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Changes to make Dedede a viable threat in the meta.

MegaBlaster1234

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
138
NNID
Srib64
Dedede would really benefit from removal of sourspots. Up Smash, F Smash, U tilt, Dash attack and Down air all have really bad or useless sourspots.
 

Dark Phazon

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
5,910
Location
London, England
-Fair is fine.
-Dsmash is actually pretty fast. Did you know how he caught rolls in Brawl? With Utilt. He needs his old Utilt back.
-Nair, Fair and early Uair have fair Landing Lags, Bair and Dair are risky moves not to be thrown that easily. Overall DDD doesn't really like to jump when the opponent is grounded, but still his aerials are far from terrible.
-Fsmash would be broken in teams and FFAs that way.
:196:
.
UpSmash is so bad....so slow so weak and messed up hitboxes needs a overhaul..
And uptilt sucks too...
 
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AAAZZZ

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
12
And uptilt sucks too...
Uptilt is amazing.
Kills around 150%, hits most grounded characters, partial invulnerability, not awfully slow, combos from nair at low percents, combos into itself, nair and uair.
It's not really something you spam just because, but it's still one of Dedede's more valuable tools.
 

Dark Phazon

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
5,910
Location
London, England
Uptilt is amazing.
Kills around 150%, hits most grounded characters, partial invulnerability, not awfully slow, combos from nair at low percents, combos into itself, nair and uair.
It's not really something you spam just because, but it's still one of Dedede's more valuable tools.
I get what you mean but imo it just needs to be a little faster thats all.
 

AAAZZZ

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
12
Uptilt and downsmash are the only two moves that I never feel betrayed by. Everything else has either awful hitboxes or punishes you for landing a hit. It actually makes me upset that people say bad things about it. All talk of buffs to other moves usually revolve around making them do what they are supposed to do, but you just want uptilt to be a little better?

Oh yeah sometimes I use uptilt to punish rolls.
 

SoopaDerpcat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
45
You know what would make almost all of Dedede's aerials absolutely wonderful? High shield knockback, better hitboxes, and a bit less landing lag.

While we're at it, better grab range. I can barely ever grab out of shield as Dedede since he's too slow to run up then grab, but doesn't have a log enough reach to outright grab any spaced attacks out of shield. This is a problem that actually applies to all heavyweights in my opinion, ESPECIALLY Ganon.
 
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Dar4

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
140
What are the patch changes for D3?
As per usual, pretty much nothing. According to patch notes so far:

  • Neutral Special 1/3
    • Small timing tweak
  • Up Special 1/2/3
    • Facing Restriction added to descent and landing hitboxes

I don't know really what either of those are, but I haven't noticed any differences in either move. Still holding out hope that Sakurai wants to buff D3 and just hasn't gotten to him yet. Bowser got a hoo hah this update.
 

Silly Symphony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
47
Location
Belgium
NNID
scoota100
Either Sakurai wants to buff Dedede when all other character's frame data is known and set in stone, because Dedede is an unpredictable and wonky character and even the slightest change could prove OP (just kidding) or unviable.

That or Sakurai wants Dedede to be viable only in the hands of perfect players, because Dedede is already perfect, Sakurai likes trolling, and yada yada yada...
 

SoopaDerpcat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
45
That's true, it certainly is a well-known fact that Dedede mains not only use a perfect character, and not only are perfect at the game, but are usually generally as close to perfect as any human being can possibly be without the aid of very special blessings and graces.
 
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Doctor Troggy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
Messages
16
Here's what Triple D needs to be decent (In my opinion)
Faster Jet Hammer charge (Make it around 1 second long, Dedede may still remain vulnerable but it becomes more useful almost instantly)
Decreased Up Smash endlag
Increased sourspot damage on Side Smash
Slightly increased hitbox on Side Smash
Increased Air Speed
Increased Shield Damage on all moves
Crouch now forces all opponents to SD immediately due to witnessing pure perfection. Fellow Dededes are unaffected.
 

SoopaDerpcat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
45
After playing around a bit, I'm pretty sure 1.1.3 improved Dedede's Fair and Bair hitboxes, making them cover the actual swing arc of the hammer better and giving them slightly better reach. Can anybody confirm this?
 

Silly Symphony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
47
Location
Belgium
NNID
scoota100
After playing around a bit, I'm pretty sure 1.1.3 improved Dedede's Fair and Bair hitboxes, making them cover the actual swing arc of the hammer better and giving them slightly better reach. Can anybody confirm this?
I can disconfirm by having tried them out on Mario yesterday and the bottom of Bair is still just a bunch of hollow pixels. What I do wonder is if Gordo getting stuck under Dedede is fixed? It's been a while since I saw this happen.
 

backalleyracer

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
14
Location
Las Vegas
You know, I have been maining d3 since day 1 and I am tournament player - I am not a god or anything, but I place middle of pack (best placing was 3rd so far) but can still beat top 10 in my local region with d3. I honestly feel those things you mentioned would be too much - although it nice to see someone taking time to give reasons why some stuff should change with him, in general I think he needs just a few things to make it "better".

- Reduce start up on up tilt (so he has an out of shield option)
- Inhale start up and ending lag reduced (Just a nice more viable option to cover his otherwise terrible landing options; btw it would be nice if you swallowcided it would result in a tie similar to kirby)
- Back air has increased shield stun / shield knock back (as of now, unless you space it perfectly, you will be punished by all top tiers for using it on a shielding character)

Everything else I feel is fine already, he is what he is, I've learned to love it.
 

