I know for a fact that it goes from 18 at 40 to 20 by 78. It actually dips to 17 in the 40s when you first have to back dash jc grab. Anyway, these 18 frames include when you're given a visual cue. From what I saw, it usually takes about 8-10 frames to be able to clearly see DI. That leaves you with a 10-12 frame reaction window, which is about 160 to 199 ms window. And when you factor in it's choice reaction time, which is even harder, it looks either humanly impossible or you'd have to be one of the fastest people alive to react to everything with consistency. All I'm saying is it is less clear cut than you think.

If talking punish game only, I see it as the biggest punish a character could inflict on an opponent given an achievable opening (like a broken shield, but not counting fox laser or Mario cape into punish). I don't see a characters "punish game" being better because they have more openings, I see the ability to get punishes as a different set of abilities, as it heavily incorporates neutral game. You start to stray from the question "which character has the best punish game?" and get closer to the question "which character is better?".

Fair enough. I'd drop ability to get openings from my definition then. But I think the number and severity of those punishes still matters.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm strictly talking fox/falco. I would like to believe it's reactable, but that needs to be proved. What I noticed from practicing and doing my own research on the chaingrab was that as the percent rises, the latest frame you can react at to cover everything doesn't go up by much. I know for a fact that it goes from 18 at 40 to 20 by 78. It actually dips to 17 in the 40s when you first have to back dash jc grab. Anyway, these 18 frames include when you're given a visual cue. From what I saw, it usually takes about 8-10 frames to be able to clearly see DI. That leaves you with a 10-12 frame reaction window, which is about 160 to 199 ms window. And when you factor in it's choice reaction time, which is even harder, it looks either humanly impossible or you'd have to be one of the fastest people alive to react to everything with consistency. All I'm saying is it is less clear cut than you think.

First of all, I never claimed it was reactable at 40% or even in the 40s. The higher Fox/Falco's percent, the longer you have to react, and it's noticeable with every regrab. You also don't have to backdash to regrab DI behind at 40. Until 65%/69% (falco/fox respectively - and these are safe estimations, as you can actually turnaround grab slightly higher than that, especially with Falco, but it starts to get very specific to their tumble animation), all you're doing is turnaround grabbing before those percents. Noticing visual cues is important. Regrabbing low/mid 50's vs falco with turnaround grab is about the same as backdash jc grabbing upper 60's regarding reaction time. I can't tell you frames. All I can tell you is that I've practiced that chaingrab more than anyone on this planet, and that you should trust in The Ace.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

First of all, I never claimed it was reactable at 40% or even in the 40s. The higher Fox/Falco's percent, the longer you have to react, and it's noticeable with every regrab. You also don't have to backdash to regrab DI behind at 40. Until 65%/69% (falco/fox respectively - and these are safe estimations, as you can actually turnaround grab slightly higher than that, especially with Falco, but it starts to get very specific to their tumble animation), all you're doing is turnaround grabbing before those percents. Noticing visual cues is important. Regrabbing low/mid 50's vs falco with turnaround grab is about the same as backdash jc grabbing upper 60's regarding reaction time. I can't tell you frames. All I can tell you is that I've practiced that chaingrab more than anyone on this planet, and that you should trust in The Ace.

I was only using 40 to illustrate how the difference in the frame window increases slowly over time, nothing more.

You technically can back dash in the 40s (I think it's like 44 or something). I accidentally wrote "have"instead of can there. That's when it dips to 17. That was just an offhand comment.

I realize you've practiced a lot, but that doesn't mean you're necessarily right. You need to prove your point rather than just telling me to trust you, especially when I've actually gone through it in 20xx and have results that go against what you're saying.

 

[-ACE-]

I was only using 40 to illustrate how the difference in the frame window increases slowly over time, nothing more.

You technically can back dash in the 40s (I think it's like 44 or something). I accidentally wrote "have"instead of can there. That's when it dips to 17. That was just an offhand comment.

I realize you've practiced a lot, but that doesn't mean you're necessarily right. You need to prove your point rather than just telling me to trust you, especially when I've actually gone through it in 20xx and have results that go against what you're saying.

I don't see why showing how something completely unnecessary to the cg isn't reactable means anything.

I guess it's on you to show that I'm wrong, without citing your own inability to recognize visual cues or react quickly. Go ahead. This will be entertaining. TM and I have both executed the cg in the 50's via reaction hundreds of times.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I don't see why showing how something completely unnecessary to the cg isn't reactable means anything.

