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Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

gallax

Smash Hero
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you know after watchinf chaz play i have no idea what that thinks sometimes. i was watching a vid of him vs reflex and the same thing was going through my mind when watching this vid. at times he has moments of genious. but at other times, wtf is he thinking? he fh's way too much. i gotta say though, that ledge stalling was some gay ****. but, all my marth training has paid off. good job my brotha!!!
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Yeah, Chaz plays really weird sometimes. Sometimes the matches are really close with him and then sometimes i like 3 stock him..i don't get it. *shrugs* I haven't really sat down with him and played, most of my exp vs him is in tournament and MMs, which i have a lead (i lost to him once in tournament, beat him 1, and beat him in 2 MMs)

Don't ask guys...
 

Razek

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He FH's because if i power shield the SH forward air i get free grabs. Hrnut also said that FH is a safer method as well. I'll just assume that both of them are on to something because with a FH they dont get low enough for a shield grab.
 

KayLo!

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@Razek: Saying you'll perfect shield everything is a cop-out. Everybody can perfect shield..... oh ****, you can do it? So can Marth, and Pikachu has lag on his attacks too. Every character has punishable lag somewhere, even MK if you "perfect shield his sword." x.x

Pika's projectile is useful in this MU, but it's not a godsend. If you're far away, he can just jab/fair the tjolt. If you're close and try to follow up on the tjolt, fair will go through the tjolt and still hit you.

Plus guess what? He can perfect shield those too. ;) Tjolt ain't that fast.

Also: Pikachu has a hard time coming back from the ledge vs. Marth..... dunno what you're talking about on that one. Marth can space himself so that no matter what you do (roll, get up, get up attack, QAC, ledge-hopped aerial), he has a sword waiting for you, usually an fsmash. That's just a fact. To get past him, you have to bait him into moving, but baiting/mindgames don't go into a MU discussion, so that's a moot point.

I agree that in practice, Marth isn't as bad as the MU number might lead someone to believe. I also think it's closer to 40+:60- than 37:whatever. But in matchup theory (no mindgames, no baiting, etc.), I would say that he's our hardest MU.
 

gallax

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kaylo im gonna have to agree with raz on this one. ur "theory" is off. and also, stop going by just theory. you go by what the actual matchup is like. discussing anything but is ridiculous.

first: pika can recover fine against marth. the worst part about recovering is when marth grabs the ledge and forces a high recovery. and trust me, since i use marth A LOT in this matchup i know how to edgegaurd pika and what to do when pika is on the ledge. it can be difficult trying to edge-guard a ledge hopping pikachu. pika has plenty of options.

second: marth has openings. when he FH's you have time to run in and shield and get within marths "uhoh hes too close" range and gives pika an advantage. you can even do this when hes sh'ing. and trust me, the marth is better off using his fair/uair. ive tried using nair and its difficult to space with. i mostly use it when i see a qa coming and on plats. that or i jsut wait till pika has to land and try to take advantage of lag when trying to edge guard.

third: this matchup can be tough for marth. pika is small. pika is a fast little rodent. pika has a good spotdodge(which is a great tool). also, pika has a projectile. i dont care what ur theory says but its hard as h3ll to cancel every jolt and/or shield them without giving up an advantageous spot.

lastly: when you said that p-shielding is a cop-out im gonna have to say thats why ur still bad at this game. why r u bringin up the point that everyone can p-shield? the idea is that marth is gonna space us with fairs. so who's gonna be shielding more? pika is!!!! why? cuz to rack up some damage we need to get in close and get some grabs in and nairs and uairs and fairs, etc... marth, all he needs to do is swing his sword and space it properly cuz it outranges us. the sole fact that pika relies on grabs means we need to p-shield in order for this matchup to be manageable. p-shielding properly can win this matchup for you.
 

KayLo!

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You lost me when you started trolling.

When you can debate without it, lemme know. Until then, I'll wait for Razek's response.
 

gallax

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trolling? haha. im always looking at these threads and giving my input when i feel its necasary. ur not worth my time to troll. when i see statements that are blatently wrong and other pikas are going to read them and trust them i give my opinion. hah. trolling u. good job kaylo at once again pointing out something that is wrong.

and go ahead. see what raz says. im sure hes gonna completely agree with what i said.

edit:if you dont have anything to say in terms of matchups then dont say anything at all.
 

KayLo!

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When you bring comments like, "that's why you're a bad player" into what was a civil debate, that's trolling. Don't presume to know my skill level.

Razek can quote your Marth points for all I care, but I don't continue debating with people who go for personal attacks.
 

gallax

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keep it matchup related kaylo. and i can presume your skill level when you say things like excluding mindgames and baiting and etc... this is a matchup thread. we need experienced advice. if you cannot refute what i said then dont say anything at all. its as simple as that. i have experience so im gonna give my input when necessary.
 

