Can IASA Frames on aerials solve the landing lag issue?

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

*Note: IASA=Interrupt As Soon As*

I was thinking about the absense of L-Canceling in Smash 4(as far as we know), and not only that, the potential positives and negatives about it's inclusion, and thought--would having frames on the aerials that can be canceled(or sped up exponentially) by inputting another action, whether it be a jab, dash, jump etc., solve the issue with landing lag on attacks?

With L-Canceling, your actions are potentially non committal as you can perform attacks from a neutral position. You can do a Nair and cancel the aerial without commiting to another option, which can potentially shut down many options, but, if you had to cancel the landing lag through another action it promotes more offensive combat while simultaneously enforcing proactive thinking.

Though implementing something like this May prove to be more difficult than allowing universal options to speed up aerial landing, this method allows for specific tailoring to each characters aerials to balance out characters strenghts.

For example, if Link's Dair had 40 frames of landing lag, using an L-Cancel engine in Melee would cut the landing lag to 20 frames. Now, with the IASA, the landing lag is still. 40 frames, but the lag from the aerial can be be cancelled as soon as frame 25. While the move has more lag time, it is balanced based on the buffs it has receive. Considering that the Down Air has a spike and can bounce on hit even during a fast fall, giving the aerial less landing wouldn't be justifiable. Or let's say his Fair has 15 frames of landing lag, the lag can be interrupted at frame 7, a speed slightly faster than a normal L-cancel. Why? Because a SH Fair for link can be used for an offensive tool, and since there are so many characters who can approach better than Link, having a fast Fair will help him be more offensive and allow stronger committal shield pressure.

What about a character like Little Mac? You would think have to much strength since he will have aerial game, but since his aerial attacks do little to no knockback or strength his aerials would primarily be used to set up an approach on the ground in addition to minimalizing the IASA frames on his aerials in particular.

I honestly wouldn't mind L-Canceling returning, but I feel like having IASA frames on aerials is a great way to replicate it without having to worry about having to press additional buttons.

Also, having more IASA frames on grounded attacks may lead to more ground combat option.

 

[LancerStaff]

Who said it was an issue?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Who said it was an issue?

Please don't start.

 

[<π]

Please don't start.

I was going to post the same thing. Landing lag isn't an issue. Its something you have to commit to if you are going to use certain aerials as lateral zoning tools and grounded combo starters.

IASA frames for aerials (I believe already are there) would do the exact same thing as your returning you directly to neutral. Any action can interrupt IASA frames, just like any action can interrupt your neutral animation.

Neat idea though.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

IASA frames for aerials (I believe already are there)

They are, if the research in this thread is any indication. When I was first looking for the landing lag on Link's Dair I kept coming up with at least 40 frames of landing lag. However @JamietheAuraUser showed me a clip where he can be seen interrupting the landing lag after frame 32. Brawl had this feature too (for some characters?).

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I was going to post the same thing. Landing lag isn't an issue. Its something you have to commit to if you are going to use certain aerials as lateral zoning tools and grounded combo starters.

IASA frames for aerials (I believe already are there) would do the exact same thing as your returning you directly to neutral. Any action can interrupt IASA frames, just like any action can interrupt your neutral animation.

Neat idea though.

The gist of the idea is to just add an abundance of IASA frames and tailoring specific ones too allow aerials to function in a specific manner. I know there is a level of commitment to using an aerial, but by using the IASA frames you have the option to act before you hit neutral position, but in exchange you are committing to an action. Like if you baited an SH Aerial with Marth to a tipper F-smash. You could interrupt the lag with an F-smash, but it's a hard commitment, and there is always the possibility of the opponent defending the attack. You move away, but it would mess up your spacing.

I'm not exactly sure if it works like this already, but I'm just suggesting taking the same idea and tweaking it a bit.

Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT: As far as returning to a neutral position, there will always be an inherent risk for exploring the method with the most options (neutral) vs. a committed action (moving, attacking, jumping, etc.). Commiting to a specific action limits your options in some way, but you have momentum. If you return to neutral (the slower option), you lose momentum, but gain a vast amount of options and stage control. In Melee, being able to excessively zone out with access to both aerial and neutral options, it made the game amazing, but also gave it the potential to be a non-committal game. In Brawl, characters with Aerial options basically dominated with use of a single aerial to zone out, and the lack of offensive options and inability to punish a defending player (on top of other issues) made the game feel kind of shallow in gameplay. I feel like tailoring IASA frames for certain attacks will not only balance the combat, but work well in smash 4's engine given the abundance of freeze frames on attacks, which can be clear IASA indicators for attacks; you can naturally learn the rhythm of your character visually.

