Character Discussion Thread (This week: Peach and Falco)

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,395
#1
EDIT: Temp Hiatus because of the lack of discussion

Welcome to the Character Discussion Thread!
Here, we will be discussing a different character and their place in the meta each week. The character list is randomized, with the order (with links to their discussions) at the end of the post.

Topics can include:
  • What are your general thoughts on the character?
  • Who are some of the most notable players for the character?
  • What are some of the things holding the character back in the current meta? What are some things that are making the character successful in the current meta?
  • What are the character's best and worst matchups?
and so forth. Anything that promotes discussion is fine, just be sure to explain your thoughts.

Remember to be nice, and that this thread is ultimately a place to gather peoples' thoughts about different characters.

King Dedede
Ike

Bowser Jr.
Ryu
ROB
Villager

Greninja
Cloud

Dr. Mario
Mr. Game & Watch

Robin
Palutena

Bayonetta
Samus

Donkey Kong
Wii Fit Trainer
Mega Man
Dark Pit

Roy
Yoshi
Peach
Falco
Zero Suit Samus
Captain Falcon
Marth
Ganondorf
Fox
Toon Link
Kirby
Shulk
Lucas
Lucina
Mewtwo
Diddy Kong
Corrin
Olimar
Charizard
Pit
Duck Hunt
Zelda
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Bowser
Pac-Man
Ness
Sonic
Rosalina & Luma
Meta Knight
Mario
Lucario
Link
Wario
Little Mac
Sheik

EDIT: since one per week would take forever, we're doing two. This week, it's King Dedede and Ike.
 
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SJMistery

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#3
  • What are your general thoughts on the character?
Both should be bottom five, they are terrible once the opponent learns the matchup AKA when it stops jumping into your attacks.
  • Who are some of the most notable players for the character?
Girthquake I guess? Those two aren't exactly common on competitive play, and for good reason.
  • What are some of the things holding the character back in the current meta? What are some things that are making the character successful in the current meta?
The fact that they are slow as slugs and have no way to deal with defensive playstyles, that they are easy to combo, have linear and gimpable recoveries...
  • What are the character's best and worst matchups?
Best? Guess Ganondorf. Worst? Basically anybody with projectiles or reliable ways to approach and combo you. Ike's absolute worst probably Greninja and Mario that can do both and to add insult to injury can easily gimp his Up-B. Dedede's absolute worst, Megaman.
 

MercuryPenny

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#4
why would dedede's worst matchup be mega man instead of bayonetta? bullet climax obliterates his neutral game, half of what he does can be witch timed on reaction, and he gets comboed into oblivion because he's a superheavyweight fastfaller. she can also work her way around gordo sticks and ledge traps pretty easily, so not only do his weaknesses kill him but his strengths are nullified.

also ike is faster than you give him credit for, but only because of nair, down tilt, and grab. ike's low mid tier
 
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
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#5
I've been spending a lot of time pondering what exactly it would take to fix King Dedede, since we can all agree he's just not usable in his current state, but I believe that, deep down, dedede has the potential to be a decent character, but it's smothered under layers of bad hitboxes, poor frame data, and BS. However, I'd argue there's only one real change that would have to be made for dedede to be usable. Sure, there are lots of QoL changes that could be made (remove dtilt blindspot, add hitboxes to fair, make ftilt connect reliably, shoot the intern responsible for creating jab 1), and while these changes would go a long way, nothing would help so much as reducing gordo's endlag.

Gordo is one of the most versatile moves in the game and is a vital part of dedede's game plan, but it's also a huge, 60+ frame commitment, so not being able to use it in the neutral holds him back terribly. He can only safely toss it out if his opponent is across the stage, at a distance where it isn't threatening.

But gordo has so much potential. When used optimally it can make dedede very hard to land against even with his slow movement speed because he has gordo covering any options he's not. However, that only works if dedede has already won neutral, and, well, that's not easy for him.

Tbh I don't know how much faster gordo would need to end to make it a usable neutral tool without making it imbalanced, but I know there's a sweet spot somewhere. If gordo could be used somewhat freely in the neutral, suddenly it opens up so many options for him. He could use it to force approaches, or to cover an approach, or he could bait opponents into reflecting it and then either reflect it back or just slip past it for a free bit.

Regardless, gordo's unnecessary limitations on its use is the biggest issue dedede faces in terms of being viable, and if these issues were ever addressed, dedede might rise all the way up to low tier one day.

