Project SonicSpeed
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 316
- Location
- Brandywine, Maryland
- NNID
- SonicSpeed432
- 3DS FC
- 0000-0000-0000
Dedede is a character with a lot of problems from an execution standpoint. He's a big character that's slow, has meme frame data, and has more problems securing kills then any other super heavyweight in the game. So I propose to make changes to Dedede to keep him fair, fun, intuitive, and the deep character we all desperately pray for him to be. For starters how ever, I'd like to say that a lot of the characters in Smash 4 are designed in a way that they can heavily rely on one specific strategy to win them through games. I don't plan to make Dedede a braindead character, I plan to make him viable and fun while still offering a good amount of depth with all the stuff he can do. If I really wanted to then yes I could just give Dedede a Hoo-Hah kill combo and call it a day. But that's easily the most lame and un-intuitive way to make a character good I have ever seen in my life. Dedede can be good in plenty of ways other then having kill confirms off of grabs. Ways that will keep him a fun character to play as and maybe even against. I think Dedede is one fun and well designed heavy. It's just that the execution was incredibly underwhelming and made what could have been a solid character bottom 10. So without further ado, I present to you my proposed changes for King Dedede.
Edit: I think it's time I went a little more in-depth on my philosophy for Dedede's changes. In order to learn how to properly balance a character, you need to figure out what their design philosophy was when turning them into a smash character. So without further ado, Let's get started:
My perspective on King Dedede's design philosophy:
Purpose: Heavy, Boss/anti-hero, Goofy, weapon user
Strengths:
Smash is a game with very unique characters. Some having very weird or polarizing designs (Little Mac, Jigglypuff, etc...), I've always felt Dedede was one of those straight foward characters who has clear strengths and weaknesses. He's supposed to be a "Slow, but strong" characters giving his hammer and poor mobility. But they don't go as far with it as most other heavyweights. He's arguably the weakest heavyweight in the game as many of his moves don't kill and are slow to boot. I feel a good middle ground would be to give him average frame data and give some of his moves that extra kick. Obviously a character with massive disjoints shouldn't have everything kill, but letting characters live to 130+ on average is pretty ridiculous as a heavyweight character. So I decided to give him the "best" of both worlds so to speak. Averaging out frame data to box with characters better which allows his gameplan of "Keep them at f-tilt range" to become even more effective. While also keeping him from being Bowser levels of strong so he still has to play neutral and not just spam f-tilt and watch it kill at 90%.
* =More significant buff
^ = More significant nerf
> = Minor change
Normals:
*Jab: Jab 1 startup 4 frames faster from 10-6 (same speed as d-tilt for a better midrange game.) Jab 2 comes out 3-4 frames earlier to reliably connect from Jab 1. Jab Finisher comes out 3 frames earlier so it can’t be countered or up-b’d out of. Change Knockback angle from 70 to 45 for more horizontal knockback for better stage control.
*F-tilt: Startup decreased by 3 frames from 12-9 (Same as DK’s for a better spacing tool strengthening his midrange game). IASA frames decreased by 5 frames from 49-44 (same as up-tilt to function as a shield poke for a better pressure game.)
*D-tilt: Hitbox timers fixed to cover Dedede’s entire side instead of just slightly in front of him so it won’t whiff at point blank. Startup decreased by 3 frames from 6-3 (so that we can more reliably punish unsafe shield pokes.)
^ But increase the IASA frames from 38-44 to be able to punish brain dead use of the move Oos so it’s not an unbeatable option.
*Up-tilt: *Decrease startup by 2 frames from 9-7 so we can use it as a reliable anti-air and it becomes a decent Oos option.
>Make the hitbox timers earlier to make it reach slightly lower to the ground so it can hit a standing Kirby reliably.
Dash attack: Fine
Smashes:
F-smash: Fine
D-smash: *Startup decreased by 2 frames from 14-12 for a better punish tool for unsafe moves and catching rolls. ^BKB and KBG values changed to same as Diddy's to compensate for speed increase.