Pikabunz

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Wow gallax, you really need to stop trolling and being an ***hole. That's all you do when you post on these threads. We all know you're just mad cause your match-up thread got unstickied, but only because it was a garbage thread. Seriously, I can't believe you got mad over that. Stop being a **** and show some respect to our mod.
 

Diddyknight

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@Galax: From what I can tell for not being in the pika thread for not tooo long but your being VERY Immature bout it lol. "we need experienced advice" lolol anyway imma leave this up to the pika regulars who actually know what they're doing(Kprime, Stealth, Esam, etc)

@thread: We need to get back on topic :3
 

Razek

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I'll break it up and discuss each point Kaylo made.

@Razek: Saying you'll perfect shield everything is a cop-out. Everybody can perfect shield..... oh ****, you can do it? So can Marth, and Pikachu has lag on his attacks too. Every character has punishable lag somewhere, even MK if you "perfect shield his sword." x.x

I'm not saying I perfect shield everything. What I am saying however is what would "theoretically" make this fight hard is the fact that Marth out spaces us. So timing a running power shield does many things for you.

1. You slide closer to them due to the fact that you shielded while running.
2. Marth's attack extends his hurt box out further reducing the distance between them.
3.The real kicker is, you power shielded so you have frame advantage to nair, tilt ,or grab. On a side note if you do grab straight from shield then the grab is also extended.

The reason that this is important is it shows pikachu can approach when needed.


Pika's projectile is useful in this MU, but it's not a godsend. If you're far away, he can just jab/fair the tjolt. If you're close and try to follow up on the tjolt, fair will go through the tjolt and still hit you.


To this point I will flat out say that if you get punished for jolting then you messed up. If you have the lead you jolt only to force him to you. Brawl caters more to the defensive player then offensive(with the exceptions of MK sometimes :p). Jolts are really only there for a few hits here and there and to refresh other moves, not like snake and his ******** nades. You can use them safely and they do serve their purpose.



Also: Pikachu has a hard time coming back from the ledge vs. Marth..... dunno what you're talking about on that one. Marth can space himself so that no matter what you do (roll, get up, get up attack, QAC, ledge-hopped aerial), he has a sword waiting for you, usually an fsmash. That's just a fact. To get past him, you have to bait him into moving, but baiting/mindgames don't go into a MU discussion, so that's a moot point.


I'll admit that getting onto the level may seem tricky but know that if he does one thing before you make your move. Be it forward tilt or up-tilt or even forward b, that's right you get a free QA right by him. You're pikachu, your super beast on the ledge so if you do have the lead then why even come up? Force him to either attack you,or move away to let you up. There are other options other then this but they would more or less fit into the mind game aspect which I'm trying really hard to avoid. Chaz is in no way a bad Marth, and I did not get punished getting up from the ledge very often either.

I agree that in practice, Marth isn't as bad as the MU number might lead someone to believe. I also think it's closer to 40+:60- than 37:whatever. But in matchup theory (no mindgames, no baiting, etc.), I would say that he's our hardest MU.


To this last topic, it's just a matter of opinion. Personally I think a match up thread should reflect the current meta game between the two characters. Olimar is in every way harder. because shielding means your asking for pivot grab (which can kill with blue or purple) and he has mad killing power and yellow pikmin are homo and stale all your crap. There are harder fights. Olimar is a good example, if you don't think so, then I really doubt you played a good one. Olimar is like marth but with a projectile(some which are immune to a majority of our attacks,which just stales our moves,and super grabs that can KILL!!!! Main thing is marth just shouldn't be considered our worst match up, its like saying mk's worst match up is yoshi because he has a cg on him and can lead into spike. Sounds good on paper but.... yah get the point.
 

KayLo!

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@Prime/Diddyknight: I appreciate the support <333 but just ignore him. :ohwell:

I'm not saying I perfect shield everything. What I am saying however is what would "theoretically" make this fight hard is the fact that Marth out spaces us. So timing a running power shield does many things for you.

1. You slide closer to them due to the fact that you shielded while running.
2. Marth's attack extends his hurt box out further reducing the distance between them.
3.The real kicker is, you power shielded so you have frame advantage to nair, tilt ,or grab. On a side note if you do grab straight from shield then the grab is also extended.

The reason that this is important is it shows pikachu can approach when needed
Fair enough; however, I disagree that Pika can just approach when needed. A running shield can still be countered, either by Marth grabbing you or, ****, just moving backwards.

Pika is at a disadvantage as long as he's not within Marth's "panic bubble," and it's a ***** to get in, because Marth outzones us and has comparable speed. No matter what approach you use, Marth can counter it, and you can't force him to approach, because he can easily block/eat through tjolts with a number of moves.

Marth forces Pikachu to get inside him, because while he may have to "semi-approach," he only needs to get as close as the max range on his sword (i.e., his ideal zoning position). Pikachu needs to get inside that range, but a majority of our approaches get shut down by his fair. There is no completely safe way to do it. Running perfect shields will only work if you can predict what he's going to do.

