Character Discussion Thread (This week: Peach and Falco)

[Deleted member]

Ryu stuff

Forced to go for 1 to 1 answers. Meaning he has specific buttons and actions to counter other characters specific buttons and actions. Smash is not that kind of game. It's a game about finding the few most abusable tools to great effect. So right off the bat Ryu is at odds with that makes a character strong in a smash game. He also is VERY limited in how he can move. So he relies heavily on basic universal options and defensive play until he gets an opening OR he has to bet it all and commit super heavy. That type of gameplay is not sustainable. Taking risks all the time will not win you majors consistently.

He mainly has to take risks because he does not have any easy ways to convert into stuff from neutral that is not reactable. Very bad dash attack. Grab that does not lead to anything at middle percents and higher. Best grounded pokes do not lead to conversions. He has huge combos that are situational and require a luck or a read to get going. At high level people are not getting hit with Focus Attack level 3 anymore. He has footstool combos, but they are DIable and with Ryu's poor air control good luck following it to keep your combo going.

Not gonna get into specials except to say they are not good. Hadouken is basically just a throw away move. At high level it gets you smacked. Tatsu is only good as recovery. Shoryuken is his best one for reasons we already know. Invincibility frames, can be comboed into, can be hit-confirmed into so no need to risk just throwing it out hoping it hits.

Ryu's meta got off to a really bad start which did him no favors. It was essentially the combination of EVERYTHING the smash community does wrong when trying to unlock a character's potential. Too much focus on combos. No focus on neutral. All the combo videos on the flashiest most damaging stuff that is also highly impractical. COMPLETELY IGNORE his ground game. Focus on throwing out aerials at shields. Ignore proper punishing. I could go on and on and on. It's not completely the fault of his player base. Ryu breaks the mold completely in so many ways. The usual process of learning a character just does not apply. Approaching him like a smash character is what led to so much controversy about him imo. Some said he was broken and others said he was trash.

In the end he is high tier imo. He just not abusive. And having throw away specials is never a good thing.

I really like this post: it seems like you can give a full Ryu guide. Keep up the good work!

In the first Backroom tier list Ryu was placed sixth because he probably had "great combos" and stuff. Everyone focuses on trying to get combos to impress themselves and the audience, when Smash 4 does not have that sort of power like Melee. I agree with moving Ryu to high tier; his results are not close of a top tier and his match ups do not reflect a top tier. People fear it when Ryu acts all mobile; he is actually pretty punishable with proper DI.

Good stuff, enjoyed your post @Emblem Lord .

 

[PJB]

I used to be a villager main but I’ve dropped him more recently for ZSS, though I still break out villy from time to time. I think villager is an awesome character but requires a play style that requires tremendous patience. His lack of a usable grab really is crippling. His entire zoning pressure is excellent and forces shield very often but...then you’re stuck attacking a shield that you cannot beat. If villager even had clouds grab game where he gets little reward but can use the grab often he would be such a stronger character. This weakness is mitigated somewhat when you have a tree up, but villager is too slow to prevent faster top tiers camping out the time when he has axe available. For this reason, I think villagers matchups are largely dependent on whether or not the opposing character can outcamp him, because he really is very difficult to approach. His combination of effective zoning tools, pocket, and amazing close quarter options in nair OOS and jab really make him threatening in the anti approach game. I think he shuts down almost every character below him on the tier list hard (though there are a few unusual exceptions like Palutena) because they simply cannot break his zone repeatedly. With that said, I think he loses to the majority of characters above him because the majority of them can force his approach, which he struggles to do. Bayonetta and cloud, the two most popular and relevant matchups, are also especially problematic. Bayo can dtilt bullet arts to destroy lloid rocket, and witch time in general is very dangerous for villager because of his poor grab. Cloud does his usual stuff that largely invalidates the lesser zoners, though villager at least has a very strong edge guard game to give him a game plan against cloud.

TLDR; villager isn’t bad, but can’t compete with the best of the best. I actually agree with esam’s list that he is right around the very top of mid tier

 

[DonOwens]

Been playing a bit of Villager, and noticed that the tremendous spike in options that other characters have to deal with projectiles gives him a severe disadvantage being that his only realistic style of play is projectile based camping. SSB64 and Melee being the games I take seriously, it was surprising to me to see how many characters have these sort of options when it used to be only a couple cast members in previous games.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What about the agressive way Ranai plays Villager?

 

[DonOwens]

What about the agressive way Ranai plays Villager?

