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Changes in gameplay: A new look at the tradeoffs of gamplay from Melee to Brawl

CyberBenX4

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
192
Location
Maryland, USA
As you wish, good sir.

Again, to me, I would rather just be basically adopt the stance of "being open to any thing". I've been playing a wide variety of fighting games over the course of my time as a gamer, so I've come to pretty much accept this philosophy when it comes to any sequel/update in an established series.

Cuz, in the end, I would rather a series try to do more to "evolve", rather than just stay stagnant, just for the sake of those who would actually prefer it that way.
 

2007

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
752
Location
84604
I like that idea of "evolution".
the melee diehards already have their wish granted. it's called: Melee.
of course, I'm going to have some serious evolution to do, since I rely so heavily on the directional midair didge.

ah well...
=2007=
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
I like that idea of "evolution".
the melee diehards already have their wish granted. it's called: Melee.
I don't mean to pick on you in particular or anything, but these kinds of generalized statements that have been said over and over do not add anything to this thread. It's ok to say it, but I would encourage you to explain why you feel that way based on the topic at hand.
 

ripman3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
284
Location
Birmingham, AL
So I guess giving DK a ****ty FS "completed" him? It doesn't matter if it fits them or not, they just aren't balanced.
I'm pretty sure i read that half of the reason people thought his FS sucked was because it was based on the music of the stage, and people couldn't hear the music in order to use it properly. I'm still putting my money on that the FS's are more balanced than they seem.
 

evilflame101

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
320
Seeing how a lot of game mechanic discussion has died down recently I'm opting to start a new discussion up. I was talking to a friend of mine and realized a few things I hadn't thought before in terms of brawl competitive play. I would appreciate well thought out replies to this, as I do not want it devolving into one word statements of praise or flaming early on (I say early on cause I know that later in the thread this will happen).

It has been pretty well documented that shield grabbing in Brawl will be more prevalent than it was in Melee (at least in the early metagame). Shield stun seems to be reduced and because of this it allows for the defender to take advantage of aerial assaults quite often. This would prevent a lot of common strategies of faster characters. All too often in Melee you will see people adopting an incredibly aggressive suppression game that is the culmination of quick aerials l-canceled followed by quick ground moves. This won't happen as much in Brawl, because one can't simply toss out moves quickly to overcome one's defenses. In other words, people would have to make their approaches more cautiously and with more thought behind it.

After thinking about it for a while I can see this being a good thing in the long run. While the displays of incredible tech skill of the speedy overwhelming air to ground games are impressive, the strategy itself was not very thought intensive. Sure, there were a lot of defensive options available and the aggressor couldn't just mindlessly go about it, but due to this being the predominant strategy of all fast characters it didn't lend much to thinking in terms of how to handle opponents. This also got me thinking about the speed vs power issue.

When fast characters battle it out in Melee things go back and forth; however, when a fast character plays against a slower character it is quite a struggle for the slower character to handle. Because the slower character has less quick aggressive options, he is forced to play a defensive game most of the time. This makes things an uphill battle. If the speedy character is doing his job right, speed will determine who is in control of the match; however, in Brawl, the person on defense can nip the suppressive game in the bud by being able to shield grab their shffl approaches immediately, then suppression would be a thing of the past.

With suppression out then the balance of speed and power does not simply default to speed. Fast characters still have the advantage when it comes to setting up opportunities and getting in hits, but they will have to get considerably more hits than the powerful characters. This to me is a great thing in regards to balance.

The only problem with all this is if the defensive options are more powerful than the offensive options overall. If this is the case then the game will merely end up being overly campy and overall bad. I would say that having better offensive options than defensive is better than this scenario, because it creates an atmosphere that is set on fighting, but if turtling is the dominant strategy than the meta game could potentially get very boring indeed.