I realize that I may have been misleading by saying that SH'd fairs are all he needs, lol. My fault, I was semi-joking and didn't know this was gonna turn into a real debate.


To this point I will flat out say that if you get punished for jolting then you messed up. If you have the lead you jolt only to force him to you. Brawl caters more to the defensive player then offensive(with the exceptions of MK sometimes :p). Jolts are really only there for a few hits here and there and to refresh other moves, not like snake and his ******** nades. You can use them safely and they do serve their purpose.


(Wtf, SWF? Putting random spaces in my post.....)

Gotcha. Miscommunication, then: I agree with everything you've said here. The impression you gave off before was that Pika's projectile is a major advantage. In reality, they do help, but they're not nearly as great as they can be in other MUs.


I'll admit that getting onto the level may seem tricky but know that if he does one thing before you make your move. Be it forward tilt or up-tilt or even forward b, that's right you get a free QA right by him. You're pikachu, your super beast on the ledge so if you do have the lead then why even come up? Force him to either attack you, or move away to let you up. There are other options other then this but they would more or less fit into the mind game aspect which I'm trying really hard to avoid. Chaz is in no way a bad Marth, and I did not get punished getting up from the ledge very often either.
Bolded the parts in particular that I disagree with.

We may have a different view on what "MU discussion" means, but generally, MU discussions are free of player-related skills such as baiting, prediction, and other types of mindgames.

How are you going to "force" the Marth to move? He can chill in that one spot, and unless you're on Delfino, Halberd, or another stage with a permeable bottom, there's nothing you can do to make him move or do an attack. And if you stay on the ledge too long..... I dunno what the tourney rules are like in ATL South, but up here we have rules against planking and stalling.

Fact is that on the ledge vs. Marth, you have no safe options. You must outsmart him into doing the wrong attack or bait him into moving first, but those are player-related skills. Not relevant to a MU discussion, which, like I said, is ideally free of player-to-player stuff.


To this last topic, it's just a matter of opinion. Personally I think a match up thread should reflect the current meta game between the two characters. Olimar is in every way harder. because shielding means your asking for pivot grab (which can kill with blue or purple) and he has mad killing power and yellow pikmin are homo and stale all your crap. There are harder fights. Olimar is a good example, if you don't think so, then I really doubt you played a good one. Olimar is like marth but with a projectile(some which are immune to a majority of our attacks,which just stales our moves,and super grabs that can KILL!!!! Main thing is marth just shouldn't be considered our worst match up, its like saying mk's worst match up is yoshi because he has a cg on him and can lead into spike. Sounds good on paper but.... yah get the point.
I do agree that in practice, Olimar is harder, or at least comparably as hard as Marth. But like I said before, I think you and I have different ideas of what is appropriate in a "MU discussion." Technically, without player bull**** like baiting and mindgames, Pikachu has more options against Olimar than he does against Marth.

In practice? More often than not, you can bait Marth and punish him. But that's outsmarting the Marth player, not Pikachu beating Marth. This is what I think Gallax misunderstood when I said "MU theory."

Anyways, thank you for being civil, unlike some others. x.o I enjoy a good, intelligent debate.

EDIT: Also, for many, many reasons, your MK vs. Yoshi analogy isn't even close to being similar to what I'm saying...... @.@
 

Kenrawr

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gallax has the worst arguments.

ever.

I would love to join in on this discussion about marf but:

1.) Too much reading.

2.) gallax never reaches a compromise.

Get 'em Kaylo.

Kyoshi, what marths do you play? Just curious.
 

KayLo!

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Edit for Razek's work johns.

EDIT: @Razek: I just watched the vid of you vs. Chaz, and if anything, it just confirmed to me a little more that Marth has a considerable advantage. Quite frankly, he was ****** you during a lot of the vid, but then he made dumb mistakes or got too aggressive (probably because it was a friendly).
 

Razek

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Actually in all fairness that was me. I was in a SUPER rush due to being at work and this insurance finally decided to pick up and i have about 30 prescriptions to fill.
Pharmacy tech FTW.

Due to the fact that we both believe what we think is fine I got my points out on my first post. I think marth is not an easy fight. Nor is he The OMG I'M DOOMED match up. I just think of it this way. The ratio we have with marth is pretty close to the ratio with fox. I think fox has it WAY worse then pika marth. Sorry if I missed some points of earlier post I will edit and reply when I am able to actually reply correctly =P


Also, That match was not friendly. It is incorrectly labled.
 

Razek

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<3 But I really did like the whole shiny stick thing ;)
In a nut shell most of the things you said are completely valid to an extent. However I think you weigh them more heavily then they should be weighed. At WORST i think 40:60 but I think its closer to 45:55 then the previously mentioned. I am glad that it remained civil. But besides like chatting on aim or something the whole long post thing to long post back is a hell of a time consumption so I'll leave it as it is. Good games!
 

