But really, it's time for taunts to take over for transformations.

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

Zelda and Shiek would gain a new move:
Zelda/Sheik: Down taunt

Even better, you could pick which Pokemon comes out for the Pokemon Trainer:
Squirtle: Down taunt
Ivysaur: Side taunt
Charizard: Up taunt


I wonder if there is some technical or balance reason for them not doing this, it feels very obvious to me.

 

[dimensionsword64]

They don't do this because taunts are supposed to be just a fun thing to do that makes fun of the opponent. They aren't supposed to actually have in-game effects.

 

[nessokman]

They don't do this because taunts are supposed to be just a fun thing to do that makes fun of the opponent. They aren't supposed to actually have in-game effects.

snake's codec would like a word with you.

 

[Pyra]

snake's codec would like a word with you.

idunno, that still seems like just a fun thing to do that doesn't have in game effects other than "HOLY **** A CONVERSATION WOW!"

 

[dimensionsword64]

snake's codec would like a word with you.

Snake's codec is just an effect. It has absolutely no effect on what's happening in the match.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[nessokman]

Snake's codec is just an effect. It has absolutely no effect on what's happening in the match.

Edit: Ninja'd

Snake's box having small knockback capable of killing at a certain percentage would like to have a word with you.

 

[Pyra]

Snake's box having small knockback capable of killing at a certain percentage would like to have a word with you.

oh, if you're talking taunt damage, then sure.
But I prefer Luigi's.

 

[nessokman]

oh, if you're talking taunt damage, then sure.
But I prefer Luigi's.

Luigi's KO taunt would like a word with you

 

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

They don't do this because taunts are supposed to be just a fun thing to do that makes fun of the opponent. They aren't supposed to actually have in-game effects.

Eh, that seems like a poor excuse The characters would even still have taunts.. Zelda and Shiek would still have two taunts, and if they really want Pokemon Trainer to have a taunt then change the set up I have listed above (right Squirtle, down Ivysaur, left Charizard) and leave him the up button for taunts. Each monster has their own taunt. If they want to they could make it special to compensate for him only having one like have the fanfare jingle play when they do it.

 

[Accf124]

Ganondorf is the only character I would really like with taunt transformation. That's only because I like Ganondorf's moveset and I don't want any of his attacks being replaced. The sword idea is pretty cool in my opinion.

 

[Pyra]

Luigi's KO taunt would like a word with you

Yes, that's the one I was talking about, thank you for repeating what I said.
That taunt and I have very nice conversations.

 

[nessokman]

Yes, that's the one I was talking about, thank you for repeating what I said.
That taunt and I have very nice conversations.

Pikachu's taunt that causes him to roll low enough to dodge fox's lazors

 

[Pyra]

Pikachu's taunt that causes him to roll low enough to dodge fox's lazors

Listen, mister,
I only disagreed with you once.

And, as for the subject matter, I would love for transformations to be taunts.

 

[nessokman]

Listen, mister,
I only disagreed with you once.

And, as for the subject matter, I would love for transformations to be taunts.

My D Fox/falco/wolf's easter egg conversations would like a word with you

 

[DaDavid]

Literally the only thing I could see as being a good reason not to include this is what if someone wants to do the taunt associated with a transformation without actually transforming? Even then I'm sure it'd be possible to work around it.

Well I guess one could also argue that each form of a character losing a special is meant to be a balancing thing but eh, there's other ways to do that too.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Snake's box having small knockback capable of killing at a certain percentage would like to have a word with you.

Oh a 1% percent damage really slow attack that's barely ever used that way is certainly game changing. (sarcasm)
Changing characters would be game changing.

 

[Renji64]

I actually like this idea.

 

[nessokman]

Oh a 1% percent damage really slow attack that's barely ever used that way is certainly game changing. (sarcasm)
Changing characters would be game changing.

eue, No, I simply said that to counter the "Taunts are for lolz" argument

 

[dimensionsword64]

eue, No, I simply said that to counter the "Taunts are for lolz" argument

And I simply said that to defend the "Taunts are for lolz" argument

 

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

Oh a 1% percent damage really slow attack that's barely ever used that way is certainly game changing. (sarcasm)
Changing characters would be game changing.