It's way to early to be worried about this happening though, so there is no point in ranting and raving about how much it would suck if this is the case. [Edit] That said, I'd like to hear people discuss potential problems with defense vs offense based off the information we know, because I know a lot of competitive players do worry about this. [/Edit]
I think that the new air dodge system, and the fact you are not defenseless after an up b will change the defensive play greatly. before when you air dodged, or did an up b, it left you open to a hit from your opponent, until you hit the ground. This new system will eliminate that way of becoming vunerable, but closing that, could that possibly make the game too defensive? What if the game just becomes so defensive that you are both struggling to get a hit off? I personally don't think this will happen, as there will still be plenty of new ways to "mindgame" your opponent, and predict when they let their guard down, so overall, i think it will still remain very offensive, but i think it will still be more defensive then melee.

When it comes to power vs speed, i think it is always going to be full out attacks, vs a well thought out defense, followed by short streams of combos.
 

Naota21t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
2,507
Location
The Bay Area, CA
I do believe that Brawl is heading towards are more defensive approach, but that does not necessarily mean that this change in direction is bad.

We can all agree that what Melee (for competitive players) was how offensive and how fast it was. The whole thing was high paced.

Now why was it high paced?

Obviously, fast characters, wavedashing, short hopping and l-cancel gave us the allusion of speed.

Now we look at brawl:

Everything from Melee has been confirmed except for wavedashing (even though waveland is still in).

So that means Brawl has the capacity to be close to Melee in terms of speed. But of course this is if we don't account for the increased DI and hit stun. This could cause for combos to be enacted in a way thats a hybrid of melee and 64. This doesn't mean it'll be worse, or it'll be better, it'll just be different. If that difference is good is going to be a matter of opinion.

Now on the whole idea that Brawl will be more defensive I believe only adds to the strategic depth of the game. In Melee you pretty much had the aggressive people having the advantage practically all of the time. When it comes to fighting in Brawl, whoever was attacking and approaching is the one who had the advantage.

Now... my favorite character was Doc. Let me tell you why: Its because of the defensive and offensive potential of his pills. You could stop your enemies and approach them with the same move. And I loved the idea of being able to play defensively and having that completely throw people out of their game.

The added importance on defensive will give people more options to do. You won't just be mindlessly attacking and hoping to get in an attack. Now you can wait for them to attack and act accordingly. Shield grabbing will be more important, so people won't just be able to rush you down and screw you (aka Falco shffling d-airs and shines and breaking your shield). You won't be able to do that without getting shield-grabbed. So now people are going to have to think about different ways to approach people.

So we might lose some speed and technical depth, but in return we're guaranteed a more mental game which'll involve a more strategic and balanced attack.
 

Gilgamesh

BRoomer
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The only thing i'd point out is that i feel some people (i'm not aiming at mookie particularly) tend to be judging Final Smashes too early. Sure, we have seen impressions on them already and many experienced players actually tested them in the demo, but i don't know, in the end DK's might end up not being as crappy as we thought, and someone might discover a way to keep GigaBowser at bay. All of this could happen quite some time after brawl is out.

I guess this "don't judge the book by its cover" sounds cliche and could be extended to the rest of Brawl's features, but i specifically mention Final Smashes because it's one of the more radical additions to the game.

Edit: also, sorry, i realize this went a bit off topic.
 

Naota21t

Smash Champion
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Jul 15, 2006
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The Bay Area, CA
The only thing i'd point out is that i feel some people (i'm not aiming at mookie particularly) tend to be judging Final Smashes too early. Sure, we have seen impressions on them already and many experienced players actually tested them in the demo, but i don't know, in the end DK's might end up not being as crappy as we thought, and someone might discover a way to keep GigaBowser at bay. All of this could happen quite some time after brawl is out.
I agree that some people are judging FS a lil too harshly. But some of them are just so obvious. And by some, I'm talking about Giga Bowser.

Unless there is some new mechanic that makes you invulnerable for as long as his FS lasts, I don't think there is a way to avoid at least one stock death from Bowser.