Don't know how many of his sets you've seen, not that I've seen all of them... but he is not very aggressive as far as I see it. He usually camps Lloids, uses them to distract/hide his approach, and spaces/keeps distance with the slingshot. That is my definition of a campy projectile based play style.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm aware that Ranai has done multiple short hop f-airs with fastfall autocancels to carry opponents across the stage. I find that to be agressive.

 

[PJB]

I would classify ranai in sort of the same way as MKLeo- patient and reactive, until an opening presents itself at which point they punish hard. This can appear to be aggressive due to the heavy punishes but is really more defensive compared to someone like Nairo who throws out raw ZSS grabs in neutral

 

[DonOwens]

I'm aware that Ranai has done multiple short hop f-airs with fastfall autocancels to carry opponents across the stage. I find that to be agressive.

Wait, short hop autocanceling fairs makes you aggressive? Jeepers creepers. Obviously I'm not speaking in absolutes here, he's not 100% defensive, that to me means he would be in shield the full game. You can't play at that level without a plethora of techniques at your disposal and the awareness of when to use them. The opinion-that he has done "multiple short hop fairs with fastfall autocancels to carry opponents across the stage," which in turn makes him aggressive/offensive- is laughable to me. But opinions are like bungholes, we all have em and they all stink.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ROB:

I mained him in the past, but now I’m on different pastures. That’s because ROB required some serious technical skills, and I wasn’t willing to put much work, and wanted something more basic.

Rob got skewered by the changes from brawl to smash 4. His notable moves (Fair, Ftilt, and Dtilt,) got their ranges cut off considerably (though Dsmash prolly got butchered range-wise too). His mobility with Up-B got hurt too, he used to have great speed horizontally, but now he can only go up fast. His old flaws are still present, blindspots around 1 and 11.

His only buff is his grab game really. Has guaranteed damage builders, and 50/50s at later percents.

ROB’s game is a whoooole bunch of “get off meeee!!!!!!!!!” everything he does is to put distance between himself and the opponent; not much leads into each other besides Dtilt (which still pushes opponents away), jab1, Nair, and Dair. This leads into arguable his most important tool.

Gyro:

This move makes ROB imo. ROB naturally plays to keepaway, and the diminishing of his range makes it much harder to do that. He suffers greatly when his keepaway fails (being floaty, large, and fat doesnt help, nor does lacking good ranged moves help either) and his laser can’t zone people out by itself. So, he will suffer to play within hairs of CQC. That is, if he doesn’t play with gyro.

See gyro, is a move that corrects a lot of errors. With gyro in hand, he now has more ways to get down from a juggle situation, can play a reliable keepaway game, can do extended combos, keep a hit box around him when approaching, have a quick OOS option that doesn’t require the opponent to be on top of him, can combo off of grab, edge guard (on and offstage), poke from mid-range, do crazy mix-ups of all kinds, etc... gyro is like having a bonus check, income tax, promotion, no student loans owed, refunds from all stores, and being paid dividends from stocks. It elevates ROB’s game to an astronomical level, when used and abused right.

However, gaining all these benefits and traits requires the player to have amazing mechanical execution, and knowledge on how to play “gyro on, gyro off.” Those who know the benefits of gyro and try to extract everything from it abuses it too much, and begin to suffer on how to play “gyro off.” Those who try to play fundamentals based have a hard time elevating their “gyro on” game and have the problem of stagnating. It takes a character specialist with the fundamentals of a generalist to utilize ROB (and all characters honestly) how he should play.

Off-topic, but also on-topic at the same time, villagers never utilize his tree piece enough. They really need to exploit that if they dare to attempt to elevate.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Off-topic, but also on-topic at the same time, villagers never utilize his tree piece enough. They really need to exploit that if they dare to attempt to elevate.

I think you may be onto something with that but it can be somewhat annoying to lab and use potential combos. Even if you can consistently do footstool item combos (spoiler: I can't), 's wood chip is not the easiest item to obtain. Whereas can spawn items in their hand and produce items that can be reliably spawned and picked up, 's is situational like 's or's. has to repeatedly use a tome or sword moves, then time the item pickup before it despawns. If you mess up, you have to start over again, because the sword/tome won't stay on the ground. has to have her Grenade get cancelled, then also pick it up before it despawns (IIRC it's a little more lenient than 's but still a tight window). With , it also takes some time to setup, like 's but with there is also RNG. You may have to try several times before you get a successful item spawn. You don't have to worry as much about the initial pickup, but I do think it despawns shortly after hitting the ground if you mess up.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

For Robin, a timer buff was added so that the dropped items would stay on the ground just long enough for it to be grabbed.

