Captain Falcon: The bad outweighs the good...

[K20AFoozbal]

Ok so after about 2 hours of playing 1v1 against lvl 9 computers that were destroying me... (when donkey kong 4stocks you in a 4stock match... it cuts you real deep...) i've come to several conclusions...

***** BTW before anyone is like "ZOMG THIS GUY PLAYED LVL 9s AND IS TELLING US THIS CF DOOD IS NERF'D!! LOL!" think about it.... aside from the computers being able to predict what you're going to do next, most human players are very similar to computers in that they're all about finding ways out of things, out smarting you, attempting to edgehog/guard, noticing patterns and punishing you for it... so while i'm sure i'd have had an easier time playing against my buddies, be aware that Brawl computer players got a serious upgrade in hardware... they're pretty viable practice now i'd say. not like melee where you couldnt practice cuz wave dashing vs a pc was asking to get you grabbed out of it lol... anyways i'm off topic... *****


Traction... with the near-removal of dash dancing falcon has a rough time going where you need him to go... even fox trotting doesnt help him that much and it got me punished by those lvl 9s quite a few times for being all over the map not able to do anything except hyphen smash across half of FD.

Speed... Yes he's fast... not as fast but dear god he doesnt need to be any faster... now that i have to wait a good 5 seconds to turn him around after running full speed i can take time to notice the finer things in life... like while i'm flying uncontrollably towards marth with my back to him attempting to run away, he has the time to fully charge an Fsmash and cream me with it... So yes... while he's fast he needs new sneakers or something..... cuz atm he's breakin my balls...

Grab... the range is like completely gone... i have to be all up on the guy to pick em up. if i'm not literally touching them... i'm too far away. this pissed me off to no end due to the fact that i am a big fan on the pivot-grab (which is hard enough to do on falcon due to his lack of traction...) which brings me to my next point...

Throws... Down is still the best... one hit on the ground and then they bounce in front of you... nice set up for a hyphen smash. others are only so so. hardly worth mentioning his throws since you'll hardly ever get to grab someone... gotta be super close...

Jab... So much knock back was stolen from his other moves it must have all congregated right here.... once you get the third hit out, they're mostly too far away for you to hit... then you gotta wait 30 seconds for good ol' CF to stop punching that dust cloud where the guy used to be... A little let down... but still nice if they're between you and a wall i suppose.

Utilt... honestly, it impressed me. It hits quite a bit harder that i expected and makes for a nice knockback. sends your opponent to the side, instead of up. A+

Dtilt... it's ok... but not enough push back to make it worth doing very often and it's certainly not a spike...

Ftilt... Nintendo? If you're out there? Will you please please please make this CF's Fsmash model? That's be super sweet. Thx.

DashA... this move still holds strong. Proves to be a nice opener and with fox trotting makes life easy for getting that first combo up and running. hard to stop however.

Fsmash... i had pretty much the same issue with this as i did with the grab... if i wasnt literally touching someone i couldnt hit them... the issue is transfered from melee, although since everyone now has the grab range of marth and falcon got **** on with range it seems a whole hell of a lot worse now....

Usmash... Hard hitting as always. They still didnt fix the fact that it doesnt hit people behind you... great for hyphen smashing. great for starting a combo. bad against ppl who like to roll... meh, still a powerhouse move. so good stuff there.

Dsmash... I was never impressed with this... but it seems like they've slowed this move down a tad. either that or the computers are able to ground-dodge for like 3 seconds and i'm unable to... hit hard. but that's only IF it hits...

NeutB... The Falcon Punch™ will always hold a place in my heart... ahhh the good times where i would fly in out of left field and kill my 3 buddies at once... cuz i was a bad ***... well it still hits hard and it's still slow as balls... the fact that you can change directions at the very beginning isnt what i'd call a major upgrade... but i guess it's nice and all that...

SideB... the cool little whoosing noise they added to it still doesnt help this move do anything more than get you in trouble. idk how many times marth grabbed me out of it... or rolled backwards in time to watch me fall, chuckle as i slowly get up of the ground and then grab me... it worked right possibly 5/35 times... the other times i either got grabbed out, lost the priority battle or the rolled away and lol'd at me from a distance.

DownB... Falcon Kick.... low priority. Low dmg. Low... other stuff.... still bad. Yea, the pc's grabbed me out of this one time too... i cried a bit...

UpB... this was a nice change. one of the nicer additions i think. has a lot more distance in it now, much more horizontal leap and if you hit a ledge mid thrust it stops and you grab the ledge! no more missing the sweet spot! huzzah! no compaints about this move. still an awesome move. still hits really hard. still fun to do to little children. "Hey kids, wanna see what i've got in my pocket?"

Nair... this was one of the key moves to CF's air game in melee... while it's still one of his better moves it also got nerfed... no pushback to your opponent (if they shield) means one of two things... A) they shield-grab you and you're like "WTF IS JUICE?!" or B) they shield and punish you for being a noob. It is however one of his better moves.

Uair... Kind of reminds me of SSB64 tbh... it's strong again. one of his better moves. if the lvl 9s didnt dodge **** near all of em i'd have more to go on... but for now i see it like meta knights Uair... good for chaining. You can use 2-4 before hitting the ground if you're good at it.

Dair... Doesnt have the same "umph" it had in the other SSBs... while it's still a great meteor and second to none in off-side meteor killing, CFs bad mobility doesnt make using it very easy. Since his moves dont push back shielded enemies, this is yet another move that leaves you very vulnerable due to the lack of L-canceling...

Fair... The knee... dear god they destroyed it... i should've gotten at least 50 more KOs that didnt happen because all my knee did was go "thud" and knock em back like 10 yds even tho they were at 150%... of course you can still get it to work properly but it's like you have to be flying at just the right altitude with them about to pick their nose whilst reading a copy of reader's digest and chewing on taffy... i.e. it doesnt happen often... predicting the DI is still easymode tho...

Bair... >.> dont tell anyone ok? i think this about replaces the knee... SHHH... they'll hear you... This thing hits hard. All the time. great for edge guarding. great for SH-Bair. RAR would be great but dammit i have enough trouble getting him to run a different direction... Powerful? Yes. Practical? kinda... i'm sure i would've gotten more opportunities to use it vs a human player but still....


so.... to sum everything up...

PROS
- New UpB is very nice
- Bair hits hard all the time
- Ftilt has very good range
- Still fast as hell
- Still has a good air game

CONS
- Slippery when wet...
- Lack of good KO move that isnt a smash
- Fail knee is fail
- Lack of pushback vs shielded targets (i.e. they remain right next to you when you land)
- Low priority on just about everything but the Nair (even his Fsmash bounced of an opponents Filt... T_T)
- No grab/Fsmash range
- Still lacks any kind of projectile whatsoever
- Lack of L-cancelling leaves him open for lots of nasty punishing


So... after my long *ss descriptions of almost every move and every technique he has at his disposal... and as much as i love the big guy i dont think i can do it... it's a shame but i think i'm just gonna have to let him go.... I'll keep playing around on him because he's CF man... you just main CF one game and completely abandon him the next!! but i think i'll be competing with someone else... unless i can buy you some new sneakers... take it easy pal.

-K20


EDIT - The lvl 9 comp players sort of taught me something... how crucial air dodging and ground dodging is going to be for competitive play. with no way to wave dash to get out of range, rolling repeatedly getting you in trouble and running away on your own steam being difficult at times... the dodging thing will become a very very useful tool. i suggest we all learn to use this to the best of our abilities becuase if it saved these lvl 9's from certain destruction (idk how many times -_-) PLUS set them up to combo me after an attack i used should have pushed them back far enough... i'd say it's pretty much going to own face.

Add learning how to dodge effectively to your to-do list. you'll thank me later lol.

 

[talkingbeatles]

I haven't had much trouble with the lvl 9s. But that's just me.
Everyone is going on about how terrible Falcon is now... but I think I'm doing pretty well with him. Do the people I play against just really suck?

 

[IWuvGeno]

I haven't had much trouble with the lvl 9s. But that's just me.
Everyone is going on about how terrible Falcon is now... but I think I'm doing pretty well with him. Do the people I play against just really suck?

Pretty much. I've been playing a lot of C.Falcon, and I have his technical game pretty tight now.
The simple fact of the matter is: Falcon has a lot of horrible matchups now because of priority and also because his approach game is very weak.

Less than 40% W/L Matchups I've had off the top of my head:

Olimar - Need to really practice ledge hogging / ledge guarding this guy
Sonic
Marth
MK ***** WOW!
Toon Link
Zamus
Pit** <-- I almost forgot!

TO OP:
But I am getting better. Make sure you have his no lag fair and dair down (very hard especially with input lag). Falcon kick is almost your only choice to win priority on the ground game in certain matchups (Olimar, Sonic....down b is not low priority - not the highest though). Foxtrot + Dash Dance into side B is a very good setup.... but highly punishable. It will work a lot of the time though, trust me, it's a great tool. I still haven't landed too many Reverse Falcon Punches.... where's those videos? Some people say they have luck with it. I haven't seen too many videos other than the Nicos possibly where the Falcon is distinctly better than me. I am getting very close to that level though. Still lots of loses against these characters and definitely others that I'm probably not thinking of.

EDIT: Oh also... If you can flubb a knee off the ledge it's practically a guaranteed setup for another knee. They basically have to be in a position where air dodging will cost them a lot. Can KO at very low %.

 

[IWuvGeno]

Add learning how to dodge effectively to your to-do list. you'll thank me later lol.

Unless you like getting tossed into high heaven! Very good point. I need to move practicing my spot dodging to the top of my list.

 

[Runeblade279]

"still doesn't help this move get you anything more than into trouble"

Raptor Boost was a beast approach in Melee when you set up for it or used it when they didn't expect. It's the same way now, only it's not really possible to combo so well out of it.

And to: IWuvGeno

Yeah, those are his bad matchups, honestly I hate pit more than MK, that uair is ****ing annoying.

