Championship Details!!

[KishSquared]

Everyone has probably been wondering about Championship Details! We apologize for taking so long in finalizing everything. But here it is, in all its glory:

Date and Venue
The Championship will be SMYM7, held on March 24th. SMYM is in Champaign, IL. The tournament will begin at 11am, sharp!

Monies
The Championship is a stand-alone event and will go through the normal process of prize distribution. 15% of the pot will be removed for the points winners, and the rest will be divided 60/30/10% to the top three. However, unlike the other circuit events, the points are multiplied 1.5x (rounded up). First place is worth 68 points!

After the final points have been tallied, the final pot will be divided among the top three point winners 60/30/10%.

The final pot size estimates are as follows:

$536 for singles
$450 for doubles
$40 for crews

*We say “estimates” because it might change slightly depending on how the Championship budget works out. Just know that it will be even more than this after the Championship adds to the pot!


Format
So why are the points being multiplied for the Championship? That's because the format is a bit different, making it the hardest event to win yet. It will be divided into 3 rounds:

Round 1
Round 1 is, mostly, a standard Circuit elimination-style RR, where all entrants are put into pools. There are a few differences, however. First, the current top-8 points holders will NOT be playing in Round 1 - they receive a free pass to Round 2. The other difference is that only the top 16 people from Round 1 will be joining them in Round 2. So 24 people will be competing in Round 2, rather than the normal 32 playing in the final bracket.

Round 2
Round 2 is NOT a bracket. It's another RR round! The 24 contenders (top 8 with the 16 winners from Round 1) will be seeded into 4 6-man RR pools. The top 2 from each pool will move on to Round 3.

Round 3
You guessed it! The final 8 will play in a fierce 8-man Round Robin. This will truly determine who the best in the Midwest is at this point in time! No one will have an easy time making the top 3 (or the top 8 for that matter!). The top 8 will have 7 tough fights, and it's not likely that any one of them will come out of the RR unscathed.


For the rest of us, this means watching 28 amazing matches between Midwest elites. Compared to watching one or two great matches in bracket play, this is an amazing opportunity to see a lot of high-level play. We’ll, of course, be recording the matches for online distribution. Players will be required to use a tag for their name for distinguishing the matches for the sake of the distributor.


Doubles and Crews Format
Doubles will be handled similarly to Singles. Instead of the top 8 being pulled from Round 1, only the top 4 teams will be pulled. Only 8 teams will join them for Round 2, and they will play in 4 RRs of 3. Only 1 will be eliminated from each RR, so there will still be an 8-team RR for Round 3 play.

Crews will be a standard double-elim or RR, depending on the number of entrants.

Points
Points are a bit screwed up for this event, since there are less people making the final rounds and the placements are worth more. Here's the official points list:

1st – 68
2nd – 45
3rd – 30
4th – 23
5th – 15
6th – 12
7th - 10
8th - 8

9th through 24th get 5 points (Round 2 participants)

Teams will use the same distribution, with 9th through 12th getting 5 points.
Crews will use standard distribution, multiplied by 1.5x

DISCUSS!

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

will the championship be apart of the Midwest Honor Society?

 

[eighteenspikes]

If it is, there should be a one or two honor point bonus for Zelda and Mewtwo because it takes extra honor to play them with name tags (Sheik doesn't count).

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

actually thats DIShonorable. you should be able to see a character, and if you are trying to hide by being invisible, thats just cheap as hell

 

[kamikaze falco]

All three rounds. I want to cry a little inside. T_T Especially when you said that no players will leave unscathed...*shudders*

 

[AOB]

If I still enjoyed this game, I would be so excited!!!

 

[eighteenspikes]

actually thats DIShonorable. you should be able to see a character, and if you are trying to hide by being invisible, thats just cheap as hell

So.. you can do one of two things then
- make a penalty for having tags off
- make a bonus for having them on

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

So.. you can do one of two things then
- make a penalty for having tags off
- make a bonus for having them on

or ignore it.

 

[eighteenspikes]

k that works

 

[KishSquared]

Hopefully everyone has read these rules? I figured there would be more questions, but apparently the Midwest is all-accepting of bizarre rulesets ^_^

 

[KishSquared]

Oh, and to answer Rick's question, the Circuit won't be a part of the Midwest Honor Society.

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

Oh, and to answer Rick's question, the Circuit won't be a part of the Midwest Honor Society.

id honestly like to know the reason as to, why not?

