Character Discussion Thread

[Kalimdori]

The issue with "Pig Ganon" continues with the fact that he is supposed to be a better, more powerful version of Ganondorf. I think the most ridiculous thing in the roster would be to have two characters play "balanced" when one is supposed to be the enhanced version of the other.

 

[Chandeelure]

And the best thing about this is that Zero Suit Samus is high tier and Samus is low tier.
Jet Heels>Power Suit confirmed.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

And the best thing about this is that Zero Suit Samus is high tier and Samus is low tier.
Jet Heels>Power Suit confirmed.

It has been like that when she had no jet boots either, so...Accurate portrayal my shiny metal...box.

 

[Chandeelure]

It has been like that when she had no jet boots either, so...Accurate portrayal my shiny metal...box.

But in Brawl, Zero Suit Samus had the Power Suit ... as pieces! XD
That was pretty useful haha, but pretty stupid too.

 

[Frostwraith]

Since when do tiers (a fan-made concept) decide accurate portrayal of the characters? >_>

It's like people don't even understand what portrayal is...

 

[A Distant Demon]

Since when do tiers (a fan-made concept) decide accurate portrayal of the characters? >_>

It's like people don't even understand what portrayal is...

well we are talking about how "balance makes a character accurate"
which I find hilarious in its own right because balance should be completely separate from canon anyway.

 

[pupNapoleon]

....You did not just go there.

If you think two psychic protagonists with half similar attacks who even play in the game with derived movesets are more different than another set of characters who, while being the same person, aren't even from the same genre of gaming-

then please, let's continue this, because you're wrong, and it isn't just an opinion.

I cannot say that I've played a game as Zero Suit Samus-
but is she not supposed to have different strengths than Samus? Such as being lighter, faster, etc? Samus is not "Upgraded Zero Suit Samus," as far as I'm aware- not in such a direct way. Ganon is literally Ganondorf as a better fighter. He is the Monster Destroying Angel Grove city AFTER Rita Repulsa makes him gargantuan, and Ganondorf is the monster before he was made bigger.

 

[Frostwraith]

well we are talking about how "balance makes a character accurate"
which I find hilarious in its own right because balance should be completely separate from canon anyway.

I bring two cases: Ganondorf and Ike.

They're heavyweight fighters in Smash that trade speed for power, but in their original games, they display a lot more speed than in Smash while retaining their physical strength.

Why? Because they were designed as heavyweight characters, which required a reduction of speed so they could keep their power.

In the transition from source games to Smash, liberties have to be taken as a result of adapting the same character from two different game genres. It skews their portrayal in some aspects, but those are necessary changes for the game to be balanced, varied and, more importantly, fun. Blatantly overpowered characters are not fun in any way, nor are underpowered characters.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Since when do tiers (a fan-made concept) decide accurate portrayal of the characters? >_>

It's like people don't even understand what portrayal is...

Well, if Magikarp and Gyarados would be playable and Magikarp would be without any doubt one of the best characters while Gyarados would be among the worst, it would be obviously inaccurate. Same thing here, probably on the same scale (except ZSS still can defend herself).

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Oh oh! Me! Me!

OT: Mewtwo needs more psychic attacks and less tail attacks.
UAir: Bends a spoon with his magick, hitting opponents.

Done and done. Enjoy being a new member of the clan.

 

[Wintropy]

Well, if Magikarp and Gyarados would be playable and Magikarp would be without any doubt one of the best characters while Gyarados would be among the worst, it would be inaccurate. Same thing here, probably on the same scale (except ZSS still can defend herself).

That's not how it works.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

That's not how it works.

Then how? They should have at least kept them a lot closer to each other in terms of how good they are, but instead made it even worse (ZSS now has less problems with recovery and KOing as far as i know and Samus has a lot of things nerfed, most importantly missiles since now they have landing lag).

 

[Wintropy]

Then how? They should have at least kept them a lot closer to each other in terms of how good they are, but instead made it even worse (ZSS now has less problems with recovery and KOing as far as i know and Samus has a lot of things nerfed, most importantly missiles since now they have landing lag).

I mean characters are not deliberately designed to be "better" or "poorer". Magikarp could very well be high-tier while Gyarados could be low-tier and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to their "accurate portrayal".