Foxtrot into side-b.. haven't tried that. I'll test it out later today. And I've found the reverse falcon punches to be great, but only as an unexpected maneuver, it's faster than it used to be, you can often catch people with it, comps usually dodge though.

 

[cobaltblue]

Just to add, the f-tilt was his smash in 64 but we lost that to the nerf bat.

 

[Mikezor]

I actually think Falcon is fine in Brawl. It seems you do not enjoy him very much so why not switch?

 

[K20AFoozbal]

Done the double knee off the side thing, that's not a problem. it's waiting for the knee to proc that's killing me... it seems like there's no certain way to get the knee to go off every time.

and guys... dont get me wrong, the raptor boost is a pretty good move. but it's so easy to counter. the fact that they can either spot dodge you, grab you out of it, or do anything but stand there makes it easily punishable... foxtrot to DD to SideB is nice for a change up, from there you're good to use an air move and that could get you somewhere... but getting the SideB off in the first place is the trouble.

as for the falcon kick... i konw it's not the lowest priority. i didnt say lowest lol. but it's still not great. while i'm sure it'll be easier to catch a human off guard than it is a PC, it still saddened me a bit that i could hardly hit any of them... but it seems like when you do get a FC off you're way far past them by the time they recover lol. i guess that's all working on range and figuring it out... i've got to play against my friends more... pc's piss me off...

i'm talking about real players here. people who can see this coming and find easy means around it, since it's so easy to get around. While he's not terrible and while, yes it's a different game... he's not putting forth enough of a good argument for me. Like i said, i'll keep playing him and see if i can get more used to it... but optimism is few and far between...

(also, this is so disheartening for me because i have no problem beating 2-3 lvl 9s alone on Ike, pikachu or wolf... yet i get 4 stocked on CF... 1v1... i'm not bad at the game although i do need to improve... but he's serieously letting me down in brawl... =/)



EDIT -- Cobalt... yes i know lol... and it saddens me still to this day...

and you just dont stop playing CF on whim.. what are you crazy?! don't say that so loud... he'll hear you... seriously tho... i'm trying to find good in him. this is just a report on my findings so far.

 

[jwj442]

Do you know about stutter stepping to increase his fsmash range? Smash the control stick backwards like you're starting a dash, then c-stick right. It gives him a notable range increase. I hear you can get an even bigger increase by starting a dash, pivoting it, and then c-sticking, but I'm not sure exactly how that version works.

 

[KeyKid19]

I applaud your thorough post of Falcon impressions and I enjoyed reading it. However I think you are mistaken about a few things. I'm just going off of what I've seen while playing Falcon against both level 9 computers as well as real players. Falcon is indeed not the same beast as he was in Melee, but I truly and sincerely believe that he still has a lot of untapped potential. I hope that you read my comments and know that while I tend to disagree with you, I still respect your opinion and appreciate the time you took to jot your thoughts down. I hope that if we get going back and forth after this that we can remain civil. Thanks for your time and I hope to see more posts like this one in the future.

In case anyone is unaware, the bolded text is my response to his unbolded original post.

Ok so after about 2 hours of playing 1v1 against lvl 9 computers that were destroying me... (when donkey kong 4stocks you in a 4stock match... it cuts you real deep...) i've come to several conclusions...

I've never lost to a level 9 or human DK with Falcon. DK is the worst character in Brawl, hands down. If you can't beat him you are using Falcon incorrectly.

***** BTW before anyone is like "ZOMG THIS GUY PLAYED LVL 9s AND IS TELLING US THIS CF DOOD IS NERF'D!! LOL!" think about it.... aside from the computers being able to predict what you're going to do next, most human players are very similar to computers in that they're all about finding ways out of things, out smarting you, attempting to edgehog/guard, noticing patterns and punishing you for it... <b>so while i'm sure i'd have had an easier time playing against my buddies,</b> be aware that Brawl computer players got a serious upgrade in hardware... they're pretty viable practice now i'd say. not like melee where you couldnt practice cuz wave dashing vs a pc was asking to get you grabbed out of it lol... anyways i'm off topic... *****

Computers are still bad. One week into Brawl, I win 95% of my CPU level 9 matches as Falcon. They are definitely better I'll give you that, but to say that they are HARDER than your friends is a real diss on your friends. Computers do the same actions over and over, never dodge like a real player, and get edgeguarded so easily it's unreal.

Traction... with the near-removal of dash dancing falcon has a rough time going where you need him to go... even fox trotting doesnt help him that much and it got me punished by those lvl 9s quite a few times for being all over the map not able to do anything except hyphen smash across half of FD.

Falcon runs faster than everyone except Sonic. You can outrun your opponent to gain space and then approach at will! They can't dash-dance either so there's no real disadvantage. However I will admit that ground movement as a whole in Brawl is much more difficult than in Melee. That affects all characters though, not just Falcon. If you're getting punished by level 9s while using him, chances are you'll get punished no matter who you use.

Speed... Yes he's fast... not as fast but dear god he doesnt need to be any faster... now that i have to wait a good 5 seconds to turn him around after running full speed i can take time to notice the finer things in life... like while i'm flying uncontrollably towards marth with my back to him attempting to run away, he has the time to fully charge an Fsmash and cream me with it... So yes... while he's fast he needs new sneakers or something..... cuz atm he's breakin my balls...

Maneuverability took at hit in Brawl for everyone. Falcon does seem to endure a large brunt of it due to his playstyle, but you could just you know.... spot dodge? Or maybe even roll?

Grab... the range is like completely gone... i have to be all up on the guy to pick em up. if i'm not literally touching them... i'm too far away. this pissed me off to no end due to the fact that i am a big fan on the pivot-grab (which is hard enough to do on falcon due to his lack of traction...) which brings me to my next point...

I found Falcon's grabbing pretty easy to get a handle on actually. With the new slidyness, you can start your grab animation before you actually reach the opponent and still get them because you'll slide into them. Even if they roll backwards you still have a good chance of catching up to them and succeeding. Shield grab lag is also much lower in Brawl, so if they spot dodge it you are already shielding again before they can attack.

Throws... Down is still the best... one hit on the ground and then they bounce in front of you... nice set up for a hyphen smash. others are only so so. hardly worth mentioning his throws since you'll hardly ever get to grab someone... gotta be super close...

Down throw is good. However I also find myself using the up and forward throws as well. Falcon is fast enough to catch up to a forward thrown opponent and the up throw leads perfectly into a chase -> uAir -> possible Falcon Dive (Falcon Dive depends on damage but at certain percents opponents go right into it so you won't miss and get owned upon landing lag).

Jab... So much knock back was stolen from his other moves it must have all congregated right here.... once you get the third hit out, they're mostly too far away for you to hit... then you gotta wait 30 seconds for good ol' CF to stop punching that dust cloud where the guy used to be... A little let down... but still nice if they're between you and a wall i suppose.

Are you kidding? The gentleman has almost no knockback now so the fists of fury actually work in Brawl (unlike Melee where the fists of fury were WORTHLESS). Granted you have to be close or else your succeptible to being punished but it still is MUCH improved over the Melee version in my opinion.

Utilt... honestly, it impressed me. It hits quite a bit harder that i expected and makes for a nice knockback. sends your opponent to the side, instead of up. A+

This move is good.... if you can pull it off. Usually when I try it I end up doing an UpSmash. You have to either be holding up while standing and wait for the opponent to get in range, or else move up REALLY slowly to not get the Up Smash. Hardest tilt to use in my opinion.

Dtilt... it's ok... but not enough push back to make it worth doing very often and it's certainly not a spike...

This move would be much better if Falcon actually got down on the ground when he crouched. His little squat hardly lowers his frame so the opportunity to use it after dodging a high attack is minimal. Kind of quick though so I guess it's ok. I would never use it as a spike anyways so it not being one doesn't bother me. You have to many invincibility frames when edgegrabbing that there's no real window to use it on edgegrabbers anyways.

Ftilt... Nintendo? If you're out there? Will you please please please make this CF's Fsmash model? That's be super sweet. Thx.

This is a good attack. Easy to use, good range, and good knockback.

DashA... this move still holds strong. Proves to be a nice opener and with fox trotting makes life easy for getting that first combo up and running. hard to stop however.

I really like this move as well. Has nice priority and range of knockback. At low percents it's a nice combo starter and at high percents it's practically a killing move.

Fsmash... i had pretty much the same issue with this as i did with the grab... if i wasnt literally touching someone i couldnt hit them... the issue is transfered from melee, although since everyone now has the grab range of marth and falcon got **** on with range it seems a whole hell of a lot worse now....

My issue with this move is not so much the range (although it is lacking) but the startup lag. Your opponent really has to screw up in order to get hit by it. Has some use but not as much as a fSmash should.

Usmash... Hard hitting as always. They still didnt fix the fact that it doesnt hit people behind you... great for hyphen smashing. great for starting a combo. bad against ppl who like to roll... meh, still a powerhouse move. so good stuff there.

It has nice range thanks to the sliding but I find it hard to hit with when my opponent is just the wrong distance from me. If they are just out of the move's range, you miss, and if you try to dash up to them and use it you slide past them. I just started working on the slide-cancel version of it yesterday so I'm not sure how useful it will be once I get that down, but right now it's hard to hit with so its relative quick release and great power are useless.

Dsmash... I was never impressed with this... but it seems like they've slowed this move down a tad. either that or the computers are able to ground-dodge for like 3 seconds and i'm unable to... hit hard. but that's only IF it hits...

This move is GREAT against rollers. Spot dodgers can mess you up if you use it haphazardly, but rollers will get punished by it. Good reach, great power, great priority, and the non-simultaneous direction hits mess people up. Also has the potential to do a double hit but I'm not sure what the situation needs to be like yet. I've seen him do it sometimes though so once I learn how to do the double hit it will be an even better move.

NeutB... The Falcon Punch™ will always hold a place in my heart... ahhh the good times where i would fly in out of left field and kill my 3 buddies at once... cuz i was a bad ***... well it still hits hard and it's still slow as balls... the fact that you can change directions at the very beginning isnt what i'd call a major upgrade... but i guess it's nice and all that...