Up-smash:
>Fix hitbox timers so that it doesn’t whiff at the start of the hammer swing.
*Get rid of the sourspot so every part of the move is the strong hit.
*Startup decreased by 3 frames from 17-14. KBG increased enough to kill the same percents as Sonic’s.
^BKB decreased to compensate for the increased knockback to the same value as Wario’s.
Grabs:
F-throw: *Change throw angle from 45-30 for semi-spike angle so it sets up for edgeguards better.
B-throw: *Angle changed from 60-40 better angle for kills and edgeguarding. KBG and BKB changed to same as DK’s for earlier kills.
Up-throw: Fine
D-throw: *BKB decreased from 70-55 for later follow-ups at high-ish percents (Around 80-90).
>KBG increased from from 82-83 for same KB values as Luigi for combos until kill percents at which point Dedede can use b-throw for the same purpose.
(Gives him slightly better damage racking capabilities while not having braindead ways to secure kills keeping the neutral intuitive and not just “Fish for d-throw at kill percents”.)
Aerials:
Nair: Fine
Fair: *Decreased startup from frame 13-10 to be able to use it to outspeed moves.
*IASA frames decreased from 42-38(Same as Bair). Now able to auto-cancel out of a short hop which gives him a safer, more intuitive nuetral. Also acts as a decent approach option now.
>Slight damage increase from 12-13%.
BKB increased from 15-30 for better edgeguarding move and a safer move to use in general at lower percents.
*Fix hitbox timers to hit higher above Dedede and the last pixel of the hammer head.
(This change gives Dedede and approach option he desperately needed and gives him an easier time keeping people out and forcing them to commit.)
Bair:
*Startup decreased by 4 frames from 16-12. Easier to hit with and increases it’s viability as an auto-cancel aerial.
*Fix hitbox timers to start slightly earlier to as soon as Dedede starts swinging the hammer.
(Deepens the neutral while also increasing his defensive game as an better wall out aerial with the hitbox timer fixes.)
Up-air: Fine
Down-air: *Startup decreased significantly from 22-14.
(Faster startup gives it better viablity as an actual edgeguarding option for more than just linear recoveries. Also makes it a better a slightly better anti-juggle option.)
Specials:
Inhale: *Startup decreased by 4 frames from 18-14.
*IASA frames decreased from 78-73.
(Given the Kirby treatment basically. Makes inhale a better landing option and a more useful command grab being able to react to shield quicker with it. Decrease in endlag helps give it a better risk/reward ratio to make it plenty punishable but not so much that it’s not worth using at all except highly un rare situations.)
Gordo: *Startup decreased by 11 frames from 29-18
*IASA frames decreased from 64-16.
*Make reflect percents from 2-3%.
(This way we can almost always reflect Gordo back even from close range with our faster frame data changes and decreased endlag. Reflect percents increased slightly but almost every attack in the game can still send it flying back at us so the Risk/Reward is more evened out. Gives Gordo volley more viablity and is a better option than before. Gordo traps also become way more viable as now we can safely create gordo pressure from mid range which gives us actual pressure and can force options much easier.)
Jet Hammer: Fine
Super Dedede Jump: *Super Armor active until Dedede lands.
(Better risk/reward ratio because the move doesn’t have a hitbox until he starts falling so not having armor until he landed never made sense anyway. Safer recovery but still plenty punishable if he lands on stage since the end lag balances the armor changes out.)
Stats:
*Walking Speed: 0.98 to 1.05
*Running Speed: 1.36 to 1.45
(Mostly so that he can punish openings more reliably and keep up with his opponents better. Not a tremendous increase in speed because he just needs to really be able to keep on his opponents when he gets in.)
*Air Speed: 0.658 to .08
*Air Mobility: 0.04 to 0.065
(Makes his horizontal recovery much better while still being plenty gimpable. Same air speed as Kirby now and it allows him to edgeguard people more easily as well as chase people down in the air much better.)