 

[viperboy_74]

Hopefully everyone has read these rules? I figured there would be more questions, but apparently the Midwest is all-accepting of bizarre rulesets ^_^

no offence, but i absolutley disagree with the whole concept of determining the rounds of pools. just make them 8 man pools with 4 advancing between rounds, please.

also, it's completley ridiculous about the cuts here... you're taking 100+ entrants and cutting them to 16 in one round? that'd be rougly 13 people in a pool, with only 2 advancing out of it... why don't you just have 16 pools with 1 person advancing out of each? might as well...


nothing personal, i just really disagree with this one, moreso than any of the other changes...

 

[KishPrime]

I think the plan will likely be 16 pools.

One of the important parts of the circuit championship is still to reward people who have attended prior events. Those people will be seeded and have a better chance of advancing. You say that's a lot of cuts, but in normal circuit events RR cuts to 32. At the championship we're cutting to 24, including the 8 who are exempted. It's not that big of a difference.

 

[Echo]

alot of the people that travel to your events are people that want to play better people, and better themselves. to experience that level of competition first hand, and even learn from the experience.

SMYM6 was a huge upset because of how only 2 advanced, i know i talked to people in my pool like marth101 (sorry he's the only one that comes to my mind right now lol) and people like him that came to play better players, and they paid a hefty singles fee to enter a tournament they couldnt even play in.

sure you "top MW players" dont give a ****, but it really means alot of the rest of the midwest that they get to play when they drop that much cash, not only for the tournament fees but also the prices of gas n whatever.

am i telling you to change your championship rules? no... in fact i could see how you would be doing this for a championship type deal... i'm just throwin this in here cuz your circuit events ruined SMYM. the other 2 i had went to were alot of fun and this last one was all about getting money for you top players... and after talking to alot of "lesser people" about it they were really upset how they didnt even get to play much.

do what you want with your championship, but please let us have events to still look forward to... i was looking forward to participating in all of the next circuit, but now it just sounds like its way too much hassle and conflict. in fact we made it a thing to go to every SMYM... and now skippin it for INNsomnia...

so in conclusion... viperboy's got a point...

 

[KishPrime]

Actually, the 32 thing is just for time's sake, just to be able to finish. Cash has nothing to do with the bracket setup, so there's no point in getting upset over that. There's no elitism here.

And yes, I actually do care about people who are upset about bracket formats. I'm not really a top player anyway, I'm more interested in running things. Many tournaments just do 2 and out, but we've always tried to push for as large of RRs as possible to give players their money's worth. Time is simply a constraint. How would you have done SMYM6, were it you? Smaller pools and bigger brackets? Either way it's the same number of matches.

 

[Echo]

How many crews participated? 4? 5? and thats an honest question becuase i dont remember exactly...

crews took way too long, and for the comparison of people competing in crews, to the mass 100+ that was awaiting singles/doubles, crews could have been held last, for the people that wanted to stay and play it, not to mention crews is alot less eventful when you're not playing in it.

i also dont remember exactly what time we started singles, but it was really late, could have started about 5 hours sooner... i think when you have a crowd of 100+, 2 sets of pools really needs to be put into consideration. its a totally different situation as compared to FoB, which was less than half the size.

I'll give you credit for what happened with the lack of TVs... but if you're honestly going to try to cram all of that into a 1 day event, people are going to get ****ed, and i wouldnt be surprised if some of them dont come back... from what i understood the circuit was there to help the midwest come together, but alot of people might not even make the effort because of such a thing happening. however I dont see SMYM becoming a 2day event, either...all my point is, is that the majority of people that come to those events dont expect to win it, or even come close... they come for a good time and competing with the better players...

as much as I'd hate to go against you guys, knowing all that you've done for the smash scene, someone needs to back that dude up because he's not the only one that feels the way he does. i'm sorry that it comes off being so hostile, its not like that.

 

[Jekyll]

So...lets say we get 112 participants...Not including the top 8.

Round 1 will be 16 7-man pools.....With the top ONE advancing???

...Say it ain't so, Prime...Say it ain't so.

 

[DrewB008]

its top 2 make it out of 8 pools, with probably 12-13 people each. still pretty tough.
jekyll are you still thinking of coming to cincinnati this weekend?

 

[Jekyll]

I wish, drew. My car situation didn't exactly work out. I'm going to try and bring the whole crew out to the next one. Hopefully things work out.