This move still holds its own. People freak out when they hear it and tend to disjoint their entire mindset over avioding it. The reverse punch is great against rollers because you can shorthop reverse it and they will roll behind you and get punished. Other than that the reverse isn't that great but the move is good. I actually get quite a few 1v1 kills with it but it can only be used in specific opportunities.

SideB... the cool little whoosing noise they added to it still doesnt help this move do anything more than get you in trouble. idk how many times marth grabbed me out of it... or rolled backwards in time to watch me fall, chuckle as i slowly get up of the ground and then grab me... it worked right possibly 5/35 times... the other times i either got grabbed out, lost the priority battle or the rolled away and lol'd at me from a distance.

Raptor Boost is not a long range move so don't try to use it as one! If you use it in close combat, you'll do one of three things. You'll go through a spot dodger and far enough away to get out of their smash range. You'll hit a retreat roller because the move has about the same speed as a back roll and since you're close you won't fall before reaching them. You'll hit an approaching opponent because they aren't ready to use their running A attack yet. So if you use it in close combat, it WILL work. Also this move is GREAT in the air. Edgeguarders get spiked to their deaths (a better spike than dAir now in my opinion) and you pass over them to safety now instead of stopping and falling to your death. This move also has short hop potential. Priority is less on the air version but if used creatively it can be a beast.

DownB... Falcon Kick.... low priority. Low dmg. Low... other stuff.... still bad. Yea, the pc's grabbed me out of this one time too... i cried a bit...

Real players won't react quick enough to grab you if you're using this move (especially if they're approaching). Has enough range to pass through/behind shielders and gets very far behind spot dodgers. I use this move more in the air actually because its priority is good against non-blade users and its delay throws off the intercept timing of air appraochers and ground campers.

UpB... this was a nice change. one of the nicer additions i think. has a lot more distance in it now, much more horizontal leap and if you hit a ledge mid thrust it stops and you grab the ledge! no more missing the sweet spot! huzzah! no compaints about this move. still an awesome move. still hits really hard. still fun to do to little children. "Hey kids, wanna see what i've got in my pocket?"

This move is great now. Also the latch-on aspect of it really crushes people who are used to just edgehogging without invincibility frames in effect because they think Falcon will just slide off. You wouldn't believe how many kills I've gotten from level smashing edgehoggers. Unfortunately as people begin to realize this new feature they will guard against it, but right now it's a beautiful sight to see.

Nair... this was one of the key moves to CF's air game in melee... while it's still one of his better moves it also got nerfed... no pushback to your opponent (if they shield) means one of two things... A) they shield-grab you and you're like "WTF IS JUICE?!" or B) they shield and punish you for being a noob. It is however one of his better moves.

The lack of shield knockback is unfortunate. I think that the new timing due to the floatyness of Brawl hurts it more though because you have to wait so long just hanging in the air waiting to be punished before you can use it or else you'll just miss above their heads.

Uair... Kind of reminds me of SSB64 tbh... it's strong again. one of his better moves. if the lvl 9s didnt dodge **** near all of em i'd have more to go on... but for now i see it like meta knights Uair... good for chaining. You can use 2-4 before hitting the ground if you're good at it.

Great move for edgeguarding because it lasts so long and hits at all angles. Easier to dodge when coming in from above, but the up reach of it usually will allow you to hit them before they think they need to air dodge. Lots of kills with this one.

Dair... Doesnt have the same "umph" it had in the other SSBs... while it's still a great meteor and second to none in off-side meteor killing, CFs bad mobility doesnt make using it very easy. Since his moves dont push back shielded enemies, this is yet another move that leaves you very vulnerable due to the lack of L-canceling...

This move still has short hop utility if you do it right. As soon as you jump hit the C-Stick down and you'll land without any lag. Sadly you're right about the lack of shield knockback hurting it, but if you do the lagless one you can shield upon landing or spot dodge before they can unshield (unless they powershield it). As for its spiking I feel that it sucks now. The hitbox is much smaller and the timing is harder, so your chance of actually connecting with it is low. Given that his uAir and bAir are almost as good at killing and MUCH easier to hit with, I don't see much use for this move in edgeguarding anymore. Maybe with more practice I will get good enough with it that it will become relevant again, but right now I find it useless for edgeguarding.

Fair... The knee... dear god they destroyed it... i should've gotten at least 50 more KOs that didnt happen because all my knee did was go "thud" and knock em back like 10 yds even tho they were at 150%... of course you can still get it to work properly but it's like you have to be flying at just the right altitude with them about to pick their nose whilst reading a copy of reader's digest and chewing on taffy... i.e. it doesnt happen often... predicting the DI is still easymode tho...

This move did get hosed unfortunately. If it was as easy to hit with as in Melee no one would be ripping on Falcon around here because he's not the complete ownage package without it. If he did have it he would be a killing machine and would be 10x better. But sadly we are left with the new knee (uncaps for a reason). Luckily the knee still has the power of The Knee when sweetspotted, but it gimps so much that it's not a dependable kill when you need it. The gimp is ok because it lasts a while and has pretty decent priority, but overall this move lost its legendary status thanks to Brawl. Maybe if we all write to Sakurai he'll bring back its glory in SSB4. lol

Bair... >.> dont tell anyone ok? i think this about replaces the knee... SHHH... they'll hear you... This thing hits hard. All the time. great for edge guarding. great for SH-Bair. RAR would be great but dammit i have enough trouble getting him to run a different direction... Powerful? Yes. Practical? kinda... i'm sure i would've gotten more opportunities to use it vs a human player but still....

Indeed, a great move. Still working on RAR-ing it but man it's a great move. Lasts a long time and has good priority. It still saddens me that I jump off while facing backwards to edgeguard with it instead of forwards to Knee some fools like back in the day, but it is a good move nonetheless.


so.... to sum everything up...

PROS
- New UpB is very nice
- Bair hits hard all the time
- Ftilt has very good range
- Still fast as hell
- Still has a good air game

CONS
- Slippery when wet...
- Lack of good KO move that isnt a smash (All aerials and uTilt are kill moves)
- Fail knee is fail (indeed sadly )
- Lack of pushback vs shielded targets (this is probably his worst flaw)
- Low priority on just about everything but the Nair (even his Fsmash bounced of an opponents Filt... T_T) (lots of moves on every character have this same problem)
- No grab/Fsmash range (I disagree with both. fSmash can be extended with backdash to C-stick)
- Still lacks any kind of projectile whatsoever (Unfortunatly his other nerfs enhance this problem)
- Lack of L-cancelling leaves him open for lots of nasty punishing (Auto L-Cancel and proper technique solves this problem in most circumstances)


So... after my long *ss descriptions of almost every move and every technique he has at his disposal... and as much as i love the big guy i dont think i can do it... it's a shame but i think i'm just gonna have to let him go.... I'll keep playing around on him because he's CF man... you just main CF one game and completely abandon him the next!! but i think i'll be competing with someone else... unless i can buy you some new sneakers... take it easy pal.

-K20


EDIT - The lvl 9 comp players sort of taught me something... how crucial air dodging and ground dodging is going to be for competitive play. with no way to wave dash to get out of range, rolling repeatedly getting you in trouble and running away on your own steam being difficult at times... the dodging thing will become a very very useful tool. i suggest we all learn to use this to the best of our abilities becuase if it saved these lvl 9's from certain destruction (idk how many times -_-) PLUS set them up to combo me after an attack i used should have pushed them back far enough... i'd say it's pretty much going to own face.

Add learning how to dodge effectively to your to-do list. you'll thank me later lol.

Indeed, spot dodging and air dodging are the ways of the future. See you've already realized that there is a critical part of Brawl's gameplay that you seem to have not touched while playing Falcon. He has the potential I am telling you but you aren't going to see it after a week of the game being out! Everything changes with time. Look at Ike. A lot of people thought he was great when they played him at launch, but now they are realizing that he is way too slow to do anything against good players. Falcon will never be top tier in Brawl in my opinion but he has a lot of good things about him and a lot of fixable flaws (though there are still a fair amount that seem unfixable). Give him time, work on your game, and get back to us in a year or so.

Also one last thing I wanted to mention that you didn't address here was his weight. Falcon is incredibly hard to kill in comparison with other characters. He goes well past 160% before dying usually while others get killed at anywhere from 80% to 120% (besides the true heavyweights like Bowser, Snake, DeDeDe, etc.). The point is, Falcon has the speed of Sheik and the weight of Snake without his backpack on. Also his moves' knockbacks increase more than many other characters' as the victim's damage goes up. This is one of the best aspects of Falcon that no one ever seems to mention and it really plays a big role in matches.

 

[KeyKid19]

Pretty much. I've been playing a lot of C.Falcon, and I have his technical game pretty tight now.
The simple fact of the matter is: Falcon has a lot of horrible matchups now because of priority and also because his approach game is very weak.

Less than 40% W/L Matchups I've had off the top of my head:

Olimar - Need to really practice ledge hogging / ledge guarding this guy
Sonic
Marth
MK ***** WOW!
Toon Link
Zamus
Pit** <-- I almost forgot!

TO OP:
But I am getting better. Make sure you have his no lag fair and dair down (very hard especially with input lag). Falcon kick is almost your only choice to win priority on the ground game in certain matchups (Olimar, Sonic....down b is not low priority - not the highest though). Foxtrot + Dash Dance into side B is a very good setup.... but highly punishable. It will work a lot of the time though, trust me, it's a great tool. I still haven't landed too many Reverse Falcon Punches.... where's those videos? Some people say they have luck with it. I haven't seen too many videos other than the Nicos possibly where the Falcon is distinctly better than me. I am getting very close to that level though. Still lots of loses against these characters and definitely others that I'm probably not thinking of.

EDIT: Oh also... If you can flubb a knee off the ledge it's practically a guaranteed setup for another knee. They basically have to be in a position where air dodging will cost them a lot. Can KO at very low %.