Also make gordo stick to walls 100% of the time and, with the decreased end lag on top of it, he'd be mid tier, cuz recovering against a gordo stick is nigh impossible.
 
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Lord Dio

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#6
I am of the opinion, like many others, that Dedede is the worst character in the game.
A friend who I talk to regularly used to main him and talkign to me about him said "the best way to avoid his ledgetraps is you have ledge, is to stay on ledge. wait out the trap, get up, and go back to beating him".
The more I think abotu that advice the more it seems to make sense.
Tbh I think Dedede would be lucky to have one winning matchup, but imo he really doesn't.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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#7
why would dedede's worst matchup be mega man instead of bayonetta? bullet climax obliterates his neutral game, half of what he does can be witch timed on reaction, and he gets comboed into oblivion because he's a superheavyweight fastfaller. she can also work her way around gordo sticks and ledge traps pretty easily, so not only do his weaknesses kill him but his strengths are nullified.

also ike is faster than you give him credit for, but only because of nair, down tilt, and grab. ike's low mid tier
Bayonetta is probably really bad for him but atleast she is light so the off chance he does hit her it can be troublesome, he does have some range as well and while Bayo has massive hitboxes she doesn't have alot of disjointed moves

But Megaman is his worst MU by far. Lemons literally prevent him from moving without using punishable rolls he's too big and moves too slow. Lemons completely remove any possibility of using Gordo ever. MegaMan never has to commit to anything at all, just Lemon camp and metal blade and use disjointed aerials to keep him away. Plus he's heavy and survives long himself so D3 has to work even harder to kill him.

As far as D3 goes there is a reason even with all the diversity in S4 you only see him doing anything over wifi. I mean he's not a hopeless cause since he does still have players who do well in their regions but he's outclassed very hard by just about everyone. He still has plenty of tricks and tools to help him succeed but actually implementing them requires talent and a lot of work.
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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#8
Looks like the thread was a success so far, nice job setting it up! I think having time to focus on 2 characters a week without any interruptions will really help. Also,if you feel you know a knowledgeable main on the characters being discussed,feel free to tag them. It helps them be alerted to when their character's week is up, to provide us with some knowledge.

You don't hear much at all about DDD and Ike because well...

General thoughts? DDD is garbage, let's be as blunt as his hammer. Combo food, poor frame data (D tilt is his fastest move, but a great d tilt), no player base, and double edged Gordos. But he does have a nice D throw, and great vertical survivability, ranking at the top I believe. Gordos can be versatile for ledge traps, but they don't always stick onto the edge. It's literally RNG for that, it should be guaranteed if you throw it at a certain angle. Then that poor air speed coupled with tiny jumps doesn't help much for mobility. And talk about some poor hitboxes, getting that Dair spike is incredibly tough when the spike area is the size of a thimble. He doesn't have any kill confirms or many reliable kill moves. D smash is the only one that comes to mind. D tilt will be staled in neutral probably.

I can't think of anything that promotes him in the meta because he doesn't have a discovered niche yet. There are no MUs where a pocket DDD is necessary. Meanwhile there are multiple good Megaman mains, Sonic mains that make his life difficult. Apparently though, he can be a pain for Sheik, according to a dedicated Sheik main I know. Her needles not filled charged don't break the threshold to knock Gordos back, and since she utilizes Uair and U smash for vertical kills, it hurts her ability to snuff him out off the top, relying on bouncing fish (but this is pretty easy, he's a big hitbox with no mobility in the air). Also she can fair juggle him all day long. But he will live a long time.

Playerbase is amongst the worst in smash 4. Girthquake doesn't go to Tournaments and Big D, who lives in my region, dropped him for Mario/Falcon. From the few locals I've been to and according to PGR posts, DDD is not listed. He just whips him out for very occasional friendlies. He has no representation.

This post got longer than I thought, so I'll write up on Ike later. That character has a bit of redemption...
 
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#9
Gonna provide just notable placements/players that are discussed each week hopefully. Going to try and stay within the season but if it is not in the season I will mention it. Also the results will try and avoid monthlies and weeklies unless they were very big (like big MSMs)

Gonna do DDD now and post Ike later

Zaki:4dedede:- 81st on Japan Rankings.
Notable wins: Tsu~:4falcon:, Ri-ma:4tlink:, Compact:4mewtwo:, Nasubi:4wario:(2016 second half)

Notable Placings: 5th at Sumabato 19, 5th and Shulla-Bra XI, 25th at Sumabato 21, 33rd at Sumabato 22, 49th at Umebura 27

Big D:4dedede:
Notable wins:Tyrant:4metaknight:(won a game with Dedede and won the set with another character)

Notable Placings: 65th at Genesis 4

Note: Since Big D plays multiple characters and has used Dedede less and less, it’s hard to find proper information about when he has used Dedede for his big wins.