 

[LancerStaff]

Please don't start.

I'm sorry, but that's not how it works.

"Grounds" and aerials need to be equal in some fashion for the characters to be balanced, end of story. Without balance, there's no balance.

Question: What would you do to make ground-based characters, let's say Mac, work in Melee?

 

[<π]

I understand... I think it is because I was a melee samus and I couldn't just safely SHFFL my aerials as an approach option because she moves way to slow. They were a huge commitment in a game about not committing. Even after playing melee for 3 or 4 years straight I've never had this NEED to use aerials as an approach option. In melee we didn't have to commit to a lot and I think that is where a lot of the disconnect comes from with smash 4. Some things SHOULD be unsafe. Some things SHOULD be punishable. I think that adds depth to the game, it makes you have to think about what happens next. You should have to make a serious commit to every choices you make. Because that makes room for counter play.

All that said I can't imagine there won't be characters that are amazing against people in shields while coming down from the air. (I think sheik handled shields really well in brawl) But there will be others who should NEVER approach from the air (like brawl gannondorf or brawl zelda)
Brawl sheik and a slew of other characters had almost zero landing lag on a lot of their aerials. but those same moves were normally very low reward too... except metaknight, lol.

 

[<π]

I'm sorry, but that's not how it works.

"Grounds" and aerials need to be equal in some fashion for the characters to be balanced, end of story. Without balance, there's no balance.

Question: What would you do to make ground-based characters, let's say Mac, work in Melee?

Yeah that's the other thing I wanted to say. Grounded moves should be better on the ground than aerials. Sheik's air game was crazy fast. But her ground game had even less end lag. Making aerials superior to ground moves (and thats what crazy low lag times would do) makes them obsolete. Aerials can and SHOULD have a purpose, but it shouldn't be a go to grounded option.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah that's the other thing I wanted to say. Grounded moves should be better on the ground than aerials. Sheik's air game was crazy fast. But her ground game had even less end lag. Making aerials superior to ground moves (and thats what crazy low lag times would do) makes them obsolete. Aerials can and SHOULD have a purpose, but it shouldn't be a go to grounded option.

I don't mind individual characters having aerials more suited for X over grounded attacks, but it shouldn't be so overcentralizing as it was in Melee. L-canceling obviously wasn't intended to be used the way it was, and that's what led to F/F/S in Melee.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Yeah that's the other thing I wanted to say. Grounded moves should be better on the ground than aerials. Sheik's air game was crazy fast. But her ground game had even less end lag. Making aerials superior to ground moves (and thats what crazy low lag times would do) makes them obsolete. Aerials can and SHOULD have a purpose, but it shouldn't be a go to grounded option.

The way to fix this isn't to make aerials less effective, but rather to give characters better ground moves. Dash attacks are across all games rarely used because they are often easily telegraphed and have long endlag. Sakurai gave characters amazing aerials that usually outclass all of their ground moves. Look at the most famous example, Marth's Fair. Very fast overall, with hitboxes that cover a huge area. Sounds like a great move right? Well it is, both in Melee and Brawl. Now compare that to his Ftilt which is very similar, but starts from the bottom and is slower. Bummer. L-Cancelling is just an enabler. If Sakurai made bad attacks, then no amount of reduced landing lag would change anything.

I don't mind individual characters having aerials more suited for X over grounded attacks, but it shouldn't be so overcentralizing as it was in Melee. L-canceling obviously wasn't intended to be used the way it was, and that's what led to F/F/S in Melee.

How much have you honestly played Brawl? That game was aerial focused too. The reason why you can read above. Look at characters like Kirby, Toon Link and Wolf, who have an enormous part of their metagame centralised around spamming their back aerial. Wolf in particular has a back aerial that outclasses his other moves so much it makes me think it was intentional. His back aerial starts lightning fast, has short cooldown, some disjoint, extremely long range for a melee attack and a high enough base knockback to make it borderline unpunishable on hit regardless of percent and even functions as a solid KO move if kept fresh. How many of Wolf's other attacks possess all of those boons? Spoilers: None.

Sakurai needs to make characters like Roy. In Melee Roy was only really known for 4 moves: Fair, Dtilt, FSmash and SideB. Two of those are only usable on the ground (the former being his safest move as well thanks to its very early IASA) and 1 is most effective on the ground.