Robin has to simply short hop backward with an aerial, airdodge, or grab to grab their discarded item.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think you may be onto something with that but it can be somewhat annoying to lab and use potential combos. Even if you can consistently do footstool item combos (spoiler: I can't), 's wood chip is not the easiest item to obtain. Whereas can spawn items in their hand and produce items that can be reliably spawned and picked up, 's is situational like 's or's. has to repeatedly use a tome or sword moves, then time the item pickup before it despawns. If you mess up, you have to start over again, because the sword/tome won't stay on the ground. has to have her Grenade get cancelled, then also pick it up before it despawns (IIRC it's a little more lenient than 's but still a tight window). With , it also takes some time to setup, like 's but with there is also RNG. You may have to try several times before you get a successful item spawn. You don't have to worry as much about the initial pickup, but I do think it despawns shortly after hitting the ground if you mess up.

Regardless, it’s a part of his kit and should be thoroughly explored and abused.

The difficulty of getting it can make exploiting it a pain absolutely, but it’s there, and should be practiced.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

There are some Robin mains that actively use it. They even have jablock setups from it, just don't expect Dath to do them.

 

[ARGHETH]

This week, it's Greninja and Cloud.

 

[KakuCP9]

Bc, Reverb, Illusion and Chainz know much more about Gren than I do, but I'll give my two cents. The best way to play him is with a grounded style in mind to take advantage his mobility. While his air mobility is good, his aerials aren't meant to bluntly dogfight with due their weird start up and low active frames. Instead, using his uncharged shuriken to force a response is the way to go since on the ground, you have options such as dash grab, jabs and tilts to control the midrange. Footstools are cute, but aren't very practical as d-tilt-> f-air or Usmash works just as well. Also if all else fails, just Uthrow them if they live to 150% range (or less if Greninja has rage).
Greninja tends to struggle against characters that either he can't play hit and run against due their speed (Fox, Sonic) and force him to approach (Sheik), but kit is flexible enough to leverage his shortcomings. I feel biggest thing bringing him down is the public perception of him. Starting from his heavy (but warranted) nerfs, many felt he had little to offer after his most reliable moves had been trashed. Even after being compensated, his kit was much less braindead simple and people would try to force conventional ways to play him (i.e space f-air). His big moment being the Greninja saga had turned into a bane for him due to Greninja players knocking out each other early on. It will take some time, but feel his strengths will show themselves properly to world.

As for Cloud. He's an Advent man-child and his FF7 remake won't come out until the end of the century. That is all.

 

[Lavani]

Pimpstick Kaku covered most positive things I would've had to say about the frog, but I would like to add that the character feels overly designed to be "fair", to his detriment. His usmash's first hit pops grounded characters up and out of the second hit, despite Sheik and Corrin being allowed to use their similar (actually stronger knockback-wise, thanks to higher BKB) usmashes for early kills below platforms. His uair multihits are designed for opponents to fall out if he's using it at the apex of his jump, which is something that can be exploited, but also tends to interfere when one would want to use it as a kill move. His endlag on nearly his entire kit is pretty standard, contributing to a lack of braindead abusive tools to leverage - the exceptions are Water Shuriken, pivot grab, and dash attack. His kill power outside of usmash ranges from average to below average, though having one of the better killing uthrows is pleasant. There's also some annoying little quirks like blind spots on his water sword attacks, but multiple factors go into that and it's somewhat tangential anyway legalize omega duck hunt

Shield is bad. I mean, his OoS options are bad (aside from footstool, maybe?), but Greninja's movement generally means he's going to get more out of moving around than sitting still in shield. Most of his other ground buttons are fast and rewarding, though; powershield punishes may be worth exploring, rather than adopting a "don't shield ever" mentality.

As for another defensive option, I've long been a proponent of pivot grabbing as Greninja. It has a paltry 20 frames endlag, and combined with his massive disjointed pivot grab range and slippery physics, it stuffs approaches really well but is also typically safe on whiff. Usually when his grabs are referenced it's in regards to the slow startup, but frankly that doesn't matter much outside of grabbing OoS. I've only loosely been following the scene lately, but watching Venia play recently I was happy to see pivot grabs being utilized in that fashion. Onstage Hydro Pump is also an interesting tool I've seen him put to use, being able to mess with spacing and force whiffs in addition to the well-known gimping applications.

This post probably came off as pretty negative, but I'm a frog optimist I swear. He has room to grow, superb mobility that helps to both capitalize on situations and cover his other weaknesses well, and all the tools he needs to succeed - just maybe not all the tools he wants. I see him similarly to characters like Lucina in that regard, where he has defined strengths that leave him capable against anyone, but lacks abusive qualities that would push him to the top.

Cloud exists.