 

[KishSquared]

SMYM CONCERNS
First, let me apologize for how the last SMYM came off on some people, as well as how badly it was run. I want to tell you guys that we learned a lot from the mistakes we made. We didn't run things as efficiently as you guys deserve, and we know that. We are already making changes to the format to allow more people to play.

Echo, please don't feel like you're "going against us". You guys are awesome and have an important voice to us. You travel a long way to come to our events, and please don't think for a second that we take that for granted. Thanks so much for your input.

Allow me to summarize what I saw from SMYM: We had WAY more people show up than we expected. Still, we managed to start mostly on time - 11:30am. We ran crews (8 crews participated) while arranging the pools for teams. However, the first mistake of the day was trying to finish crews before starting doubles. There was no reason to do so, and we got behind as a result. In fact, we even cut off the final match, deciding to save it for later (though we never did get back to it).

Still, doubles pools went well and mostly quickly, but the second mistake was actually something we do at every event - we ran the doubles bracket next. The problem is that we had 40+ people there that were ONLY there for Singles, not to mention all the teams that just got cut. We took a lot of time to get to the Singles event, when we shouldn't have made people wait.

So, finally, Singles started late (7:30pm~ish), and due to a lack of TVs it dragged on. Something that made it quite worse was the fact that a lot of the "good" people just played their matches first, ensuring they were the only ones moving on and giving people a lack of a reason to complete their pool. So not only did a majority of the "minor" players wait for a LONG time to play, they didn't even get much out of it.

CONCLUSION:
Once again, I don't feel like I can apologize enough to the people that had a miserable experience at SMYM. It was our fault - I take responsibility for it since AOB wasn't there and Mathos was sickly. Prime and a few others really stepped it up to get the job done, but it wasn't enough. So, I'm sorry.

MODIFICATIONS:
We're making modifications to try to assure this doesn't happen again:
1. Crews will likely not be double-elim again. It takes too much time and doesn't involve enough people. Since we need time to prepare the pools anyway, and since there's genuine interest in it, there's no real reason to remove the event. It will, from now on, either be single-elim or 2 small RR pools directly leading to a final match.

2. Singles pools will be done prior to doubles brackets. Since we're cutting the bulk of participants going from RR -> brackets, there's no logic in making them wait on doubles brackets. We did this at FOB5, and I think it worked well (even though it wasn't needed for time's sake). Therefore, the new event order is Crews -> Doubles RR -> Singles RR -> Doubles bracket -> Singles bracket

3. Pool participants ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY MORE THAN ONE MATCH IN A ROW. When the two people are done, they are both to stand up and let 2 new people play. This will prevent the RR winner from being determined before the RR is mostly done, giving people a reason to play. NOTE: This isn't anything we can enforce unless people let us know that someone's violating it. It's up to you guys to let us know.

CIRCUIT CONCERNS
Anyway, Echo, I wish there was a way to convince you guys to come. We feel we give people their money's worth at these events, with SMYM being the exception for sure. You'll get the opportunity to do Crews, Doubles RR, and Singles RR, which can be 15+ matches. If you advance from RR, you get even more matches - in fact, you're guaranteed another 5 due to the RR format. Anyway, thanks a bunch for bringing this up - it's something we needed to address. If you have any more concerns, don't hesitate to bring them up. Regardless, have a great time at INN - and maybe we'll see you there!

Viperboy, I'm not sure that you understand how this works. Round 1 is mostly normal - 8-man RRs, but only top 1 moves on (unless we have <=72 people, then it's 2!). I know, we're advancing half as many as normal. But in reality, people have a better shot at winning the RRs because the top 8 won't be participating. It's kind of a trade-off.

Also, because of Round 2 being another RR (6-man), you're guaranteed another 5 rounds if you move on. Compare that to a 32-man bracket, where half the people are out after 3 rounds. After 5 rounds, only the top 8 are left anyway! So there's no loss of rounds for people who move on - some people will get more out of it, and the top 8 will break even (and get even more matches in Round 3!)

I know, only 24 people move on to Round 2 instead of 32. 8 less people doesn't seem (to me) to be the end of the world. Honestly, it's a logistical thing with pulling out the top 8 - how do you determine #25-32 out of 16 pools? You can't do it fairly or without ties being determined by a single match (something Dope brought up). Honestly, we could do it if people think it's needed, as long as we don't have people upset at BARELY missing the cut-off.