 

[LancerStaff]

The way to fix this isn't to make aerials less effective, but rather to give characters better ground moves. Dash attacks are across all games rarely used because they are often easily telegraphed and have long endlag. Sakurai gave characters amazing aerials that usually outclass all of their ground moves. Look at the most famous example, Marth's Fair. Very fast overall, with hitboxes that cover a huge area. Sounds like a great move right? Well it is, both in Melee and Brawl. Now compare that to his Ftilt which is very similar, but starts from the bottom and is slower. Bummer. L-Cancelling is just an enabler. If Sakurai made bad attacks, then no amount of reduced landing lag would change anything.


How much have you honestly played Brawl? That game was aerial focused too. The reason why you can read above. Look at characters like Kirby, Toon Link and Wolf, who have an enormous part of their metagame centralised around spamming their back aerial. Wolf in particular has a back aerial that outclasses his other moves so much it makes me think it was intentional. His back aerial starts lightning fast, has short cooldown, some disjoint, extremely long range for a melee attack and a high enough base knockback to make it borderline unpunishable on hit regardless of percent and even functions as a solid KO move if kept fresh. How many of Wolf's other attacks possess all of those boons? Spoilers: None.

Sakurai needs to make characters like Roy. In Melee Roy was only really known for 4 moves: Fair, Dtilt, FSmash and SideB. Two of those are only usable on the ground (the former being his safest move as well thanks to it's very early IASA) and 1 is most effective on the ground.

Wrong. The game would be a twitch-fest if grounds were buffed to Melee aerial level. Aerials had to be nerf for it to be playable. Marth losing a significant amount of utility on his fair is a nitpick.

You act as if I especially prefer Brawl.

Wasn't Roy horrible?

 

[<π]

Roy was really bad though, the fact that two of his only good moves are grounded kinds of hints at that.

I'd argue that there are a TON of strong ground moves espeacially in brawl. D3 ftilt and dtilt, Sheik ftilt and utilt are amazing and jab, Meta knight had a great ground moveset. Link had a strong ground game with fsmash and ftilt. Marth with his dtilt and fsmash threat. Snake was primarily a ground character and did amazingly well in the series. bowser with ftilt jab and his upB. DK with his tilts and DownB.

All that said wolf had a really solid ground game too. his ftilt and dtilt were amazing. his Fsmash was easily my favorite fsmash in the game. If he didn't get chain grabbed so bad I might of ended up maining him instead of sheik.

SO yeah some characters have amazing air games, but there are a lot who do very well on the ground.

Specifically talking baout your marth example. ftilt IS a great move it has amazing coverage. giving it end lag like fair would make it broken, and that is why fair is broken. its very fast super safe zoning tool that you can be approach with. IMO you shouldn't be able to approach with a zoning tool, that's just too much power.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

You act as if I especially prefer Brawl.

Wasn't Roy horrible?

No, I act as if you are ignorant of the gameplay of the entire Smash Bros series. A lot of people look straight to Melee and in some very rare cases Smash 64, as their primary argument for the prevalence of aerial gameplay. The mechanics of these two games give more power to aerial attacks yes, but Brawl was no different, despite its absence of Z/L-Cancelling. For what it's worth, I don't see any problem with Smash being different from traditional fighters.

Yes. More on that below.

Roy was really bad though, the fact that two of his only good moves are grounded kinds of hints at that.

Specifically talking about your marth example. ftilt IS a great move it has amazing coverage. giving it end lag like fair would make it broken, and that is why fair is broken. its very fast super safe zoning tool that you can be approach with. IMO you shouldn't be able to approach with a zoning tool, that's just too much power.

You said yourself that Samus had a poor SHFFL game. She's high tier. I think my point is going over everyone's heads here. I'll say it one last time. AERIALS ARE USUALLY THE BEST MOVES BECAUSE THEY WERE DESIGNED THAT WAY. Roy isn't bad because his best moves are ground moves. He's bad because he has few good moves to begin with lol. Also he's easy to combo, has poor recovery, a dumb sourspot, etc etc

See? This is what I mean. Sakurai could have made Marth's Fair have similar endlag to Ftilt, or Ftilt have similar endlag to Fair. But he didn't. He instead decided to make Marth's Fair a superior attack. Ground and air will only balanced when Sakurai decides to make them that way.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, I act as if you are ignorant of the gameplay of the entire Smash Bros series. A lot of people look straight to Melee and in some very rare cases Smash 64, as their primary argument for the prevalence of aerial gameplay. The mechanics of these two games give more power to aerial attacks yes, but Brawl was no different, despite its absence of Z/L-Cancelling. For what it's worth, I don't see any problem with Smash being different from traditional fighters.

Yes. More on that below.