 

[Deleted member]

My thoughts on Greninja? Greninja has a lot of potential in my opinion and Greninja scored 14th in @Das Koopa 's character score list ( despite Greninja losing 0.1% from the last one ) right above Corrin. I personally think Greninja could be much more dangerous if people develop it's meta. Greninja is placed a bit too low because the voting process happened before it's explosive results. Those explosive results could boost it into the higher section of C tier or even B tier. KakuCP9 said all of it's advantages.


Oh Cloud? He's Cloud... His sword is large and I like that so I can do my combos or whatever. Better than Ike's.
This thread is underrated in my opinion.

 

[Lord Dio]

4br currently discussing the mobility given by Limit, so yeah there's that.
He a gud edgelord.

also since someone on the other thread speculated Cloud eventually becoming a losing mu for bayo, plus all the strengths he has and gets with limit, his only losing mus at that point would be maybe sheik diddy? (also pika imo)
Don't get me wrong, it's entirely theorycrafting, but I'd say it is most possible for him to eventually top bayo as the best in the game.
Yes, I do believe the above statement will come true sometime in the future. Near? Nahhh, but eventually, I think it's possible.

Also, if you ask me, not enough players really use intimidation as a factor into their Limit gameplan, and I think it could help them.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I agree with Cloud having a lot of intimidation once he gets Limit. As long as he keeps his distance I am fine. Once he gets near me, I start to panic since I have no clue when they'll throw out Limit Cross Slash, so it becomes an akward waiting game.

KakuCP9 So his advanced tech nerfs were good? I'm among the people who think that they shouldn't have been removed. I think part of the reason is because I have only seen them in tech videos instead of actual matches.

Edit: For Cloud I'm curious why players do not use use auto-cancel up-air to double jump Limit Cross Slash. I remember M2k's long Cloud labbing video, and either after or before that, I labbed the earlier confirm across different weight classes and got it to connect at a huge range.

Is it not being used just because other Cloud players don't use it?

 

[MarioManTAW]

Edit: For Cloud I'm curious why players do not use use auto-cancel up-air to double jump Limit Cross Slash. I remember M2k's long Cloud labbing video, and either after or before that, I labbed the earlier confirm across different weight classes and got it to connect at a huge range.

Is it not being used just because other Cloud players don't use it?

Probably because up-air to Finishing Touch is a thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Since Cloud and Bayonetta are developing the most, I could see in the future Cloud going even with Bayonetta and Pikachu, as well as winning against Diddy Kong and Fox. I could never see him winning the Sheik match up; that is by far his worst. The thing that helps Cloud is he is defiently the easiest character to pick up so lots of Cloud players will shore up in to low tier play and occasionally some smart ones will be winning top level play. Cloud and Bayonetta are the character who are developing the most, and that is why they rank very high in @Das Koopa 's score chart, being the two characteres to exceed 490. I think Cloud will either be from second best to fifth best. He will never leave top five, or even top two for that matter.

 

[Caryslan]

I agree with Cloud having a lot of intimidation once he gets Limit. As long as he keeps his distance I am fine. Once he gets near me, I start to panic since I have no clue when they'll throw out Limit Cross Slash, so it becomes an akward waiting game.

KakuCP9 So his advanced tech nerfs were good? I'm among the people who think that they shouldn't have been removed. I think part of the reason is because I have only seen them in tech videos instead of actual matches.

Edit: For Cloud I'm curious why players do not use use auto-cancel up-air to double jump Limit Cross Slash. I remember M2k's long Cloud labbing video, and either after or before that, I labbed the earlier confirm across different weight classes and got it to connect at a huge range.

Is it not being used just because other Cloud players don't use it?

The problem with Cloud is that you are never really safe, no matter how far you are away from him. I play characters like Lucina, Ike, and Ganondorf for the most part, and Cloud really does not care if you create any distance from him. If you stay away, he'll simply charge Limit Break, spam beam swords to test your reaction, or simply wait for you to make the first move.

Plus, Limit Break Beam Sword hurts. Maybe not as much as cross slash, but it is powerful enough to send someone like Lucina or Robin off screen if they are at a pretty high percent.


What makes Cloud so dangerous is my opinion is his Limit Break. Yes, he's got great range with his sword, a good moveset with fairly quick moves that have insanely good hitboxes, a beam attack that gives him something of a range game. All of that alone would still make Cloud a high or top-tier character.

But Limit Break is what puts him above his fellow swordsmen and the rest of the roster. Cloud has access to a Super Gauge that he can manually charge whenever he wants to, still fills up when he takes damage, he can never lose any charge no matter what, he gains buffs to his speed and power while in the Limit Break stage, and he gains access to what are basically EX(to use a term from Street Fighter) versions of all his specials.