Maybe you could grab the edge and continue to grab it, but then you'd probably get d-smash'd off the ledge. Ohh that gives me an idea.

Just grab the edge and keep edge hopping to try to stay invis, and if he hits you, just edge tech it (if possible). But even then, it's still **** hard.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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So that means Brawl has the capacity to be close to Melee in terms of speed. But of course this is if we don't account for the increased DI and hit stun. This could cause for combos to be enacted in a way thats a hybrid of melee and 64. This doesn't mean it'll be worse, or it'll be better, it'll just be different. If that difference is good is going to be a matter of opinion.
SSB64 didn't have DI like melee, it had a weird and very poorly integrated version of smash DI where you moved a few pixels when you were in hit lag, but that was it. I agree that it might "feel" similar to SSB due to the fact that there is more hit lag, but combos won't be anything like they were in SSB and shouldn't be compared to Brawl at all. If anything Brawl's implementation of DI, hit lag, and hit stun is as far opposite from SSB as you can get.
In Melee you pretty much had the aggressive people having the advantage practically all of the time.
This isn't true. There are plenty of people who took a more defensive approach to the game, but the fact that the best players tend to air more on the side of offense than defense tells us that offense wins out slightly. Also, to be completely accurate, every good player has a good mix of being defensive and aggressive, as the situation determines which route is better at a given moment.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Before I begin, I must apologize as I'm making this post before I've read all the responses.

Smash Bros will never ever be balanced in a competitive scene because of the very nature of the game. Games like SF2 and GGXX are meant to be played in only a single way, 1v1. There is nothing else to consider besides individual character balance in this single 1v1 setting. However, a game like Smash is MUCH more complicated. Smash has many elements that set it apart from traditional 2d fighters, the most obvious of which is the % and recover system. This simple system makes the stages upon which you play an integral part of the game itself. Then you have to consider that the game can be played 1v1, 2v2, 4 free for all, etc. And then there are items, which are optional yet still in the game and are obviously considered when balancing (i.e. Pichu's trophy stating that he is great with items). Now Final Smashes, which I'm considering completely different, are thrown into the mix.

In order to balance smash, one would have to balance every single aspect. That means balancing characters/stages so there are no advantages or disadvantages on certain stages. Balancing how the characters interact with the items. Balancing the power of the Final Smashes. Balancing every character to be useful in all variations of 1v1, 2v2, 4 free for all, etc. Then you have to keep in mind that characters have to feel and play uniquely in order to make the game fresh and fun. So the method of balancing taken in Smash varies. Some characters are very good with items, yet have very short range otherwise (like Pichu) meaning in the competitive scene that is item-less, he is screwed. Other characters, like Ike, are meant to take advantage of people in free for all or maybe teams, because he is so naturally slow.

I know alot of people wish that Smash is balanced with the competitive scene in mind (like myself), but understand that the very nature of flexibility provided by the game makes the game itself nearly impossible to balance on every single level.



And in response to the original post: I'm not sure it will work exactly as you're describing. It seems many characters have less lag between their aerial attacks, plus with the "automatic" L-canceling (not even including the new L-cancel), which could change the dynamic of air-to-ground offense vs defense completely. In all honesty, I believe it is too early to judge how a single nuance will change the competitive metagame until we know all the nuances, new or old, in order to better understand their interactions with each other.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Umeå, Sweden
In all honesty, I believe it is too early to judge how a single nuance will change the competitive metagame until we know all the nuances, new or old, in order to better understand their interactions with each other.
Of course, but it sure is fun to speculate :-P. I mean honestly you could go to every single thread in the Brawl discussion and say that if you wanted. No need to remind us that we don't have the game, we are well aware of that.
 

Psydon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
311
Personally, I'm in favour of offense

I do think that Brawl will have more defensive potential, but it'll still have a very important offense. Certainly, Brawl will become a less crazy game, not just because the game is slower but because players will have to play slower and more methodically. Poking will become much more prevalent and, like...like...dammit, I forget your name. >< Well, the guy that talked about range. It'll be even more important than in Melee, because the last thing you'll want to do is get closer to your opponent.