KayLo!

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I just think of it this way. The ratio we have with marth is pretty close to the ratio with fox. I think fox has it WAY worse then pika marth.
Well. I do agree that 37:63 is a little steep, imo. I've already said that I think the MU is more like 40+:60-, so essentially we're arguing for the same thing, lol. Or rather, arguing for a difference of 5 points, which is essentially nothing.

Also, a good Fox can do all right when he's armed with platforms. Referencing the Fox MU like it's a death MU is kind of meh. A death MU is like.... Ganon vs. ICs.

It's still pretty ***, though, lol. I agree that Marth isn't quite so bad.


Also, That match was not friendly. It is incorrectly labled.
Why did he let you take him to FD??? x.x Wut the.

Anyways, I'm just saying that the vid doesn't really show any new, exciting techniques against Marth. He made more mistakes, which you punished. That was just you outplaying him. *shrug*

He fail spaced a lot of his fairs, btw. Faired a little too aggressively and let himself get shield grabbed a lot, although I did see you demonstrating the "running perfect shield" thing.

Good ****. Your Pika's pretty nice.

@Your ninja edit: GGs. ;) I love debating. <3 We don't have enough of it 'round here.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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You guys know you can T-jolt interrupt Marth's up-b when he is recovering right? Helps get a little extra %. If you can, always edgehog when you can, get the little fair->nair or just nair to send him back off. I find that when marth is off the level is when pikachu has the most advantage. Marth actually doesn't have that many options to recover. If he goes low, T-jolt him to either gimp his jump or interrupt his up-b. Or, if he wants to just land on the level, marth can't really do anything to you. I think D-smash will beat all of his options aside from dair (but no marth would unless the D-smash is being charged). That is the main advantage IMO. (Also, its weird but if you grab marth at 0%, you can't get a U-smash from the F-throw...but if you bait the up-b and grab him again you can get the U-smash. Its really weird...)

Anyway, to the debate (summarized, basically T-jolt usage and ****) T-jolts work, but not as well as you would think. If pikachu doesn't get the lead first, we can't use T-jolts effectively. Yes technically we can send a T-jolt and like QA through him for chip damage, but that is stupid if the marth knows what he is doing. Chaz didn't know that you could DI the QA down and shield before the uair could come out and hit him.

If the pikachu doesn't get the lead, we are DEFINITELY in a losing position. Marth can sit there and jab/counter/fair/shield (Not even power shield is necessary) the jolts, making them pretty useless. If we are winning it is a little better, because the jolts interrupt his approach, but its not like its amazing. Once he gets close you can't really QA away unless the marth is really bad or not used to the play style. Camping in this MU isn't necessarily a necessity. I feel that getting into him, baiting up-b's, and beating him close up is what wins. Whenever I beat chaz that was always what happened. I would try to camp, get ***** for it (i never learned to camp...ZSS isn't good to camp against...neither is MK. **** the characters my main training is), and then fight him close up and win.

A lot of Marths rely on their Up-b to get them out of trouble. You are close to them, you can basically know they are gonna either Up-b, DB (dancing blade) or SH fair OOS. If pikachu's attack hits marth's shield, you are going to get up-b'd in the face. That makes the MU the most difficult IMO. We can never really make shield pressure...we are always going to get hit by it. That is where most of the damage is.

I feel that camping is more effective when we are at higher %s. Marths get desperate for kills and attack too aggressively or mess up their timing to cancel jolts. That lets us get a lot of damage from their stupidity, and we still shouldn't be dying till at least like 140% unless we get tippered or U-smashed.


Can anybody give me tips on camping marth? I always have trouble and get hit for it somehow...
 

KayLo!

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Can anybody give me tips on camping marth? I always have trouble and get hit for it somehow...
If you're getting hit for it, you're just too close. Since Marth's sword cuts straight through tjolts and maintains its hitbox even after eating them, tjolting anywhere within Marth's fair range (keeping in mind both advancing and retreating fairs) is dangerous business.

Also be careful not to back yourself into a corner while you're camping. Once Marth has you cornered near the ledge, it's somewhat hard to get past him, so be aware of just how far you're willing to back up if he's approaching on you.

On smaller stages like BF and the first transformation of Castle Siege, it's REALLY hard to camp without putting yourself in a balls position. Choose bigger stages if possible; if he CPs you somewhere tiny, rely less on tjolt, because it'll probably get you punished more often without as much space to run away. (Platforms get in the way too.)