Anyway, we're not INTENTIONALLY only letting 24 people advance. We didn't think 8 people would break the system, and we WANT it to be a bit more competitive, so we decided to do it. Do you think it's a show stopper? Let me know. If enough people think this is the case, then we'll up it to 32 again, and Round 2 will be 8-man RRs.

THANKS TO ANYONE WHO READ THIS ENTIRE THING!!!

EDIT: I feel like I should toss one more thing out there - the fact that Rounds 2 and 3 are RR means that we'll be using a LOT less TVs for the final rounds (12 for Round 2 and ONLY 4 FOR ROUND 3!!) This should ensure LOTS more opportunities for friendlies!

 

[AOB]

id honestly like to know the reason as to, why not?

If you can keep records without getting in the way and without standing around the main table, be our guest. But don't slow down the tournament for something that is quite clearly a joke.

Everyone else: When we first discussed this idea, I told Jeff to make an explanatory topic to see if there was any widespread opposition. 18spikes had a few small complaints, and that was pretty much it for a good 2 weeks or so.

Maybe some of you won't enjoy this format as much--maybe you will. But I have no doubt that it will be better for determining the top 5, and because this is the championship, and the points are so close, and there's a bunch of money to be given out, that's important. Maybe even more important than making sure everyone else has fun. After all, consider MLG's championship--if I'm not mistaken, only the top 8 players are invited, right?

 

[Dopey]

wrong andy, top 7 teams and top 7 singles are invited, then a playoff occured to choose the 8th spot for singles/doubles. just so u kno <3 andy

if 72 or less show only top 1 goes on? thats pretty dumb lol, thats alot of ppl that show up for just 1 round of RR, at least make it top 2 no matter what. this goes back to my original point that if ppl see someone like tink or darkrian in thier pool, they wont play as hard because they kno they wont advance. this is why the people not so "mid"west complain about driving so far, specially if they have rules like these to look forward to, its simply insane to make only 1 person advance. plz make it at least top 2 advance no matter how many ppl. or if its like me and trail in my pool and we both beat everyone in it flawlessly, but trail beats me like he always does, then i dont move on? i dont see the difference from brackets to RR making anything more fair about seeing who the real top 5 are. its a frikkin toss up if only 1 person moves on. if just 1 moves on the first round, im not even comin to this.

for crews i agree, takes too much time to do before anything. just make crews RR like we did at FC, that worked fine i thought.

 

[Dopey]

oh im not in RR round 1? ah thats coo, nm then.

LOL jk

i just read the WHOLE thing this time hehe, but i still think that only having 1 advance from round 1 is quite silly, lets just make it top 2, that way when someone sees they got someone tuff, they can be like "well i can move on with him" instead of "either he or me moves on" and its still gonna be tough to make the top 2, and just as competative as if it were only 1 just about.

 

[KishPrime]

I think people need to objectively step back and look at this for a second. They're advancing 24 people, instead of 32. It's a slight cut-back, yes. BUT...it's only for the first round. The scenario Dope states, while first of all misguided, won't happen in the first round because of seeding. It is misguided because the same thing can happen in brackets where Dope would run into Trail, and criticizing the RR on that basis is flawed. Jeff, if players want the full 32 to advance, you could always do the wild-card system.

At SMYM3 and 4, there were so many people that there was no RR. 25-30 people had 2 tournament matches and were out. At SMYM6, players got at least 5 tournament matches, if not 6. I fail to see how anyone was screwed out of their money, or how SMYM was ruined. Yes, things could've been scheduled differently, but five tournament matches was the absolute MINIMUM. Unless you have a two-day tournament, 4-5 guaranteed matches is basically the standard anymore, and could hardly be called a waste of money.

Let's look at the tourney-running facts. Yes, there is the possibility of one advancing per pool (noting that the Top 8 are exempted for the championship, so you can't lose to one of them) making a total of 24 advancing. In that case they're doing 16 pools because we have 65-120 people, but still everyone is guaranteed at least 4 tournament matches, more likely 5-6. If you want 2 to advance per pool, they'd have to compress pools into 8-10 man pools, which now puts us in a time crunch, AND makes pools twice as competitive so your chances to advance are still the same. If there are less than 64 people, everyone will get 5-7 pool matches at minimum, and two will advance per pool. It all comes back to time and attendance. It has nothing to do with elitism, money-grubbing, or anything of that nature.

