Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kaoak]

Great explanation, I have some questions regarding Falco, and one other open ended question regarding "staple moves".

1a) What should Marth's goal be in the neutral game vs. aggressive Falco (Falcos that laser mainly as a means to approach and gain advantage before threatening to go in).
1b) Same as 1a. but for defensive Falco (Falco that forces you to approach by holding a position and lasering)
1c) How should I avoid being pressured into shield against Falco? When should I shield and what other options do I have?
1d) How should I punish the startup lag of laser to net myself a big punish? I feel like rising fair often beats laser, but at low % the Falco lands before me and I have either reset neutral or am now in a disadvantageous position.

This is a pretty open ended question coming up. Ignore it if you'd like.

2) What would you consider to be "staple" against certain characters in the cast. You mention dtilt not being staple vs. Fox, but it is clearly staple vs. some other characters such as Peach. What options would you consider to be staple in certain (let's say top 4) matchups, and what options would you consider significantly weakened, such as dash dance vs. Falco in those same matchups?

Basically what should Marth be using as an integral part of his neutral game and what should he only be using as a mixup, not at all, or only in specific situations (such as dtilt vs dash dance camping Falcons) & versus whom.

 

[Kopaka]

To make things fun I'll also argue against my previous paragraph, saying often people don't like using a tool anymore if it's beaten a few times in a row. If you could manipulate this mixup such that you can take away someone's confidence in jumping then you've succeeded in a big way as Marth.

Absolutely. I do believe that Marth has the tools to force people to stop coming in from above, and once that's done, they've got nowhere to approach but the ground, which is exactly what Marth wants. One thing that I seemed to be doing wrong was think that every time Fox jumped, I had to do something IMMEDIATELY when the jump came out. But seeing the jump is only the first step. What comes after is the important part, because the initial jump could be to get Marth to swing. (And I'd always swing lol). The land can also be important, because if they land they can shine/jab/spotdodge/continue to dash.. So you wait by moving in, but not TOO close to get caught by any of those options. What I'm getting at is during the whole sequence of Fox full or short hopping, however close or far away you decide to be, whatever kind of hitbox you throw out, has an impact or a message on what will happen next. Confusion in these situations may happen to some, but as long as you learn to build a sense of confidence in your tools, whatever happens next should be in your control even if you do get hit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Great explanation, I have some questions regarding Falco, and one other open ended question regarding "staple moves".

1a) What should Marth's goal be in the neutral game vs. aggressive Falco (Falcos that laser mainly as a means to approach and gain advantage before threatening to go in).
1b) Same as 1a. but for defensive Falco (Falco that forces you to approach by holding a position and lasering)
1c) How should I avoid being pressured into shield against Falco? When should I shield and what other options do I have?
1d) How should I punish the startup lag of laser to net myself a big punish? I feel like rising fair often beats laser, but at low % the Falco lands before me and I have either reset neutral or am now in a disadvantageous position.

This is a pretty open ended question coming up. Ignore it if you'd like.

2) What would you consider to be "staple" against certain characters in the cast. You mention dtilt not being staple vs. Fox, but it is clearly staple vs. some other characters such as Peach. What options would you consider to be staple in certain (let's say top 4) matchups, and what options would you consider significantly weakened, such as dash dance vs. Falco in those same matchups?

Basically what should Marth be using as an integral part of his neutral game and what should he only be using as a mixup, not at all, or only in specific situations (such as dtilt vs dash dance camping Falcons) & versus whom.

1a. Neutralize the approach before/as it happens and get close to him on your terms.
1b. Beat out any counterattacks coming in and reflecting lasers/stopping zoning attacks like Bair and then get close to Falco on your terms.
1c. If you can PS/take laser jab or dash back/side b or other attack through laser/etc you won't have to shield. That said it's not like Falco won't struggle some with Fair OOS. I say only shield when you absolutely have to, but you could probably do some running shield sometimes to get stage position if you were cornered and you thought Falco would move through you/do a high move on shield.
1d. You're still in a really good position from the Fair so just learn to beat that position. I also like Nair/Ftilt/side B(they might jump away which can be nice if you catch the jump), jab, even Fsmash if you can somewhat predict it(laser will cancel your lag if you're wrong so this can be good sometimes).