In addition to fairing, some Marths will stay grounded, preferring to perfect shield jolts (if they predict one) and use their ground speed to get underneath you while you're in cooldown -- depending on how close you are. Being above Marth = bad, so if that happens, just try to land as unpredictably as possible, although you'll probably get hit. x.x

Those weren't really tips so much as words of warning, but I'm sure someone will come in with more positive tips. I tend to only tjolt camp when I have space to do it safely from far away, and I usually stop once Marth is closer than ~half a stage's length away from me (on stages with at least considerable length like FD, Smashville, Halberd, Delfino's non-floating transformations, etc.).

EDIT: Also, even more so than usual, grounded/SH'd jolts don't seem to work well because of how much they limit your movement.

I'm out for the night! <3
 

PUNK9

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You guys know you can T-jolt interrupt Marth's up-b when he is recovering right? Helps get a little extra %. If you can, always edgehog when you can, get the little fair->nair or just nair to send him back off. I find that when marth is off the level is when pikachu has the most advantage. Marth actually doesn't have that many options to recover. If he goes low, T-jolt him to either gimp his jump or interrupt his up-b. Or, if he wants to just land on the level, marth can't really do anything to you. I think D-smash will beat all of his options aside from dair (but no marth would unless the D-smash is being charged). That is the main advantage IMO. (Also, its weird but if you grab marth at 0%, you can't get a U-smash from the F-throw...but if you bait the up-b and grab him again you can get the U-smash. Its really weird...)

Anyway, to the debate (summarized, basically T-jolt usage and ****) T-jolts work, but not as well as you would think. If pikachu doesn't get the lead first, we can't use T-jolts effectively. Yes technically we can send a T-jolt and like QA through him for chip damage, but that is stupid if the marth knows what he is doing. Chaz didn't know that you could DI the QA down and shield before the uair could come out and hit him.

If the pikachu doesn't get the lead, we are DEFINITELY in a losing position. Marth can sit there and jab/counter/fair/shield (Not even power shield is necessary) the jolts, making them pretty useless. If we are winning it is a little better, because the jolts interrupt his approach, but its not like its amazing. Once he gets close you can't really QA away unless the marth is really bad or not used to the play style. Camping in this MU isn't necessarily a necessity. I feel that getting into him, baiting up-b's, and beating him close up is what wins. Whenever I beat chaz that was always what happened. I would try to camp, get ***** for it (i never learned to camp...ZSS isn't good to camp against...neither is MK. **** the characters my main training is), and then fight him close up and win.

A lot of Marths rely on their Up-b to get them out of trouble. You are close to them, you can basically know they are gonna either Up-b, DB (dancing blade) or SH fair OOS. If pikachu's attack hits marth's shield, you are going to get up-b'd in the face. That makes the MU the most difficult IMO. We can never really make shield pressure...we are always going to get hit by it. That is where most of the damage is.

I feel that camping is more effective when we are at higher %s. Marths get desperate for kills and attack too aggressively or mess up their timing to cancel jolts. That lets us get a lot of damage from their stupidity, and we still shouldn't be dying till at least like 140% unless we get tippered or U-smashed.


Can anybody give me tips on camping marth? I always have trouble and get hit for it somehow...

Theres a few things to look for to land a t-jolt.

1. Landing lag./Attack lag.- If hes trying to approve with side-b, right when he starts it Qac away from him and send a t-jolt. The lag from the side-b withh cause him to get hit by the t-jolt. Also if The marth is approching with f-air, hes going to repeat f-air until he lands. So send a t-jolt So it hits Marth, in between his f-airs, Trickey but it works.

2. Recovering.- Marth's Recovery is very easy to gimp. So when you send him off stage. send t-jolts off to him to try to screw up his recovery. And even if he makes it back to the stage, You still got some damage on him.

3. Sheilding-. If your trying to camp him from across the stage. and hes shielding them. just keep sending t-jolts until ether he starts to approach, or starts jumping. If he starts approaching use #1. If he starts jumping, use QA, to get at the right angle to send a ball t-jolt at him.

hope it helps.!
 

Razek

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Be uber safe!! I would say take a grabs over anything because his grabs wont kill but now i can't remember if he can grab release us like MK. But like you said just watch for tippers and up smashes. And with pikachu frame advantage on the ledge. If you ever feel like your in danger just hit the ledge until you feel safe again. Only thing that comes close to making me nervous on the ledge is mk and even then is managable if played correctly and not get over zealous(i tend to be bloodthirsty and greed =P) Esam you should pm me some advice on nickky =D to show your pika love. unless what you have written on the MU thread is still current and such ;)
 

[FBC] ESAM

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I know I do this pretty well against marth's, but you pikachus seem to result mostly on camping...so

What happens when the Marth is winning against you guys? Do you camp or do you rely on your close combat game?