Metaknight, Olimar, and Marth are bad matchups. I agree that Falcon does not fare well against them (Olimar and Meta especially). I really don't know what to do against Olimar and Meta to be honest. Meta can be baited to an extent but his moves are so fast and have such monster priority (especially Neutral B! Holy cow!) that it's very tough to defend against him. Luckily he's very light so you only need to land a few hits on him to get him in kill range. This combined with his lack of kill moves against the weighty Falcon lets you have a lot of time to wait for him to slip up. If he doesn't ever slip up though you're toast.

Olimar.... just WTF. I have played one Olimar user and they ***** me (as you saw in my other thread). His grab is ridiculous and his range is enormous. You literally can't get near him without getting punished. If anyone is a counter to Falcon, I believe Olimar is it. Maybe with some combined creative minds we can whip up some strategies against him but right now I'm stumped. I really want one of my friends to pick him up though so I can get experience against him. There has to be SOMETHING. I don't know what it is yet, but he can't be THAT unstoppable.

Pit falls into the laser category of characters (all of which Falcon fairs poorly against). Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Pit all can spam their arrows/lasers and there's enough knockback that you can get stuck in them very easily. I'm not sure if this is just a Falcon problem or an everyone problem but it indeed is a problem. If Falcon had even ONE projectile he would be so much better but he doesn't so we have to get creative.

Geno, I would like to hear some more in-depth impressions on Falcon from you. Clearly we don't see eye-to-eye on Falcon's ability (me being the eternal optimist and you the pessimist/realist), but I think we can find some middle ground. What strategies do you use against these problematic characters? You might think I'm a blundering fool but I respect you and I am open to hearing any impressions/advice you have.

 

[IWuvGeno]

Olimar.... just WTF. I have played one Olimar user and they ***** me (as you saw in my other thread). His grab is ridiculous and his range is enormous. You literally can't get near him without getting punished. If anyone is a counter to Falcon, I believe Olimar is it. Maybe with some combined creative minds we can whip up some strategies against him but right now I'm stumped. I really want one of my friends to pick him up though so I can get experience against him. There has to be SOMETHING. I don't know what it is yet, but he can't be THAT unstoppable.

Yeah Olimar simply mystifies me. Before I start formulating too many strategies, I'm going to play as Olimar for a bit. He's still one of those characters that I've played against 10 or so times, but his moves still have me scratching my head.

Just off the top of my head though, he can stop my side B's in their tracks with his Pikmin (if only it still had dodge frames..). So, your ground options are very sparse. His tether grab and projectile Pikmin can punish you hard for approaching. The only one thing that's great about this character is ledge guarding him and also hogging him on the ledge. An occasional falcon kick works pretty well...

Practice will tell if there are any options.

 

[K20AFoozbal]

Bold is your text, i'll write comments in non-bold lol

I've never lost to a level 9 or human DK with Falcon. DK is the worst character in Brawl, hands down. If you can't beat him you are using Falcon incorrectly.

Saying i'm using falcon incorrectly is a bit over the top... A computer plays so much differently than any human. It takes the meta game to a whole new level because it can do ANYTHING that the game was designed to do. grabbing me out of a falcon kick? let me see a human do that... I was getting really pissed man, you have no idea... playing competitive melee then getting beat out by a lvl 9... this just isnt anything like playing a human player

Granted, some of the stuff i was doing on purpose to watch what they'd do but aside from that it got really bad sometimes... i'll dashA, they'll spot dodge, turn around and grab me. From there it's two smacks, me getting thrown forward. he dashes up before i get time to recover and SideB's me into the ground. It ends with me getting charge-smashed either up or sideways. from the edge i'd get knocked out of everything. if i came up to attack it was a shield + grab combo. if i rolled, so did they and grabbed me when i came up. The only thing that worked consistently was drop down -> UpB and get them there... it's pretty ridiculous

Computers are still bad. One week into Brawl, I win 95% of my CPU level 9 matches as Falcon. They are definitely better I'll give you that, but to say that they are HARDER than your friends is a real diss on your friends. Computers do the same actions over and over, never dodge like a real player, and get edgeguarded so easily it's unreal.

Edgeguarding was the only way i could repeatedly kill them successfully. These computers were recognizing what i was doing the second i gave the controller command and reacted based on what would gain them the win. And as far as dodging like a real player, it was better. i havent seen anyone in any brawl video dodge that effectively

Falcon runs faster than everyone except Sonic. You can outrun your opponent to gain space and then approach at will! They can't dash-dance either so there's no real disadvantage. However I will admit that ground movement as a whole in Brawl is much more difficult than in Melee. That affects all characters though, not just Falcon. If you're getting punished by level 9s while using him, chances are you'll get punished no matter who you use.

Ok, so my marth-punish story was a little over the top... if you couldnt tell i like to exaggerate things a bit... but seriously now, the sliding around is just ridiculous. Obviously it's something i need to get more aquainted with... so with more practice we'll see... i've had a rather busy two weeks...

Maneuverability took at hit in Brawl for everyone. Falcon does seem to endure a large brunt of it due to his playstyle, but you could just you know.... spot dodge? Or maybe even roll?

Rolling and dodging is how you have to survive in this game... but like i said, it's like the computer knew what i was doing the second i gave the command... leaving me frustrated and such

I found Falcon's grabbing pretty easy to get a handle on actually. With the new slidyness, you can start your grab animation before you actually reach the opponent and still get them because you'll slide into them. Even if they roll backwards you still have a good chance of catching up to them and succeeding. Shield grab lag is also much lower in Brawl, so if they spot dodge it you are already shielding again before they can attack.

Yes, i understand the physics of how to make the dash-grab and even the pivot grab work. i did both successfully in my trials but the range proved to be wayyyyyyy too short to be really precise with. you have very very little room to be inaccurate and if you're off by a little bit then you'll like get punished for it.

Down throw is good. However I also find myself using the up and forward throws as well. Falcon is fast enough to catch up to a forward thrown opponent and the up throw leads perfectly into a chase -> uAir -> possible Falcon Dive (Falcon Dive depends on damage but at certain percents opponents go right into it so you won't miss and get owned upon landing lag).

Well sure, these will all work with human players where you can judge their tragectory and predict a dodge. Down throw -> DashA -> UpB got me a few clean kills however, so i'm not complaining there.

Are you kidding? The gentleman has almost no knockback now so the fists of fury actually work in Brawl (unlike Melee where the fists of fury were WORTHLESS). Granted you have to be close or else your succeptible to being punished but it still is MUCH improved over the Melee version in my opinion.

look i never said it was bad lol... just it's still rather time consuming to stop it and not worth the 4% it gives you... that's my opinion however

This move is good.... if you can pull it off. Usually when I try it I end up doing an UpSmash. You have to either be holding up while standing and wait for the opponent to get in range, or else move up REALLY slowly to not get the Up Smash. Hardest tilt to use in my opinion.

yea, definately difficult to pull off... not just on falcon it seems. i have trouble on most characters i play. guess i've got to practice more lol

This move would be much better if Falcon actually got down on the ground when he crouched. His little squat hardly lowers his frame so the opportunity to use it after dodging a high attack is minimal. Kind of quick though so I guess it's ok. I would never use it as a spike anyways so it not being one doesn't bother me. You have to many invincibility frames when edgegrabbing that there's no real window to use it on edgegrabbers anyways.

can he please please please crouch for me? it's annoying that him crouching... doesnt actually get him to crouch.... but yea, i was just thinking of the utility of ike's Dtilt which is a very rangey spike. i guess the comparison got me tied up here lol...

This is a good attack. Easy to use, good range, and good knockback.

True story

I really like this move as well. Has nice priority and range of knockback. At low percents it's a nice combo starter and at high percents it's practically a killing move.

My issue with this move is not so much the range (although it is lacking) but the startup lag. Your opponent really has to screw up in order to get hit by it. Has some use but not as much as a fSmash should.

i never had much issues with it them being vulnerable to get hit by it, as much as them just not getting hit by it... the range just really pissed me off. lag isnt really an issue because if you're using this at any time other than the right moment where it wont fail, you deserve to be punished for that.

It has nice range thanks to the sliding but I find it hard to hit with when my opponent is just the wrong distance from me. If they are just out of the move's range, you miss, and if you try to dash up to them and use it you slide past them. I just started working on the slide-cancel version of it yesterday so I'm not sure how useful it will be once I get that down, but right now it's hard to hit with so its relative quick release and great power are useless.

i never had any issues with it connecting while dashing... more the standing still but not realizing i was facing the wrong direction lol... yea i was tired too...

This move is GREAT against rollers. Spot dodgers can mess you up if you use it haphazardly, but rollers will get punished by it. Good reach, great power, great priority, and the non-simultaneous direction hits mess people up. Also has the potential to do a double hit but I'm not sure what the situation needs to be like yet. I've seen him do it sometimes though so once I learn how to do the double hit it will be an even better move.

Great against rollers who roll through you... whihle it hits hard and does have great priority it's range is small as well... plus the fact that you cant cstick it while crouching gives me a headache (i was a chronic CCer in melee lol... it got me in trouble sometimes haha)

As far as the double hit, you just gotta be all up on top of them... it's really situational and i wouldnt expect to have it happen on purpose much... too precise to place with the ****** traction issues going around

This move still holds its own. People freak out when they hear it and tend to disjoint their entire mindset over avioding it. The reverse punch is great against rollers because you can shorthop reverse it and they will roll behind you and get punished. Other than that the reverse isn't that great but the move is good. I actually get quite a few 1v1 kills with it but it can only be used in specific opportunities.

yea, pretty much what i said lol... just in more detail heh

Raptor Boost is not a long range move so don't try to use it as one! If you use it in close combat, you'll do one of three things. You'll go through a spot dodger and far enough away to get out of their smash range. You'll hit a retreat roller because the move has about the same speed as a back roll and since you're close you won't fall before reaching them. You'll hit an approaching opponent because they aren't ready to use their running A attack yet. So if you use it in close combat, it WILL work. Also this move is GREAT in the air. Edgeguarders get spiked to their deaths (a better spike than dAir now in my opinion) and you pass over them to safety now instead of stopping and falling to your death. This move also has short hop potential. Priority is less on the air version but if used creatively it can be a beast.

lol trust me, i know it's not a long range move... my info clearly stated that... the fact that if i'm not right next to the guy that he can roll out of range is ridiculous... yet again, this is against computers and not real players... so i guess individual results may vary lol....