Reduced hitstun certainly makes shieldgrabbing more viable, but at the same time it makes shieldgrabbing somewhat of a less effective counter. Once you grab someone, if you don't throw them in time they'll break free. So we come to the throw. People can act sooner after being thrown, making it tougher to setup effective counterattacks out of down or up throws. Yes, there are also forward and back throws, but we've already seen something that can help with anti-throw options, working alongside DI.

I'm just going to fall it "Fair DI", although that's a crappy name, because I've seen it as a Mario doing his fair and literally halting his movement away from the stage, and even increase his speed while approaching the stage (this is actually one of a number of things I've seen that make me think we'll have more control over our characters' momentum than we've ever had before).

Also, the new L-cancel might very well help to balance the increased ease (and thus, prevalence) of shieldgrabbing. Now SHFFLs have the potential to be faster than they've ever been, and that might just be the key to maintaining composure and control over a defensive opponent.

For example: a Samus FFs her dair on a shielding Mario, thinking that she might be able to break the shield given its current size. She misjudges and Mario's shield is just barely intact, while Samus hits the ground still in her dair animation but just after the attack connected. Mario may have less hitstun than in Melee, but he's still got some, whereas Samus' dair cancels all of her lag, allowing her to d-tilt Mario through his shield and send him flying before he can grab.

Anyway, the improved ease of shieldgrabbing will nevertheless make for a more...not methodically paced, but methodically played game. We'll certainly have to think more about our offense and all-out offenses will become less common. This means that various attacks will gain prevalence for different reasons.

Jabs will become more important because they can be used to eat through shields with rapid but correctly spaced, or even down-cancelled, jabs. Or, they can be used to take advantage of hitstun and get in a quick close-range grab against the shielding opponent.

Tilts and projectiles will become more important because of their range and speed; they can outreach shielding opponents. Incidentally, their use will force players to move closer.

Also, Link and Samus will gain an advantage because their grabs are long-range.

Smashes will become more important because they push your shielding opponent away from you, and do the most shield damage on average.

Multi-hit attacks will become more important because of the hitstun and shield damage.

And all of this only applies to the ground. In the air, you can't shield, so the game will change drastically between air and ground fighting. Ground combat will become much more spaced out and defensive, while air combat, with its lack of shielding, less lag and new airdodge, will make for some terrific dogfights (and since there's so much less defense in the air, air combat will certainly become...*drum roll*...more important in the game).

Characters that have reach in any form, be it a long dashgrab range (which fast characters have), a long attack range (swordsmen), very fast attacks (Metaknight--he won't have any problems versus shieldgrabbing, because he can just stay at tip range and rip shields to pieces) or projectiles (Samus, Link, Pit, Snake) will have very obvious offensive advantages. Techniques like the Dash Brake will gain prevalence (running to your opponent, only to stop and watch them grab at nothing, and F-smashing them right in the face, for example).

And, of course, none of this is even taking the opponent's actions into account. Nobody shields, grabs and dodges forever. Especially not if they're being attacked either from a distance or with a flurry of attacks that shielding simply won't deal with. What does that result in? Offense, but tactical offense.

Edit: Using the same principles as described above, except while taking into account their effects on opponents who, at the time, aren't shielding. And since both players are thinking about this, tactical offense will not only include what you do with your offense against your opponent's defense but also what you do against your opponent's offense.

And that, IMO will be the big change from Melee to Brawl. Crazy, high-speed offense to slower, more involved and active (since we can act faster), tactical offense, in the face of improved defense. Same thing with edgeguarding, since it's easier to recover.
 