I know that when I play a Marth, I go into my strong suit, my close combat/mindgames. That is how I deal most of my damage and kill marth. You guys seem o say camping is the end-all and be-all of the matchup...but if he has a lead you are never going to hit him since he never has to approach.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Well if it is worth anything.... I do believe that against the more decent marths (kadaj, HrNut, Dr.PP of NC), t-jolting only works if you space it well. I am a camping t-jolter pikachu, but i can honestly say that marth just jumping over them, shielding them (powershield every one), or swatting the t-jolts with his sword EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN TIME is highly possible against the better ones. That's what happens from far away. In terms of QaC > t-jolt whenever swords dance is coming, most of the marths I have faced (all 3 above) don't do a full Swords dance until they land the first 2 or so hits and QaC >t-jolt lasts longer than that so the marth will always have enough time to shield. As for balled up aerial jolt stuff, that's always a risk, cuz a full hopped f-air from marth will swat out that approach (and hit you also). I would agree with ESAM that unless you are in the lead at least in damage, a cold-calculating marth would not get hit by most jolts. Mixing in running shields, to grabs, and out of shield thunder jolts (for 'whiffed' swords dances... which protects you from up-b also if he opts for that) give more 'reliable' avenues for damage.

Still... the main thing is... whatever works... DONT STOP DOING IT. I've faced marths also that can't avoid jolts worth anything.... so camp those guys to death. It all depends quite honestly... ^_^
 

KayLo!

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You guys seem o say camping is the end-all and be-all of the matchup...
Um, what?

If you read Razek's and my debate, we both agreed that camping is less effective vs. Marth than usual. Most Pikas agree. He has so many options to quickly cancel jolts out (or to cut right through them), avoiding Pika's camp is easy for Marth. He's also pretty fast, so it doesn't take long for him to close in on you even if you do decide to straight-up camp him.

When you have the lead, camp away -- just do it carefully.

But if you're behind, tjolts are more of a distraction/way to possibly set up openings to get inside Marth's comfort zone, which is what you'll ultimately have to do if you want to deal real damage. Even though Marth has an easy time avoiding jolts and probably won't take damage from them, they force him to do something; watch and wait for him to **** up, then use that opening to get inside him.

There are other ways to bait him, of course. Tjolting is just one of them. *shrug*

Mind you, I'm not saying that you should play aggressively vs. Marth. As always, a defensive -- or "passive aggressive" -- playstyle is more rewarding. But straight camping's not really beneficial in this matchup.
 

Marc

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Any personal attacks regarding experience level and whatnot from this point on will be dealt with harshly. This isn't the SBR, everyone can contribute. Battle arguments, not the person posting them.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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O.o Oh ****, the law has been placed!

Anyway, back to the marth Match-up... I played Chaz a decent bit today and the tournament i went to (MMs and friendlies) and I was beating him in most of them. Camping does help (it helps get like 9-20% if he isn't being super careful) so I would still do it. I honestly think the MU is no worse than 40:60 for us.
 

Razek

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I played Hrnut for a good while with pika marth. The more and more I play it the more I feel like it's possible to be aggressive and not get wrecked for it. If you jolt him while hes trying to get to the ledge hes pretty much as good as dead and marth has a really hard time trying to kill you if your being safe. I think when pika has the lead and is being safe it's pretty much even. When it gets hard is when marth has the lead and is being safe/campy....aka forcing you to approach. Out of the 15 or so matches I do not believe he punished me once for recovering . As long as you save your second jump you have way too many options and they are all safe. To me I think saying its 40:60 is a worst case scenario.

On another note...I feel like people don't play enough of the good earthbound players like Shaky's Ness or Galleon's lucas. IMO they are not even at best 45:55. I think a ball jolt heals lucas for 19%... lol lets not even go into thunder seeing as its near 30% lol. Then ness has a kill throw which makes approaching a lot more risky, and if you thought Marth's fair was bad... Ness' lingers and out ranges MK fair. Other then marth and the earthbounds there isn't to much to argue about the MU ratios ;)


bigman40
Now, I asked people to post what certain matches were when I posted all the vids up on my wii. It would've helped if you said that it wasn't a friendly >.>
My apologies I do not check boards often besides pikachu thread and UCF orlando thread.


Punk9
1. Landing lag./Attack lag.- If hes trying to approve with side-b, right when he starts it Qac away from him and send a t-jolt. The lag from the side-b withh cause him to get hit by the t-jolt. Also if The marth is approching with f-air, hes going to repeat f-air until he lands. So send a t-jolt So it hits Marth, in between his f-airs, Trickey but it works.

2. Recovering.- Marth's Recovery is very easy to gimp. So when you send him off stage. send t-jolts off to him to try to screw up his recovery. And even if he makes it back to the stage, You still got some damage on him.

3. Sheilding-. If your trying to camp him from across the stage. and hes shielding them. just keep sending t-jolts until ether he starts to approach, or starts jumping. If he starts approaching use #1. If he starts jumping, use QA, to get at the right angle to send a ball t-jolt at him.