Limit Break is what puts Cloud above everyone else simply because it has no drawbacks besides Cloud losing the normal versions of his specials. But let's compare Limit Break to Little Mac's KO gauge which loses charge when he's not using it and pretty much gives him one shot to use a special Punch. Or how about Lucario who gains insane power from Aura the more he takes a beating or loses, but is fairly weak when he's got the advantage.

This is the key thing for me. You can never breathe easily against a Cloud. I have played matches where I begin to overwhelm Cloud, but he gets his hands on a Limit Break, and I end up eating a beam sword or Cross Slash that came almost out of nowhere.

Limit Break gives him a boosted state and EX Moves all rolled into a gauge that he can charge either manually or if he takes damage. Without it, he would be another swordsman, albeit a very good one. With it, he's a force to be reckoned with in the metagame.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

My character (Lucas) has two options in response to Blade Beam, heal or reflect (I prefer heal). So if he spams it I can get an advantage, the only time I may worry about Blade Beam is if it is used to edgeguard me when I do not have my double jump. For Limit Blade Beam, it's depends on where Cloud is on the stage when he throws it which decides my response.

Besides that, I consider Cloud as just a regular sword fighter who is dominate in the air abd has shield pressure/punishes. As for Limit, I do not mind Cloud charging at the beginning of the match, since generally my attempts to stop the charge with Zair or PK Fire will get shielded, so I would rather get over that phase unless I am at high percent.

As for Cloud on the ground, the options I usually see are a dash attack or a dash grab mixed in with Limit Charge as a bait. I'm only concerned with dash attack if he uses it to catch my landing. In my experience, getting 2-framed and landing is the only time I get hit by dash attack.

As for up-smash when I am landing, I just air dodge it, or try to stall and then get hit wih a short hop up-air and work on drifting to the ledge.

When Cloud has limit, I think his repeated b-air shield pressure into Limit Cross Slash or Limit Blade Beam is great. He can choose to unleash a projectile or a multi-hit move on your shield or to punish a roll.

If I manage to have a healthy shield if the Cloud decides to do a raw Limit Cross Slash on my shield, I can punish him with a jump-canceled up-smash.

I'm used to fighting Cloud on Battlefield, so that might help to see where I'm coming from.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Cloud to me is very linear in the neutral.

He either charges limit, which can be stopped by scaring him (dashing in and out of his face)

Or he tries to engage.......which means he will jump in the air..........which is by far his best option to choose.......so he’ll do it a lot. And a lot. Annnnd a lot.

Because cloud is pretty mid tier on the ground. Fast Dsmash, Jab, Utilt, and Ftilt sure, but they’re not good enough to make him any better than mediocre on the ground.

This makes him hugely predictable, and those with strong AA games (Mario, Luigi, ZARD, etc.. those with intangible, invincible Usmashes, Uairs, and whatnot), will make life for cloud muuuch harder.

His aerials are massively disjointed and nearly lagless yep, but not when you’re up close on him. Let him throw a aerial move up close on your shield (provided you recognize to hunt him down when he’s in the air)....it’s curtains.

That’s him with no limit though.


WITH limit, there’s a whole new game to play. A game that I’m not very keen on. Need to play cloud more.

 

[SmolNozomi]

Cloud is a force to not be handled easily.

His bulky attacks and ridiculous approach options, in addition to his radioactive LED sword all contribute to him to almost always having the advantage over you. His aerials are large, spammable, and come out quick, making it hard for you to close in on him without having to shield.

Limit also plays a factor in his strength, as it automatically gives him mini Final Smashes for either pressing down b or playing the game. All (maybe exect Climhazzard) are decent kill options at about 70%.

Of course, the main problem is that I main Dedede, the worst character in Smash, but hey, it makes winning all the more better

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm stealing "radioactive LED sword". Got a laugh out of me.

As for his down smash, you can SDI out of the first hir and punish him. Not too sure if that is light/floaty character exclusive but the option is there.

 

[SmolNozomi]

I'm stealing "radioactive LED sword". Got a laugh out of me.

As for his down smash, you can SDI out of the first hir and punish him. Not too sure if that is light/floaty character exclusive but the option is there.

(I mean, how else would you explain it glowing GREEN of all colors as well of it's questionable hitboxes.)

Anyway, for Greninja, his high speed and air mobility makes a difficult but awesome playstyle.
He can chip off some damage with Water Shirken, escape some combos with Shadow Sneak, and gimp with Hydro Pump.
If you know what you are doing, he can create some devastating combos and follow ups.
Down air spamming is fine by me, if you want to risk getting a spike in exchange for the chance of SDing yourself, go on ahead.
So props to you Greninja mains.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

ARGHETH Who are the two for this week?