You said yourself that Samus had a poor SHFFL game. She's high tier. I think my point is going over everyone's heads here. I'll say it one last time. AERIALS ARE USUALLY THE BEST MOVES BECAUSE THEY WERE DESIGNED THAT WAY. Roy isn't bad because his best moves are ground moves. He's bad because he has few good moves to begin with lol. Also he's easy to combo, has poor recovery, a dumb sourspot, etc etc

See? This is what I mean. Sakurai could have made Marth's Fair have similar endlag to Ftilt, or Ftilt have similar endlag to Fair. But he didn't. He instead decided to make Marth's Fair a superior attack. Ground and air will only balanced when Sakurai decides to make them that way.

I'm sorry you can't accept that the game is going to be different this time.

Aerials weren't designed to be the best moves in Melee and 64 because L-canceling was considered to be the exception, not the norm. In Brawl, Sakurai was experimenting with ways to make the more casual player fight in the air, not particularlly thinking about the balance. Why should aerials be more powerful then grounds in SSB4, anyway? Just because the previous games did?

And now they will, just overall. Only looking at one character who deserved a nerf isn't the best way to determine that. Wait until the game comes out before you make this kind of judgement.

 

[Raijinken]

Interrupts and cancels are but one of many options for balancing aerials without outright reducing endlag and landing lag. However, especially given Mac and how the game seems to be trying to make grounded play a valid option, I don't think this is a globally necessary adjustment.

 

[<π]

You said yourself that Samus had a poor SHFFL game. She's high tier. I think my point is going over everyone's heads here. I'll say it one last time. AERIALS ARE USUALLY THE BEST MOVES BECAUSE THEY WERE DESIGNED THAT WAY. Roy isn't bad because his best moves are ground moves. He's bad because he has few good moves to begin with lol. Also he's easy to combo, has poor recovery, a dumb sourspot, etc etc.

I guess if that's your point... we agree then.

When I made my post I thought your point was "Sakurai doesn't need to nerf aerials but buff ground moves.". So all of what I said was kind of attacking that point because I don't agree with it.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I'm sorry you can't accept that the game is going to be different this time.

And now they will, just overall. Only looking at one character who deserved a nerf isn't the best way to determine that. Wait until the game comes out before you make this kind of judgement.

How you got that out of my posts is anyone's guess. If the game is different, so be it. That's what I was expecting. If I were to write it off because it may not be the same, I wouldn't even consider buying it and I wouldn't participate in discussion here on Smashboards because the series may as well be dead to me. But it isn't. You just made that assumption.

I'm sorry for using well-known examples to back up my argument. I forgot that isn't allowed here. I could give other examples, but then I'd just sound like a broken record. I'd rather just use one.

 

[LancerStaff]

How you got that out of my posts is anyone's guess. If the game is different, so be it. That's what I was expecting. If I were to write it off because it may not be the same, I wouldn't even consider buying it and I wouldn't participate in discussion here on Smashboards because the series may as well be dead to me. But it isn't. You just made that assumption.

I'm sorry for using well-known examples to back up my argument. I forgot that isn't allowed here. I could give other examples, but then I'd just sound like a broken record. I'd rather just use one.

"No, I act as if you are ignorant of the gameplay of the entire Smash Bros series. A lot of people look straight to Melee and in some very rare cases Smash 64, as their primary argument for the prevalence of aerial gameplay. The mechanics of these two games give more power to aerial attacks yes, but Brawl was no different, despite its absence of Z/L-Cancelling. For what it's worth, I don't see any problem with Smash being different from traditional fighters."

You didn't exactly sound happy about the change.

Your example is associated with whining and screams of Brawl bias. It's hard not to assume at this point.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd not call it "Brawl Bias" when it is a factual observation of how the three past games worked. Aerials give you more mobility, more flexibility, and unless you want a specific knockback property (fortunately, there is not yet such thing as an aerial Smash attack so ground still has SOMETHING going for it), are better in general for starting and ending combos to rack damage or kill an opponent in the majority of scenarios.

I've said it before in several threads, and practically said it earlier: Air has been strong, and if we want the whole roster to be viable (some people may not want that, and I respect but disagree with their preferences), ground will have to be made viable relative to air, or some characters will have to be patched repeatedly post-release (or, have significantly changed since the demos we've seen) in order to be aerially viable. There are two ways to make the ground to air power balance more fair towards ground: buff ground, or nerf air. If ground is buffed too much, the game probably becomes more lethal, and less accessible, which is unlikely given Sakurai's stance. The remaining option is to tweak aerials such that they are not universally the preferred approach. It won't kill anyone to have to initiate on the ground, we have pivot tilts, running grabs, and good 'ol dash attacks. Or if it does get people killed too much, maybe the community will learn a way to quickly approach on the ground without overcommitting in ways they don't want to.