2. I won't be considering dash dance as an option against any of those characters. I'll list what I believe are staples for the top 4 matchups though:

Fox: Rising Fair, Grab(approach or pivot)
Falco: (Jab), Pivot Grab, general laser counterplay like PS/take laser attack/rising Fair/Nair/side B/etc(of these I'd probably pick PS/Fair/take laser action as most important)
Marth: Dtilt, Grab(approach or pivot), then slightly lower on the list you have approach Fair/Nair, then below that I feel like Fsmash is a fairly consistent threat
Sheik: Dtilt, Grab(more approaching than pivot I find), Fair(not rising usually), below that Fsmash

Honestly Fsmash is kinda sick but also hard to use so I wasn't sure about putting it on here.

 

[Taytertot]

i feel as though the last several posts have kind of answered this but id like to make these answers more tangible to a specific situation. i was playing vs a fox who was punishing me a lot with things like full hopping and then using shine at about marth's head height to turn himself around and then he'd retreating dj bair me (the shine being used a few character lengths away so that id try to run in to get in range to punish the full hop and would get hit or he'd get away by landing on a platform). For some reason this as well as other mixups were destroying my DD neutral game and i believe it was because i was looking to punish an aggressive approach with semi-passive DD grab stuff but im uncertain what my course of action would be since he seemed to be reacting to my space pretty well and backing off if he didnt create the opening he was looking for. so im curious how i can be more proactive in playing against a fox who's more comfortable with being more hit and run, whiff punish oriented. this set happened a while ago so unfortunately i dont remember a lot of the set but i remember getting messed up even when i tried to mixup the way i handled his pressure. im sorry thats not a lot of info to go off of, but if anyone's dealt with similar situations and found answers for it then id appreciate it.

 

[Kaoak]

You mentioned rising fair a lot in there, I find that when I use rising fair against a character like Fox I put myself at risk by being in the air. If the Fox shields the fair or run up crouches I get punished very hard and even if the fair connects, it connects while I am rising so I feel like I can't net too much off of it other than a bit of %. When is rising fair good, should it ever be used as an approach versus Fox & also when should you fair vs nair?

Also I agree with your mention of fsmash. It's a hard move to call "staple" because it requires both an understanding of how your opponent plays neutral and an understanding of how to condition your opponent into being weak to fsmash by consistently punishing the habits that beat fsmash, like shield for example.

Finally why didn't you consider dash dance as an option vs. those characters?

Thanks again for a great response.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You mentioned rising fair a lot in there, I find that when I use rising fair against a character like Fox I put myself at risk by being in the air. If the Fox shields the fair or run up crouches I get punished very hard and even if the fair connects, it connects while I am rising so I feel like I can't net too much off of it other than a bit of %. When is rising fair good, should it ever be used as an approach versus Fox & also when should you fair vs nair?

Also I agree with your mention of fsmash. It's a hard move to call "staple" because it requires both an understanding of how your opponent plays neutral and an understanding of how to condition your opponent into being weak to fsmash by consistently punishing the habits that beat fsmash, like shield for example.

Finally why didn't you consider dash dance as an option vs. those characters?

Thanks again for a great response.

You should rising Fair if you think the Fox will jump or not hold down on your attack or you can space it on shield, in that order. So if you catch a Fox with it or you attack him in a position where he is more likely to do something that rising Fair doesn't work against(middle of the level stage positioning is one variable that would make this more likely) then you don't do it. Rising Fair is a fine approach tool vs Fox but it isn't something you always do like a Falco SHL. Marth rewards understanding why each interaction played out as it did and really hurts misunderstanding. Nair is mostly good vs Fox as a means of controlling your own space, but most top Foxes aren't jumping in to approach any more and will Dtilt or use a close-range move like shine which you can react to Marth's jump and stop your attack before it goes through.

Dash dancing is its own tool, but I'd much rather present it to people as a means by which his attacks are threatened. How he uses each threat in a given matchup is manipulated by dash dancing, but it isn't dash dancing itself that's the threat in a way, if that makes sense.

 

[Kaoak]

You should rising Fair if you think the Fox will jump or not hold down on your attack or you can space it on shield, in that order. So if you catch a Fox with it or you attack him in a position where he is more likely to do something that rising Fair doesn't work against(middle of the level stage positioning is one variable that would make this more likely) then you don't do it. Rising Fair is a fine approach tool vs Fox but it isn't something you always do like a Falco SHL. Marth rewards understanding why each interaction played out as it did and really hurts misunderstanding. Nair is mostly good vs Fox as a means of controlling your own space, but most top Foxes aren't jumping in to approach any more and will Dtilt or use a close-range move like shine which you can react to Marth's jump and stop your attack before it goes through.