Crews was a noble experiment, but it seems that regular tournaments just might not have time to fit them in. It was well advertised that this was something new. Perhaps that's what is causing the majority of the problems. We knew how long everything would take, but I don't think anyone figured that having a long day would be a problem for anyone.

 

[AOB]

But Dope... if we advance 2 people from round 1, we have 40 people in round 2. That's 4 pools of 10 (no!) or 8 pools of 5, instead of 4 pools of 6. If we then advance 2 people from each pool, we have 16 people, and we'd have to do an additional round before the final. If we advance only one person from round 2 out of each pool, instead of 2, you might end up with Trail in your pool and you'd be screwed.

It looks like either round 1 or round 2 has to advance 1, and the other can advance 2. The point of this whole thing is to determine the top places more accurately, so the second round is more important.

 

[Pong]

rawr rawr if its one person advancing that will make it tough but im just stating what others have allready.
Im looking forard to this, but im not sure i like the rules 100%

 

[Echo]

CIRCUIT CONCERNS
Anyway, Echo, I wish there was a way to convince you guys to come. We feel we give people their money's worth at these events, with SMYM being the exception for sure. You'll get the opportunity to do Crews, Doubles RR, and Singles RR, which can be 15+ matches. If you advance from RR, you get even more matches - in fact, you're guaranteed another 5 due to the RR format. Anyway, thanks a bunch for bringing this up - it's something we needed to address. If you have any more concerns, don't hesitate to bring them up. Regardless, have a great time at INN - and maybe we'll see you there!!

lol dont worry bout it dude its not like i'm hatin on you guys and not gonna come to anything, in fact you'll probably see us at every next circuit event, cuz smeesh and I want to see how many points we'd end up with if we actually attended them all... the only real reason we're going to INN instead of SMYM was because we can only pick one (financial purposes =/) and we just thought we'd get alot of experience being somewhere we've never seen yet... and we're not in the championship deal here so we just didnt know how that would turn out, its a tough call to be honest...

i'm not even complaining for my own benefit... at every event i've attended I have made it out of brackets, even with the tough cut of top 2 at SMYM, and playing extremely poorly at FoB didnt even matter cuz like top 4 advanced out of 6 lol gotta love that ;]... but i have gotten to know alot of people around the midwest that arent as great smash-wise, and they try to get better by coming to this, and thats what we do, as well... I mean we make these drives out to IL/ID, but we're not stupid, we don't expect to win it or anything lol we just come to give our best to you guys, and it honestly helps... it shows us what we need to work on or even new things to try.

unfortunetely, the only ones from NE that have performed well enough to make it out of brackets have been smeesh and myself, so when we try to convince other people from around here to come along with us, its kind of tough because alot of people dont want to put down that much money to just go play a couple matches of pools. Last SMYM we swung past Iowa to pick somebody up (Victor2000 but no one probably knows who that kid is >.>) and we thought we'd show him what SMYM was like because he was stuck in Iowa forever and wanted to see the real competetion. I havent heard from that kid since. He was all about smash, was doing everything he could to get better and was quickly learning everything he could to his fox... but then all of a sudden just quits? it doesnt make sense, and no i have no proof that its because of what happened to him at SMYM, but it just really seemed like he didnt have a good time at all and was really let down.

again i apoligize for it sounding so hostile, cuz it isnt like that at all... but i know theres plenty of people out there that have an opinion about it but just wont say anything (and yeah i realize even I myself didnt say anything about it before you even started all of this)... I dont even know why i'm here cuz I dont know anything about runnin big tournies, and so I cant even give any real input. I just wish there was a way to fit more in, and 2 day events can be really troublesome for too many people. maybe its just an issue with TVs... or perhaps its even the fact thats its the first time this circuit thing was even tried, who knows how the next one could run...

Unless you have a two-day tournament, 4-5 guaranteed matches is basically the standard anymore, and could hardly be called a waste of money.

This is a really good point, and though I think its more fun to play your way through it and feel you deserve it, theres just... somethin about it =/ I guess theres no real way to make everyone happy... but when the majority of the people arent even going to place, they're just going to play people for experience... theres gotta be something that can be done, right? I trust that you guys know what you're doing, and are gonna take care of the problems with it all... i just want to make sure that you put alot of emphasis on making sure its still a fun time for everyone, rather than making it such a competetive race for the top 15.

 

[KishSquared]

Unless you have a two-day tournament, 4-5 guaranteed matches is basically the standard anymore, and could hardly be called a waste of money.