Girthquake:4dedede:
Notable Wins: None found
Notable Placings:13th at Port Priority (First half 2017)

El_Bardo:4dedede:
Notable wins: (Unable to tell who is “notable” in good portions of Europe and thus this part will be incomplete but currently looking more into it)
Notable Placings: 13th at BEAST 7 (First half 2017), 49th at Syndicate 2017, 13th at Icarus III

Bryce:4dedede:
Notable Wins: Shoyo James:4luigi::4diddy:, Great Gonzalez:4ness:, Vivid:4corrinf::4lucario:, Biddy:4tlink:
Notable Placings: In progress/none really found

PWNAGEPOLICE:4dedede:
Notable Wins: In progress/none really found
Notable Placings: 33rd Shine 2016, 4th GUMS 18
 
Joined
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Messages
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#10
  • What are your general thoughts on the character?
Both should be bottom five,
I highly disagree with Ike being bottom 5. He has a useable neutral game. He can actually touch a shield without being punished, his grab game is threatening enough to demand that the enemy not hold shield against him, and his large aerials demand respect. He has a decent landing mixup in side special, and his recovery can be difficult to intercept. Side special can sometimes allow him to skip the ledge altogether. He is loaded down with kill power, obviously.

Tell me, who do you think is worse than Ike?

I think his toughest matchups are those characters that can smother him with frame data - characters like Sheik, Fox, and Mario. Bonus to Mario and Shiek for trashing his recovery. Greninja also can destroy his recovery, but he can't smother him with frame data, so he has to run away and give Ike chances with rage. I still think he has the advantage in the neutral, but it shouldnt be as bad as against the previously mentioned 3.
 

Nobie

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#11
I can't possibly imagine Ike as bottom 5, if only for the simple reason that he does well against all other swordsmen, imo. They're not necessarily winning matchups, but I don't think many sword characters find it pleasant to fight against Ike's giant range and throw combos.

As for Dedede, the tricky thing with the king is that he's designed to be the most resilient character in the game, but that comes at a cost. Imagine separating Shield Shulk into his own character and having to balance that.

It's the classic dilemma of Smash: how do you make a character that's supposed to be slow and strong without making them collapse under rapid fire from quicker opponents? The solution seems to be giving heavy characters speed in some areas, but not all. Dedede doesn't have any of that, aside from arguably his frame 6 down tilt.

If I were to give him any fixes, it would be to improve his multi-hit hitboxes to reduce the effectiveness of SDI. The rapid improvement of players' SDI skills (thanks in part to fighting Bayo) also screws over Dedede. At first, his multi-jab into ender was potentially a stock ender. Now, it seems pretty danged escapable.

I don't think Dedede necessarily needs a "special niche," like some matchup where he does oddly well in. If he can at least force an even matchup as a pocket or submain, that's probably good enough.
 
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#12
DDD just requires a special player to win with him on a consistent competitive basis.

The same way Snake Eyez goes hard with Zangief, Bonchwn went with Nash, That one DeeJay main in usf4 (kitasenju?), and KojiOG went with T hawk, DDD will need a really solid player who blends well with what he has.
 
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#13
Ike is rather fun. I don't think he's the worst character or really even a terrible character. He's certainly not the best. His f-air is a good zoning tool. B-air is a decent kill move, although it does seem short in terms of distance. His jabs are still effective. His attacks are heavy-hitting and he is heavy as well. Ike's recovery, from what I've heard, has been improved. Side special can lead to up special. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I know Fox and Falco can do that, but they're not the current discussion. Still, Ike's recovery seems subpar.

As for the most notable players, there's Rango and Ryo. Or that's what I recall. I don't know if they still use Ike. Ike suffers a lot from characters who are too fast or campy. Characters like Sheik or Mario might not hit as hard as him, but they can rack up a lot of damage. It's the weight difference that might help Ike against these two, and I don't think Ike is going to just go down by being forced off the stage. Still, there are other characters like Link, Toon Link, Samus, Mega Man who could just camp him. After all, Ike has to approach.
 