I guess it's on you to show that I'm wrong, without citing your own inability to recognize visual cues or react quickly. Go ahead. This will be entertaining. TM and I have both executed the cg in the 50's via reaction hundreds of times.

Come on you didn't even try to follow my logic. The idea is to look at how the DI with the smallest frame window you have to react at a given percent changes over time. I used a percent outside the "reactable range" to show the window within that range does not change much once you get to the higher percents.

I also can prove the visual cue take about as many frames as I stated. When I was initially doing this research, I took pictures every frame of the chaingrab for every DI so I could see when the difference was noticeable. Now I feel like at this point this getting to be too much to post itt and is only gonna derail it more. But if you want to see, give me a PM.

Final thing I want to say is that just because you can't reactively cover all DI does not mean the chaingrab can't be executed. I never suggested anything like that. For some DI, the window to react is substantially higher than other DI. The conclusion I came to from my results is that you can watch their DI and reactively grab sometimes[/. But for other DI, you will either have to make a read or have insane, borderline inhuman reaction times.

 

[-ACE-]

...to show the window within that range does not change much once you get to the higher percents.

But the change, however small, is absolutely significant when it's pushing the line of "reactibility".

I don't need frame data. It still becomes subjective when determining which frames are recognizable, as some people are quicker at recognizing DI than others. And obviously, some people react more quickly than others also.

I think, after cranking the numbers with Ganon/falcon side-b reaction to Marth's sh rising fair (and being able to land it before a frame perfect second fair), my reaction times was often between 14 and 15 frames, counting the extra delay from the game itself, so yeah I'm obviously not slow to react when focused.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't need frame data. It still becomes subjective when determining which frames are recognizable, as some people are quicker at recognizing DI than others. And obviously, some people react more quickly than others also.

Frame data is important. If you know how many frames you have to react, then you can make a reasonable assessment as to whether its consistently reactable.

I think, after cranking the numbers with Ganon/falcon side-b reaction to Marth's sh rising fair (and being able to land it before a frame perfect second fair), my reaction times was often between 14 and 15 frames, counting the extra delay from the game itself, so yeah I'm obviously not slow to react when focused.

You should recognize your own cognitive biases. Its clear to see that you are expecting sh fair and doing nothing but preparing to react to that choice. If they dtilted instead your reaction would be worthless. This cannot be compared to a chaingrab where you must cover multiple options and choose on reaction. If you could consistently react at 14 frames, you should play sheik and be a better tech chaser than Faceroll.

 

[-ACE-]

Frame data is important. If you know how many frames you have to react, then you can make a reasonable assessment as to whether its consistently reactable.

If you know for a fact something works, and it has worked consistently via reaction for nearly a decade, how important is "proving" something already known? I put proving in quotes because you can't always say "this particular frame is the first noticeable visual cue". This is what I mean by it becoming subjective.

You should recognize your own cognitive biases. Its clear to see that you are expecting sh fair and doing nothing but preparing to react to that choice. If they dtilted instead your reaction would be worthless. This cannot be compared to a chaingrab where you must cover multiple options and choose on reaction. If you could consistently react at 14 frames, you should play sheik and be a better tech chaser than Faceroll.

Marth dtilt'ing wouldn't make a reaction to fair worthless, lol. You're assuming that I would just side-b as soon as he does any move, completely disregarding visual cue recognition. I wasn't directly comparing that scenario to the chaingrab either, you're just saying that to make a point, but it's completely hollow as it's based on a false assumption. I'm not the only person capable of executing the chaingrab via reaction at the percents I claimed it was possible. Not really sure what you're tying to accomplish with your post, aside from fulfill your occasional desire to argue with me. A Ganon main switch to sheik? No thanks, lol. But I can techchase with falcon similarly to wizzrobe, just not as consistently because I haven't focused on learning all the visual cues.

 

[atara]

If you're looking at a 14-frame reaction time (which is reasonable -- mew2king says his reaction time is like 12 frames, and he's mew2king), you have 1.5x as long to react by frame 20 as you do by frame 18. 4 frames vs 6 frames is a 50% difference. If your reactions are worse than that, the relative difference gets larger. So a small difference in numbers can be a non-small difference in feeling.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I forgot about this thread. Anyway, I agree with you ACE on your point about how the exact frame differences in DI become noticeable is subjective. But as someone that's looked at this fairly in depth, it's extremely clear that DI is objectively not distinguishable during the first few frames. Again, I'm willing to back this up by sending the pictures to anyone that's interested. I might just send them to you anyway cause otherwise you probably wont believe me.

