Can People "Really" Change?

[Miggz]

Ok so I have yet another debate topic that I hope a lot of you will find worthy of discussing. This topic was inspired by a talk show I was listening to on the radio while at work. Ok so in your opinion, can people truly change? Its one thing to change on the outside, but what exactly is the secret to changing one's feelings inside? Let's take a smoker for example. Let's assume this person has been smoking for years, but finally found the will power to quit. Without a doubt its extremely impressive. In fact, my very father is a perfect example. He was a smoker for a few years. But when I was diagnosed with asthma he literally quit smoking the second the news reached his ears.

But I clearly remember asking him a few years ago if he still gets the urges to smoke. He honestly admitted that he misses smoking, but refuses to do it because of my health issues. After listening to that radio chat today and reflecting on this I couldn't help but ask myself "can people truly change?" Sure, my father has quit smoking...but inside...I suppose he's technically the same person who loves to smoke, correct? Someone on the radio said something like "just because a person breaks a habit (example, smoking) doesn't mean they are cured or actually are happy with their new choice. Do you, the debater, agree with this statement?

Before I express my opinion on the matter let me give one more example. Let's assume someone was jailed for murder. During his court case the individual was extremely regretful and promises to reform. Nonetheless, he is given many years in prison. While in jail the person displays a complete change in attitude. He's extremely polite, does what he is told, and wishes to live the rest of his life (jail or no jail) in peace. Despite this person's obvious change in attitude...it would be extremely naive to believe this person wouldn't commit another murder, correct?

Ok now for my opinion. I truly believe a person can change/alter their mindset, rather then their actual personality, if that makes any sense. In my eyes, a person's obsessions (smoking) or anger problems can be thought of as a type of energy. So when a person says they quit smoking that "obsessive energy" doesn't disappear, more like it morphs or transfers into something else. Perhaps the obsessions transfers to something such as food. The same thing with an angry/aggressive individual. When an angry person passes their anger management course, don't you ever wonder where that "anger energy" goes? Just like my previous example, I believe the same thing applies to anger...it gets transferred to something else like sports or weight lifting, rather then disappear altogether.

So in a nutshell, I think an obsessive person can get over certain obsessions, but I think there will always be new obsessions in some shape or form and degree, meaning the person will always be an obsessive person. Keep in mind these obsessions can change dramatically in seriousness, but they would probably count as obsessions nonetheless. An angry person will probably always be an angry/aggressive person, but they simply channel it to something else, or perhaps express that anger when he or she are alone.

To conclude, I feel a person can alter their mindset to better channel their problem. But at the end of the day, I don't think people can 100% change.

Keep in mind that I am looking forward to your views.

Now my friends, let us debate!

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

Now, can a 'person' go and 'change' what they consider'themselves'?

I don't think so. I don't think a person can change who they 'are'. We live in a society where its not discouraged to hide who you truely are, but it is a valued standard. Me, if I was truely 'myself' I would be unemployed, constantly harrased publicly, and probably not get along very well socially. If you don't fit into the groups at school, you get harrased, when you graduate if you dont 'grow up' you don't fit in with your co-workers, when you're old, if you don't become senile and grumpy, you're a crazy old bat.

What I'm saying is, is there is a mold you must crush yourself into to be successful in life. It's as simple as that!

Does anyone fit into this mold? No. Instead they take anti-depressants to chemically confuse their brains into believing they are in an acceptable life situation.

The changes you associate people with 'changing thier lives', is them changing the lie they must hide behind because it has become too difficult to go on behind their previous lie, or the new lie is more profitable or convenient for the person to mask themselves with.

Quitting smoking? Smoking is not even a part of someones personality. Perhaps the choice to smoke was influenced by something regarding the personality, but smoking is as close to personality to choosing what you want to eat that day. Quitting smoking is like saying 'my doctor says i need to stop getting fast food because of my blood pressure'. Someone convicted of murder could consider himself to have changed, when really, he's realizing who he really is.

 

[Miggz]

We live in a society where its not discouraged to hide who you truely are, but it is a valued standard.

I somewhat disagree with this. I feel we still live in a society where we are still discouraging some individuals from being who they truly are. If society as a whole didn't "discourage" or "hide" who we truely are then wouldn't there be no such thing as a closeted homosexual? Gay people who are hiding their true self do so because of discouragement and shame.