Nemesis561

Smash Apprentice
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#14
DDD has one of the most atrocious neutrals in the game by far. To anybody who has a lot of experience with this character, what exactly is he supposed to be doing in neutral? I suppose walking to have access to f tilt is not bad but then again, f tilt is not even a safe poke (maybe if max spaced its somewhat safe? Idk someone let me know).
 

Nemesis561

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#16
Jr’s main problem is that his gameplan is completely one dimensional. He almost completely relies on his side B to get anything started and he thrives against players that flat out don’t know the matchup or feel uncomfortable fighting Jr. (He’s a strange character so some people at low levels of play don’t like fighting him)

This is why Jr at a low to mid level of competition can do good work because when his gameplan does work, Jr can look pretty scary with high damage racking combos, some good aerials that are strong and have nice big lingering hitboxes, pretty consistent kill combo that can start killing as early as 65-70% depending on certain factors, and a decent item in Mecha Koopa that can control the stage and help with approaches and be pretty versatile overall.

But once you play players who are comfortable fighting Jr and know how to exploit his hollow gameplan, that’s when things turn bad for Jr. his ground game is awful, his tilts are not very good, his jab 1 is ok but leads to nothing, his rapid jab is abysmal, he gets basically nothing out of any sort of movement tech, his grab is awful (pivot grab is pretty nice though) and even if you land it you don’t get much out of it. His smash attacks however are nice, f smash can be pretty safe to throw out and is really strong, and up smash is a good out of shield killing option.

Jr is really bad guys, and the future looks bleak because his meta has stagnated. I don’t think he’s quite bottom 5 tho because he has a few things going For him, but yeah thinks don’t look great lol
I wrote this in the competitive discussion thread about :4bowserjr:. He’s probably the least talked about character in the game so I’m happy to answer any questions about the character since I know Many don’t know a lot about him.

At the moment Jr has like no high level rep, I think Vicegrip (SoCal) is inactive right now, Taternator (SoCal) still gets some decent results at the local level but I know he’s been using :4mewtwo:a lot more lately. Jade is mostly a WiFi player, she does well in Nairos tournaments for whatever that’s worth. Bowser jr does have a decent amount of rep at the local level, especially in SoCal, Canada and the midwest. You can find him scattered around some PRs around the world here and there
 
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#17
I guess I'll prime discussion about the other one. Ryu is one of the most controversial suspects on the 4BR for 2 tier lists in a row. The argument is that he doesn't produce high placings at A tier or above tourneys. His current rep is Locus (who just got sponsored), Darkshad, Takera, Venom and the occasional Trela dipping his feet into the Smash scene. It's possible the acquirement of a sponsor will bolster Locus' placings (and Ryu as well). If Trela makes a full fledged return (which is in doubt), that will help too. And Shad just needs to keep up his current upwards momentum. I feel somewhat optimistic about Ryu earning his place in the upcoming seasons.

Edit: A future full of more Bayo and Cloud could be a good one for Ryu. The Bayo MU isn't as bad as perceived, thanks to how early we can jank her. A heavy grab based game will bypass her Witch Tine shenanigans. This makes me optimistic about Ryu's future vs her. In addition, there's a theory that Ryu can become Cloud's worst MU at top level. Whether this proves to be true remains to be seen.
 
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Joined
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#18
How can ryu be anything close to cloud's worst matchup? He can barely touch cloud through that sword. His mobility is subpar, so cloud can space on him for free. As far as I'm aware, ryu doesn't do anything special against him either. Cloud is a mildy heavy fast faller, too, so ryu's main kill move is less effective on him.
 
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SJMistery

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#19
Cloud's worst matchup has to be either Mario or Greninja. Being able to consistently gimp his recovery and camp him to hell and back to get chip damage without allowing him to charge Limit is a tremendous disadvantage for Cloud.
 
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#20
To me, Bowser Jr is an incomplete character. One is because of his teleporting bugs that are still in the game and the other is because he was just barely completed on time so I think that played apart in how bad he is.
I'm not a fan of his moveset either because I wanted it to be based off of his Super Mario Sunshine appearance instead of just a final smash.

As for Ryu, I find him to be a fun character to fight against and watch. I think his Shoryuken kills are exaggerated but I get hype when I see them and when I get hit with them and lose a stock. I can't get mad at Ryu, but I would like it if his players used more Street Fighter strategies like techniques, mindgames, and combos. I have heard that Locus uses negative edge for he up/down tilt confirms into shoryuken.
 