Y'know why?

'Cos certain character types benefit in this style of game. Fast, agile characters with decent recoveries and strong attacks are naturally going to dominate the upper tiers, whereas slower and heavier characters aren't as naturally adept at getting the good stuff.

Does that make high-tiers objectively better, or low-tiers totally unplayable? Of course not. It just means you've gotta put effort into mitigating their weaknesses, while the faster fighters can just swoop in and unleash hell as they see fit. So to use your example, if Magikarp was faster and safer in every way than Gyarados, he'd probably end up on a higher tier. That doesn't mean it's not an "accurate portrayal", it just means one style is naturally safer to play than the other.

Same with Samus and ZSS. Samus is slow and heavy, while ZSS is quick and lithe. ZSS also has a lot of potent combos and relatively safe KO options compared to Samus, so it's natural that she's widely regarded as the "superior" Samus. And as I recall, ZSS was actually nerfed heavily between the E3 invitational and the final release.

That said, as Frostwraith mentioned, tiers are a fan-made concept. They don't exist in the developers' schematics, they just happen based on aggregate results and detailed study. Smash 4 is a lot more balanced than previous Smash games, insofar as any character can potentially take on any other and expect to do well, provided the player is sufficiently skilled and knowledgeable of the matchup. Just because ZSS is regarded as a safer and easier to play character, and hence played a lot and known to get good results, does not mean she is objectively better than Samus or that it's going against canon. The important thing is capturing the spirit of the character and ensuring they're relatively balanced: making ZSS objectively weaker than and, overall, inferior to Samus would be just as egregious as making the former better than the latter.

 

[Deleted member]

As Wintropy said, that's not how it works.

Zero Suit Samus was in no way designed to be "better" than regular Samus on purpose.
It's just that in the one specific ruleset (the average tournament setting), Zamus ends up having the advantage.

Sadly, that one specific ruleset is typically the "end all" way to decide how "good" a character is...

'd by Wintropy himself/herself (I don't remember, please don't kill me...)

 

[A Distant Demon]

on the whole samus vs ZSS debate. Originally it was said that samus was one of the most OP characters they had according to development tests. J/S

 

[Wintropy]

As Wintropy said, that's not how it works.

Zero Suit Samus was in no way designed to be "better" than regular Samus on purpose.
It's just that in the one specific ruleset (the average tournament setting), Zamus ends up having the advantage.

Sadly, that one specific ruleset is typically the "end all" way to decide how "good" a character is...

'd by Wintropy himself/herself (I don't remember, please don't kill me...)

The highlighted part is a very, very good point.

I suggest people bear this in mind when touting "facts" as to which character is "better".

Re: - I'm androgynous, I don't mind which pronoun you use.

Most people use "her", though, if that helps at all. :3

on the whole samus vs ZSS debate. Originally it was said that samus was one of the most OP characters they had according to development tests. J/S

Didn't she originally have a kick after her up-b that would basically KO at 0%? Zero Suit Samus has something similar, but at least it's relatively weak and kicks at a very low angle.

 

[Troykv]

on the whole samus vs ZSS debate. Originally it was said that samus was one of the most OP characters they had according to development tests. J/S

Maybe in Other Game Modes? In 1v1... nah.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Maybe in Other Game Modes? In 1v1... nah.

this is nintendo development balance we are talking about.

I do wonder. does anyone know if samus was nerfed after the invitational?

 

[pupNapoleon]

On the Samus/ZSS topic... can someone with more experience actually speak on this matter:

Is Samus supposed to be a de facto "improved in every way" version of Samus?

My understanding was that it gives her more capabilities for the main environments she ends up in- but that it is not a literal "Better version of her." Just something used for a completely different scenario- Hunting.

Versus Ganon who is... Ganondorf 2.0

 

[BaganSmashBros]

On the Samus/ZSS topic... can someone with more experience actually speak on this matter:

Is Samus supposed to be a de facto "improved in every way" version of Samus?

My understanding was that it gives her more capabilities for the main environments she ends up in- but that it is not a literal "Better version of her." Just something used for a completely different scenario- Hunting.