Landing lag on aerials is equivalent to animation lag on dash attacks. If you make a bad move at the time, don't blame the game for having too much lag, blame yourself for making a bad play.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

"No, I act as if you are ignorant of the gameplay of the entire Smash Bros series. A lot of people look straight to Melee and in some very rare cases Smash 64, as their primary argument for the prevalence of aerial gameplay. The mechanics of these two games give more power to aerial attacks yes, but Brawl was no different, despite its absence of Z/L-Cancelling. For what it's worth, I don't see any problem with Smash being different from traditional fighters."

You didn't exactly sound happy about the change.

Your example is associated with whining and screams of Brawl bias. It's hard not to assume at this point.

We still don't even know if their has been a change at all, stop acting like the game is out already. For all we know, it could end up being the same. I'm keeping all possibilities on the table, you're adamant that the game will be a certain way.

Notice the italicised quote? I said I "don't see any problem" with it being the same. I did NOT say the game should have or has to have an aerial focus, I was saying that I don't see why you believe that breaking the formula is inherently flawed. The aerial game is part of what makes the first 3 iterations unique. If that is taken away, fine. If it isn't, fine. If you dislike aerial combat, that's your choice. I'm happy either way.

I am not whining about the differences between Melee and Brawl. If I was I'd be saying "aw no gaiz Marth's sword is as tiny as a twig he wields a knife nao". I am comparing the way one of Marth's attacks functions to another one of his attacks. Said attacks may have been tweaked a little in frames and hitbox size, yes, but they still primarily work the same way in both games.

Aerials give you more mobility

How did I not think of this?

Landing lag on aerials is equivalent to animation lag on dash attacks. If you make a bad move at the time, don't blame the game for having too much lag, blame yourself for making a bad play.

I agree with this sentiment, but I wish to highlight something. The thing is, aerial attack landing lag can be avoided by not landing during the move or landing during autocancel frames. A ground move's endlag cannot be avoided or reduced, without IASA. This is why people often opt to not use laggy dash attacks (note: there are useful dash attacks, like Falco's). Whilst "situational" things do exist, on the whole, players will try to use their best moves as much as possible. Even at bottom level play where people just spam Final Cutter/Stone, they are still following this principle. They see these attacks as most useful (even if they actually aren't), so they use them persistently over their other options.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if someone uses a "bad" move in a situation where they were better off not using it, then that's their fault for doing something sub-optimal. However, the developers are the ones responsible for moves being outclassed by other moves. We as players, just do what works best for us.

 

[<π]

Just wanted to jump in a say if you are "auto canceling" a move it has already gone though its full animation and all (or in some cases nearly all) of its end lag.
As opposed to something like a SHFFLC aerial which can often times be less than a tenth of a moves full duration.

 

[LancerStaff]

We still don't even know if their has been a change at all, stop acting like the game is out already. For all we know, it could end up being the same. I'm keeping all possibilities on the table, you're adamant that the game will be a certain way.

Notice the italicised quote? I said I "don't see any problem" with it being the same. I did NOT say the game should have or has to have an aerial focus, I was saying that I don't see why you believe that breaking the formula is inherently flawed. The aerial game is part of what makes the first 3 iterations unique. If that is taken away, fine. If it isn't, fine. If you dislike aerial combat, that's your choice. I'm happy either way.

I am not whining about the differences between Melee and Brawl. If I was I'd be saying "aw no gaiz Marth's sword is as tiny as a twig he wields a knife nao". I am comparing the way one of Marth's attacks functions to another one of his attacks. Said attacks may have been tweaked a little in frames and hitbox size, yes, but they still primarily work the same way in both games.

How did I not think of this?

I agree with this sentiment, but I wish to highlight something. The thing is, aerial attack landing lag can be avoided by not landing during the move or landing during autocancel frames. A ground move's endlag cannot be avoided or reduced, without IASA. This is why people often opt to not use laggy dash attacks (note: there are useful dash attacks, like Falco's). Whilst "situational" things do exist, on the whole, players will try to use their best moves as much as possible. Even at bottom level play where people just spam Final Cutter/Stone, they are still following this principle. They see these attacks as most useful (even if they actually aren't), so they use them persistently over their other options.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if someone uses a "bad" move in a situation where they were better off not using it, then that's their fault for doing something sub-optimal. However, the developers are the ones responsible for moves being outclassed by other moves. We as players, just do what works best for us.