 

[ARGHETH]

Right.
This week: Doc and G&W
MistressRemilia

 

[MercuryPenny]

g&w is a pretty typical 'scary low tier'. he dies incredibly early and has an awful disadvantage state but can get some crazy early kills with down throw -> side-b and a little luck, a pretty strong (if situational) kill confirm in down throw -> up air, respectable damage output, and hitboxes that rival that of some of the swordies.

those disjoints, a low falling speed, and a long-distanced recovery also make him pretty threatening offstage if you don't play your cards right, and trying to camp with energy projectiles can give him what amounts to a guaranteed 9 with a bigger hitbox. his up smash also makes a large portion of his body invincible looong before the hitbox comes out, which makes it scarier than mario's despite being much, much slower.

but uh, yeah. not being able to land and being a lightweight floaty with somewhat slow frame data kinda sucks.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

To me G&W's animations are weird (talking about N-air, B-air, and F-air. His Oil Panic comes out very fast, can punish spotdodges, and cannot be reflected.

His up-air and down tilt from what I have seen, scale very well with rage. The windboxes on those moves alone can kill you and send you very far if he has a lot of rage.

His d-air seems punishable to me and I have seen some players use it like Kirby's Stone.

Fire is hard for me to punish on the way up and is even intangible at the start for 9 frames (frames 5-13). The windbox can gimp different characters or make it more difficult for them to recover.

Besides that I do not know much about G&W nor am I afraid of down throw to Judge or his Up-air, although I have no idea how to DI the up-air.

-

I love fighting Dr. Mario over Mario because he is such a powerhouse and he has Dr Tornado back as a special move which is so exciting to me.
His f-air and Super Jump Punch are very strong. It's a shame that his recovery was nerfed though.

If Dr Mario manages to get trapped in Ness's PK Fire, ROB's Gyro or another multi-hit or low knockback move when he uses Super Jump Punch, he can hit-cancel the first hit and rack up 30 or more damage within 1-3 seconds.

 

[PK Bash]

Here's a cool G&W tidbit I learnt this week:
The strength of Oil Panic is relative to the strength of the projectile it absorbs.
I can't believe I've been playing Smash for god knows how long and I never knew that. It means that Ness can pressure G&W offstage with PK Thunder and if G&W uses Bucket, fill the bucket using the tail of PKT or something and the Oil will be piss-weak. And if you have a move strong enough to fill Bucket with a single hit, apparently that always OHKOs.
Perhaps I'm just ignorant, but I thought this was pretty cool and maybe someone else didn't know it either.

Can't mention Mr Game & Watch without mentioning Australia's Extra. I'm also reminded of a Mexican player named Regi who did pretty well at an EVO once, though I'm not sure if he is still maining the character or even if he still plays the game lol. Someone who follows the Mexican scene might be able to help me out with that?

I'm curious to know what other notable players there are of these two characters, since both are rather obscure at any level play across the tournament scene as far as I'm aware.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I just left G&W discord with a lot
of info.

The minimim amount of damage a bucket can do is 18%. The max is 60%

These 2 videos explain that and more.

This video goes in-depth on judge.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Can't mention Mr Game & Watch without mentioning Australia's Extra. I'm also reminded of a Mexican player named Regi who did pretty well at an EVO once, though I'm not sure if he is still maining the character or even if he still plays the game lol. Someone who follows the Mexican scene might be able to help me out with that?

I'm curious to know what other notable players there are of these two characters, since both are rather obscure at any level play across the tournament scene as far as I'm aware.

*sigh* Regi is (as far as I know) the #1 Mr. Game & Watch in the world, and has been for quite some time. Some other notable G&W's include KOSSismoss and Songn. Extra's on that list, but I'm not sure he's that high.

 

[SmolNozomi]

G&W is very strong if used correctly and strategically. To quote from Fawful's Minion, "if you're balls-y enough to upgrade your Glass Cannon to PAPER BAZOOKA, you've got an interesting Smash career ahead of you."

Nearly all of his attacks do respectable damage and knockback, but due to his low frame data, it makes them very easy to punish. Especially on shield. All of his aerials can be stopped by shield with no reasonable pressure other than Judge 9 or 3. This is why he struggles to get good results, but if you place your cards right and bait out an opening, he can become a force to be reckoned with.

Up-Smash has ridiculous invincibility frames on the top, F-Smash is basically Mario's, and D-Smash is effective no matter the spot. Get sweet spotted and you will be flung up, allowing G&W to either follow up or K.O. you. Get sourspotted and you will be semi spiked, and with enough percentage, that will be enough to end you or at least force you to recover, with the danger of him following up with some attacks.