The stat changes were mostly just what if scenarios as no character has ever gotten a speed increase in the game ever. Well there you have it folks, My proposed Dedede changes. Feel free to discuss the changes as much as you want. I mostly made ths to get everyone else's opinions on my changes anyway.
Edit: Forgot to add Dash attack lol but I wasn't planning on changing it anyway.
Edit: I think it's time I went a little more in-depth on my philosophy for Dedede's changes. In order to learn how to properly balance a character, you need to figure out what their design philosophy was when turning them into a smash character. So without further ado, Let's get started:
My perspective on King Dedede's design philosophy:Purpose: Heavy, Boss/anti-hero, Goofy, weapon user
Strengths:
- Heavy character that lives extremely long
- Massive disjoints beating out almost the entire cast's movesets in shear range
- Great damage output on almost all of his attacks
- Multiple jumps giving him an excellent recovery
- Excellent defensive game
- Poor movement speed in general
- Being combo food given his size and weight
- Bad frame data
Smash is a game with very unique characters. Some having very weird or polarizing designs (Little Mac, Jigglypuff, etc...), I've always felt Dedede was one of those straight foward characters who has clear strengths and weaknesses. He's supposed to be a "Slow, but strong" characters giving his hammer and poor mobility. But they don't go as far with it as most other heavyweights. He's arguably the weakest heavyweight in the game as many of his moves don't kill and are slow to boot. I feel a good middle ground would be to give him average frame data and give some of his moves that extra kick. Obviously a character with massive disjoints shouldn't have everything kill, but letting characters live to 130+ on average is pretty ridiculous as a heavyweight character. So I decided to give him the "best" of both worlds so to speak. Averaging out frame data to box with characters better which allows his gameplan of "Keep them at f-tilt range" to become even more effective. While also keeping him from being Bowser levels of strong so he still has to play neutral and not just spam f-tilt and watch it kill at 90%.
* =More significant buff
^ = More significant nerf
> = Minor change
Normals:
*Jab: Jab 1 startup 4 frames faster from 10-6 (same speed as d-tilt for a better midrange game.) Jab 2 comes out 3-4 frames earlier to reliably connect from Jab 1. Jab Finisher comes out 3 frames earlier so it can’t be countered or up-b’d out of. Change Knockback angle from 70 to 45 for more horizontal knockback for better stage control.
*F-tilt: Startup decreased by 3 frames from 12-9 (Same as DK’s for a better spacing tool strengthening his midrange game). IASA frames decreased by 5 frames from 49-44 (same as up-tilt to function as a shield poke for a better pressure game.)
*D-tilt: Hitbox timers fixed to cover Dedede’s entire side instead of just slightly in front of him so it won’t whiff at point blank. Startup decreased by 3 frames from 6-3 (so that we can more reliably punish unsafe shield pokes.)
^ But increase the IASA frames from 38-44 to be able to punish brain dead use of the move Oos so it’s not an unbeatable option.
*Up-tilt: *Decrease startup by 2 frames from 9-7 so we can use it as a reliable anti-air and it becomes a decent Oos option.
>Make the hitbox timers earlier to make it reach slightly lower to the ground so it can hit a standing Kirby reliably.
Dash attack: Fine
Smashes:
F-smash: Fine
D-smash: *Startup decreased by 2 frames from 14-12 for a better punish tool for unsafe moves and catching rolls. ^BKB and KBG values changed to same as Diddy's to compensate for speed increase.
Up-smash:
>Fix hitbox timers so that it doesn’t whiff at the start of the hammer swing.
*Get rid of the sourspot so every part of the move is the strong hit.
*Startup decreased by 3 frames from 17-14. KBG increased enough to kill the same percents as Sonic’s.
^BKB decreased to compensate for the increased knockback to the same value as Wario’s.