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#21
Just finished checking with other Ryus. Locus believes that Ryu can be Cloud's worst MU for the following reasons:
1) Ryu can essentially drag him offstage with combos.
2) Clouds spacing with aerials theoretically give up stage control while in the air. This gives Ryu the opportunity to get in and combo him as stated in point 1.
Again, this is just a theory by one player. The latter point is arguably flawed. This doesn't change the fact that Cloud could easily get knocked offstage, or even lose his stock, if Ryu gets in (thanks to being combo fodder).
 

maybe.

Smash Cadet
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#22
I guess I'll prime discussion about the other one. Ryu is one of the most controversial suspects on the 4BR for 2 tier lists in a row. The argument is that he doesn't produce high placings at A tier or above tourneys. His current rep is Locus (who just got sponsored), Darkshad, Takera, Venom and the occasional Trela dipping his feet into the Smash scene. It's possible the acquirement of a sponsor will bolster Locus' placings (and Ryu as well). If Trela makes a full fledged return (which is in doubt), that will help too. And Shad just needs to keep up his current upwards momentum. I feel somewhat optimistic about Ryu earning his place in the upcoming seasons.

Edit: A future full of more Bayo and Cloud could be a good one for Ryu. The Bayo MU isn't as bad as perceived, thanks to how early we can jank her. A heavy grab based game will bypass her Witch Tine shenanigans. This makes me optimistic about Ryu's future vs her. In addition, there's a theory that Ryu can become Cloud's worst MU at top level. Whether this proves to be true remains to be seen.
Can you offer any more explanation as to why you think Ryu is a troublesome match up for bayo? As a bayo main I've always found Ryu to be a really easy match up for me because of how easily she can combo him and how easily she can get around his focus attack landings with her abundance of multi hit aerials. The only real issue I've had against Ryus is sometimes it's tough to put him away and then his rage builds up and shoryuken nonsense occurs but I honestly haven't had a very hard time playing around shoryuken in most cases by just being smart and avoiding unsafe options on shield. Maybe I just haven't faced enough high level Ryus (most of my experience against him is on for glory). But I mostly see Ryu as a character who can dominate in certain match ups but ultimately is held back by having bad match ups against high tiers.
 

Nemesis561

Smash Apprentice
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#23
Cloud's worst matchup has to be either Mario or Greninja. Being able to consistently gimp his recovery and camp him to hell and back to get chip damage without allowing him to charge Limit is a tremendous disadvantage for Cloud.
This isn’t the thread for it, but Mario is not one of Clouds worst matchups. On the contrary, it’s probably one of Marios worst
 
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#24
Can you offer any more explanation as to why you think Ryu is a troublesome match up for bayo? As a bayo main I've always found Ryu to be a really easy match up for me because of how easily she can combo him and how easily she can get around his focus attack landings with her abundance of multi hit aerials. The only real issue I've had against Ryus is sometimes it's tough to put him away and then his rage builds up and shoryuken nonsense occurs but I honestly haven't had a very hard time playing around shoryuken in most cases by just being smart and avoiding unsafe options on shield. Maybe I just haven't faced enough high level Ryus (most of my experience against him is on for glory). But I mostly see Ryu as a character who can dominate in certain match ups but ultimately is held back by having bad match ups against high tiers.
Ryu isn't so much a troublesome match for Bayonetta as much as volatile. They both have ways of killing each other early (granted, Bayo can kill Ryu earlier if he winds up offstage or gets killed off the top). It's that Ryu's punish game can make Bayo players more liberal with their Witch Times. In which case Bayo will have to second guess what option to use if Ryu is close. The wrong choice can lead to huge damage or a stock.
In addition, I think that Bullet Climax isn't a big issue for Ryu in neutral. We can hang back where it won't hit us. Bullet Arts might hit, but it gives us (A) a chance to approach, and (B) more percent which can bite her back later in the form of rage. I think this MU will end up as slight advantage for Bayo or possibly even as the metagame progresses.

Edit: Okay, even is a stretch in retrospect. But I am confident slight advantage to Bayo will be the MU in the future.
 
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SJMistery

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#25
This isn’t the thread for it, but Mario is not one of Clouds worst matchups. On the contrary, it’s probably one of Marios worst
I will take your word on Mario, as I rarely ever use him. Still think that it should not be much different to the Ryu vs Cloud matchup due to Cloud being walking zero-to-death combo bait.

