Captain Falcon’s uthrow followups on Falco

Kadano

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#1
Captain Falcon’s uthrow followups on Falco
Percent ranges the chaingrab works on for different DIs:

All percents are given as before hit¹. Only useful options are included. I chose to go only with the simple options because testing this takes really long.
DI slightly behind (I used the 108° notch): 32%-123%
No DI: 40%-126%
DI straight behind: 40%-139%
DI straight forward: 130-135%

Percent range No DI DI straight forward DI straight behind DI slightly behind
0-31
32-39 regrab (standing, no turn)
40-50 r turn regrab r
51-59 r, short hop uair tr r, shu
60-69 r, shu tr r, shu
70-85 r, shu turn dash JC regrab, shb r, shu
86-115 r, shu, shf, fsmash tdr, shb, fsmash r, shu, shf, fsmash
116-123 r, shu, shf, fsmash dash shu tdr, shb, fsmash, turn shf r, shu, shf, fsmash
124-126 r, shu, shf, fsmash dash shu tdr, shb, fsmash, turn shf shu, shf, fsmash
127-129 shu, shf dash shu tdr, shb, fsmash, turn shf shu, shf
130-135 shu, shf dash shu, run JC regrab tdr, shb, turn shf shu, shf
136-139 shu, shf dash shu tdr, shb, turn shf shu, shf
140-150 shu, shf dash shu, dash shf tdr, shb, turn shf shu, shf

Most things should be exact. Some things like fsmash might work a few percents longer.

¹Melee uses percent after hit for KB calculation, but this only makes a difference with move staling, which moves the effective range by 1-3%, so I accept this minor inaccuracy for easier memorizing on the reader’s part. I’m sure I’ve pointed this out a few times already, but I haven’t posted here at the Falcon boards often, so some readers here might be unaware.
 
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carnivore

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#2
thanks for this.
essentially guaranteed follow ups starting at 40% on missed DI is amazing to know. in such a volatile match up, taking your safe, guaranteed damage is important.

I guess we're not considering darkrain/ss tilts to stomp/knee as useful options anymore :p
 
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Kadano

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#3
I guess we're not considering darkrain/ss tilts to stomp/knee as useful options anymore :p
I’m pretty sure whenever dtilt → knee would hit (no DI, 90-120% or something like that), fsmash hits as well. It has similar knockback, so I don’t think going for dtilt → knee has enough benefits to cramp them in the table. I want to keep it clean and simple, I think including combos would make it too confusing.
 

Zhea

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#7
Good work as always Kadano, but I need to ask for the sake of my own mental discrepancy.
1) How does down and away effect these grabs? There are several falcon throw combos which work with away DI which have far shorter percent ranges with down and away.
2) I'm 100% positive that after 115-120% u-throw knee works on both fox and falco with away/down and away DI. I trust your data, so why isn't that listed? How do they get out?

Also if you want I have some rough data on falcon throw combos for floaty characters I can share with you if you want to expand this guide that should cut out some legwork(It's not tool assisted so I assume I am wrong at certain points, but it's been practical for me). Also have a majority of the CC percents for Falcon against top tiers if you are interested in that as well.
 

Kadano

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#8
1) How does down and away effect these grabs? There are several falcon throw combos which work with away DI which have far shorter percent ranges with down and away.
I think you might have misunderstood how trajectory DI works. I suggest you watch this part of my video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0&t=2m50s
2) I'm 100% positive that after 115-120% u-throw knee works on both fox and falco with away/down and away DI. I trust your data, so why isn't that listed? How do they get out?
They DI straight away (0° / 180° with maximum distance from neutral stick positon). And then tech or jump out.

I guess you’ve never had a Falco do proper DI on your uthrow if you are 100% positive knee works on it, haha. :p
Proof that it doesn’t work at 120%: http://gfycat.com/AccomplishedLegitimateGopher
That’s the closest I was able to get to hitting.