As for the spiking potential i havent tested that out yet... i know that it works well in the air but i hadnt counted on the spike factor... so yea, i'll have to test that out and get back to you on it lol

Real players won't react quick enough to grab you if you're using this move (especially if they're approaching). Has enough range to pass through/behind shielders and gets very far behind spot dodgers. I use this move more in the air actually because its priority is good against non-blade users and its delay throws off the intercept timing of air appraochers and ground campers.

yea, that's pretty much the only place i found it really useful... on the approach to the ground. but that's not much different that melee i suppose.

This move is great now. Also the latch-on aspect of it really crushes people who are used to just edgehogging without invincibility frames in effect because they think Falcon will just slide off. You wouldn't believe how many kills I've gotten from level smashing edgehoggers. Unfortunately as people begin to realize this new feature they will guard against it, but right now it's a beautiful sight to see.

haha, yep caught a few people off guard with that myself. like i've been saying all along, playing against human players will prove to be much different.

The lack of shield knockback is unfortunate. I think that the new timing due to the floatyness of Brawl hurts it more though because you have to wait so long just hanging in the air waiting to be punished before you can use it or else you'll just miss above their heads.

Yea, this got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard without nintendo intending it to be that way...

Great move for edgeguarding because it lasts so long and hits at all angles. Easier to dodge when coming in from above, but the up reach of it usually will allow you to hit them before they think they need to air dodge. Lots of kills with this one.

very true although i hadnt really used this as an edgeguard cuz the pc's never really grabbed the edge... it was either a spike-down kill or any of the other sides getting me a kill...

This move still has short hop utility if you do it right. As soon as you jump hit the C-Stick down and you'll land without any lag. Sadly you're right about the lack of shield knockback hurting it, but if you do the lagless one you can shield upon landing or spot dodge before they can unshield (unless they powershield it). As for its spiking I feel that it sucks now. The hitbox is much smaller and the timing is harder, so your chance of actually connecting with it is low. Given that his uAir and bAir are almost as good at killing and MUCH easier to hit with, I don't see much use for this move in edgeguarding anymore. Maybe with more practice I will get good enough with it that it will become relevant again, but right now I find it useless for edgeguarding.

yea, i did get a few really clean kills at 30% with the Dair tho... so i cant discount it's credibility... and the SHDair is still there, but it just doesnt do what it used to... sort of like the SHknee... just doesnt have that umph anymore...

This move did get hosed unfortunately. If it was as easy to hit with as in Melee no one would be ripping on Falcon around here because he's not the complete ownage package without it. If he did have it he would be a killing machine and would be 10x better. But sadly we are left with the new knee (uncaps for a reason). Luckily the knee still has the power of The Knee when sweetspotted, but it gimps so much that it's not a dependable kill when you need it. The gimp is ok because it lasts a while and has pretty decent priority, but overall this move lost its legendary status thanks to Brawl. Maybe if we all write to Sakurai he'll bring back its glory in SSB4. lol

we can only hope they'll bring it back to life later... for now we're stuck with this crap hand we've been dealt and yea... if the knee didnt get super ****ed then there'd be fewer angry CF users (myself included)

Indeed, a great move. Still working on RAR-ing it but man it's a great move. Lasts a long time and has good priority. It still saddens me that I jump off while facing backwards to edgeguard with it instead of forwards to Knee some fools like back in the day, but it is a good move nonetheless.

yea, i die a little inside when i edgeguard with this instead of the knee... it's still hard to get used to... but the RAR isnt too bad, just hard to control...


so.... to sum everything up...

PROS
- New UpB is very nice
- Bair hits hard all the time
- Ftilt has very good range
- Still fast as hell
- Still has a good air game

CONS
- Slippery when wet...
- Lack of good KO move that isnt a smash (All aerials and uTilt are kill moves) {when i say KO move i mean a really good -100% KO move lol... R.I.P. SHknee...}
- Fail knee is fail (indeed sadly )
- Lack of pushback vs shielded targets (this is probably his worst flaw)
- Low priority on just about everything but the Nair (even his Fsmash bounced of an opponents Filt... T_T) (lots of moves on every character have this same problem){true, but it's still really frustrating and should've been fixed with this game}
- No grab/Fsmash range (I disagree with both. fSmash can be extended with backdash to C-stick) {explain this backdashing... as far as i'm aware, the only smash you can do out of a dash before being **** near stopped is the Usmash... }
- Still lacks any kind of projectile whatsoever (Unfortunatly his other nerfs enhance this problem)
- Lack of L-cancelling leaves him open for lots of nasty punishing (Auto L-Cancel and proper technique solves this problem in most circumstances) {idk man... i keep trying to shield after i hit the ground from a SHNair and it just takes too long... you should fill me in on the auto L-cancel... cuz i've heard nothing about it lol}



Indeed, spot dodging and air dodging are the ways of the future. See you've already realized that there is a critical part of Brawl's gameplay that you seem to have not touched while playing Falcon. He has the potential I am telling you but you aren't going to see it after a week of the game being out! Everything changes with time. Look at Ike. A lot of people thought he was great when they played him at launch, but now they are realizing that he is way too slow to do anything against good players. Falcon will never be top tier in Brawl in my opinion but he has a lot of good things about him and a lot of fixable flaws (though there are still a fair amount that seem unfixable). Give him time, work on your game, and get back to us in a year or so.

lol i doubt it will take a year... but still i see what you're saying man. playing against real players, fixing my Brawl game and getting out of the Melee habits will be a bit tough, but time is the real test. I'll definately keep updating with how my game evolves. Shouldnt take too long, although i'll need to spend quality time with pikachu and wolf as well.

Also one last thing I wanted to mention that you didn't address here was his weight. Falcon is incredibly hard to kill in comparison with other characters. He goes well past 160% before dying usually while others get killed at anywhere from 80% to 120% (besides the true heavyweights like Bowser, Snake, DeDeDe, etc.). The point is, Falcon has the speed of Sheik and the weight of Snake without his backpack on. Also his moves' knockbacks increase more than many other characters' as the victim's damage goes up. This is one of the best aspects of Falcon that no one ever seems to mention and it really plays a big role in matches.

Yea, i didnt mention it i guess cuz i didnt see it as an issue... also i had DK killing me at 80% some rounds and that was just embarassing... but yes, his weight is very good and he can sustain quite a bit of damage before being Ko'd... the sad thing is that he takes damage really easily... or maybe that's just me lol... either way i need to work on my Brawl CF... too much of my Melee game is slipping in still...


Yea, thanks for the in depth reply to my in depth thread lol. I think with work, practice and time we'll see what CF is truly capable of... i'm really trying to be optimistic here.... but it is rather difficult given the currect situation... so idk... i guess we'll see where the future takes us.

good stuff sir :D

 

[domiNate]

Do you know about stutter stepping to increase his fsmash range? Smash the control stick backwards like you're starting a dash, then c-stick right. It gives him a notable range increase. I hear you can get an even bigger increase by starting a dash, pivoting it, and then c-sticking, but I'm not sure exactly how that version works.

Quickly, right on analog, left on analog, right on c-stick.

 

[Runeblade279]

Quickly, right on analog, left on analog, right on c-stick.

Replace right with up and get more precise running u-smashes. =)

Great stuff.

 

[KeyKid19]

"{explain this backdashing... as far as i'm aware, the only smash you can do out of a dash before being **** near stopped is the Usmash... }"

Dash away from your opponent, and as soon as you start running C-stick towards them. You'll do a little hop towards them and then execute the move. It's not a HUGE extension but it adds some critical reach in certain situations.

"{idk man... i keep trying to shield after i hit the ground from a SHNair and it just takes too long... you should fill me in on the auto L-cancel... cuz i've heard nothing about it lol}"

Certain moves just automatically L-Cancel in Brawl. SHNair is not one of them I think but there are others that do. I'll try and figure out which ones specifically tonight.

I'd have a more extended response but I have to go to work so I'll come back to this tonight when I get home. I really enjoyed your responses by the way.

 

[Mann]

"{explain this backdashingQUOTE]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gDs-lPmIUec

1:06 and up a bit. Back up, dodge a hit, smash. It's just slower to do now.

 

[domiNate]

Replace right with up and get more precise running u-smashes. =)

Great stuff.

Yup, precision, precision, precision. That's what it takes to play falcon in brawl, and that's why lag online = fail with falcon.

 

[KeyKid19]

Yup, precision, precision, precision. That's what it takes to play falcon in brawl, and that's why lag online = fail with falcon.

Honestly this quote is dripping with correctness. When I play online I never really feel comfortable with Falcon at all, everything is a struggle and maneuvering him with precision becomes impossible. After a miserable losing streak against other Wi-Fi-ers last night, I went into Training Mode with Falcon and it honestly felt like a totally different game. I could move with ease, I could sweetspot the knee, I could dash, I could turn around; it was great! Online is a great addition but it literally kills Falcon because his moves require precision and don't last very long so there is no room for error.

I honestly believe that quite a few of the matches I've lost online I would win in an offline Brawl.

 

[domiNate]

Honestly this quote is dripping with correctness.

That line got me laughing, haha. I'm glad you agree about the online thing, I get so frustrated with the lack of control but I know people hate to hear about it.

 

[Runeblade279]

Honestly this quote is dripping with correctness. When I play online I never really feel comfortable with Falcon at all, everything is a struggle and maneuvering him with precision becomes impossible. After a miserable losing streak against other Wi-Fi-ers last night, I went into Training Mode with Falcon and it honestly felt like a totally different game. I could move with ease, I could sweetspot the knee, I could dash, I could turn around; it was great! Online is a great addition but it literally kills Falcon because his moves require precision and don't last very long so there is no room for error.