Almost every, little, thing shown to us points to a more ground-centered game. I don't see them changing all this stuff for demos and videos for Sakurai to go "Oopsie, aerials are good enough" and change it back, do you?

What the heck are you talking about? Never said anything about changing the formula being bad. I think it's completely necessary. I specifically want air and ground to have some semblance of balance.

I can see that now, I just said that I assumed you were whining about the change because basically everybody talking about it is going "Mar mar ruined = no buy."

 

[Raijinken]

I agree with this sentiment, but I wish to highlight something. The thing is, aerial attack landing lag can be avoided by not landing during the move or landing during autocancel frames. A ground move's endlag cannot be avoided or reduced, without IASA. This is why people often opt to not use laggy dash attacks (note: there are useful dash attacks, like Falco's). Whilst "situational" things do exist, on the whole, players will try to use their best moves as much as possible. Even at bottom level play where people just spam Final Cutter/Stone, they are still following this principle. They see these attacks as most useful (even if they actually aren't), so they use them persistently over their other options.

Good points. I've been a Marth main for too long, I forget there are useful initiating dash attacks sometimes. Sheik's also springs to mind. It should be noted, though, that these are typically the exceptions rather than the rule. Even the better dash attacks, though, give you one option: go through with the dash attack. Aerials give you more leeway to change attacks, double-jump, simply fall and roll/wavedash/run away, etc. Granted, options such as DACUS and dashsmashing can improve your grounded approach (like pivot tilts likely will in Smash4), but unless those become less laggy and shield/dodge-punishable, they'll still be outclassed by aerial approaches.

Also, I like the TVTropes link, fortunately I was on that very page the other day and will not fall into the vortex tonight.

I can see that now, I just said that I assumed you were whining about the change because basically everybody talking about it is going "Mar mar ruined = no buy."

Gotta say, if Marth was going to play exactly like he has in the past two games, I was probably going to drop him for more interesting characters finally. But being forced to fight differently keeps him on my considered main list. Plus, Robin alone makes the game a buy =D

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Almost every, little, thing shown to us points to a more ground-centered game. I don't see them changing all this stuff for demos and videos for Sakurai to go "Oopsie, aerials are good enough" and change it back, do you?

What the heck are you talking about? Never said anything about changing the formula being bad. I think it's completely necessary. I specifically want air and ground to have some semblance of balance.

I can see that now, I just said that I assumed you were whining about the change because basically everybody talking about it is going "Mar mar ruined = no buy."

Ground does seem to be more useful this time around, yes. But do I think the game will be ground-focused overall? I have no idea. My point is ground may be buffed, but until people have the game in their hands, forming a metagame is impossible. There is so much we can grasp of "optimal play" from a demo with somewhat limited access.

They should be balanced, yes. I just feel that unless proven otherwise (which is certainly possible, I may be an asshole but I am capable of backing down) a simple buff/nerf to ground/air likely won't be enough to balance it. Sakurai needs to heavily consider the design of characters and their attacks. The most extreme thing he could do is to redesign Smash as a whole since a radically different gameplay structure could lead to a balance between the two, however I think at this point it's clear that people love Smash for being Smash. But hey, maybe he's got this under control, not like I'd know.

Trust me, I got tired of the Marth complaints too. For the record, I don't play Marth because I don't like his tipper mechanic (no, really). So if my avatar mislead you sorry I guess?

 

[<π]

I don't know about melee. But brawl sheik's dash attack was a long range punishing tool. at 5 frames before the hit box it covered a TON of distance so... wiffed aerial? dash attack. baited zoning tool? dash attack. Baited spot dodge or roll? Go ahead guess. At least that's how I used it.

Some other successful sheik's like Ed would guess when people would shield drop and use dash attack as a high risk approach. I imagine every character had uses for their dash attacks. For sonics fox and Meta knights it was a safe poke tool you could use on shield and end up behind them. For snake it was a kill option. And I don't know if my memory is serving me right here but I swear Ike was spacing on a lot of characters sheild's with dash attack.

Also character like sheik (and I'm guessing Lil Mac will be like this too) were GREAT at dashing into an aerial opponent and shielding (she had such a short dash animation) forcing the opponent to quickly chose between getting shield grabbed since their spacing was destroyed or using their double jump (or I guess invul up B to beat a grab option on land)

characters with good lateral space control like falco and toon link also had a huge say in how people were allowed to approach them from the air. So even if aerials stayed consistent with brawl I this there are ways to make them a little less favorable.

 

[JV5Chris]

The question is not if IASA frames can help, it's if their properties are reasonably tuned for each move, what actions they can be canceled with in this new game, and on an even deeper level, how much shield knockback pressure scales up with stronger attacks.