Dash dancing is its own tool, but I'd much rather present it to people as a means by which his attacks are threatened. How he uses each threat in a given matchup is manipulated by dash dancing, but it isn't dash dancing itself that's the threat in a way, if that makes sense.

By middle of the level stage positioning do you mean that the Fox is in the middle of the level or I am in the middle of the level?

Also I understand why you wouldn't list dash dance as a "staple". It's more of a means to an end and carries no weight by itself.

 

[capusa27]

Hi, Dr Peepee

What do you think about Marth's edgeguards on Falcon? What do you think Marths do incorrectly at low, mid, and high percent? Do you think edgeguarding difficulties contribute the most to disliking the matchup because it gives Falcon more opportunities to use his brutal punish game as Marth's tools start to diminish at higher percent? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

By middle of the level stage positioning do you mean that the Fox is in the middle of the level or I am in the middle of the level?

Also I understand why you wouldn't list dash dance as a "staple". It's more of a means to an end and carries no weight by itself.

Fox is in the middle.

Hi, Dr Peepee

What do you think about Marth's edgeguards on Falcon? What do you think Marths do incorrectly at low, mid, and high percent? Thanks.

Low percents Marths need to gamble more since theres no easy Falcon edgeguard there. Mid and high percent you just cover edge with Dtilt/Fsmash/runoff Fair/shieldbreaker and if Falcon up-Bs high you can jump and drift with him then hit him just as you land to keep him closer to you for another hit. You can also FH out and DJ Dair Falcon a lot of the time and avoid the mixup altogether.

 

[capusa27]

Another question, why do you post in the Marth boards and not the Falco boards? Do you enjoy talking about Marth more? Just curious Dr Peepee

 

[Dr Peepee]

Another question, why do you post in the Marth boards and not the Falco boards? Do you enjoy talking about Marth more? Just curious Dr Peepee

I've actually been planning to go back to the Falco boards soon. Falcos like talking about tech skill and not theory in general and it's frustrating to me, whereas Marths have tended to be more likely to discuss the nuances of the game.

I probably am also better at discussing Marth since he's a more straightforward character and I was taught him in a sensible way by Umbreon and Cactuar. A lot of my Falco knowledge is still somewhat intuitive(self-taught) and it's much harder for me to present information well for him.

 

[Taytertot]

My last post was kinda cluttered but id like to understand fundamentally what im doing wrong.

Ive realized that i dont play well against foxs or falcos who are comfortable sitting back patiently in neutral and then catching me when i try to find a way in. Now obviously this suggests that maybe im not challenging the space im taking with a hitbox enough, but i feel like i do try to mix up throwing out a hitbox to challenge the space and i still get punished more often then not.

This could be several things and id assume a combination of them is the problem as well as why im unsure exactly what im doing wrong. So, how should i think/play more proactively against spacies if they arent super aggro?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You would benefit well from compound approaches, or feints. I recommend moving in deeply and then back to punish their action or to get an observation from what they did when you went in. You can also move slightly forward to get them to not attack you and then move fully in. Those are some simple solutions you could try messing with. The principles behind them are important but it may be better to understand it some by doing and through analysis after reading this.

 

[bts.mongoose]

What are the pros/cons of doing run forward -> fade back nair as opposed to run forward -> fade back double fair? It seems to me that fair might net better followups at low percents, but it seems to me that top Marth players use almost exclusively fade back nair, so I assume I'm missing something.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair is a stronger hit and safer at lower percents. Fair is faster to get a relevant hitbox out. Nair also ACs so it has less lag. They're both good and can be used somewhat interchangeably.

 

[capusa27]

Hi Dr Peepee

I have yet another Pikachu question for you. What do you think of down tilt hit confirm to shffl neutral air v Pikachu, specifically v crouch cancelling and shield?

Do you think it's more advantageous than forward air v a crouch cancelling Pikachu since N-air is harder to whiff punish and Pikachu is most likely going to retaliate with an airial and be hit by neutral air?

Or, do you think there are safer options to deal with crouch cancelling and punishing Pikachu in shield?