On topic again. One big thing that holds back Bowser Jr is not being able to re-use his Up B after getting hit in a majority of situations. That means every single trade will go against his favor, and it seriously compromises the safety of any airdodge, aerial, or basically anything he does offstage to try to cover himself, as unlike everybody else (barring Yoshi, who has the exact same problem due to not having a recovery Up-B), Bowser Jr can't afford to go for a read, use his up-B, and take a weak hit on purpose to re-use his Up-B and get back onstage from a less favorable position.

Case in point, M2K vs Salem finals Greninja vs Cloud, fourth match, M2K willingly took a hit from the Water Shuriken to save his jump and the Limit. Another example are the bomb recoveries.

Bowser Jr can't do something like that. If he is offstage and he gets hit, even from his own held mechakoopa, unless he used his Up-B a long time ago, it won't reset and he will fall to his doom. And the worst part is that on top of not properly reseting on hit, this Up-B has trouble snapping the ledge, making Bowser Jr's recovery on par with Dr Mario's, non-limit Cloud's and Little Mac's in (lack of) reliablity and safety.


TLDR: Bowser Jr Up B is terrible, one of the worst in the game, and if it was faster and did properly reset on hit, Bowser Jr would be twice as useful as possibly even viable.
 
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#26
I've played bowser jr. and his biggest issues are not just his easily gimpable recovery but the fact that his gameplan revolves around using his tools to offset his weaknesses and sadly he doesn't have enough tools or the right tools to do that.
Mechakoopa is ok for a throwable item, but it can be intercepted and there are other item style specials with better effects.
Clown kart dash is probably his best move, chaining into a lot of his aerials and some of his specials. However jr. practically has to rely on this one move to get anything going which means it's going to stale early.
Cannonball shot can't have it's charge held and it's fairly slow for a projectile unless fully charged.
Abandon ship has already been discussed in detail, unless it's used right before an opponent attacks it's not going to do much and as a recovery it's risky to use.
As for his smashes and tilts, his tilts are ok but they won't net a kill and despite coming out quickly they don't pack enough oomph to use as a 'get off me' option.
Jr's fsmash is great, lasting a while and doing good damage, the range is poor however.
His dsmash has a blind spot right where jr's sitting and his usmash while being a good anti-air doesn't work well on grounded opponents unless they're large.
TL; DR jr's problems lie in not having the tools needed to offset all the problems he has as discussed above, in fact some of his tools seem to do more to hinder him rather than help him.
 

SJMistery

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#27
His dsmash has a blind spot right where jr's sitting and his usmash while being a good anti-air doesn't work well on grounded opponents unless they're large.
As a Greninja main suffering from the exact same problem in the DSmash, and also the FSmash and Fair, I can only say that I know that feel bro, and "SAKURAI, WHY DID YOU DO THIS!".
 
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Zeratrix
#28
Now I'm just going to throw this out here, i'm a zard main and I'm prone to spamming rock smash and smashes. I like my smash attacks to have power and range. Jr's smashes....have neither to an extent of course trying to compare the smash of a super heavyweight to a character who isn't one is probably unfair, but I find that when a character is relatively slow it needs specials or attacks that cover a lot of range and ground like projectiles.
 

SJMistery

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#29
Sort of like Robin and Corrin you mean?
Yeah, at the very least the cannonball should be faster and safer to use.
 

PK Bash

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#30
Some stray ramblings:
-Bjr also has Magi as a notable player. Puts in some serious work in Europe e.g. 49th at Syndicate 2017, 25th at Albion 2

-Heracr055 - I appreciate that's probably only a snippet of what Locus actually thinks about the mu (at least I hope it is) but... that logic could apply to Ness and that matchup is awful for Ness. In fact, it could apply to a lot of characters - even some with better edgeguarding, ledgetrapping, general neutral vs Cloud. Again I can cite Ness for this (maybe not general neutral? Then again, maybe...) but Ness has a pretty rough matchup with Cloud so I dunno. I guess I'm just saying I want to know much more before I'm convinced Ryu does better than literally everyone else against Cloud?

-Bjr's problems extend beyond his recovery - his neutral has a number of holes in it, for a start. e.g. how he can neither force an approach nor approach particularly well himself, how a lot of his kit fills a job but doesn't fill that job particularly well - stuff like that. He has some fairly decent tools for pressuring shields I guess? some nice buttons for footsies maybe... even if his overall footsies game is nothing to shout about.

-Nathan Richardson: Bjr's fsmash has some nice range on it, and is overall quite a safe move. Packs a punch too!
 