If you know for a fact something works, and it has worked consistently via reaction for nearly a decade, how important is "proving" something already known?

But it only has been proven to theoretically work. There is no evidence is works on reaction, unless I've missed some huge post or something. You might think, "why does it need to be proved when I know it's true?" But with that logic, why should anything be proved about smash? Why was it necessary for magus to show the chaingrab was possible when he already knew it worked without a doubt? I know you don't have the tools to test things out, but I'd be willing to test things for you to help prove your point.

Furthermore, no Ganon player is consistent with it despite having this knowledge for almost 10 years on a public forum. Maybe it's because the chaingrab is really hard and no one has applied themselves to it adequately. But to me, it seems more realistic that it isn't a practical thing at this point. I would love to be proved wrong, though.

Edit: Sorry I should rephrase one part. No Ganon player is publicly consistent with it. I know you're claiming to be, but do you have the sets to back that up?

 

[-ACE-]

do you have the sets to back that up

Unfortunately I only have the word of top 100 players to back it up (because obviously someone ranked is more honest than I). I need to practice since I'm rusty and do it during a recorded match. Just last week I cg' d a fox into finisher starting at 60%. He was dumbfounded.

http://youtu.be/zx76cahyNxY?t=7m05s
Where do you draw the line, James? Am I lying about saying I'm reacting to this regrab at 80%, and that i got a lucky read? same thing with the ftilt? lucky read? Or is 80% too easy? Is 70% doable? 60%? I don't think there is a concrete number, as not ever player reacts at the same speed. Proof is a weird thing to ask for in this case, but nonetheless I'll try to cg spacies recorded as often as i can.

 

[jedimeister007]

tbh falcon is up there. Especially against Fox/Falco cuz of a guaranteed techchase, 100% reactable kill options and a large pool of mixups. His punishes are good on every character so I may be slightly biased here but w/e

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Unfortunately I only have the word of top 100 players to back it up (because obviously someone ranked is more honest than I). I need to practice since I'm rusty and do it during a recorded match. Just last week I cg' d a fox into finisher starting at 60%. He was dumbfounded.

http://youtu.be/zx76cahyNxY?t=7m05s
Where do you draw the line, James? Am I lying about saying I'm reacting to this regrab at 80%, and that i got a lucky read? same thing with the ftilt? lucky read? Or is 80% too easy? Is 70% doable? 60%? I don't think there is a concrete number, as not ever player reacts at the same speed. Proof is a weird thing to ask for in this case, but nonetheless I'll try to cg spacies recorded as often as i can.

You should know as well as I do that a player's ranking doesn't necessarily mean their opinions are correct. Just the other day, you made a post about how it was funny how smashboards posters could come up with a better tier list than top players. I understand the validation a player of that caliber can offer, but to me that's not enough.

Lying is a strong word. I think it's either:

A. You are indeed reacting.
B. You think you are reacting but are actually making a read.

I'm not in your head--I can't know for sure. But from my perspective B is very much a possibility. Knowing you to a certain extent, I don't think you would just blatantly lie about your chaingrabs. I apologize if posts I made in the past about this subject made it seem like that's what I was implying.

I do think there's a concrete number. It's basically the number where it is possible (within the span of what has been measured for human reaction time) to react. That's mainly what I'm looking for.

I never got far enough to figure out a percent where it starts to become reactable for a human. But my guess is around 70-80. This would when it's possible for someone with insane reactions to do it. For someone with an average reaction time, I think it would be closer to 90-100. I am very doubtful of 60, though. And I'm positive 50 is impossible.

I don't think proof is that weird of a thing to ask. There are so many players, both Ganon mains and regular players alike, that believe the chaingrab is impossible for someone to perform because the reaction time. If all these people are wrong, I think it would be good to show it. On the flip side, I think the way people approach Ganon might be different if it was shown where it's possible to chaingrab and where it's not.

 

[-ACE-]

Imo 50% For fox is too demanding, but not for falco. I'd say fox starts somewhere near 60. Please crank the numbers when you have time. I'm not going to try to convince anyone of this anymore. i know what's what.

 

[Zonda1996]

Being near a ledge against Spacies/Marth doesn't tend to go down well. PAL or NTSC.