cant beat floaty chars, especailly doc

[Timic83]

i feel im good against foxs, falcos and falcons, but i cant beat floaties like marth and doc. i cant dair chaingrab doc, and wobblings banned, what i do

 

[Finch]

Become a good ICs player! Learn to use your other moves well. I just throw out forward smash randomly and hope my fancy edgeguards work out but it's really up to you to come up with your own style.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Doc isn't floaty.

 

[Binx]

Who IS floaty? just Jigglypuff, Samus, Kirby, anyone else?

Fox Falco Falco are fast fallers

Ganon and Koopa are heavy

and the rest mid weight?

Doc is definitely more floaty than most characters, him and Marth both fall into a hard to combo weight for ICs as far as grabs are concerned, but yeah pretty much learn to do semi handoffs and semi wobbles, so grab tilt tilt dthrow regrab with Nana hope she fthrows or dthrows for a chance at a regrab otherwise try to followup with uair or bairs or something. Any time you can combo them off the edge put them there and pressure.

 

[Surreal]

^^^ You're mistaking floaty characters with light characters. Ganon is floatyish, and I don't think Kirby is floaty.

Sheik is also floaty, but IC's are really good against her.

A way around the dthrow dair on some characters is to have nana jump out more with dair, so it'll hit them towards you as opposed to away. Even if they intend to smash DI away (since they probably won't expect you to do it backwards), that will still put them in range of another grab.

You can also try dsmash during dthrow's animation as it adds more stun to it after they're thrown, which might allow you to regrab. Other than that, just go for a lot of baiting and try to land wd smash attacks on them. Try to stay below them as uair and wd utilt (a personal favorite of mine) are really good.

for edgeguarding Marth, there's not much you can do other than the lightshield edgehog trick, to ledgehop nair or get up and grab him (you'll probably grab him facing the stage so do uthrow reverse fsmash or dthrow bair). Depending on the stage it might be better to go for an usmash out of grab kill rather than fsmash or dsmash.


Against Doc, you would probably be better off killing him from the side since his recovery sucks. Don't give him space to throw pills at you, and just do baiting and switch things up (maybe throw out desynched ice blocks or blizzards). some safe approaches are wd jab/ftilt.

 

[Binx]

I forgot Luigi lol

The way I look at it, is that floatiness is characterized with a combination of fall speed and weight which puts them into different comboability catagories, Samus, Luigi, Jiggs and such are hard to combo because the get knocked really far and recover from attacks quickly, Marth is close to the catagory, its hard to link things on him unless he DIs poorly and he recovers quickly from attacks and has lots of range. So I dunno.

Against doc I dont like to try to kill off the side because our moves don't knock back at a low trajectory and they can force us off the edge with pills and recover easily. Its situational though.

Also samus is one of the heaviest characters in the entire game she can CC a falcon punch at 0 percent without being knocked down, so I most definitely am not considering only weight. I dont find Ganon to be floaty at all, he jumps fairly high but his fall speed isn't that slow. He obviously is very heavy so he recovers quickly.

 

[Surreal]

My bad. I was having a braindead moment and was thinking of something else. I usually tend to incorrectly add the component of how easily they're killed off the top for floatiness too (considering most floaty characters are easier to kill off the top).

Uhh according to smashwiki this is the average fall speed, if it helps (copypaste time). I'll just do the floatiest characters starting from Ness:

103% Ness
101% Dr. Mario
101% Mario
101% Mr. Game & Watch
098% Ice Climbers
097% Mewtwo
096% Kirby
096% Peach
095% Luigi
095% Samus
092% Zelda
086% Jigglypuff

Against doc that might just be my personal preference I guess, since I'd much rather try to edgeguard a doc than be underneath him if he doesn't die (I'm pretty sure his dair beats uair). I don't have much doc experience however. Does jab or ftilt cancel out his pills?

 

[Binx]

Yeah you can tilt his pills, I prefer to jump over them or iceblock them the majority of the time, doc cannot beat your uair if your space it properly, but he has good air control so its tough to do a ton out of it anyways.

 

[choknater]

protip ice blocks and blizzards are way more effective against any character that is not spacies/falcon, use those moves. they are already decent vs those characters, but try to imagine jigglypuff fighting against nana doing a blizzard and popo free to do whatever...........

she gets rapedddddd

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I still think blizzard is usually a bad idea against Puff.

She's very good at floating over it and waiting for it to end. While Popo can punish Puff around that general area, Puff is very mobile and can safely avoid most punishments by just pulling back and doing bair, which then often puts you in a bad position if you do chase after her; if you don't do anything with Popo, then Puff can just drop down and bair Nana afterwards.

There are other ways of using blizzard, of course. I think the risk/reward on most of them is vastly skewed in Puff's favor, though.

Ice blocks are good against Puff except when she nairs through them.

 

[choknater]

naw man naw! i do a sh ice block after blizzard, puff cant do anything to punish blizz! if she tries to come in horizontally she gets walled, if she tries to come in from above she gets uaired

its **** son

 

[Timic83]

ty for the help guys, however

for edgeguarding Marth, there's not much you can do other than the lightshield edgehog trick,

whats that

 

[Binx]

I dont think its really effective as ice climbers but what you do is roll towards the ledge and hold z while tilting your shield towards the ledge, when marth hits you you will fall off and edgeguard. With fast fallers it can work on marth whether he sweetspots of not, with ICs we fall slower so I don't feel its reliable, maybe I mess it up, but.... yeah thats all.

 

[choknater]

i thought that doesnt work with ics? for marth i just edge hog him and do normal getup stuff

 

[AshuRawRun]

Do many up smash, Up air and down throw to up smash, you don't let them touch the ground, that's what I do, I assume I got really good ICs against Marth since I can make close matchs with the best Europeans Marths (Strawhat and Makenshi).

Blizzard works too to get grabs, Ice block aren't really useful but they can help to distract the Marth, at low % you must crouch and smash after his Forward air...

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I always see people say ice blocks aren't good against Marth, but I really like them. For one thing, they can discourage him from camping. Also, run back to short hop turnaround ice block is a pretty good way of retreating.

 

[AshuRawRun]

Well, on the land, against a good Marth it doesn't help since he can break the Ice blocks pretty easily and he can jump to avoid them and stay safe since he's AFA range can be a good counter against Wavedash=>Jump=>Up air
But I like them in edgeguards.