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#31
Ness doesn't have the close range tools necessary to outbox or challenge Cloud's grounded options. By comparison, Ryu has superior frame data and buttons to beat out Cloud's grounded options. In addition, heavy utilt beats out Cloud's lingering dair.
And yes, I probably have a fragment of Locus' reasoning for that opinion. Hopefully he can demonstrate what he means soon!
 

bc1910

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#32
Now I'm just going to throw this out here, i'm a zard main and I'm prone to spamming rock smash and smashes. I like my smash attacks to have power and range. Jr's smashes....have neither to an extent of course trying to compare the smash of a super heavyweight to a character who isn't one is probably unfair, but I find that when a character is relatively slow it needs specials or attacks that cover a lot of range and ground like projectiles.
All of Jr's smashes are quite powerful. Fsmash has good range and low ending lag. Usmash's incredible speed makes up for its lack of range, particularly as it's mainly used as a hard punish OoS.

Charizard's Usmash is good (for different reasons). Dsmash is negligibly better than Jr's, both are pretty poor. Fsmash is crappy. Jr has better smashes overall.
 
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Zeratrix
#33
All of Jr's smashes are quite powerful. Fsmash has good range and low ending lag. Usmash's incredible speed makes up for its lack of range, particularly as it's mainly used as a hard punish OoS.

Charizard's Usmash is good (for different reasons). Dsmash is negligibly better than Jr's, both are pretty poor. Fsmash is crappy. Jr has better smashes overall.
Zard's dsmash is much better simply due to a lack of a blind spot, it comes out slower than jr's but it has more range and the lack of a blindspot plus the fact that it hits low and is one of the few moves zard can use to knock opponents at a low angle means it should be used more.
I don't use fsmash unless i'm sure it'll connect with the opponent, it has excellent KB, power and range but zard can overshoot his mark and the laggy startup and endlag means you're better off using dsmash than fsmash in those situations (and if you opponent isn't at kill percentages why bother? Knock them around with a jab combo or rock smash instead)
 

bc1910

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#34
Zard's dsmash is much better simply due to a lack of a blind spot, it comes out slower than jr's but it has more range and the lack of a blindspot plus the fact that it hits low and is one of the few moves zard can use to knock opponents at a low angle means it should be used more.
I don't use fsmash unless i'm sure it'll connect with the opponent, it has excellent KB, power and range but zard can overshoot his mark and the laggy startup and endlag means you're better off using dsmash than fsmash in those situations (and if you opponent isn't at kill percentages why bother? Knock them around with a jab combo or rock smash instead)
"Much" better is an overstatement. It's got slow startup and horrendous ending lag. It's not a good move. It's a case of which is worse. At least Jr's has a couple of frame traps with landing Bair and Fair on certain characters.

You could say "I don't use X unless I'm sure it'll connect" about any move. For a heavyweight Fsmash Zard's is pretty lacking in power and range. See Bowser and DK. I would take Jr's any day.

EDIT: N Nathan Richardson (so as not to clutter the thread)

Zard Dsmash frame data taken from Kurogane Hammer: active f14-16, FAF 61. The startup is a tad faster than I thought (still sluggish) but those active frames are even worse than I thought and I would absolutely call that ending lag horrendous, awful, what have you. It is ignored for a reason - it’s bad. Being second fastest on a slow character with slow smashes means nothing.

Incidentally Jr’s Dsmash is active f15-16 and its FAF is 60. Very similar data-wise and Jr’s actually does more damage. Zard’s is probably better because of its range and lack of blindspot, but not by much, and both are bad moves.

This has gone on too long but my point is that your original assertion of Jr’s smashes being lacking compared to Charizard’s is false. Jr’s smashes are good sans the bad Dsmash while Zard has a good Usmash and bad Fsmash/Dsmash.

-

On BowJow specifically, I feel whatever remains of his potential is concentrated in his aerials. All of them are good in some way, Fair in particular has an excellent lingering hitbox which can be tough to break if Jr has the lead. Jr's tilts are solid too. I actually think Jr can be pretty good if he has the lead, though that's obviously a big "if" and that logic can be applied to a lot of characters anyway. I'd like to see how he'd fare with an Uthrow as strong as maybe Lucas's.
 
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Emblem Lord

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#35
Ryu stuff

Forced to go for 1 to 1 answers. Meaning he has specific buttons and actions to counter other characters specific buttons and actions. Smash is not that kind of game. It's a game about finding the few most abusable tools to great effect. So right off the bat Ryu is at odds with that makes a character strong in a smash game. He also is VERY limited in how he can move. So he relies heavily on basic universal options and defensive play until he gets an opening OR he has to bet it all and commit super heavy. That type of gameplay is not sustainable. Taking risks all the time will not win you majors consistently.