I honestly believe that quite a few of the matches I've lost online I would win in an offline Brawl.

Sucks, I was looking forward to humiliating my online friends with many knees. =(

Ah well.

But yeah, I've noticed the precision thing too. Falcon is going to take lots of dedication.. But then when I attain my level of awesome from melee everyone will just be like "WTF HOW U DO DAT" and I'll just be lke "8)"

Falcon forever! ;P

 

[KeyKid19]

I think the inability to use Falcon well online sucks as well too. The knee takes the biggest hit of course because with it requiring such precison even offline now, online makes it a total bust. If you lay a sweetspotted knee on a non-noob player in Wifi you deserve applause. It can be done of course but the amount of duds you go through before getting one makes it not worth it.

Honestly I hope you become dominant with Falcon so that the rest of us can learn from your tactics. lol Right now he is defintely one of the hardest characters to use effectively but if you get on a roll with him he shows a flare of his old self.

Today my friend (who plays Samus) who I absolutely domolished in Melee in every match came over and we played Brawl 1v1s, and after a few close victories for me he started to beat me and even two stocked me once. "Man, Falcon sucks now" he said after his fourth consecutive win, and I said "yeah he's definitely gotten downgraded from his old self. That's why I'm starting to play around with some other characters to try and find a strong backup or possible main replacement. I'll always keep playing him though even if I'm not best with him." And then he said "well let's see who else you've got." So then we played some more battles with me alternating between Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Luigi, and Ganondorf. I started to win again but after a few rounds he beat me so he said "ok, pick your best character and this series will decide things." So I picked Falcon and told him to bring it.

We played five more matches and I won all of them with two full one stockers, two two stockers, and a three stocker. The difference came due to my shift of play style. Back in Melee, I could simply overwhelm him with ground speed and then dominate with aerials, but now my entire offensive revolves around rolling and shield grabbing. Even though it's effective it's sadly not nearly as fun as shredding him up in Melee was. Either way my entire objective was to simply get him in the air and once there just juggle him. Even with air dodges I was able to dominate him while he was in the air, and then once he landed again I went back to trying to grab him or running A him. If the shields weren't so dang fast and if Falcon's aerials ever knocked back shielders it would be a much more offensive gamestyle for Falcon, but sadly everyone is able to shield and unshield so fast that nearly all of Falcon's strong moves take too long to use (for me at least).

Maybe as Brawl evolves some tactics for utilizing Falcon's still great power moves will evolve, but right now I hardly use Smashes at all. It's all running As, A combos, tilts, and shield grabs at the moment. But yeah if I had been online I would've definitely not won NEARLY as easily in the last series of matches. That's why online tournaments will never become as good as real-life tourneys.

 

[Skybent]

ive used falcon since 64 but am now looking for another main. like said before he has his good attributes and when using him in training your like "OMG FALCON CAN ****" but then you face an actual opponet and get killed.

ive tried other characters but like the guy before me i just cant come to terms with letting falcon go.

you CAN run off the edge into an IMMEDIATE knee though. :]

 

[PhillipthaGoober]

Even after all that I'm still sticking with Captain Falcon.

 

[Runeblade279]

I think the inability to use Falcon well online sucks as well too. The knee takes the biggest hit of course because with it requiring such precison even offline now, online makes it a total bust. If you lay a sweetspotted knee on a non-noob player in Wifi you deserve applause. It can be done of course but the amount of duds you go through before getting one makes it not worth it.

Honestly I hope you become dominant with Falcon so that the rest of us can learn from your tactics. lol Right now he is defintely one of the hardest characters to use effectively but if you get on a roll with him he shows a flare of his old self.

Today my friend (who plays Samus) who I absolutely domolished in Melee in every match came over and we played Brawl 1v1s, and after a few close victories for me he started to beat me and even two stocked me once. "Man, Falcon sucks now" he said after his fourth consecutive win, and I said "yeah he's definitely gotten downgraded from his old self. That's why I'm starting to play around with some other characters to try and find a strong backup or possible main replacement. I'll always keep playing him though even if I'm not best with him." And then he said "well let's see who else you've got." So then we played some more battles with me alternating between Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Luigi, and Ganondorf. I started to win again but after a few rounds he beat me so he said "ok, pick your best character and this series will decide things." So I picked Falcon and told him to bring it.

We played five more matches and I won all of them with two full one stockers, two two stockers, and a three stocker. The difference came due to my shift of play style. Back in Melee, I could simply overwhelm him with ground speed and then dominate with aerials, but now my entire offensive revolves around rolling and shield grabbing. Even though it's effective it's sadly not nearly as fun as shredding him up in Melee was. Either way my entire objective was to simply get him in the air and once there just juggle him. Even with air dodges I was able to dominate him while he was in the air, and then once he landed again I went back to trying to grab him or running A him. If the shields weren't so dang fast and if Falcon's aerials ever knocked back shielders it would be a much more offensive gamestyle for Falcon, but sadly everyone is able to shield and unshield so fast that nearly all of Falcon's strong moves take too long to use (for me at least).

Maybe as Brawl evolves some tactics for utilizing Falcon's still great power moves will evolve, but right now I hardly use Smashes at all. It's all running As, A combos, tilts, and shield grabs at the moment. But yeah if I had been online I would've definitely not won NEARLY as easily in the last series of matches. That's why online tournaments will never become as good as real-life tourneys.

I find his slower power moves to be great for mindgames and making your opponent slip up into them. Can't count the times my bro (plays pit, ugh, most annoying character ever) shield rolls into Falcon's D-smash.

Yeah Falcon's new game has alot to do with his dash A, tilts, and grabs. I've noticed that his best kill move is falcon punch, better than the new knee, and so I'm working on using it well, I've actually had some success, it's pretty beastly.

Yeah he plays differently, his low priority coupled with the now low hitstun makes it a game of dodge and punish (to a degree, the entire game is like this, but it affects Falcon distinctly), you gotta outmanuever and outthink your opponent or you lose. If I pay attention with Falcon and know the character I'm fighting, I can win 90% of the time because he is such a beastly punisher.

That's not to say Falcon won't win against good players, you just need to play smart. I have tried a good number of characters in this game, and I can say with almost no doubt at all that Falcon is THE hardest character to play in Brawl at a competitive level. Period.

But he IS a blast to play when you do it right. I notice more and more as I play Brawl Falcon that it's going to be a matter of changing my melee second nature moves and thought processes (which I ***** with every time) to Brawl counterparts, which are different and perhaps require more thought, but just as powerful. I'm confident that after a solid year of playing this game, I will be very good at Falcon. XP

 

[Dragon Master Luigi]

My brother is actually very badass with Falcon.. from 64 to Brawl he's been adjusted to him.. he can nearly kill me.. he knows how to knee my character in the face right..

 

[Mann]

My brother is actually very badass with Falcon.. from 64 to Brawl he's been adjusted to him.. he can nearly kill me.. he knows how to knee my character in the face right..

Discussion about Falcon and his disadvantages.. Not a discussion about difference in ability/skill between actual people.

 

[KeyKid19]

I find his slower power moves to be great for mindgames and making your opponent slip up into them. Can't count the times my bro (plays pit, ugh, most annoying character ever) shield rolls into Falcon's D-smash.

Yeah Falcon's new game has alot to do with his dash A, tilts, and grabs. I've noticed that his best kill move is falcon punch, better than the new knee, and so I'm working on using it well, I've actually had some success, it's pretty beastly.

Yeah he plays differently, his low priority coupled with the now low hitstun makes it a game of dodge and punish (to a degree, the entire game is like this, but it affects Falcon distinctly), you gotta outmanuever and outthink your opponent or you lose. If I pay attention with Falcon and know the character I'm fighting, I can win 90% of the time because he is such a beastly punisher.

That's not to say Falcon won't win against good players, you just need to play smart. I have tried a good number of characters in this game, and I can say with almost no doubt at all that Falcon is THE hardest character to play in Brawl at a competitive level. Period.

But he IS a blast to play when you do it right. I notice more and more as I play Brawl Falcon that it's going to be a matter of changing my melee second nature moves and thought processes (which I ***** with every time) to Brawl counterparts, which are different and perhaps require more thought, but just as powerful. I'm confident that after a solid year of playing this game, I will be very good at Falcon. XP

Have you played Wi-Fi matches at all? I feel that the lag really hurts Falcon more than it does most other characters. Do you have the same feeling if/when you play online? Or do you just adapt in such a way that it minimizes the effect on him? I agree that Brawl Falcon is definitely the hardest character to play well with in the game. After trying out other characters to a fairly deep degree I can honestly say that picking them up and being good with them is ridiculously easier than picking up Falcon and being good with him. He is indeed fun to play as like you said but I keep running into certain things that really limit my abilities with him (priority being the biggest thing I'd say).

How would you rate yourself as a Falcon user? Would you say that there is a lot of untapped potential left in him that you'll get with practice or are you already just working on improving your pre-existing strategies? Pretty much tell me everything you think about Falcon. lol You seem like you think you're pretty good, so if you're being truthful which me being the optimist I am thinks you are, I'd love to hear any nuggets of strategy/possible combos/style ideas that you have because you're more then likely better than me. Also if you have any strategies against Olimar and Zero Suit Samus in particular I'd love to hear them. lol

Also if you have Wi-Fi I'd like to play against you sometime to see how we stack up.

 

[Runeblade279]

Have you played Wi-Fi matches at all? I feel that the lag really hurts Falcon more than it does most other characters. Do you have the same feeling if/when you play online? Or do you just adapt in such a way that it minimizes the effect on him? I agree that Brawl Falcon is definitely the hardest character to play well with in the game. After trying out other characters to a fairly deep degree I can honestly say that picking them up and being good with them is ridiculously easier than picking up Falcon and being good with him. He is indeed fun to play as like you said but I keep running into certain things that really limit my abilities with him (priority being the biggest thing I'd say).