I know these debates revolve almost exclusively around attack power vs required landing lag as some sort of straightforward risk vs reward equation, but realistically there are a lot more move attributes and factors at play that contribute to balence.

 

[RODO]

I think a good way they could balance the ground and air game is to give grounded characters strong anti-air moves from the ground. That way they could fend off characters with good aerials while still playing grounded.

 

[HeavyLobster]

(fortunately, there is not yet such thing as an aerial Smash attack so ground still has SOMETHING going for it)

disagrees.

 

[Raijinken]

disagrees.

According to some translations of materials about , so does he.

But all the same, you know my meaning. You can't charge or hold an aerial, and the A-and-direction button combo will do the same thing in midair regardless of timing.

 

[Senario]

In a way it does but it isnt very accessible. How would a new player realize they can move or when they can start moving during a landing lag animation. People cant count frames during regular play generally. I do think landing lag being lower in general is much more noticable and effective change.

 

[Raijinken]

In a way it does but it isnt very accessible. How would a new player realize they can move or when they can start moving during a landing lag animation. People cant count frames during regular play generally. I do think landing lag being lower in general is much more noticable and effective change.

I can agree with this. My biggest gripe with 90% of Melee's advanced tech is that it is literally ignored from an official standpoint (I think L-canceling was mentioned solely in the Japanese SSB64 site, and I know Brawl mentioned pivot grabs in an offhand way on its Dojo), which makes it look like a glitch rather than a feature. The only thing I'd call an advanced tech that is even shown to your average isolated player is meteor canceling, and even that looks at a glance like computer players cheating. Only the blue sparkles made me think it was a real technique.

To that extent, I'm fine with advanced techniques, but I want them to feel like skills and be explained to your average user without a community to play with, and not feel like exploits.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can agree with this. My biggest gripe with 90% of Melee's advanced tech is that it is literally ignored from an official standpoint (I think L-canceling was mentioned solely in the Japanese SSB64 site, and I know Brawl mentioned pivot grabs in an offhand way on its Dojo), which makes it look like a glitch rather than a feature. The only thing I'd call an advanced tech that is even shown to your average isolated player is meteor canceling, and even that looks at a glance like computer players cheating. Only the blue sparkles made me think it was a real technique.

To that extent, I'm fine with advanced techniques, but I want them to feel like skills and be explained to your average user without a community to play with, and not feel like exploits.

I'd bet most of it was specifically for the CPUs to cheat. I mean, just look at how inept the Melee CPUs were... Even Giga Bowser wasn't enough to make them a challenge.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd bet most of it was specifically for the CPUs to cheat. I mean, just look at how inept the Melee CPUs were... Even Giga Bowser wasn't enough to make them a challenge.

I'm quite fine with CPUs being able to cheat, but if that's the intent, the inputs shouldn't be available for human players.

That said, the CPUs didn't L-cancel or Wavedash in Melee (though the lack of visual indicator on L-canceling makes me less than sure of that). Maybe if they had, I'd feel less bad about not discovering either technique in eight years of play without going online to find out.

 

[Superyoshiom]

You never know, they might still implement L-cancelling into the game. It was intentionally added into Melee, right?

 

[Deleted member]

You never know, they might still implement L-cancelling into the game. It was intentionally added into Melee, right?

It was intentionally added to both Melee and Smash 64. The official name for it is "Smooth Landing." I doubt they'd bring it back though.

 

[Superyoshiom]

It was intentionally added to both Melee and Smash 64. The official name for it is "Smooth Landing." I doubt they'd bring it back though.

Maybe, but with this installment they seem to really want to cater to the competitive crowd. I know it might be a stretch to add wave dashing, because that's technically a glitch, but it could't hurt to bring back this mechanic.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

In a way it does but it isnt very accessible. How would a new player realize they can move or when they can start moving during a landing lag animation. People cant count frames during regular play generally. I do think landing lag being lower in general is much more noticable and effective change.

Well, I imagine it would be like street fighter. When you perform links with normals, you can't just mash if out and expect the moves to combo, you need to time it right. There are certain points in the attack animation where you kind of know what to do. There are always key frames (like freeze frames) where it indicates some actions can be executed at the moment.

As far accessibility is concerned, I think that accessibility should go as far using indicators for frame specific actions, but eliminating the use for something (or neglecting to apply it) for the sake of accessibility is pandering to a player who is lacking in awareness; awareness of himself, his actions and the opponents actions.