Your argument would make more sense if there was only one taunt. There are three taunts right now. One taunt effecting gameplay wouldn't completely change everything. The only reason we would use a taunt is because there are spare buttons. Their purpose right now is superficial.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So Pokemon Trainer does actually get any taunts then?

 

[dimensionsword64]

Your argument would make more sense if there was only one taunt. There are three taunts right now. One taunt effecting gameplay wouldn't completely change everything. The only reason we would use a taunt is because there are spare buttons. Their purpose right now is superficial.

Not for Pokemon Trainer. And what if you hit the wrong button. And when I taunt, I just hit any random taunt button.

 

[Ryan.]

I like this idea, especially if Pokemon Trainer would return, it was frustrating having to go transform twice to get the pokemon I wanted after I died.

 

[moneyfrenzy]

You guys are forgetting that kirby's taunt makes him get rid of his power. Thats an effect.

 

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

So Pokemon Trainer does actually get any taunts then?

Yeah, like I said a few post up they could give him the up button as a taunt, or just have the taunt button be for the pokemon that's out. So if Charizard comes out when you press left, he does his taunt instead of switching.

 

[Kantrip]

Transformation characters already have more moves than any other character. The option to change between two characters with different playstyles, strengths and weaknesses is supposed to take up a special move slot because it's a special move. If this change was made, then every character may as well have a new attack on their taunt buttons to balance it out.

 

[josh bones]

Taunts are the mst important move in the game where have you been?

 

[pitthekit]

I would love transforming taunts!

.... Down special was always Zelda's best move

I always thought there should have been a taunt that would switch Popo and Nana. It wouldn't really do anything, but it wouldn't be as sexist

Uhhh was there a palette swap in brawl and melee where you played as nana(leader) popo(sexy slave)

 

[GreenReaperGod]

I always thought there should have been a taunt that would switch Popo and Nana. It wouldn't really do anything, but it wouldn't be as sexist

 

[guedes the brawler]

transformations are too important to be anything less that a special move.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I've seen this idea come up several times, and I still don't get it. Why does anyone support this? You're effectively mapping a special move to a taunt button. That doesn't exactly scream "balanced" to me. Because let's face it, having more options does effect the balance of a character. Also, do people really care that much about a character getting an extra special move? The only one I would sort of being in favor of this for is Pokemon trainer, but I have a better idea for him. Have the taunt decide which Pokemon will come out next (the next in the sequence if no taunt has been done since last switching), but still have to use down+B to switch.

 

[the smash nerd]

Zelda and Shiek would gain a new move:
Zelda/Sheik: Down taunt

Even better, you could pick which Pokemon comes out for the Pokemon Trainer:
Squirtle: Down taunt
Ivysaur: Side taunt
Charizard: Up taunt


I wonder if there is some technical or balance reason for them not doing this, it feels very obvious to me.

yes but no The Drilling Juggernaut

 

[smashbro29]

Transformation characters already have more moves than any other character. The option to change between two characters with different playstyles, strengths and weaknesses is supposed to take up a special move slot because it's a special move. If this change was made, then every character may as well have a new attack on their taunt buttons to balance it out.

Voice of reason here!

 

[pitthekit]

Ugg who cares transforming characters always suck because they have more steeper flaws than non transforming characters... We'll sheik was good in melee... Maybe smash 4 will break this evil trend.

 

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

For those of you disagreeing with me in regards to balance, do you think they should assign a taunt button to a pokemon for the pokemon trainer like Mr. Mumbles suggested? Down B plus pressing left taunt gets you Squirtle, Down B and down taunt gets you Ivysaure, and so on. There needs to be a way to pick which monster comes out next.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

eue, No, I simply said that to counter the "Taunts are for lolz" argument

Taunts are for lolz though, even the ones which do have effects have nearly unnoticeable effects, or as in Luigi's case has an exaggerated effect but still isn't viable for proper fighting. I sure hope you don't use Snake's box in hopes of doing anything significant.

Either way, I'm not opposed to the idea, though I'd like to at least always have one taunt minimum on each character, not bring able to throw out that little animation would be a tad saddening as silly as it might be. I think since Pokémon Trainer is a forced trio character where you switch out upon death keeping it as Down-B is fine as that's the core part of the character, though I'd like to see Zelda and Sheik to go the taunt way since you usually only choose the character you like the best out of those two.