If so, what do you think they are?

Thanks. I know Pikachu isn't something on which you focus, but I love to hear your thoughts on an underdeveloped match-up that a lot of Marths don't seem to like.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi Dr Peepee

I have yet another Pikachu question for you. What do you think of down tilt hit confirm to shffl neutral air v Pikachu, specifically v crouch cancelling and shield?

Do you think it's more advantageous than forward air v a crouch cancelling Pikachu since N-air is harder to whiff punish and Pikachu is most likely going to retaliate with an airial and be hit by neutral air?

Or, do you think there are safer options to deal with crouch cancelling and punishing Pikachu in shield?

If so, what do you think they are?

Thanks. I know Pikachu isn't something on which you focus, but I love to hear your thoughts on an underdeveloped match-up that a lot of Marths don't seem to like.

The thing with Nair vs Pikachu is it takes so long to hit the low profile of Pika that they can react in time and get away or hit you before that hitbox comes out. I only like Nair vs Pikachu's Nair. Since Fair gets to a useful hitbox vs low profiles faster and it can also beat Pikachu's Nair I prefer Fair.

Dtilt doesn't confirm into any punish besides observe(well barring some pivot Fsmash setups at mid/higher percent but you know what I mean). You can make the Nair work but I wouldn't consider it a standard Dtilt followup at all.

When Pikachu is shielding you just need to space. Pikachu can't do ANYTHING if you're spaced on their shield except back up. That's great for you since a cornered Pikachu can no longer DD as effectively. For CC you mainly want to space Fair and Dtilt. Fair because of what I said above and Dtilt because it can also cover Pika Dtilt approaches or give you a safer approach/poke.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's pretty challenging for Pikachu to punish Marth's d-tilt from my experience. Generally he has to bait you into a shallow d-tilt so he can CC d-smash it or upsmash out of shield. He can also do a rising uair out of shield, but it only works if Marth is behind him.

I find that Pikachu's dash dance nair is pretty terrible at whiff punishing d-tilt shenanigans, because Marth crouches pretty low when d-tilting and Pikachu's nair tends to just go over Marth's head.

I might have to go back and see how Axe does it, but if I feel that he does a decent job of using Pikachu's speed to get people to hit his shield with poor spacing.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

Yeah. I too noticed that down tilt was very effective against Pikachu after watching Axe v Tai. After reading your post, I thought "Why wouldn't Pikachu just up-b out of Marth's down tilt pressure, but then I realized that it would be too slow and Melee isn't 64. :D

 

[bts.mongoose]

More abstract question: Do you think it's a worthwhile use of time to "main" different characters in the top 8 for 2-3 weeks to try and develop a better understanding of the options that other characters want to do? If not, what's the most efficient way to develop that understanding?

 

[Kaoak]

Since you've mentioned listening to music as a powerful tool, I was wondering what exactly you mean by that. I always find that listening to music makes me play much worse, should I listen to particular types of music versus different characters? What do you recommend?

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Obvious disclaimer: I'm not PP but I do listen to music frequently when playing Melee so I'll give you my two cents on this topic.

I listen to music while playing Smash for a few reasons.

First off, the music helps me focus on the game by isolating noise, making it harder to hear the crowd and easier to hear my music.

Secondly, music can help give me direction on how I want to play that game. When listening to music, I tend to feed off of the beat and the rhythm of the song and put that into my game. The pace I play at depends on how fast the song I'm listening to is.

If I listen to a fast paced and energetic song with lyrics, I tend to play very aggressively and stylish. I play more off of emotion and what I'm feeling when listening to this type of music. However, my stamina tends to get drained when I listen to these songs because I just get soo emotionally invested in the game and the song. More calm songs and slow songs, like instrumentals, allow me to slow down the pace of the match and think logically about what I am doing. My stamina doesn't get mentally drained as much with these songs so these are listened to much more.

Along with categorizing songs based on their tempo, I also categorize them based on what character they seem to "fit". Like, I feel like when I pick songs for certain characters, I use the character's stereotypes in order to judge whether a song fits that character. Like, I think Falco is a very stylish character who is played very aggressively (Probably not a stereotype everyone thinks of) because that's just how I've always seen Falcos, especially my favorite players who play Falco. Let me give an example on how I judge a song.