Also if you want I have some rough data on falcon throw combos for floaty characters I can share with you if you want to expand this guide that should cut out some legwork(It's not tool assisted so I assume I am wrong at certain points, but it's been practical for me). Also have a majority of the CC percents for Falcon against top tiers if you are interested in that as well.
I only did this because @ Bones0 Bones0 requested it and this got me curious. I don’t plan on doing more of this for Falcon. I’m a Marth guy after all.
 
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Zhea

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#9
I guess they aren't mashing jump frame perfect then. I've stolen a lot of DJ's with it. Also have you tried it without shffling the knee? It looks like you are FF after the hit box comes out.
 

Bones0

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#10
Thanks, Kadano. What is the actual trajectory of Falcon's uthrow? I thought it went slightly behind, but I guess it might be so slight that perpendicular DI is still optimal?
 
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Kadano

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#12
I guess they aren't mashing jump frame perfect then. I've stolen a lot of DJ's with it. Also have you tried it without shffling the knee? It looks like you are FF after the hit box comes out.
They don’t need to mash jump. I wrote: “And then tech or jump out”. If they don’t jump, they will hit the ground before your knee can connect. If they tech, they are intangible immediately.

It starts connecting at 130% before uthrow. Maybe 1-3% less, but not more. I’ll add it to the table.

Thanks, Kadano. What is the actual trajectory of Falcon's uthrow? I thought it went slightly behind, but I guess it might be so slight that perpendicular DI is still optimal?
Don’t you have access to Excel? I’m pretty sure I’ve already linked you Toomai’s hitbubble collection so you can check things like this quickly on your own.
Anyway, KB angle is 85°. So slightly forward, not behind. Because 85° is within the 17° zone of the mod90° notches, the best angle to hold for trajectory DI is still straight left / right. (Explanation by Magus420)
DI behind will change the KB angle to about 100°, DI forward changes it to about 70°. Because 70° deviate by 20° from 90°, while it’s only 10° deviation for 100°, you effectively have twice the horizontal momentum and additionally a lower flying curve. So the angle being 85° and not 90° makes a big difference on the DI options.

The combo is super close on Falco. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually does work on Fox since he doesn't fall as fast and you have less lag from the throw animation.
Actually, Falcon’s uthrow is not weight dependent and always lasts 43 frames. (For more information: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469)
 
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Bones0

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#13
They don’t need to mash jump. I wrote: “And then tech or jump out”. If they don’t jump, they will hit the ground before your knee can connect. If they tech, they are intangible immediately.

It starts connecting at 130% before uthrow. Maybe 1-3% less, but not more. I’ll add it to the table.


Don’t you have access to Excel? I’m pretty sure I’ve already linked you Toomai’s hitbubble collection so you can check things like this quickly on your own.
Anyway, KB angle is 85°. So slightly forward, not behind. Because 85° is within the 17° zone of the mod90° notches, the best angle to hold for trajectory DI is still straight left / right. (Explanation by Magus420)
DI behind will change the KB angle to about 100°, DI forward changes it to about 70°. Because 70° deviate by 20° from 90°, while it’s only 10° deviation for 100°, you effectively have twice the horizontal momentum and additionally a lower flying curve. So the angle being 85° and not 90° makes a big difference on the DI options.


Actually, Falcon’s uthrow is not weight dependent and always lasts 43 frames. (For more information: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469)
Oh yeah, that thing is amazing. I'll have to get in the habit of checking it first. I just forgot about it. lol And thanks for correcting me about the throw. derp
 

タオー

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#14
Actually, Falcon’s uthrow is not weight dependent and always lasts 43 frames. (For more information:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469)
I understand that Falcon's uthrow isn't dependent on weight, but what about fall speed/acceleration? Are they dependent variables on weight, and so they aren't calculated in the throw?
 

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#15

Mokumo

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#19
It would be nice to know what percents forward tilt and down angled forward tilt hit at for the missed tech set up.
The down tilt setup starts working at 50% or maybe just under that. While uthrow -> dtilt works for a while after 50, most people will see it coming at later percents so you won't be forcing any missed techs. I don't know the exact % for low-angled ftilt, but it's closer to 60-65 and it works best when they DI behind you.
 

gravy

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#20
I have some conflicting data. I see that you're listing % before the throw, correct? How exact are you trying to be?
 