He mainly has to take risks because he does not have any easy ways to convert into stuff from neutral that is not reactable. Very bad dash attack. Grab that does not lead to anything at middle percents and higher. Best grounded pokes do not lead to conversions. He has huge combos that are situational and require a luck or a read to get going. At high level people are not getting hit with Focus Attack level 3 anymore. He has footstool combos, but they are DIable and with Ryu's poor air control good luck following it to keep your combo going.

Not gonna get into specials except to say they are not good. Hadouken is basically just a throw away move. At high level it gets you smacked. Tatsu is only good as recovery. Shoryuken is his best one for reasons we already know. Invincibility frames, can be comboed into, can be hit-confirmed into so no need to risk just throwing it out hoping it hits.

Ryu's meta got off to a really bad start which did him no favors. It was essentially the combination of EVERYTHING the smash community does wrong when trying to unlock a character's potential. Too much focus on combos. No focus on neutral. All the combo videos on the flashiest most damaging stuff that is also highly impractical. COMPLETELY IGNORE his ground game. Focus on throwing out aerials at shields. Ignore proper punishing. I could go on and on and on. It's not completely the fault of his player base. Ryu breaks the mold completely in so many ways. The usual process of learning a character just does not apply. Approaching him like a smash character is what led to so much controversy about him imo. Some said he was broken and others said he was trash.

In the end he is high tier imo. He just not abusive. And having throw away specials is never a good thing.
 
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Zeratrix
#36
It's got slow startup and horrendous ending lag
A misconception.
I main the character and I know that dsmash is ignored when it shouldn't be.
It's end lag while bad isn't awful by any means and it's startup is only slow when compared to specific other characters, if you compare it to charizard's other smashes it's actually it's second fastest not to mention it covers more ground than it's other smashes in regards to spread.
Anyways this is getting off topic, the subject is Ryu and Bowser Jr. (and the koopalings but those are reskins)
 
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#38
Title needs to be updated. Quick note on Bowser Jr: looking at Kurogane Hammer, he seems to be in a lot of ways like Samus but with worse mobility, combo game, and frame data.

As for :4villager:, I'd say he might be a little bit slept on. IMO while Villager may get bodied by some characters if they get in, he's fairly effective at keeping them out. Personally, I play a very campy Villager. My personal playstyle involves going to the edge of the stage and putting a tree between myself and my opponent, then chopping it once to threaten anyone who comes close. If they stand back and respect it, I can get a timeout, but if they try to get in, I can get massive damage assuming I time my second swing right. Attacking the tree from a safe distance may be a viable option, but not every character has that option and in many matchups Villager can counteract it using Pocket. (I think the most effective character for this is :4fox: because lasers, though weak, are fast enough that Villager cannot hope to Pocket all of them. Maybe :4bayonetta: too, but I haven't played that MU enough to know.) If an opponent does get in, chances are they'll launch me offstage, where I am just as comfortable as onstage. With Balloon Trip, I have a very long and hard to gimp recovery, so I'm not afraid of most gimp attempts. With a wall jump and 2 projectile aerials, I can rack up damage to anyone standing on the edge until they back off and let me back on stage. Some characters can punish this, especially the regrab, but from my experience, doing so is typically ineffective.

Every time someone talks about stage control, I think, "But what about Villager?"
 

SJMistery

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#39
Campy Villagers only work on people that is afraid to jump offstage, and too stupid to just go to the other side of the stage, where none of Villager's projectiles will reach. Then you just wait until the Villager gets impatient and tries to approach you, wich he sompletely sucks at. Otherwise, on the last 30 seconds, just go on and shoot him with the fastest thing you have and win by timeout. And if you catch him and launch him offstage, no hitbox and slow speed on UP-b means easy spiking time! (Or in my case, playing target practice with Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak and kill it at 40-50%

And in the case of Greninja, the dash grab can beat out the falling tree and the rockets even from the other side of the stage, so it's that much easier to get him offstage for the edgeguard.
 
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#40
To me Villager and ROB are great characters seeing as a struggle vs them online and vs Villager offline. They are characterd that I have to take my time with when approaching but if I take too long, they will either close the gap or change up their gameplan.

If somebody had a character that can easily rush them down and get around their projectile game and recovery the match-up may be muxh easier for them.
 
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