Crossjeremiah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
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580
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Dallas, TX
hmm tier list. i think in reality tier list could exist because people would suck regardless unless using a different character. i hope this game is as balanced as possible ^_^. but tier list is just nothing we can think about right now. it depends who you love to fight or your style of fighting. do you like combos,projectiles,or strong attacks.
 

Oldskool

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
332
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't agree with all of these changes (more so I agree on them individually, but all of them together I'm not sure about), but I can see where the dev team is coming from with it. I just hope that they didn't simplify balance issues so much that it hurts competitive play.
In all honesty, you should have seen this comming. With the theme of the wii, even the most competitive games are going to get toned down. I have to admit that although I liked Galaxy better, Sunshine was the more difficult game.
 

Zek

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Messages
784
In all honesty, you should have seen this comming. With the theme of the wii, even the most competitive games are going to get toned down. I have to admit that although I liked Galaxy better, Sunshine was the more difficult game.
I don't think Melee was ever designed to be a competitive game, it just sort of worked out that way. It was developed way too early for Smash 64 to have had a mature competitive community. I don't know if the devs even realized it would seriously be played that way, though they at least implemented some high-level techniques, and I doubt they had many testers that could balance test it at that level. The fact that it worked out reasonably well was probably just dumb luck.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Umeå, Sweden
For example: a Samus FFs her dair on a shielding Mario, thinking that she might be able to break the shield given its current size. She misjudges and Mario's shield is just barely intact, while Samus hits the ground still in her dair animation but just after the attack connected.
The thing you don't realize is that the shield stun appears to be so minimal that Mario would be able to retaliate before Samus can get any move off regardless of l-canceling removing all lag. That's the whole reason why Gimpy and others said shield grabbing looks like it will be more prevalent.
I'm just going to fall it "Fair DI", although that's a crappy name, because I've seen it as a Mario doing his fair and literally halting his movement away from the stage,
Interesting. Reminds me of sling shotting, which is basically when you use an aerial to increase your momentum in a given direction from a DJC. I coined the term a long while back in the Mewtwo forums, although I don't think it really caught on; however, it wasn't given another name to my knowledge. Basically from what you are saying this will be a common thing for all characters in Brawl. It also makes sense that they referred to aerials giving momentum because that is supposedly how the new wavelanding works.
Jabs will become more important
I don't think they will become more important than they were in melee. I say that cause jabs were very important in high level play and were used in all sorts of ways, one being to harass the enemies shield.
Techniques like the Dash Brake will gain prevalence (running to your opponent, only to stop and watch them grab at nothing, and F-smashing them right in the face, for example).
I honestly don't see this becoming very prevalent XD. A much better strategy for baiting people on the ground is dash dancing, and it is not only in the game, but with characters like Sonic it will be even more effective. It's one of the things I can't wait for to do, which is ***** Sonic's dash dancing and annoy the hell out of everyone.
Anyway, the improved ease of shieldgrabbing will nevertheless make for a more...not methodically paced, but methodically played game. We'll certainly have to think more about our offense and all-out offenses will become less common. This means that various attacks will gain prevalence for different reasons.
I agree with this for the most part. I really don't see the game degenerating into pure defense; however it is a somewhat valid fear to have given what we know is all.
Also, Link and Samus will gain an advantage because their grabs are long-range.
Yes and no. They won't be able to shield grab as well because their grabs have start up lag. So they have an advantage at getting crazy distance grabs, but they probably will be some of the few characters that will be able to shield grab.
 

Chexr

Smash Ace
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Jan 23, 2004
Messages
817
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Minnesota
I honestly cannot see SSBB turning into a campfest or be based around defensive combat. Spacing and Mindgames will become a much larger role but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing will ever happen just because characters are more floaty or there's a bit less shield lag.