How would you rate yourself as a Falcon user? Would you say that there is a lot of untapped potential left in him that you'll get with practice or are you already just working on improving your pre-existing strategies? Pretty much tell me everything you think about Falcon. lol You seem like you think you're pretty good, so if you're being truthful which me being the optimist I am thinks you are, I'd love to hear any nuggets of strategy/possible combos/style ideas that you have because you're more then likely better than me. Also if you have any strategies against Olimar and Zero Suit Samus in particular I'd love to hear them. lol

Also if you have Wi-Fi I'd like to play against you sometime to see how we stack up.

I have yet to connect my Wii to the internet, my wireless is kinda *****y, so I can't say how I'll fare with online lag. I'm betting it'll beat my game down, but my primary online opponent is only like 50 miles away so it shouldn't be too bad.

Yeah his low priority coupled with his less than solid approaches really hamper his game. Dashing shield grab is still **** though. XD

As for rating myself, I would say I'm still learning and adapting to the new falcon, though I'm developing more and more strategies as I play. I do -seem- like I know alot, but keep in mind I don't have a whole lot of diversity in my opponents, in fact I'd wager that I'm actually not all that good. Then again, I might be godly and just don't know it. Guess I'll find out. XD

Olimar and ZSS? Well, I haven't played against Olimar at all really. As for ZSS.. Well, my bro plays her not so well, but I play ZSS as a secondary myself so I could probably give you a few theories, though some of them might not work. I find that she's fairly easy to dodge, just stay away from the dsmash (paralyzes) and dodge her side+B and her grab. And watch out for the down+B kick, it's a good move. Not all that hard to punish in general, really. But again, I haven't played a -good- ZSS, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

As for general strategy, as I said earlier in my post, his best two kill moves are the new knee and the falcon punch, the latter being the best. Both can be pretty difficult to land, which is I think his biggest drawback excluding his low priority. I can rack damage like nothing, and while his uairs are still good, they're not KO material until 150 or upwards. (Which sometimes is the only thing you'll get, so don't be afraid to jump out there with one) A well placed knee can take em down at 70-80, a punch at 60-70. This is probably the part of my game I will be working on the most. The new knee gives me trouble alot, and the punch is best used via mindgames and when people least expect it. There's no real "best time" to use a punch or a knee, you gotta play it by ear really. Unless we're talking Pit's Up+B. Knee that ****.

Oh, and in case of not being able to hit with those ones, go for the utilt KO, it's an awesome-sauce move now, I've killed around 120 or so with it. His fsmash isn't bad either if you can land it, KOs around 100, I think. It's a good punisher if you can roll behind a laggy move.

What I mean by melee second nature to brawl second nature is kind of hard to explain.. I had this sort of undercurrent with my melee falcon that began to show itself during the later stages of playing, I just slide in from move to move. That doesn't mean combos, it doesn't mean hit strings, it more means the sort of zen-state that I had when I knew that game inside and out, I knew how every character's attacks worked, I knew how to counter them, and I had my Falcon down to such a degree that I could react on a dime. Whether it be a dodge, countermove, grab, or a knee. It wasn't that I didn't think about it, I was a mindgamer in melee for sure (never learned to wavedash, by the time it interested me, brawl would be out soon) but I just KNEW Falcon and I KNEW the game.

From time to time, I would run into an obstacle to my game (i.e. when my bro started playing marth well) and it would take me around 4 or so matches to devise a way to counter/get around/beat it.

Keep in mind this doesn't mean I won every time (I did most of the time though. XP) but it was a blast and I felt powerful, in control, and I was a force to be reckoned with when I chose Falcon. I don't quite have that feeling with brawl falcon.

Such a play state is going to come from two things; A good bit of research into Falcon's new moves, matchups, and plays, but firstly, foremostly, and all importantly, experience. I just need to play the **** game more and I'll get better. XP

Really long post here. Kudos to all you who read it all. ;P

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've never lost to a level 9 or human DK with Falcon. DK is the worst character in Brawl, hands down. If you can't beat him you are using Falcon incorrectly.

Agreed that DK isn't good, but he isn't the absolute worst character in the game. You may correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've observed, he's definitely better than Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. He has more reliable kill options like his Up-air, D-smash, and Giant Punch, and he's got them both beat in terms of range and priority and approach methods. His recovery is also a fair bit better than that of the other two characters.

I personally argue that Captain Falcon is the worst character in the game this time around due to having the least available variety when his slower than average moves no put amazing pressure, set up solid combos, or reliably kill. Even Ganondorf actually beats him out minorly in the combo department because he can set up a techchase game with his Forward B (which doesn't have dumb ending lag if he misses) not to mention Ganon's ground game is better due to having so many more viable kill moves like his super fast Dash attack and F-tilt which are deceptively powerful. Captain Falcon's air game may be somewhat better, but he still doesn't get incredibly reliable kill options from it. Also, Ganon's Up-B and Down-B >>> Falcon's.

 

[IWuvGeno]

I personally argue that Captain Falcon is the worst character in the game...

The more I play him, the more I fear this is coming true. So much time practicing wasted... let's hope more adv. techs can save him.

 

[veritron]

I destroyed a Captain Falcon main with Yoshi. Yoshi sucks.

 

[domiNate]

Yoshi isn't that bad if you use him properly. Yeah, Captain Falcon sucks, but that's why I play him.

 

[Ayato]

I think that the tremendous gap in Falcon's usability between melee and brawl has caused many (but not all) old Falcon players to believe that he's a complete gimp in this game. I think it's important to realize that, what with advanced techniques in the last game, Falcon was god **** near BROKEN as a character. Characters that were extraordinary in the last game, as a whole, seem to have needed much more nerfing in order to balance the game. In my opinion, Sakurai and his team have done a more than outstanding job in producing a set of characters that, in 1v1, has the great potential to be BALANCED. Falcon was robbed of his knee so that he couldn't just combo spam a finishing move all the time. His approach was weakened because its older counterpart was so beastly. Dair has been made into a move that must be executed with extreme care and precision, along with a good lot of his other moves now. His air game has completely changed, and without the knee relies heavily on nair, bair, and uair. The jab combo was weakened because.....

Well, actually, I have no idea why he nerfed the "Gentleman" motion of Falcon's jab combo because it leaves Falcon out there as a sitting duck. They can DI and recover from hitstun fast enough that you can't cancel the jabbing animations before they get a chance to hit you back. It's ******** really.

Anyway, point is that I think that expecting Falcon to perform so high above the rest of the crowd as he did in Melee is a mistake. I personally don't have much of a problem handling anything between 1v1 and 4 man with C.Falc. Sure, Falcon can be gimped easily on his approach nowadays, especially by characters like Pit, Marth, and MK, but every characters sees his tough matchups. Falcon is still VERY PLAYABLE (though admittedly not online) and is MOST CERTAINLY not the worst character in the game. I can't really determine a "worst" in the game anymore the way I could in the last one. I've found almost (not quite completely) equal potential in each character to win. Rather than expect Falcon to perform like a god as he did in the past, try to just accept that Falcon, one of the gods of the last two games, has been brought down to the level of the rest of the cast, most certainly for the better of producing a balanced game.

I've been able to pull out victories in most of the conceivable 1v1 combinations in the game (not just Falcon alone, but with other characters that "suck" according to the public at large, say DK and Yoshi). In fact, I've been able to establish decent W:L ratios with said characters. In fact, I've been able to do so well with any of the characters that I'm still experimenting with the random switch. I can't quite adopt a main because I've really found everyone to be playable. This game is as closed to balanced as fighting games will ever come. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's as much as we can ask for. Most of the once "top-tier" characters were brought down from their high ground and made to stand on even footing with crappier ones. It's for the best.

Verily, Falcon doesn't suck. The game's barely been out long enough to judge that. Just play with him more. Practice, practice, practice. He's just as good as everyone else, maybe even a little bit better. Just figure out how to play your cards.

 

[KeyKid19]

@ Runeblade:

Your description of your Melee Falcon sounds exactly like how I would describe mine, even down to the no wavedashing and didn't try learning that much because by the time I cared Brawl was right around the corner. I also know what you mean by the "zen-like" state; I got the same feeling as well. It sounds like we are very similarly styled and skilled Melee Falcon players. I also agree that Falcon will take time just like in every other game. The only problem is that I just don't see quite as much potential this time around although I do think he can be a pretty beast character if you learn him really well and execute his style really well. Hopefully we'll both be able to revive our strong Falcon games eventually.

@ A2ZOMG:

DK is terrible and definitely WAY worse than Falcon and Ganondorf. His character frame is enormous and he is one of the if not THE most punishable characters in the game. Any decent Falcon user will be able to use the knee like we're back in Melee again when playing against DK. All of his moves are slow that are worth using and his kills moves are not as powerful as Falcon's or Ganondorf's (both of whom have more than DK's three by the way). Falcon has Utilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Fair, Dair, Bair, Uair, B, and SideB. Ganondorf has even more than that. Giant Punch is just as easily dodged as DK's Fsmash and just as punishable, and it has to be charged up which sucks. Also if we're talking Final Smashes as well his is widely regarded as the worst in the game while Falcon and Ganondorf both have formidable ones of their own.

If you think DK has better recovery than Falcon you seriously need to learn what you're talking about. DK's UpB has almost NO vertical lift, is SO easily spiked, and also can be broken easily by incoming attacks. Falcon has both a horizontal AND a vertical recovery, one of which that spikes and the other which allows him to cling onto edgehoggers and level spike them. I never die from lack of recovery with Falcon. The only way to kill me is by knocking me past the KO edges of the level. I cannot say the same for DK. He is edgeguarded very easily and has trouble recovering from below the edge. Ganondorf's recovery is like a gimped version of Falcon's and even though his UpB has a punch (which really is useless) it lacks range for recovery and really doesn't act as a good attack either. So I'd say that DK might have better recovery than Ganondorf just because Ganondorf can't recover horizontally OR vertically.