Versus Ganon who is... Ganondorf 2.0

In Metroid? Yes. In absolutely every way possible. The only disadvantage is that she probably can't write like that, but thats not gonna help beat anything.

does not mean she is objectively better than Samus

That is the only part of your post i don't agree with. The only disadvantage she has is that she doesn't have that many projectiles, her projectiles can't KO reliably and she has slightly weaker attacks. Everything else is better or at least very close.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: - I'm androgynous, I don't mind which pronoun you use.

Most people use "her", though, if that helps at all. :3

Good to know.
Though I'm rather curious; which sex do you identify yourself with? I'll use the pronoun you would use.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Androgynous? Hooray for big words that I don't know what they mean!

So I just finished watching a play though of Okami. If I was going to say that a game was underrated, Its Okami. It is so freaking awesome! I wish that Amaterasu wasn't buried under more popular characters. I mean, Mega Man is totally awesome, Dante could bring something new to the roster, Ryu could do...something, and Wesker could continue to freak me out. Plus, we would get awesome music!

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Androgynous? Hooray for big words that I don't know what they mean!

So I just finished watching a play though of Okami. If I was going to say that a game was underrated, Its Okami. It is so freaking awesome! I wish that Amaterasu wasn't buried under more popular characters. I mean, Mega Man is totally awesome, Dante could bring something new to the roster, Ryu could do...something, and Wesker could continue to freak me out. Plus, we would get awesome music!

I think Mega Man was chosen not just because he is a popular 3rd party character, but also because he is iconic, one of Capcom's main franchises or at least was such for a while and has a lot of history with Nintendo. Something not every 3rd party character has. And haven't Sakurai said that characters originally from fighting games like Ryu will not be added?

 

[A Distant Demon]

At least you aren't a Viewtiful Joe fan. . . please capcom bring him back

Wonder poseman joke goes *here*

 

[Wintropy]

Good to know.
Though I'm rather curious; which sex do you identify yourself with? I'll use the pronoun you would use.

I identify myself as an androgyne. ;P

Just say "she", I present myself in a rather feminine manner and most people perceive of me as such.

Androgynous? Hooray for big words that I don't know what they mean!

It means I don't adhere to the concept of binary gender. I have elements of masculinity and femininity, but I am neither / nor.

On-topic: the only Platinum character I can see with a chance is Wonder Red, and even that's pushing it. >w<;;

 

[A Distant Demon]

I identify myself as an androgyne. ;P

Just say "she", I present myself in a rather feminine manner and most people perceive of me as such.



It means I don't adhere to the concept of binary gender. I have elements of masculinity and femininity, but I am neither / nor.

On-topic: the only Platinum character I can see with a chance is Wonder Red, and even that's pushing it. >w<;;

funny I brought up joe and poseman

If only W101 sold as well as it deserved. So darn good and failed :/ Maybe W102 will come out for smash 5.
shut up and let me dream my impossible fantasies

 

[Ivander]

Androgynous? Hooray for big words that I don't know what they mean!

So I just finished watching a play though of Okami. If I was going to say that a game was underrated, Its Okami. It is so freaking awesome! I wish that Amaterasu wasn't buried under more popular characters. I mean, Mega Man is totally awesome, Dante could bring something new to the roster, Ryu could do...something, and Wesker could continue to freak me out. Plus, we would get awesome music!

To Ryu's benefit, he would be the easiest character to translate into Smash. It's pretty easy to know which moves would be his specials and etc. That being said, I guess that's what would sort of make him boring, as his moveset wouldn't exactly be unique and new.

That also being said, before Dante and Wesker, I'd certainly like to see Arthur, Radd Spencer and a Monster Hunter or Felyne before those 2. I would also like to see them before Ryu, but he's pretty much the next shoe-in after Mega Man.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I know why Mega Man was put in the game, and it was one of the best choices possible. I'm just saying. Amaterasu. Smash. I want.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

funny I brought up joe and poseman

If only W101 sold as well as it deserved. So darn good and failed :/ Maybe W102 will come out for smash 5.
shut up and let me dream my impossible fantasies

No, it will be W404. And who is poseman?

 

[A Distant Demon]

No, it will be W404. And who is poseman?

this dude.
a very clear and obvious reference to Viewtiful Joe. Not as obvious as wonder cheerleader = silvie but still

-v on head
-"go for it"
etc etc

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I would also like to see them before Ryu, but he's pretty much the next shoe-in after Mega Man.