In Melee I main Jigglypuff. You may be one of the many people who hate playing jigglypuff for the fact that 90% of them just try and dodge attacks before attacking. Mine is one of the most aggressive jigglypuff in the world simply because I never stop attacking. Now I dont need a fast character to do this and I certainly don't ever get sheild grabbed. Unless they nerf Jigglypuffs horizontal movement I dont see this changing in brawl. Now if I go back and watch a match between some noobies playing say Fox and Shiek or something it'll take about 4 or 5 minutes for them to finish the match and is fairly boring to watch because all they do is a bunch of dash attacks and rolling.

I dont see metagame slowing down at all despite the physics obviously. Some people will always be agressive despite how the game allows them to play. And reduced shield lag causing more shield grabs isn't ANYTHING to worry about. Thats what dashdance grabing and spacing are for, and those certainly aren't going away.
 

Psydon

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 5, 2007
Messages
311
The thing you don't realize is that the shield stun appears to be so minimal that Mario would be able to retaliate before Samus can get any move off regardless of l-canceling removing all lag. That's the whole reason why Gimpy and others said shield grabbing looks like it will be more prevalent.
o.o I see...I didn't think it was reduced that much.

Interesting. Reminds me of sling shotting, which is basically when you use an aerial to increase your momentum in a given direction from a DJC. I coined the term a long while back in the Mewtwo forums, although I don't think it really caught on; however, it wasn't given another name to my knowledge. Basically from what you are saying this will be a common thing for all characters in Brawl. It also makes sense that they referred to aerials giving momentum because that is supposedly how the new wavelanding works.
There are some other bizzare things I've seen, like Samus jumping into a Spindashing Sonic and somehow rising to the height of her double-jump upon contact. Momentum and position, given this new engine, will likely play a key role in battles, and it would seem that some moves may interact with each other and on their own in previously unthoughtof fashions. That, in turn, could have some effect on the way

Edit: ...on the way we play, because we might have to take into account the way attacks behave outside of just being attacks.

I don't think they will become more important than they were in melee. I say that cause jabs were very important in high level play and were used in all sorts of ways, one being to harass the enemies shield.
Certainly, jabs are already very important, but I can see them being used specifically to ruin your opponent's shield more often, is all.

I honestly don't see this becoming very prevalent XD. A much better strategy for baiting people on the ground is dash dancing, and it is not only in the game, but with characters like Sonic it will be even more effective. It's one of the things I can't wait for to do, which is ***** Sonic's dash dancing and annoy the hell out of everyone.
Dashdance into Dash Brake? Why not?

I agree with this for the most part. I really don't see the game degenerating into pure defense; however it is a somewhat valid fear to have given what we know is all.
It won't become a purely defensive game, because people won't let it. By its very nature Smash is fast-paced and insane in its offensive game, and in the hands of people who are skilled that translates into varied, focused, effective offense. It's part of what makes the game so appealing. :) Not just that, stopping your opponent from being ridiculous with shielding is as simple as doing a tilt (or any other attack). As long as your opponent is shielding, he/she is stationary, which means that he/she will have to stop shielding to do whatever sooner or later. Early on in the metagame, assuming we don't discover some new techs that change the game completely, the prevalence of poking will create a deterrence for turtling, which will in turn sustain the offensive nature of the game.

To that end, one defensive tactic I can see gain prevalence is tapping the shield button once instead of holding it for a brief defense (not counting the possibility of powershielding).

And actually, that may become somewhat of a necessary tactic, because shields may have been given a change in their endurance from Melee.

I looked at the Shielding and Dodging update today:

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/basic/basic06.html

Note the two pictures of Snake doing his basic combo against ZS Samus' shield. In the first, during the second hit of his combo, the shield is almost completely intact. In the second, during the third hit, the shield is almost destroyed. Yes, I know, there's no way one attack can do that, not even from Snake, but bear with me here because an idea is an idea.

When you're attacking a shield in either of the Smash games, you can only do so much before, chances are, you'll either screw up or end lag will catch up with you and your opponent will be able to react. Add in the reduced hitstun for Brawl and it makes it easier for your opponent. What could one do to potentially balance that? Make the shields weaker. Make them shrink faster not only from being held out but also from attacks.