For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDUC1LUXSU&list=PLjf-NEiEncVj5rTc1Xrxj4WVi8YDjvawD&index=35

This song is Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke. First thing I do when I pick a song I want to use for playing Melee is what I first imagine when I here the song. For me, I just imagine a Falco just stylishly going at an opponent with clean combos and buttery smooth movement. The Falco isn't "Right in your face all the time" aggressive. It's more going at an opponent passive aggressively if that makes sense. The beat is very easy to hear and it's satisfying. The reason why I said the combos would be clean and the movement would be amazing is because the lyrics and other background music is very simple and easy to listen to. If I were to listen to this song, I'd listen to it if I am extremely confident in my movement and combo game and if I wanted to disrespect my opponent.

To answer your first question, listening to music is a powerful if you can understand the music that you listen to and know how to take that emotion and rhythm you feel from the song and implement that into your game.

To answer your second question, you should try to do listen to different music depending on the character. The way I pick music for matchups is: The tempo of the match, whether the character is easy to combo or not, how I feel when I'm playing that character etc.

That's all I'm going to say right now. Sorry if some of the stuff I wrote either sounds stupid or does not make sense at all. I would really like to revisit this topic in the future once I become much better. I'l most likely have a different opinion on this subject in several months.

 

[Sutekh]

I personally can't play with headphones in. I find myself paying more attention to the music and i just autopilot. The sound of a crowd has never really bothered me though, and i kind of find myself feeding off of the energy of the room. Obviously its different for everyone, you just need to experiment and see what works for you!

 

[ridemyboat]

I like to listen to death metal while I'm getting combo'd by Falco, and instrumental music when I'm not in hitstun, such as when I am relaxing on a recovery platform or when the game is paused.

 

[Dr Peepee]

More abstract question: Do you think it's a worthwhile use of time to "main" different characters in the top 8 for 2-3 weeks to try and develop a better understanding of the options that other characters want to do? If not, what's the most efficient way to develop that understanding?

I personally recommend playing your main and then developing secondaries in your non-main time. This averages like 80% main 20% other more or less. So you would just rotate that secondary slot. I just am a stronger believer in the understanding from your main flowing into the other characters, but I know that people learn differently. This is just what worked for me and it's fairly consistent with how better players improved.

Since you've mentioned listening to music as a powerful tool, I was wondering what exactly you mean by that. I always find that listening to music makes me play much worse, should I listen to particular types of music versus different characters? What do you recommend?

Music is powerful but not always during playing. For example, I don't really get much out of music myself and prefer to hear the game sounds even if it means I'm more likely to be distracted by the crowd if they're booing me(when not focused). But, I might see some improvement in my analysis or discussion with another person when I have music on. So in this way music can still be powerful but not for playing. I also have a suspicion that it might take a strong connection to certain music to put people in a focused state and everyone might not have that OR it might be necessary for some people but not others. Just a thought!

 

[Keebler]

I'm having a bit of an argument with some friends right now about the Pikachu match-up. My friend made the bold claim that Pika "destroys" Marth. In my opinion it's at best even, and more than likely it's in favor of Marth due to superior neutral game options and better range. What is your opinion on the match-up?

 

[CP Adagio]

Obvious disclaimer: I'm not PP but I do listen to music frequently when playing Melee so I'll give you my two cents on this topic.

I listen to music while playing Smash for a few reasons.

First off, the music helps me focus on the game by isolating noise, making it harder to hear the crowd and easier to hear my music.

Secondly, music can help give me direction on how I want to play that game. When listening to music, I tend to feed off of the beat and the rhythm of the song and put that into my game. The pace I play at depends on how fast the song I'm listening to is.

If I listen to a fast paced and energetic song with lyrics, I tend to play very aggressively and stylish. I play more off of emotion and what I'm feeling when listening to this type of music. However, my stamina tends to get drained when I listen to these songs because I just get soo emotionally invested in the game and the song. More calm songs and slow songs, like instrumentals, allow me to slow down the pace of the match and think logically about what I am doing. My stamina doesn't get mentally drained as much with these songs so these are listened to much more.

Along with categorizing songs based on their tempo, I also categorize them based on what character they seem to "fit". Like, I feel like when I pick songs for certain characters, I use the character's stereotypes in order to judge whether a song fits that character. Like, I think Falco is a very stylish character who is played very aggressively (Probably not a stereotype everyone thinks of) because that's just how I've always seen Falcos, especially my favorite players who play Falco. Let me give an example on how I judge a song.