Although it is strong, Oil Panic is hard to use correctly, as you may be punished due to the ending lag. (Hilarious to use with Samus, Ness, and Mario/Luigi)

Fire and B-air are brutally if you hit the wall and can't tech due to their high knockback.

Down Throw combos are damaging, and you have the risk of getting Judged of your horrible decisions, but it is likely not to happen.

G&W is strong, yes, but he can mostly stopped with shield and dodging, and his light weight allows him to be skyrocket to the blast zone.

But don't be discouraged G&W mains, find a way around the counters, and give them the deadly paper cuts they oh-so deserve.

 

[Molk]

Nearly all of his attacks do respectable damage and knockback, but due to his low frame data, it makes them very easy to punish. Especially on shield. All of his aerials can be stopped by shield with no reasonable pressure other than Judge 9 or 3.

This is an extremely common misconception that i've been seeing for literally years. G&W's aerials aren't particularly unsafe on block honestly considering Fair, Bair, Uair, and Nair (Dair is actually unsafe) range from slightly minus to slightly plus on shield drop. The thing that you have to remember with these moves is that if the opponent knows what they're doing, they're going to be at least attempting to space their aerials instead of just hitting your shield at point blank range. Considering G&W's Fair, Bair, and Nair have at least some form of disjoint on them, it's perfectly possible to space his aerials outside of range of an easy punish. Uair's horizontal range isn't the best, but it's actually the safest of G&W's aerials on shield numerically (both hits, second hit is safer than the first) and can be tough for some characters to punish when crossed up. In fact, speaking of crossups, G&W thrives off of them considering the fact that his Bair and Nair are capable of crossing up shield rather easily, adding on another level of mixups to his aerial game. Of course, you could argue that you won't be able to land perfectly timed aerials on shield every time, but with G&W it's easier than you'd think to at least get close. Bair has a landing hitbox that's only slightly minus on shield, which is pretty good considering how far away from your opponent you can space the move, and because of it and the lingering hitboxes that Bair has, G&W isn't forced to use the move right before he lands to get optimal shield safety. On top of that, due to the FAFs of his aerials, it's possible to land with desirable hitboxes of Nair (at least close to) optimally. As an example, if G&W goes for a rising FH Bair or Uair and immediately buffers Nair, he'll consistently land with the third hit of Nair. Also, of course, considering how rewarding his grab is, tomahawk grabs are also an option to keep opponents on their toes.

When it comes to being safe on shield on the ground, G&W still has a few options. Usmash and Jab 1 are by far the most notable. An uncharged Usmash is quite safe (+4/-3!) and mixing up your charge timings slightly can help you get around opponents trying to perfect shield the move. Jab 1 is tough for a lot of characters to punish out of shield if spaced well, and considering it's frame 4 with a FAF of 16, it's also difficult to react to.


TL;DR: G&W's aerials aren't particularly unsafe on shield as long as the player using him has a decent concept of both spacing and crossups, and he has a few nice ways to safely hit shields on the ground too.

I'll probably post some more stuff later, but i just wanted to throw that misconception out of the window as quickly as possible.

 

[SmolNozomi]

TL;DR: G&W's aerials aren't particularly unsafe on shield as long as the player using him has a decent concept of both spacing and crossups, and he has a few nice ways to safely hit shields on the ground too.

Okay, yeah, you're correct. I haven't used G&W as much as I have wanted to so i'm still learning new things. That, and the fact that I was a bit pissed for fighting 4 Cloud mains and a Dr Mario main in a row.
What happens to me is that I go for an aerial, they perfect shield, and punish with grab or any other strong move and all of their other stuff.
But most of the time i'm just bad, so it's my fault for not succeeding.

 

[Nobie]

I was looking at Elegant's Luigi MU chart and the fact that he has G&W as even. For all of G&W's faults, this makes sense to me because G&W has a lot of things that Luigi dislikes. He has vastly superior aerial mobility, significant disjoint on most moves, and an extremely good recovery that can turn the tables on edgeguarders. While Luigi has the weight and frame data advantage, it's as if G&W runs counter to Luigi's core game plan in key areas.

 

[Kofu]

I was looking at Elegant's Luigi MU chart and the fact that he has G&W as even. For all of G&W's faults, this makes sense to me because G&W has a lot of things that Luigi dislikes. He has vastly superior aerial mobility, significant disjoint on most moves, and an extremely good recovery that can turn the tables on edgeguarders. While Luigi has the weight and frame data advantage, it's as if G&W runs counter to Luigi's core game plan in key areas.