Kadano

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#21
I have some conflicting data. I see that you're listing % before the throw, correct? How exact are you trying to be?
What is it? It’s completely possible I overlooked something or made some mistakes, so I can test the conflicting %-DI-combinations again to find out.

Yes, before throw. ±2%.
 

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#22
I guess I should ask a few questions first. What are you using to know when they can jump out? And when you say sh uair, do you mean an instant uair or a jumping late uair?
 

Kadano

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#23
What are you using to know when they can jump out?
I mash x and y alternatively on every frame near the end of hitstun. Unless I already know the frame hitstun ends on, in this case I only input the jump on that frame.
And when you say sh uair, do you mean an instant uair or a jumping late uair?
Instant, usually.
 

gravy

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#24
Actually it all looks pretty good, except I have fsmash working on neutral DI at 85%, and behind DI at 87. I record all my percents after the throw, so on your table this would be 78 and 80.
 

gravy

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#25
Before you read this wall of text, keep in mind that I always use the percent after the throw in my notation because uh.... That's the correct way to do it. So yah subtract 7 and that's the percent when fresh.

Alright, so I went back and checked this, and here's the carfax:

Uthrow fsmash works at 83% on neutral and 87% on in DI, 82% on slightly in. Kadano, I might be wrong on this slightly in figure. I used the notch to the left of up, I made an assumption that you were referring to that. Now, when I say "works," what I mean is, it hits them before they can tech and escape via intangibility. HOWEVER, they can technically shine out until 92%. At 92% Uthrow fsmash becomes a true combo, assuming they DI anywhere within range of fsmash. The thing is, if they attempt to shine out before 92, they need to shine literally frame perfectly, and I can tell from experience that this basically never happens. Also, if executed correctly, you will catch any attempt to jump out, making them even more dead.

Now, here's the stun scaling of our throws. This will make it a little easier if you decide to do further testing. I copied it directly from my notes, and I also list every character I double checked it with. Technically, I suppose it's possible that there's some char our throws scale differently on, but I doubt it. Anyways, here you are;

Sheik falcon Marth peach puff ganon fox falco uthrow

7-9:36

10-16:37

17-23:38

24-30:39

31-37:40

38-43:41

44-50:42

51-57:43

58-64:44

65-71:45

72-77:46

78-84:47

85-91:48

92-98:49

99-105:50

106-111:51

112-118:52

119-125:53

126-132:54

133-139:55

140-145:56

146-152:57

153-159:58


Puff peach falcon falco fox Ganon marth sheik dthrow

7-18:33

19-29:34

30-41:35

42-53:36

54-64:37

65-76:38

77-88:39

89-99:40

100-111:41

112-123:42

124-134:43

135-146:44

147-158:45
 

gravy

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#26
As far as knee on away DI goes, I dunno. When I was testing it on the spacies, I didn't try very hard once I realized how hard it was to get it to link. Also, since Uthrow uair connects from 123 on I don't think you really need knee, unless you're trying to go offstage but I just dthrow if I'm going offstage so far I can't get a dashing start.

However, I just tested it at 137 with every combination of dash/jump timing and did not get it to work, so I would be curious as to where you got your number on that from.
 

Kadano

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#27
However, I just tested it at 137 with every combination of dash/jump timing and did not get it to work, so I would be curious as to where you got your number on that from.
I just tested it again. You’re right, they can jump, fastfall or shine out at that percent. I’ll update it later.
 

gravy

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#28
Am I using the right notch for slight behind DI? I found a wierd range where I could hit falco at 76% with fsmash on slight behind. I could only connect if facing a specific direction and fsmashing a certain way (I think I faced and fsmashed to right. I don't get why that would happen, I even retested with different controllers.
 

Kadano

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#35
bruh when u gonna drop dat marf u throw follow ups @ Kadano Kadano
“Drop” is a nice understatement. It will take me ~300 hours of work to create a complete, precise and reliable chart for Fox and Falco. And I’m not a full-time employed Melee frame data researcher, so you’ll have to wait some more months or years. Unless someone else sacrifices that much of his free time before me.
 
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