Smoking is not even a part of someones personality.

Smoking can indeed be part of one's personality. Why do you think people become aggressive when someone hides their cigarettes? Regardless, smoking without a doubt "alters" one's personality. Some people, for example, feel relaxed when they do it. So at the end of the day, I strongly feel its connected.

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

I somewhat disagree with this. I feel we still live in a society where we are still discouraging some individuals from being who they truly are. If society as a whole didn't "discourage" or "hide" who we truely are then wouldn't there be no such thing as a closeted homosexual? Gay people who are hiding their true self do so because of discouragement and shame.
This discouragement is through shame on something that is not shameful. And like the homosexuals who are so shamed into becoming 'closet homosexuals' many people live 'closet lifestyles', truely afraid of who they are. Me, I'm still afraid of who I truely am, and also rarely show myself entirely. I have to change how I act to not give away who I truely am.


Smoking can indeed be part of one's personality. Why do you think people become aggressive when someone hides their cigarettes? Regardless, smoking without a doubt "alters" one's personality. Some people, for example, feel relaxed when they do it. So at the end of the day, I strongly feel its connected.
Ironically, I smoked for a while. Smoking is not really a personality trait unless you are applying for internet dating
Kidding, but in all reality, it is not a personality trait. What makes that the case is, is when you are smoking, you are getting hit with addictives that your body takes in and becomes used to. When it is taken away, your body begins to go into withdrawl, and you 'need' a ciggerette. Perhaps something in your personality is REACTING to the ciggerette, but the actual process of smoking is no less a personality trait as is playing a game of basketball.

People can't change who they ARE, but they can change who others PERCEIVE them to be.

Nicotine is a stimulant that causes us to temporarily feel good or energized. If you are depressed, it can provide a short boost. It also causes the release of natural chemicals in our brain called beta-endorphins. These chemicals cause us to feel more alert and calm. The problem is that nicotine isn't stored in the body so these effects last only a few minutes. We need to absorb more and more nicotine to make the effects last.

Source

 

[Marc]

Seems like we are discussing several things at once.

Personality is quite stable once adulthood has been reached. Certain traits are expressed less as people get older, but you often find that people who are for example more aggressive than their peers at age 20, are still more aggressive at age 40, even if the entire group has gotten less aggressive (rank order stability). I can't imagine a complete personality change under normal circumstances.

Behaviour can be changed, obviously, and this is what society really needs from people who don't fit in.

As for addiction... The physical effects of quitting a drug wear off over time, but there's always the anticipated pleasure of taking a drug. For chronic addicts the perceived pleasure often is out of proportion with the pleasure that is actually gotten from taking the drug. I think anyone can quit a drug if they're motivated to do so, but it's better to never get addicted in the first place. Chances are you'll keep missing it for the rest of your life.

 

[|RK|]

Can we change who we are? The answer, quite simply, is no.

Let's see here, shall we? The result of a change in outward behavior is something on the inside. If you, for example, dislike harming others, and your son is diagnosed with asthma, don't you stop smoking to protect others? Every action that you make is predetermined (figurative) by a preexisting trait in character. These traits cause visible outward change, but leaves the person the same.

Many people might argue the experience gained thorough religion is a true change, on the inside, but this is not possible. All that simply happens is that the person changes outwardly because of something that was already on the inside.

Some people may argue the changes that come with addiction to certain drugs, but this change is due to the drug itself, and not the person. Let's clarify. If you change your outward behavior because of an addiction, this was because of your inward flaw that causes you to try the drug in the first place. Everything is truly a chain reaction, and the other inward trait is your own willpower to quit the addiction. On the inside, you still happen to be the same person you always were, but an outward influence has created an inward set of rules that an inward trait causes you to follow.

Everything is a chain reaction. Outward changes can cause rules within you to change. For example if you've been in prison so long, you'll do anything to get out, even suicide. You aren't that type of person, but the outward pressure has caused new rules to suppress certain character traits. There is no real change, you are still the same on the inside, but your situation can suppress rules. Sometimes rules are suppressed for longer periods of time, like in religion, but certain circumstances can cause a new ruleset to be written. This law applies to everything and anything.

There is no true inner change.

(I consider change as something permanent, not something that cna be reversed or re-written depending on the situation, so bear with me here.)