For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDUC1LUXSU&list=PLjf-NEiEncVj5rTc1Xrxj4WVi8YDjvawD&index=35

This song is Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke. First thing I do when I pick a song I want to use for playing Melee is what I first imagine when I here the song. For me, I just imagine a Falco just stylishly going at an opponent with clean combos and buttery smooth movement. The Falco isn't "Right in your face all the time" aggressive. It's more going at an opponent passive aggressively if that makes sense. The beat is very easy to hear and it's satisfying. The reason why I said the combos would be clean and the movement would be amazing is because the lyrics and other background music is very simple and easy to listen to. If I were to listen to this song, I'd listen to it if I am extremely confident in my movement and combo game and if I wanted to disrespect my opponent.

To answer your first question, listening to music is a powerful if you can understand the music that you listen to and know how to take that emotion and rhythm you feel from the song and implement that into your game.

To answer your second question, you should try to do listen to different music depending on the character. The way I pick music for matchups is: The tempo of the match, whether the character is easy to combo or not, how I feel when I'm playing that character etc.

That's all I'm going to say right now. Sorry if some of the stuff I wrote either sounds stupid or does not make sense at all. I would really like to revisit this topic in the future once I become much better. I'l most likely have a different opinion on this subject in several months.

I agree bro, songs about r.ape tend to lend themselves well to melee in my experience

 

[Cactuar]

Honestly Fsmash is kinda sick

10/10

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee What do you think are Marth's best defensive options, in general? Marth isn't particularly good when he's put in a disadvantageous state, but it seems like when he's being pressured he only has wavedash oos, the occasional UpB oos or a roll (I know there's shieldgrab, but that's a punish, so), and it just seems like it's not enough to keep an opponent guessing. Is it really just a matter of mixing up these few relatively poor defensive options? I can't seem to shake opponents (particularly spacies) without taking a lot of damage when losing just one neutral exchange. As Marth, is there anything I should be keeping in mind if I get outplayed and my opponent makes it into my space?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee What do you think are Marth's best defensive options, in general? Marth isn't particularly good when he's put in a disadvantageous state, but it seems like when he's being pressured he only has wavedash oos, the occasional UpB oos or a roll (I know there's shieldgrab, but that's a punish, so), and it just seems like it's not enough to keep an opponent guessing. Is it really just a matter of mixing up these few relatively poor defensive options? I can't seem to shake opponents (particularly spacies) without taking a lot of damage when losing just one neutral exchange. As Marth, is there anything I should be keeping in mind if I get outplayed and my opponent makes it into my space?

It's a bad position because you don't have great options. You can lightshield/shield (S)DI to get away from attacks though and combine that with the options you mentioned to get out. Roll frames are pretty bad as are spotdodge frames so I wouldn't use those terribly much(rolls sometimes). WD OOS is pretty good since Marth also distorts his hurtbox well when he WDs. The rest is learning how spacies like to pressure(do they prefer shine grabs or multiple reps or spacing their pressure?) and getting around/away from it.

 

[Kaoak]

Music is powerful but not always during playing. For example, I don't really get much out of music myself and prefer to hear the game sounds even if it means I'm more likely to be distracted by the crowd if they're booing me(when not focused). But, I might see some improvement in my analysis or discussion with another person when I have music on. So in this way music can still be powerful but not for playing. I also have a suspicion that it might take a strong connection to certain music to put people in a focused state and everyone might not have that OR it might be necessary for some people but not others. Just a thought!

I agree with listening to game sounds as well. I personally react to spacies side b by using the audio cue. Perhaps it'd be more useful to listen to during a tournament but between matches rather than mid-game?

Also, I tend to automatically use a lot of wavedashes during my movement but I'd like to know, what are you personally thinking when you wavedash in the neutral versus simply dash dancing? This sounds like a scrubby question, however I feel like lots of players who play by reverse engineering top players' play-styles do things without ever questioning the simple stuff. When I wavedash it's often to lengthen a dash or to put out a move that I can't put out from a dash (fsmash, ftilt, dtilt) or to approach / retreat while retaining access to my tilts, smash attacks and crouch cancel. Dash dance seems to be more immediately threatening than wavedashing however because it doesn't have like a 15 frame startup + the startup of whatever you plan on throwing out & wavedashing also has a small audio cue.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wavedash lets me shift my space to DD/approach/counterattack/threaten one of those. It also has a unique visual and audio cue. You can use these facts in a lot of ways, like approaching when they're used to attacks out of dash/run or you can WD and shorten the distance/start it farther away so you end up getting to observe out of it. The starting facts are the most important parts though.