Nope.avi.

The biggest feature we look at in Smash Bros. is, ‘What does this character bring to Smash Bros. that other characters don’t?’ If you look at… someone from a fighting game already, and people like fighting with this character, from my point of view, it’s like ‘this guy does what this guy already does. He fills the role that this character already has.

It may change soon or later, but as of now, looks like Ryu and co. don't have that much of a chance to be playable.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't really like Monster Hunter. No offence to people who like the franchise, but I do not have any interest in a game where your sole purpose is killing super awesome monsters that I want to befriend, and have as pets. Arthur would be cool too, but he is much less likely than Amaterasu.(and much less awesome.)

 

[A Distant Demon]

I don't really like Monster Hunter. No offence to people who like the franchise, but I do not have any interest in a game where your sole purpose is killing super awesome monsters that I want to befriend, and have as pets. Arthur would be cool too, but he is much less likely than Amaterasu.(and much less awesome.)

and yet you have a pokemon avi.

and no capcom rep is likely. or any 2nd 3rd party character for that matter. like 0.0% chance

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah. Because in Pokémon you can own as many as you like. Last time I checked, In Monster Hunter, you can't. (And if you can my opinion goes out the window, and I will check it out.) Also, Wanting very badly is not the same as having high hopes.

 

[Kalimdori]

On the Samus/ZSS topic... can someone with more experience actually speak on this matter:

Is Samus supposed to be a de facto "improved in every way" version of Samus?

My understanding was that it gives her more capabilities for the main environments she ends up in- but that it is not a literal "Better version of her." Just something used for a completely different scenario- Hunting.

Versus Ganon who is... Ganondorf 2.0

Samus is better then Zero Suit Samus in every way when it comes to combat. Smash balances this because its Smash, but in Metroid, Zero Suit Samus is helpless in comparison to when she has the power suit.

For example, when she loses her power suit in Zero Mission, she has to sneak around, avoiding battles, armed with only a stun pistol (Which, in Metroid, is literally just a stun pistol, no kill power whatsoever), trying to regain her power suit so she can survive. And once she gets the power suit, she easily blasts through all the enemies she just snuck around.

Compared to Ganondorf/Ganon, both of whom have been shown to be nearly invincible to all things not blessed by some sort of deity.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Amaterasu is a god. She can kick Gannon's butt! On a serious note though, when do a villain's invincible traits ever show up in smash. Never. (Super armor and Final Smashes do not count.)

 

[Ivander]

Nope.avi.

It may change soon or later, but as of now, looks like Ryu and co. don't have that much of a chance to be playable.

From a Sakurai point of view, Ryu would be one of the ones low on the list to put in Smash. But from a Capcom point of view, would they really allow any other character that isn't Mega Man to enter Smash before Ryu series-wise? I mean, I could see them allowing another Mega Man character, but with another series, would they let another character from a non-Street Fighter enter Smash before Ryu?

I don't really like Monster Hunter. No offence to people who like the franchise, but I do not have any interest in a game where your sole purpose is killing super awesome monsters that I want to befriend, and have as pets. Arthur would be cool too, but he is much less likely than Amaterasu.(and much less awesome.)

I could understand a disinterest in the grinding portion(in which the Desire Sensor is most notable) and the rather cheap difficulty, but a disinterest because you can't befriend them? 0_o But last time I checked, one of the Monster Hunter games(I think Frontier) does allow you to have actual monster pets and not just those wyvern things that aid you on hunts.
That being said, if you like VG music, Monster Hunter has great music. Music worthy of entering Smash IMO.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You can have pets? Imma go check them out. (and hopefully see what the story is if one exists.) I like charging into battle with the cute little animal of my choice. Sue me.

 

[Ivander]

You can have pets? Imma go check them out. (and hopefully see what the story is if one exists.) I like charging into battle with the cute little animal of my choice. Sue me.

I believe for the actual monsters, like Rathalos and Tigrex, it's cosmetic. But in Frontier, you can have tamable Flying Wyverns called Halks aid you in hunting.

http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Halk

 

[Wintropy]

I think having multiple characters suggested by third-party games / companies would defeat the purpose.