RandomLax

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
128
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ಠ_ಠ
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RelaxBro
3DS FC
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The proposed changes are actually very reasonable, take notes Ninty. But I would also propose a fix to Dedede's up-b. And the timing to grab the edge, much closer to the Project M timing. In smash 4 he must be at least one body lenght above the edge when cancelling his jump in order to grab the edge. I have lost matches after getting guaranteed gimps because my cancel was at the edge, and not above it.
 

Silly Symphony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
47
Location
Belgium
NNID
scoota100
The only one I guess I have any real reason to disagree with you on is Fsmash. It still seems like anybody who's paying any attention at all could still dodge it, even in a team match. The biggest danger I can see is people forgetting it has super armor for a few weeks after the theoretical buff is put into effect and dying trying to interrupt it.

I don't know, I just feel like it needs some kind of buff. Dedede has way too many useless moves. F-smash is once again a good idea in theory, but in practice it doesn't really find much use. Here's some other ideas for it though, since I suppose super armor COULD be a little bit OP in some situations.

- Give the initial overhead part of the swing more knockback and a horizontal trajectory.

- Nerf the damage and knockback, but give it less startup lag.

- Make it break shields. Like, actually completely break shields. I know it already does a ton of shield damage, but since shields restore so quickly and Dedede is so easily outmaneuvered, it's pretty easy to go a while without
shielding against him.

- Give it damage-sensitive armor to protect it against easy jabs and dash attacks. Even if it breaks from a move that only does over 5% in a single hit, it would make the move a lot more useful.
I consider Fsmash the punishment for when the shield actually breaks. Giving it armour and shield-break on top of the already huge damage and knockback output would be disgusting.

I would rather Gordo do more shield damage (and ignore projectiles), it's the only projectile in the game that can be completely camped out and the main contributor to Dedede having no way to make the opponent approach compared to brawl. Also, I'd have Jet Hammer be the shield-break à la Marth (with a few less frames on it).
 

SoopaDerpcat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
45
Wait, wait, you know what would really make people have to approach? Make his inhale automatically swallow small projectiles without canceling the move. It could still be just as laggy, but being able to just guzzle weak projectiles non-stop would prevent players from getting too spammy. It wouldn't make him completely unzonable since it wouldn't come out fast enough to catch fast projectiles on the fly, but it would definitely help when Fox just stands at the other end of the stage mashing B.
 
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Dar4

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
140
Wait, wait, you know what would really make people have to approach? Make his inhale automatically swallow small projectiles without canceling the move. It could still be just as laggy, but being able to just guzzle weak projectiles non-stop would prevent players from getting too spammy. It wouldn't make him completely unzonable since it wouldn't come out fast enough to catch fast projectiles on the fly, but it would definitely help when Fox just stands at the other end of the stage mashing B.
As someone who mains Wario and Dedede...there is zero reason for inhale to have so much more end lag than Wario's bite. Giving Rosa a low lag absorb but making Dedede's swalllow animation so long just doesn't make sense. Not saying swallowed projectiles should have zero lag, but it should be comperable to Wario's swallow lag.

But whatever, I'm convinced if Dedede gets a buff next patch they'll do the same lazy thing they did with DK and Bowser...give him more rewards for grab.
 
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PeliPenguin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
56
Location
Hertfordshire, England
NNID
peligod2
Patches have been cruel to Dedede. He really can't compete with the other heavies, I don't understand why DK, Bowser and Charizard get kills off of grabs but Dedede's down throw gets nerfed.

Ways I would buff him
  1. Bthrow has increased KGB and sends opponents at a lower angle. This'll make it a reliable kill throw.
  2. Dthrow has lower KBG and a more vertical angle, this makes it harder to DI away from and makes Dthrow>Uair a kill setup.
  3. Gordo reflect threshold at 5%, jabs and weak projectiles lose to it.
  4. Upb and fully charged downb instabreak shields. Dedede has mediocre shield pressure and needs to have ways to reliably break shields.
  5. Jab connects reliably.
  6. Fair autocancel on shorthop
  7. Neutral B has less endlag
  8. Nair comes out a frame earlier (frame 6)
  9. Dair has a bigger sweetspot
  10. Holding down reverses your opponents controls
 

Snokros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
44
Patches have been cruel to Dedede. He really can't compete with the other heavies, I don't understand why DK, Bowser and Charizard get kills off of grabs but Dedede's down throw gets nerfed.

Ways I would buff him
  1. Bthrow has increased KGB and sends opponents at a lower angle. This'll make it a reliable kill throw.
  2. Dthrow has lower KBG and a more vertical angle, this makes it harder to DI away from and makes Dthrow>Uair a kill setup.
  3. Gordo reflect threshold at 5%, jabs and weak projectiles lose to it.
  4. Upb and fully charged downb instabreak shields. Dedede has mediocre shield pressure and needs to have ways to reliably break shields.
  5. Jab connects reliably.
  6. Fair autocancel on shorthop
  7. Neutral B has less endlag
  8. Nair comes out a frame earlier (frame 6)
  9. Dair has a bigger sweetspot
  10. Holding down reverses your opponents controls
that last point made my day xD.
 

Doctor Troggy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
Messages
16
I decided to rethink my ideas for changes somewhat, as I think Dedede just needs these things to be (at least somewhat) viable against higher tiers:

Increase Gordo Reflection Damage by 4-5%, leaving around 6-7% for Gordo to fly right back.
Decrease Startup and End Lag on all Aerials besides NAir.
Increase Dedede's Ground and Air Speed.
Improve his hitboxes and framedata.

I'm surprised that Sakurai hasn't taken steps to patch Dedede, since many other characters that were originally considered pretty poor in competitive play have been considerably buffed. I'm not hoping to turn Dedede into a heavy Sheik (as cool as that would be), I just want my penguin pal to be viable in things that aren't amiibo tournies.
 
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