I don't think the majority of complaints are with the number of matches. I think people felt shafted because of the scheduling issues (some people didn't even play until 7 hours after showing up) and with the "good" players playing all their matches first, thus making their pool matches seem more pointless. These issues will be fixed at SMYM7.

But Tim makes a good point. I'm not sure how many matches people want, but compared to a double-elim, a RR takes the cake. You get matches against a variety of people, and yes, you're going to have someone good in your pool.

Dope, I don't think people "don't try" as much as you think they do. Most people attend tournaments to gauge their level of skill and see how well they can do. At these Circuit events, the "upper rounds" of play are reward for the top 32 (or 24). Attendees to not "deserve" these extra rounds - and they are not "shelling out money" for them. They get what they pay for - a guaranteed 5-7 matches with players of various skill, and a chance to enter a bracket.

There's nothing wrong will getting eliminated in Round 1. A lot of people are viewing this as "exclusion" from the rest of the tournament. But would you rather have everyone seeded into a double-elim for the sake of "inclusion"? The low-seed players are guaranteed to play a high-seed player, so "double-elim" becomes "single-elim" right away for 1/4 of the participants, and half of the participants are out after 2 rounds!

It's bad for high-level players because there's no competitive integrity (Dope could play Trail early - what's that prove?) and it's bad for low-level players because they don't play as many rounds.

So let me just ask - what do you guys want to see? What SPECIFICALLY would you change about the ruleset?

EDIT:

This is a really good point, and though I think its more fun to play your way through it and feel you deserve it, theres just... somethin about it =/.

Well said. I think there's a perception of progression with brackets that a RR doesn't satisfy. A person feels like they "made it far" in a bracket even when they go 2-2, whereas the same person could probably go 4-2 or 4-3 in a RR but not make it to the bracket and feel like it wasn't worth the trip.

I do wish there was a compromise, but I don't see one at this point. I've wished for YEARS now that people would see the value in RRs, but it hasn't happened and I don't expect it to. All I can say is that if you want to get better, then make the most out of RRs. I can guarantee that playing a RR and missing out on brackets will get you more experience than playing a bracket and getting out early.

Echo, I appreciate everything you've said. And no, you don't sound hostile at all - you never once said anything insulting or demeaning. Ultimately, SMYM had issues that we intend to resolve, and hopefully that's an encouragement for everyone.

 

[KishPrime]

I appreciate your input Echo, and your acknowledgement that you don't have all the answers. If people want to see how time breaks down, I'll go through it with you step-by-step.

32-man double-elim bracket with full complement of TVs (max number of matches at once): 4 hours
64-man double-elim bracket with full complement of TVs (max number of matches at once): : 7 hours
One set of 8-man pools with 4 TVs: 2 hours
One set of 8-man pools with 2 TVs: 3.5 hours

SMYM ran in about 7 hours (roughly 6-1:30), which matches eight sets of 6-7 man pools plus a 32-man bracket. If we make singles run for 10 hours, yes, we can do a 64-man bracket, but crews is scrapped, and it only gets 32 people two more matches out of 110. It's not time-efficient. If people can make the numbers given above work, please show me how.

For all Jeff said about SMYM running poorly, I actually thought it was a great success. In one day we got in 5 full tournament rounds. That means we were incredibly time-efficient, and EVERY player got at least 5 matches in-tournament. Shrug. Like I said, if you want to change something, make a suggestion. The fact is, we've always tried to give people their money's worth as a PRIORITY. The championship has other goals, but everyone will still get their money's worth.

 

[AOB]

I know of something we should have done differently--keep an extra copy of the pools! No more "oh, uhm, I don't know where that pool ended up, so just check all of them." And yes, that would be me saying that, even though I heard it in my head with a goofy voice as I wrote it.

 

[viperboy_74]

by kish2 -

"what do you guys want to see? What SPECIFICALLY would you change about the ruleset?"

i'm not concerned by number of matches, i'm concerned with first round cuts from pools. not even for my self, per say, but keep in mind things like this - there are a few elite players that will be in pools. if you only let one advance, how do you think the other 8 people in vidjo's or matho's pools are going to feel? how would you feel seeing yourself in vido's pool and knowing only one advnaces?
to make it worse, if you cut pools to 8 and have 2 advance, it's the same concept just to a larger scale.


cut crews, no one wants to really finish them anyway, the ship has already won them, no point in keeping them going. that'll leave more time, plus this starts at 11, be strict on that...

that gives you plenty of more time to run rounds.