 

[Jontho]

Hello!
So I recently picked up Marth and have a pretty solid understanding of how to combo spacies. However, I recently played against a Falcon where I quickly realised that upthrow doesn't lead to anything against him. So how does one combo him?

 

[Sutekh]

Hello!
So I recently picked up Marth and have a pretty solid understanding of how to combo spacies. However, I recently played against a Falcon where I quickly realised that upthrow doesn't lead to anything against him. So how does one combo him?

It absolutely does, you just have to wait a lot longer to become actionable because Falcon is so heavy. Kadano's post has a section talking specifically about Marth's upthrow followups against Falcon at certain percentages.

 

[AirFair]

Hello!
So I recently picked up Marth and have a pretty solid understanding of how to combo spacies. However, I recently played against a Falcon where I quickly realised that upthrow doesn't lead to anything against him. So how does one combo him?

if you are talking about uthrow followups, then you need this post by Kadano.
https://smashboards.com/threads/kad...data-application.337035/page-17#post-16635855
the good stuff essentially starts after 30%. You have a small window right as he is heading towards the ground to put a move out at those lower percents, but it gets easier after that.

 

[Sprenzy]

How do you actually practice juggle and ken combo with marth??
Do the top players know the exact knock back or each and every one of marth's aerials and up air with each percent and di? I just don't understand when to tipper fair, upair, uptilt or weak hit up or down. I don't really have anyone to practice with so I only have two controllers and the internet. I mean look at thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpSZuffsHA 3:41

I really want to be a top player but if I can't figure out this on my own then maybe I just can't be a top player

 

[Smash G 0 D]

How do you actually practice juggle and ken combo with marth??
Do the top players know the exact knock back or each and every one of marth's aerials and up air with each percent and di? I just don't understand when to tipper fair, upair, uptilt or weak hit up or down. I don't really have anyone to practice with so I only have two controllers and the internet. I mean look at thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpSZuffsHA 3:41

I really want to be a top player but if I can't figure out this on my own then maybe I just can't be a top player

It's really a 3-step process: practice, practice, and training (which some might call practice). Eventually you internalize hitboxes and start getting better at visualizing where people will end up after connecting hits. The human brain is really good at forecasting events if it is familiar with the parameters of a situation. Just keep practicing and you'll get better at anticipating where people will get hit. Do you have 20XX 4.05? If not, get it. Practice in that. Press Y-Dpad-Right and practice with hitbox bubbles on.

I certainly don't have %s memorized when comboing opponents, but I've played long enough that it becomes secondnature.

 

[Sprenzy]

It's really a 3-step process: practice, practice, and training (which some might call practice). Eventually you internalize hitboxes and start getting better at visualizing where people will end up after connecting hits. The human brain is really good at forecasting events if it is familiar with the parameters of a situation. Just keep practicing and you'll get better at anticipating where people will get hit. Do you have 20XX 4.05? If not, get it. Practice in that. Press Y-Dpad-Right and practice with hitbox bubbles on.

I certainly don't have %s memorized when comboing opponents, but I've played long enough that it becomes secondnature.

so instead of percents you know based on how far you knock the opponent?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

so instead of percents you know based on how far you knock the opponent?

Yeah you just need to know where your opponent will be after you hit them. This becomes trickier when you start playing against opponents with better SDI, but you'll get better at it over time. You'll start to get a sense of how far the opponent will get sent based on their % range.

 

[Dr Peepee]

so instead of percents you know based on how far you knock the opponent?

Yeah, but you can also work out general percent trees. There's nothing wrong with knowing what you want to do on Uthrow full DI away at 50%. Usually you can see patterns in your punish that need work like low percent CG problems with slight DI behind or the opponent landing on platforms at mid percents and holding down or holding away on your Fair at mid percents. There's a counter to all of that kind of stuff but you have to work it out, watch matches, and test and practice on your own to really understand it. I can help more with more specific questions.