Grabs:
F-throw: *Change throw angle from 45-30 for semi-spike angle so it sets up for edgeguards better.
B-throw: *Angle changed from 60-40 better angle for kills and edgeguarding. KBG and BKB changed to same as DK’s for earlier kills.
Up-throw: Fine
D-throw: *BKB decreased from 70-55 for later follow-ups at high-ish percents (Around 80-90).
>KBG increased from from 82-83 for same KB values as Luigi for combos until kill percents at which point Dedede can use b-throw for the same purpose.
(Gives him slightly better damage racking capabilities while not having braindead ways to secure kills keeping the neutral intuitive and not just “Fish for d-throw at kill percents”.)
Aerials:
Nair: Fine
Fair: *Decreased startup from frame 13-10 to be able to use it to outspeed moves.
*IASA frames decreased from 42-38(Same as Bair). Now able to auto-cancel out of a short hop which gives him a safer, more intuitive nuetral. Also acts as a decent approach option now.
>Slight damage increase from 12-13%.
BKB increased from 15-30 for better edgeguarding move and a safer move to use in general at lower percents.
*Fix hitbox timers to hit higher above Dedede and the last pixel of the hammer head.
(This change gives Dedede and approach option he desperately needed and gives him an easier time keeping people out and forcing them to commit.)
Bair:
*Startup decreased by 4 frames from 16-12. Easier to hit with and increases it’s viability as an auto-cancel aerial.
*Fix hitbox timers to start slightly earlier to as soon as Dedede starts swinging the hammer.
(Deepens the neutral while also increasing his defensive game as an better wall out aerial with the hitbox timer fixes.)
Up-air: Fine
Down-air: *Startup decreased significantly from 22-14.
(Faster startup gives it better viablity as an actual edgeguarding option for more than just linear recoveries. Also makes it a better a slightly better anti-juggle option.)
Specials:
Inhale: *Startup decreased by 4 frames from 18-14.
*IASA frames decreased from 78-73.
(Given the Kirby treatment basically. Makes inhale a better landing option and a more useful command grab being able to react to shield quicker with it. Decrease in endlag helps give it a better risk/reward ratio to make it plenty punishable but not so much that it’s not worth using at all except highly un rare situations.)
Gordo: *Startup decreased by 11 frames from 29-18
*IASA frames decreased from 64-16.
*Make reflect percents from 2-3%.
(This way we can almost always reflect Gordo back even from close range with our faster frame data changes and decreased endlag. Reflect percents increased slightly but almost every attack in the game can still send it flying back at us so the Risk/Reward is more evened out. Gives Gordo volley more viablity and is a better option than before. Gordo traps also become way more viable as now we can safely create gordo pressure from mid range which gives us actual pressure and can force options much easier.)
Jet Hammer: Fine
Super Dedede Jump: *Super Armor active until Dedede lands.
(Better risk/reward ratio because the move doesn’t have a hitbox until he starts falling so not having armor until he landed never made sense anyway. Safer recovery but still plenty punishable if he lands on stage since the end lag balances the armor changes out.)
Stats:
*Walking Speed: 0.98 to 1.05
*Running Speed: 1.36 to 1.45
(Mostly so that he can punish openings more reliably and keep up with his opponents better. Not a tremendous increase in speed because he just needs to really be able to keep on his opponents when he gets in.)
*Air Speed: 0.658 to .08
*Air Mobility: 0.04 to 0.065
(Makes his horizontal recovery much better while still being plenty gimpable. Same air speed as Kirby now and it allows him to edgeguard people more easily as well as chase people down in the air much better.)
The stat changes were mostly just what if scenarios as no character has ever gotten a speed increase in the game ever. Well there you have it folks, My proposed Dedede changes. Feel free to discuss the changes as much as you want. I mostly made ths to get everyone else's opinions on my changes anyway.
Edit: Forgot to add Dash attack lol but I wasn't planning on changing it anyway.
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