I can understand that a concept like this is foreign to new players, however, a player shouldn't go into the game learning IASA frames. Learning the fundamentals of the game will always be more important, but it if a player should be interested later on, there should be something that indicates an action. Well if anything, Melee has showed us that players are capable to acting with their characters without a glaringly obvious visual que, but when you combo in smash, you know what it looks like when the opponent is in stun. It takes time to learn, as when players are sent away the average player mentality wouldn't be to chase, that comes from adapting a different mentality. Learning when to cancel a frame is the same as learning what move you can use to gain the best time to follow up with another one, so it may take some time. But something as an IASA frame can be seen. It can be in the form of a massive freeze frame on an attack, or when your character appears to be on the rebound of the landing animation; it can be visually interpreted that your character is ready for action. Like when Link uses his Down air, when the sword is in the ground, you instinctively know you can't act, your weapon is grounded and so are you. However, after he pulls it out the ground the character looks as if he's ready for action. You can always wait it out and go to neutral, or you can interrupt the remaining lag in exchange for committing to an option.

I'm all for lowering the landing lag, but that just means a player won't have to commit to anything, and returning to a neutral position in a speed faster than your opponent can react to it promotes defensive play and shuts down options, leaving characters with the best aerials to always dominate in zoning while retaining there other strenghts. I feel like a character like Puff should have universally low landing lag because she is an aerial character, same with MK, but they shouldn't be able to be compete with a character who is heavily ground based.

Returning to a neutral state freely and quickly after an aerials shouldn't be universally strong to every character, but you should be able to act out of landing an aerial for offensive and defensive purpose in exchange for giving up more options, and at the same time you explore more.

 

[Senario]

Well, I imagine it would be like street fighter. When you perform links with normals, you can't just mash if out and expect the moves to combo, you need to time it right. There are certain points in the attack animation where you kind of know what to do. There are always key frames (like freeze frames) where it indicates some actions can be executed at the moment.

As far accessibility is concerned, I think that accessibility should go as far using indicators for frame specific actions, but eliminating the use for something (or neglecting to apply it) for the sake of accessibility is pandering to a player who is lacking in awareness; awareness of himself, his actions and the opponents actions.

I can understand that a concept like this is foreign to new players, however, a player shouldn't go into the game learning IASA frames. Learning the fundamentals of the game will always be more important, but it if a player should be interested later on, there should be something that indicates an action. Well if anything, Melee has showed us that players are capable to acting with their characters without a glaringly obvious visual que, but when you combo in smash, you know what it looks like when the opponent is in stun. It takes time to learn, as when players are sent away the average player mentality wouldn't be to chase, that comes from adapting a different mentality. Learning when to cancel a frame is the same as learning what move you can use to gain the best time to follow up with another one, so it may take some time. But something as an IASA frame can be seen. It can be in the form of a massive freeze frame on an attack, or when your character appears to be on the rebound of the landing animation; it can be visually interpreted that your character is ready for action. Like when Link uses his Down air, when the sword is in the ground, you instinctively know you can't act, your weapon is grounded and so are you. However, after he pulls it out the ground the character looks as if he's ready for action. You can always wait it out and go to neutral, or you can interrupt the remaining lag in exchange for committing to an option.

I'm all for lowering the landing lag, but that just means a player won't have to commit to anything, and returning to a neutral position in a speed faster than your opponent can react to it promotes defensive play and shuts down options. Leaving characters with the best aerials to always dominate in zoning while retaining there other strenghts. I feel like a character like Puff should have universally low landing lag because she is an aerial character, same with MK, but they shouldn't be able to be compete with a character who is heavily ground based.

Returning to a neutral state freely and quickly after an aerials shouldn't be universally strong to every character, but you should be able to act out of landing an aerial for offensive and defensive purpose in exchange for giving up more options, and at the same time you explore more.

[/quote]
I dunno there is a very clear indicator in standing up for when you can act out of landing lag. I have come across it with roy many times as it is one of his combos. You need to react very fast to the standing up for a right smash out of sweet spotted fair. And in general i do think that standing up is very clear as to when you can act. Fully ground based combat works in a traditional fighting game but smash often sends people into the air once they get to any decent percent hence why the air game is important. There is nothing wrong with the ground game it is just that strong ground game cannot ever dominate. Smashes, tilts, specials, grabs, and so on were all part of the ground game in melee and it worked very well.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Whilst I can't see Sakurai doing this at all, I think an IASA indicator in a manner similar to PM's L-Cancel flash could be useful, albeit a little hard on the eyes. If a character were to flash white (or sparkle or something) right before the first frame of interruptible landing lag, then it would be pretty accessible IMO, once someone finds out what the indicator is even for that is.