 

[Tybis]

I always thought there should have been a taunt that would switch Popo and Nana. It wouldn't really do anything, but it wouldn't be as sexist

Uh...
Wouldn't that effectively switch your damage? (They have their own damage meters after all.)
And don't half of their colors have Nana as the lead Climber?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Transformation characters already have more moves than any other character. The option to change between two characters with different playstyles, strengths and weaknesses is supposed to take up a special move slot because it's a special move. If this change was made, then every character may as well have a new attack on their taunt buttons to balance it out.

The problem is it's never used as you describe. The only reason you would ever switch from Shiek to Zelda is for the extra recovery distance, and the only reason you'd switch from Zelda to Shiek is if you're tired of getting your butt kicked. They are not being played the way they were designed to because it's virtually not feasible, so at least an extra move would make them more interesting. Balance really wouldn't be much of an issue. Though if it were up to me I'd make them straight up separate characters.

As for Pokémon Trainer, I dunno. I'm not very familiar with Brawl, but according to his tier placement he could use the few extra moves.

 

[Kantrip]

The problem is it's never used as you describe. The only reason you would ever switch from Shiek to Zelda is for the extra recovery distance, and the only reason you'd switch from Zelda to Shiek is if you're tired of getting your butt kicked. They are not being played the way they were designed to because it's virtually not feasible, so at least an extra move would make them more interesting. Balance really wouldn't be much of an issue. Though if it were up to me I'd make them straight up separate characters.

As for Pokémon Trainer, I dunno. I'm not very familiar with Brawl, but according to his tier placement he could use the few extra moves.

You can't attribute low tier placement to a lack of moves. You could take away Meta Knight's down B and he'd still be the best character by a long shot. There are other problems that can be addressed to improve transformation characters. The big problems holding them back from having their intended playstyle are how vulnerable they are when they try to transform mid-match. Another problem is simply a lack of different, meaningful options in alternate forms. Sheik is supposed to be faster and have more combo potential, while Zelda is supposed to have more kill potential, but instead what happened is Sheik is just an all-around better character and Zelda has no leg-up on Sheik to give any incentive to switch besides really specific scenarios. Pokemon Trainer sets itself up as a transformation character much better, but runs the problem of simply having one really good transformation in Squirtle, one mediocre transformation in Charizard, and one trash transformation in Ivysaur. These just average out to make a mediocre character since you're forced to switch.

If all transformations had tools that made them worth playing, transforming between them mid-match would be worth doing and would warrant a move. This should be addressed rather than just making it a taunt that no one will use because there's still no reason to switch over. At that point you might as well just give them separate slots on the roster.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

You can't attribute low tier placement to a lack of moves. You could take away Meta Knight's down B and he'd still be the best character by a long shot.

I think you misunderstood. My point is you don't have to give everyone an extra attack to balance it out because those characters (Shiek in Melee notwithstanding) aren't very good anyway, one extra move for them will only improve the game.

The big problems holding them back from having their intended playstyle are how vulnerable they are when they try to transform mid-match. Another problem is simply a lack of different, meaningful options in alternate forms. Sheik is supposed to be faster and have more combo potential, while Zelda is supposed to have more kill potential, but instead what happened is Sheik is just an all-around better character and Zelda has no leg-up on Sheik to give any incentive to switch besides really specific scenarios. Pokemon Trainer sets itself up as a transformation character much better, but runs the problem of simply having one really good transformation in Squirtle, one mediocre transformation in Charizard, and one trash transformation in Ivysaur. These just average out to make a mediocre character since you're forced to switch.

If all transformations had tools that made them worth playing, transforming between them mid-match would be worth doing and would warrant a move. This should be addressed rather than just making it a taunt that no one will use because there's still no reason to switch over. At that point you might as well just give them separate slots on the roster.

Ideally yes, you're right. Transformation mid-match should be a more viable option, in which case I would have no problem with it being mapped on an attack button. In Smash's current state, however, a taunt button would be the ideal place for a transformation button because it really isn't an option. The extra special attack could make Zelda in particular a more fleshed out character. Therefore, they should fix it like you suggested, or give them a move that's actually useful.