On your first point I don't believe a good marth would forward b unless he was at least hitting you shield. In which case you should just wait for the lag and grab for dmg. Fresh bouncing jolt does like 6? Forward throw is 11 and up smash is like 12? Not to mention QaC and be shielded and up aired by marth if he suspects it. Plus I know Chaz and Hrnut use that move very much and i know they don't approach with it. As for landing a jolt between the fairs, Marth has one of the best horizontal air movement in the game. If he is unable to adjust to the slow moving jolt then you may as well have went caption falcon and spammed falcon punch, lol. =P

I agree that hitting marth with a jolt while recovering does make it easier to gimp him. However, good marths wont get gimped easily, just like good Zss don't get gimped either.

I think a lot of people believe QAC is a safe method. At first glance it would seem so. However More experienced players will know that they can always shield nairs, and know what moves easily beat it. More over, QA increased pika's hit box to about the size of d3 sometimes bigger with some objects. I'm sure if your paying attention on like a d3 they like back air you a mile away and your just like huh? Last point on this is when fighting marth if he is in the air there is one thing you want, and that's to be under him. If your trying to him with with a ball then that means he's below you. Not the best spot for pika =(. I think you had the right idea if you have the lead when you said." Just keep sending t-jolts until he starts to approach."

None of what you said was necessarily wrong. I just think that there are better and more importantly SAFER options to be had.

As for what Esam said I pretty much think he nailed a lot of points. Your a good match up writer =P. I'm too much of a math type of guy for that. lol
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Ness and Lucas are 45:55? What?? Thunder jolt and Thunder can't be used? OH NO!!!

It really doesn't make that big of a deal.

Ness (Shaky practice)

Ness is irritating to fight, but it is definitely in our advantage. He has good damage-racking abilities...but his main things for damage, PK Fire and Grabs, are pretty easy to avoid. His spacing is very annoying, but you can just jump over him and come down with a FF fair and combo him. Ness has a good nair, and it will be used a lot OOS, but it doesn't really make that big of a deal. If you are smart with your T-jolts and thunder you can still use them. Also, Ness doesn't heal that much from either of them, i think its how much damage it would do normally, and then you could hit him with something for more damage!

Edgeguarding Ness is very easy. You don't necessarily have to intercept him and kill him straight off, but you should definitely be getting some damage. If you are invulnerable on the ledge when Ness PK Thunders (moving) he has to go to the level, in which case you could ledgehop nair him off. NEVER go out to intercept unless you are a stock ahead...you will most likely die. WHen you run into him when he PKT2s, the distance Ness travels will probably be halved, so it is very good if you can do that if you are a stock ahead. Ness will annoy you with PKT when you are off the level, and will probably get some damage due to how fast it is and the properties of its tail. Your edgeguarding is clearly better than Ness's.

Killing is weird in this Match-up. Ness has a better kill move, (B-throw) but we will have an easier time killing. Grabs aren't that easy to set up as ness without PKFire, which you shouldn't be getting hit with at any %. You will die around 135% no matter what on basically any legal stage (Maybe with a few exceptions). However, pika will kill at around the same %s and will have a much easier time getting those kills. U-tilt thunder works against ness, he doesn't have time to get his PK Magnet out, so that is still a guaranteed kill. F-smash will kill him at around 140% from the middle of FD, and U-smash will kill around 130% or so. BE careful at high %s, try to space him out with D-tilts and F-tilts.

Once Pikachu is inside, you HAVE to make it count. However, you can't be reckless because nair OOS will hit you away really quick (I think nair comes out in 3 frames or so for him). Grab combos and fair combos will definitely come in handy, and you should be doing some pretty good damage. On the other hand, Ness can't really do much to Pikachu in close range besides hit you away. Ness wants to space pikachu out with fairs, bairs, and PKFire. The most annoying of this is fair, but it is still pretty easy to get around.

At worst Ness is 50:50, i say at least 55:45 Pikachu's favor.

Lucas (Galeon practice)

Lucas is a much different fight. Both characters excel in Close-combat fighting which makes the fight way more tedious for us. Also, Lucas has more reliable kill moves than Ness with his F-smash and D-smash.

Edgeguarding Lucas is a key. Once you get him off the level, you need to get a lot of %. Lucas will not easily be edgeguarded for kills, but you can definitely get %. Lucas's tether is very good and it makes it considerably more difficult to edgeguard him. If he is all the way out there, he will have to PKT. Don't go after him and try to hit him away, you will end up taking around 30-40%. Instead, wait for him to either go for the ledge (ledgehog him with good timing and he will die) or go for the level (F-smash/U-smash/grab/nair/dair him away back off the level). You will probably get most of your damage from edgeguarding him.

As Pikachu, we have to be much more careful of Lucas edgeguarding us than we have to worry about Ness. His PKT is better at edgeguarding (more damage and it doesn't disappear after one hit) and if he reads your QA right, he can hit you with a F-smash or even U-smash. If you stay on the ledge too long, lucas can dair you and make it really difficult to get back to the ledge.