What if that actually turns out to be the case? It takes a great deal to destroy your opponent's shield in Melee; if it were significantly easier in Brawl then it would certainly place a hamper in defensive play, and yet at the same time a change of focus. Just as offensive players would have to be more tactical with their attacks to avoid shieldgrabbing, defensive players would have to be more tactical with the usage of their shields, and perhaps using their offense as a more effective defense than their shield, as the situation demands--something which is certainly already done in Melee.

Yes and no. They won't be able to shield grab as well because their grabs have start up lag. So they have an advantage at getting crazy distance grabs, but they probably will be some of the few characters that will be able to shield grab.
Well, I had heard that a lot of the start and end lag on their grabs was reduced. *shrug*
 

Bajef8

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
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Nowhere, Alaska
I don't believe this is the case; however, if it is then Sakurai made a poor decision. There is no reason to try and remove as much skill or depth from a game just to stifle competitive players. Even by doing so it won't amount to much, because competitive players will always beat those that are not. What that really does is hinder the competitive scene, because they would be the ones to take the game to it's limits and if they limited the game then it would grow old and stale.
the audience of the wii is, well, everyone. so i think sakurai is making smash more towards EVRYBODY and not just the competitive players so it will be easier to play for EVERYONE and not just competitive players. the competitive audience for smash is extremely tiny compared to just your standard smash players. there are probably more casual smashers out there than competitive. so thus sakurai changed the game to fit the audienece of ALL PEOPLE rather than keep it so competitive like melee. that is why i think the changes even happened in the first place.
 

Aeramis

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
609
And actually, that may become somewhat of a necessary tactic, because shields may have been given a change in their endurance from Melee.

I looked at the Shielding and Dodging update today:

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/basic/basic06.html

Note the two pictures of Snake doing his basic combo against ZS Samus' shield. In the first, during the second hit of his combo, the shield is almost completely intact. In the second, during the third hit, the shield is almost destroyed. Yes, I know, there's no way one attack can do that, not even from Snake, but bear with me here because an idea is an idea.

When you're attacking a shield in either of the Smash games, you can only do so much before, chances are, you'll either screw up or end lag will catch up with you and your opponent will be able to react. Add in the reduced hitstun for Brawl and it makes it easier for your opponent. What could one do to potentially balance that? Make the shields weaker. Make them shrink faster not only from being held out but also from attacks.
Interesting theory. That would be great.

But I do like the idea of defensive being abit better in brawl then it was in melee (mostly because I main Link) but like MookieRah said, I hope it is not better then being offensive in terms of everyone camping because that really would ruin the game period...

By what I read on the forums and what I've seen on the brawl gameplay vids. Link sounds like he will place higher up in the tier list or atleast at first. Link is abit faster and smoother then he was in melee. He has a great defensive game mixed in with ranged attacks to slash combos for a mix of offense and defense at the sametime. He has great options when it comes to spacing. Also he can use claw shot for sheild grabs which "sounds to me" like it will be better then normal grabs in this game as long as the end lag and startup lag aren't bad in comparison. I heard the claw shot was faster then the hook shot on the demo. His jabs and upsmash are much better. He also has good power, decent speed, and enough kill moves to choose from for most situations. Even with his UpB spike gone and less damage/knockback it still plays a vital role of a get off me move (or as I like to say C-C-Combo Breaker). UpB also seems to have less end lag which is a huge plus in the long run imo. As long as Link still ***** floaty chars in general, this is looking good for me. ^^

I was wondering if you guys think being heavier characters will be a great advantage in brawl with the new floatyness physics engine. Too much floatyness is a bad thing imo (unless your jiggypuff lol). Getting to the ground faster seems like it is better in terms of speed and effectiveness for combos and surviving in general as long as you aren't easily combo'd which doesn't sound like it will be that easy in this game. All tho I could be wrong. Just wondering what you guys think.
 
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