Game & Watch has a few very strong aspects that he can abuse rather heavily in most matchups, but just falls short in a significant number of others. I'm too tired to do a proper writeup right now but said shortcomings add up and compound with his light weight to give him the feeling of being so close to being good but, uh, falling flat.

I feel like his worst MUs are probably Cloud, Sonic, Diddy, and Corrin in no particular order.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Right.
This week: Doc and G&W
MistressRemilia

I've taken the bait and will now participate into this thread! ( Kek, thanks for the highlight though )

So, since Mr.Game&Watch seems like the prefered subject, i'll be talking about my thoughts on the current state of the Game&Watch Metagame, what is there left to do for us, how far could we possibly climb up if success is reached.

Tl;Dr There's a lot left to be done, both in exploiting the strong part of Game&Watch's mobility specs & properties as a means of potentially winning the neutral game & getting into advantage state through various ways, while also optimizing the advantage state of Game&Watch to a level of consistency i believe should have been reached long ago.

So, as some of you may already know, Game&Watch possesses fairly valuable mobility traits: He's fairly mobile in the Air, and has one of the better Air Accelerations out there, his dash to neutral is also one of the best. With these traits combined, this allows Game&Watch to aleviate the somewhat poor shield safety of his aerials through various trickeries such as crossups, multi hit move cancel through landing, or just spacing your aerials. On top of that, Game&Watch's small size & decent enough crouch enables some fairly strong anti air strategies: It really doesnt take much for Game&Watch to just punish his opponent's mispaced aerials or approaching attempt through Neutral Air, which happens to be a combo starter and a seriously underrated & insane move in Game&Watch's arsenal. The fact that it combos into itself for 30+% while still having a decently big hitbox enabling the aforementioned anti airing/punish abilities makes it wonderfully strong. In the same vein as Neutral Air, UpSmash is also an actual combo starter into Neutral Air or other aerials at Low%, which renders the exploit of Game&Watch's invincibility on UpSmash even more useful than it already is. Game&Watch's kit overall generally feels like it has a lot of potential that isn't exploited to its fullest ( I've never been a huge fan of Game&Watch's Fair, but with his Air Speed & Acceleration, it makes for a respectable poke in neutral. Game&Watch's DownTilt will usually remain unstaled throughout the match, but when it is used, starting from High% a bit below 90%, this move becomes a serious threat: If it doesnt kill you, it sets you up in a really bad spot which may allow Game&Watch to edgeguard you somewhat easily. If your disadvantage is not Meta Knight tiers of versatile & efficient, chances are you'll get get edgeguarded and killed sooner than you think. Game&Watch can UpB while keeping his jump, cancel the UpB with a B move, to then be able to use the jump you've kept: While perhaps sounding gimmicky, this is a very valuable mixup that will surely help against ledge trappers such as Diddy. Finally, Game&Watch's awkward safety isn't limited to his UpSmash, it does extend to his FSmash & DSmash, and although they're also not the best frame data wise, they're respectable enough and can trick opponents as much as USmash. I do have my preference to DSmash though, nailing the right spacing to ledge trap characters with it feels good & can kill real early. )

A lot of these neutral options kind of seem to go towards the biggest improvement the Game&Watch metagame needs to think upon & apply: The variety. A lot of time when i'm watching Game&Watch mains play, they play the character as if he was a grappler: The transitioning between straight neutral game and attempts at reaching advantage states are not smooth and the opponent usually knows it and doesnt allow them to get what they want, thus they're losing the match. All of the aforementioned options provide much needed variety to a character that has the option to go beyond a frail glass cannon. Now if only they could at least nail down the Advantage part...

As i've mentioned, Neutral Air is one of the best moves in Game&Watch's arsenal: It combos into itself which renders it the ideal combo move. Despite this, i'm still seeing too much Mario DThrow to UpB Tiers of Bad combos at anything but Mid%, as if they hadnt taken the time to learn Game&Watch's Bread & Butter combos. I'm not even talking about the possibilities that mixups could bring into Game&Watch's already good combo game, as the likes of landing with Nair ( which, if done correctly, will leave your opponent positioned right in front of you, for a regrab ) or Game&Watch's landing UpAir 1, enable even more combos. There isn't really an excuse as to why Game&Watch mains aren't nailing down the B&Bs.

With this out of the way, i would like to talk a word or two about matchups: I think Game&Watch has pretty strong matchups, could be somewhat niche against some relevant characters, like the aforementioned plumbers or Ryu. Besides Sonic, i really don't think Game&Watch can't overcome any opponent, especially with all the trickery he's capable of, and that most players wouldn't be ready for. Some other matchups like Diddy do remain tough, but they're clearly in the realm of the winnable