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

Yeah,

Saying smoking is a trait of your personality is like saying me walking down a hallway is a personality trait.

Smoking is an action, just as walking is, and not a trait of ones personality.
Your personality can change your actions.
You're actions are based off of an enviornment and situation.
If the situation changes, the reaction to the enviornment can change based off of the unchanged personality.

The perception of ones rough idea, as an observer, could put off the image that this is infact, someone changing who they are.. but it is who they are that already predetermined the outcome of the reaction to the new situation and/or enviornment.

Sorry to almost say that as if it were a math problem, but I love/relate best with math.

A Personality is a pure, unchangable set.

 

[|RK|]

I mean addiction to smoking, Ryan-kun.

Otherwise even I'd ignore my post :/

 

[KrazyGlue]

KG is back with a bang! Glad to be able to debate in the PG again!

Ok, first of all, I need some clarification, Miggz.

By someone changing, you mean voluntarily changing, right? Because some people undergo complete changes when they suffer brain damage.

Here's an example (look under the "case report" section): http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/48/1/67


If you mean voluntarily, I would have to say no. A person can certainly have completely different behavior, but they will always still have thoughts of their old behavior.

Then again, it's all speculation, as there is no real way to tell what someone is thinking.

 

[Miggz]

KG is back with a bang! Glad to be able to debate in the PG again!

Ok, first of all, I need some clarification, Miggz.

By someone changing, you mean voluntarily changing, right? Because some people undergo complete changes when they suffer brain damage.

Here's an example (look under the "case report" section): http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/48/1/67


If you mean voluntarily, I would have to say no. A person can certainly have completely different behavior, but they will always still have thoughts of their old behavior.

Then again, it's all speculation, as there is no real way to tell what someone is thinking.

Hey buddy. Welcome back.

Oh and yes, I do mean voluntary changing.

 

[Hooblah2u2]

I believe (and have seen) people can make complete transformations. Just take Brian Welch for example.
You can see how his life completely makes a turn around: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf5WYigZHME

 

[pacmansays]

Yes.

I know this from first hand experience.

I did something once, something horrible that only in guilt as time went on when at the moment I felt it was good.

Now, I'd never do something like that, I couldn't live with myself if I did.

And I don't just mean people can just change their behaviour (watch Clockwork Orange or read it for a good insight into this debate) but sometimes I think people generally change in their core.

This happens naturally as we go on with life: I don't share all the same views I did a year ago and don't believe the same things morally either. I'm fine with incest to an extent (though i still find it icky), I'm no longer agnostic, I like music I used to hate, I like the occasional night of getting drunk when I used to avoid it totally and so forth.

Can we change by choice? Kinda: I think once we've made the decision we can freely change, but I don't think the desire to change was a choice in itself

 

[CRASHiC]

To some degree, yes, however there are many incidents where a person can not reverse their situation fully. Alcoholism, once obtained, stays with a person for life, and is a bitter struggle to stay sober. Those who suffer from pedophilia disorders have been proven to not be able to recover from their situation, and many had a traumatic childhood experience that is the source of their perverse sexual mind. Many pedophilias have pleaded the judge for castration in court, essentially asking for a higher punishment.

There are certain things that do not change in a human's behavior, and our either built when they are young and their mind is developing, or seem to be born traits. The number of homosexuals in the world has not changed since Kensky gave his report on the male sexual mind in the late 40s. Why? Because in some ways, people never change. What can change our, in most cases, society impressions. Racism has gradually faded from society because society has put a larger and larger bad conetation on the act. Not to say that we can't change habits outside of our society, as their were people fighting for the removal of slavery, black and women voting rights, and many other causes long before society as a whole deemed these issues important. An individual can come to see something in his world as unjust, and change his beliefs and actions based on this.

"By the time we are 40, our cells have completely changed several times over, and yet we remain mostly ourself" - Waking Life

 

[pacmansays]

To some degree, yes, however there are many incidents where a person can not reverse their situation fully. Alcoholism, once obtained, stays with a person for life, and is a bitter struggle to stay sober.

I don't believe this example entirely, in some cases yes but this shows they are still alcoholic but just resisting drinking. My parents were once alcoholics and they both got sick and so couldn't drink and so just adjusted. They still drink occasionally but its not some battle for them to stay sober