If you think Captain Falcon is the worst character in the game then you clearly have no played any good Falcons. Ganondorf is STILL too slow even with his better version of the ground SideB and any good Falcon player will punish him. Also no L-Canceling kills Ganondorf really badly, even more than Falcon. As for DownB, I really don't understand how you would possibly say that Ganondorf's version ">>>" Falcon's. Falcon's has more range and less landing lag and neither version is a kill move.

I could go on and on about this but there's no point because obviously you have never seen anyone who doesn't suck with Falcon. Get back to me once you play against someone who's good with him. And if you use DK I wish the best of luck to you and maybe if you're lucky you won't get two or three stocked by Falcon.

 

[KeyKid19]

I think that the tremendous gap in Falcon's usability between melee and brawl has caused many (but not all) old Falcon players to believe that he's a complete gimp in this game. I think it's important to realize that, what with advanced techniques in the last game, Falcon was god **** near BROKEN as a character. Characters that were extraordinary in the last game, as a whole, seem to have needed much more nerfing in order to balance the game. In my opinion, Sakurai and his team have done a more than outstanding job in producing a set of characters that, in 1v1, has the great potential to be BALANCED. Falcon was robbed of his knee so that he couldn't just combo spam a finishing move all the time. His approach was weakened because its older counterpart was so beastly. Dair has been made into a move that must be executed with extreme care and precision, along with a good lot of his other moves now. His air game has completely changed, and without the knee relies heavily on nair, bair, and uair. The jab combo was weakened because.....

Well, actually, I have no idea why he nerfed the "Gentleman" motion of Falcon's jab combo because it leaves Falcon out there as a sitting duck. They can DI and recover from hitstun fast enough that you can't cancel the jabbing animations before they get a chance to hit you back. It's ******** really.

Anyway, point is that I think that expecting Falcon to perform so high above the rest of the crowd as he did in Melee is a mistake. I personally don't have much of a problem handling anything between 1v1 and 4 man with C.Falc. Sure, Falcon can be gimped easily on his approach nowadays, especially by characters like Pit, Marth, and MK, but every characters sees his tough matchups. Falcon is still VERY PLAYABLE (though admittedly not online) and is MOST CERTAINLY not the worst character in the game. I can't really determine a "worst" in the game anymore the way I could in the last one. I've found almost (not quite completely) equal potential in each character to win. Rather than expect Falcon to perform like a god as he did in the past, try to just accept that Falcon, one of the gods of the last two games, has been brought down to the level of the rest of the cast, most certainly for the better of producing a balanced game.

I've been able to pull out victories in most of the conceivable 1v1 combinations in the game (not just Falcon alone, but with other characters that "suck" according to the public at large, say DK and Yoshi). In fact, I've been able to establish decent W:L ratios with said characters. In fact, I've been able to do so well with any of the characters that I'm still experimenting with the random switch. I can't quite adopt a main because I've really found everyone to be playable. This game is as closed to balanced as fighting games will ever come. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's as much as we can ask for. Most of the once "top-tier" characters were brought down from their high ground and made to stand on even footing with crappier ones. It's for the best.

Verily, Falcon doesn't suck. The game's barely been out long enough to judge that. Just play with him more. Practice, practice, practice. He's just as good as everyone else, maybe even a little bit better. Just figure out how to play your cards.

QFT.

Finally someone who actually knows something about the new Falcon and the new balancing!

I still nominate DK for worst in the game though. lol

 

[domiNate]

Dude DK is a beast.

 

[Runeblade279]

@ Runeblade:

Your description of your Melee Falcon sounds exactly like how I would describe mine, even down to the no wavedashing and didn't try learning that much because by the time I cared Brawl was right around the corner. I also know what you mean by the "zen-like" state; I got the same feeling as well. It sounds like we are very similarly styled and skilled Melee Falcon players. I also agree that Falcon will take time just like in every other game. The only problem is that I just don't see quite as much potential this time around although I do think he can be a pretty beast character if you learn him really well and execute his style really well. Hopefully we'll both be able to revive our strong Falcon games eventually.

@ A2ZOMG:

DK is terrible and definitely WAY worse than Falcon and Ganondorf. His character frame is enormous and he is one of the if not THE most punishable characters in the game. Any decent Falcon user will be able to use the knee like we're back in Melee again when playing against DK. All of his moves are slow that are worth using and his kills moves are not as powerful as Falcon's or Ganondorf's (both of whom have more than DK's three by the way). Falcon has Utilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Fair, Dair, Bair, Uair, B, and SideB. Ganondorf has even more than that. Giant Punch is just as easily dodged as DK's Fsmash and just as punishable, and it has to be charged up which sucks. Also if we're talking Final Smashes as well his is widely regarded as the worst in the game while Falcon and Ganondorf both have formidable ones of their own.

If you think DK has better recovery than Falcon you seriously need to learn what you're talking about. DK's UpB has almost NO vertical lift, is SO easily spiked, and also can be broken easily by incoming attacks. Falcon has both a horizontal AND a vertical recovery, one of which that spikes and the other which allows him to cling onto edgehoggers and level spike them. I never die from lack of recovery with Falcon. The only way to kill me is by knocking me past the KO edges of the level. I cannot say the same for DK. He is edgeguarded very easily and has trouble recovering from below the edge. Ganondorf's recovery is like a gimped version of Falcon's and even though his UpB has a punch (which really is useless) it lacks range for recovery and really doesn't act as a good attack either. So I'd say that DK might have better recovery than Ganondorf just because Ganondorf can't recover horizontally OR vertically.

If you think Captain Falcon is the worst character in the game then you clearly have no played any good Falcons. Ganondorf is STILL too slow even with his better version of the ground SideB and any good Falcon player will punish him. Also no L-Canceling kills Ganondorf really badly, even more than Falcon. As for DownB, I really don't understand how you would possibly say that Ganondorf's version ">>>" Falcon's. Falcon's has more range and less landing lag and neither version is a kill move.

I could go on and on about this but there's no point because obviously you have never seen anyone who doesn't suck with Falcon. Get back to me once you play against someone who's good with him. And if you use DK I wish the best of luck to you and maybe if you're lucky you won't get two or three stocked by Falcon.

Wow, we do sound alot alike. Can't wait to get Wifi and play yeh!

Yeah, the potential outlook seems rather grim from time to time (then again, since I'm a masochist, I train against falcon's worst matchups, so that may have something to do with it lol) but I see the glimmer of awesome at least once a battle. For instance, I double kneed olimar off the edge into death, it was glorious. Computer olimar, but still glorious.

EDIT: DK in Brawl is pretty good imo, still suffers from similar problems however.

 

[inside]

I got really down the first time I played falcon, it was like learning how to play again, everything was so different to me. I got murked with a level 9 mario... and I don't know. Whenever my friends come over we always end up playing Melee after a good hour of playing brawl for some reason. So yeah, I think I'll just play more of the game just to get the hang of it, but really I don't know anymore.

 

[KeyKid19]

Wow, we do sound alot alike. Can't wait to get Wifi and play yeh!

Yeah, the potential outlook seems rather grim from time to time (then again, since I'm a masochist, I train against falcon's worst matchups, so that may have something to do with it lol) but I see the glimmer of awesome at least once a battle. For instance, I double kneed olimar off the edge into death, it was glorious. Computer olimar, but still glorious.

EDIT: DK in Brawl is pretty good imo, still suffers from similar problems however.

Falcon definitely still shines in moments as I've said for days now. It takes a LOT more work to awaken his beastliness in Brawl than it did in Melee, but to say that he is "the worst character in Brawl" or anything close to that is ridiculous. Is he the most NERFED? I would say he probably is. But that doesn't mean he's the worst character by any means. It just means that they took someone who could shred up any character in the previous game and made him human. It's called balancing! Is it a little frustrating that other beast characters did not experience nearly as great of a nerf as Falcon (like Fox, Falco, and Marth)? Sure it's frustrating but that makes it all the more sweet when you beat those guys. And yes, Falcon still can and still will beat all three of those guys if you play smart (and aren't playing Ken lol).

As for DK, I don't think that any character with a large frame will ever be a GREAT character or even GOOD for that matter. DeDeDe is the ONLY POSSIBLE exception to this rule and even he has a tendency to be punished like his big-boned buddies (a muffed running a with him is even punishable by a Warlock Punch which is REALLY sad). DeDeDe is better simply because he has critical improvements over the other big guys in the areas of recovery and speed (sorry, DK's recovery does NOT cut it by any means!). Once again, anyone who thinks DK's recovery is better than Falcon's really needs to have their head checked out. Is DK a closer rival to Falcon in Brawl than in Melee? Sure he is but to claim he has surpassed him is ridiculous.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything but it's really annoying when people come in here and bash Falcon when they don't know what they are talking about AT ALL. Anyone who has played less than 200 matches with him in Brawl has NO room to say ANYTHING about him besides initial impressions. Falcon takes patience and practice in Brawl and apparently those two qualities are lacking in the majority of old Melee Falcon-mainers seeing as how no one plays him anymore and generally anyone besides the core crew of Brawl Falcon mainers on this board just come here to say "he slow and nerfed." I will be the first to tell you that Falcon's superiority over the majority of Smash characters has decreased a lot, but he is still a blast to play as and (from what I can see at this early stage in Brawl's life) has a pretty good game when used correctly. People act like he's terrible because he's not the best now but really he never was the best to start with so it's no biggie. If you want to play a higher tier character, go for it. No one is stopping you. I've played with other characters who are better than Falcon but they aren't nearly as fun to play for me so I stick with Falcon. Do what works for you, but don't come in here whining because you suck with Brawl Falcon and want an easier character. It's not because he's the worst character, it's because you're BAD with him.

Wow that evolved into a long reply unintentionally. That happens a lot with me though I guess so oh well.

And yeah Runeblade I am eagerly awaiting our first Wi-Fi match as well! lol