Killing will be in Lucas's favor in this Matchup. Any time you are on the ground (lying there, have option to roll, get up, or attack) you will most likely get hit by a F-smash. It is a scary *** position let me tell you. I almost lost a set yesterday beacuse he hit me to the ground at around 70% on the edge of smashville. He tripped when he tried to F-smash and i could get up and kill him before he could hit me. I was so lucky it wasn't even funny...D-smash will hit your sidesteps and kill you at around 135% on FD, and F-smash will kill you at around 110% on FD, and around 80% on smashville (near the edge).

Pikachu's killing in this matchup isn't bad either. We still have our normal options, nair/F-smash/U-smash/u-tilt Thunder. Lucas's momentum cancel isn't fast enough to be able to absorb the thunder, so you are safe in that regard. Lucas's momentum cancel isn't that great. Once you get him off the level make sure you do some damage (as stated above).

Close combat is a very interesting place to be in this Matchup. We have our usual tools (grab/fair/nair/dair) but Lucas has some very good options as well (nair/jab/f-tilt/d-tilt/fair). I feel that pikachu has a slight advantage in this position, but you must be VERY careful not to mess up or Lucas will have you right where he wants you. Lucas can do some very heavy damage with nair combos and grab combos. At high % watch out for FH Dair (if you dont' tech) to D-tilt lock to F-smash (guaranteed death assuming Lucas doesn't **** up). Both characters really have to play on their toes when in close range, both characters can **** the other characters up if they aren't too careful.

Neither character is good at camping. PKFire is easy to Pshield, and T-jolt will let lucas absorb somewhere around 15-18%. This doesn't mean the Matchup is difficult, it just means we have to be very very careful when we use our Jolts and thunders. Baiting a Magnet is a very plausible maneuver in this Matchup. If you are right under a Lucas, they will most likely use the Magnet, in which case we can jump up and hit him with nair/uair-nair/dair/bair.

Lucas, I feel, is a closer match than Ness. 55:45 at best for pikachu, even at worst.
 

KayLo!

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Those matches..... x.x

I don't want you to take this offensively, because I'm not tryin to come at your skill (obviously both you guys are good), but: both of you are pretty aggressive. I wouldn't say those vids illustrate the MU very well.
 

Razek

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Kaylo, your post in all fairness doesn't really add up. How would it not illustrate the match up? The match up was pikachu vs marth? Those vids were of a legit pikas and marths. If you have to play a different style to beat a specific character then so be it. You don't spam T-jolts on GaW , and you don't sit back and watch marth get better and better spacing on you. Pikachu is a fast character and is able to combo the crap out of people. Being aggressive can be very advantageous. Anther doesn't just sit back and enjoy the sun, he stays on them to keep them guessing which allows for tons of damage. There are times to play defensively like on MK, but IMHO this is not one of them, or at least not until your at kill percentage, then hold the stock as long as possible ;)
 

KayLo!

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*shrug* Entitled to your opinion. However, as good as Chaz is, he did a lot of things -- especially in the first vid.... second vid he played a lot differently, actually -- that are easily punishable by Pikachu. He recovered into god knows how many fsmashes, he faired pretty aggressively (allowing himself to get grabbed), and he didn't space himself in the ideal spot to punish Pika's ledge options when ESAM would go for the ledge.

I didn't come at either of their skill. Like I said, they're both good players; however, as far as illustrating the MU goes, they weren't really great examples. The vids weren't even consistent: in one match, ESAM did well, and in the second, he got absolutely *****.

I never said being aggressive doesn't have its advantages. It does like any other playstyle. But Chaz plays an aggressive Marth, and for Pikachu, an aggressive Marth [first vid] is significantly easier -- MU-wise -- than a defensive one (as is the case with most characters). Likewise, a really aggressive Pikachu [second vid] will have a harder time with Marth. That's all I'm saying.

EDIT: If you'll look back, I also said that Marth requires more of what we termed a while ago as "passive aggressive" playing. Camp until there's an opening, then go in and keep the pressure on until you're forced to reset your spacing. It's half-and-half, really, but both ESAM and Chaz are pretty aggro.
 

gallax

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esam really didnt get ***** in the second vid. at the end chaz was near a kill percent.

i do admit that esam looked a little rusty in the second vid. but it also seems that he had a few bad habits that wasnt present in the first video(like rolling into marth). i think esam put them up to show what we can do against marth and what not to do against marth.

what i like about the first vid was the fact that esam realizes that marth has terrible lag from his upB and used that to get a free usamsh everytime when chaz hopped off the ledge.
 

KayLo!

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3 stocked = *****. It happens, but call it what it is, lol.

<3 ESAM.

The first vid was definitely better than the second, but, whatevs. Opinions are opinions. *shrug*
 

[FBC] ESAM

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I didn't lose the match to show what not to do, but afterwards when i posted it that is actually what i was thinking.
 
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