RR1 - do 8 pools with 3 advancing from each, add your 8 top place holders in and you'll have 32 men left.

RR2 - do 8 pools of 4, top 2 advancing, cutting it to 16.

RR3 - do 2 pools of 8, top 4 advancing

RR4 - top 8 players.


much more fair, not bad on time, still gets to see who is the best.

thinking about it, i like the RR idea for finals pools, i really do, but i really dislike the method chosen getting to those final 8. use something like i just suggested. it wo'nt be that much time difference, especially if you cut crews AND there will be many more set-ups after the first round of pools

 

[KishSquared]

TJ, I'd love to do something like that, but RR1 won't work if we get more than 64 people (not counting top 8). You can't do pools of more than 8 people. We'll likely have 16 pools, so #1-16 are easy to determine. What about #17-24?

The rest is basically the same, except that you're adding RR3 between RR2 (Our Round 2) and RR4 (our Round 3). Is there really any reason to do that? Why not just have the winners from RR2 play in an 8-man final? And I doubt people will like having to play so many matches - that's more matches than you get at FC

 

[viperboy_74]

see, i'm fine with having 16 pools, but you have to have 2 advance... one only is just not enough.

the rest is the same beuase i kind of like that idea now, thinking about it, it'll be for the better in the long run, but getting to that point it just too much

 

[KishSquared]

So what's your solution to 16 pools? How do we pull 24 people from 16?

Also, I'm not opposed to cutting crews if there isn't any interest in it. I'd like to still leave it open at this point. We could also try to run it at the end - the RR system should take a bit less time than brackets.

 

[viperboy_74]

could we do something points based?

and i'm sure no one else wants to do crews... besides, if we cut them, we'd have more time to pass more ppl through RR's, right?

 

[KishSquared]

Right now, we have enough time to run both RRs and crews. But crews can be discussed later.

So we have 16 pools, TJ. The winner of each pool moves on, along with the top 8 points-holders? Does that solve the issue?

Maybe it'd help if you defined what exactly you don't like about the Round 1 -> Round 2 process. Are you just fighting to get 8 more people to the next round?

 

[viperboy_74]

yeah, thats pretty much what i'm going for, to get 32 people into the second round, not just 24. a tourney of this size, that's just too many cuts.

the top 16 is too many to give a by to, being these 16:
1. Tink (99 pts)
2. Dope (83 pts)
3. Darkrain (80 pts)
4. D-rephen (64 pts)
5. KishPrime (57 pts)
6. KishSquared (37 pts)
7. Iggy (32pts)
8. JoeBushman111 (31 pts)
9. Vidjo (30pts)
10. Eddie (28 pts)
11. Cunning (25pts)
12. Trail (24 pts)
13. B-ryan (22 pts)
13. Mathos (22 pts)
15. Viperboy (18 pts)
16. Jiano (17 pts)

8 is fine, but 16 is too many to just pass into the next round, BUT could you do some point system like you were just talking about? not give the 9-16 placers by's, but something to weigh them in as well?

 

[KishPrime]

Hey I have a solution. I said it earlier.

EDIT: Basically do it just like I said at the start of this process and do it NFL Wild-card style and pull the eight next-best records out of the sixteen pools. It's not as complicated as it sounds. So if you swept your pool except for the winner 2-0 and took one round off of him, you'd be practically guaranteed to get into the next round. It eliminates those 2-3-4 three way tied people right off the bat, and will allow for some of the 1-2-3 ties to get everyone in, which is actually much more fair.

The slight problem with this is that now you are only pulling eight out of the next round, so two people out of an eight-man pool.

Also TJ, don't forget that pools will be seeded by points still. Vidjo would technically be in a pool with the 41st and 42nd ranked players. It's not like it's a bad draw for the 41-42 guys, they should be expecting someone elite with those placings.

 

[KishSquared]

I know we have ways of getting 32 to Round 2, but I guess wanted to make sure that people know that it's only 8 more people that get in, and it DOESN'T guarantee that top 2 will move on from each pool.

If you guys realize that, and you still want SOME method of determining how 8 people can get up there, then we can do it. I don't see why not.

Tim, I'm a bit afraid of using the wildcard method because the majority of people in second are going to be 6-1, and we might well have more than 8 people tied in win %. Do we use points as tie-breakers then?

The nice thing about the wildcard concept is that every match counts, which should keep people trying.