Bullying in Competitive Smash

[Frihetsanka]

Since we've been asked to stay on topic, I will only respond to the one part of your post that I managed to tie to the topic.

If your view of masculine behavior is that narrow, I'd argue you'd not have much experience interacting with other men in groups. It's part of male behavior to be rude, straight to the point, and even dig and tease people a bit when you're close with them. It's how we express familiarity with people. Yes, it's in masculine spirit to try and be masculine and competitive.

This, I believe, could very well be true, and I've seen it expressed in many different cultures as well. You also see it quite a bit between Smash players on Twitter and on streams. However, the "when you're close with them" part is important. How you express yourself around friends should be very different from how you express yourself around strangers. People may feel that they know pro Smash players, but they don't know you, so they might perceive it has harassment. Ally can joke about ZeRo, perhaps sometimes fairly harshly, but random Twitch guy #252925 probably shouldn't.

 

[Deleted member]

Since we've been asked to stay on topic, I will only respond to the one part of your post that I managed to tie to the topic.

This, I believe, could very well be true, and I've seen it expressed in many different cultures as well. You also see it quite a bit between Smash players on Twitter and on streams. However, the "when you're close with them" part is important. How you express yourself around friends should be very different from how you express yourself around strangers. People may feel that they know pro Smash players, but they don't know you, so they might perceive it has harassment. Ally can joke about ZeRo, perhaps sometimes fairly harshly, but random Twitch guy #252925 probably shouldn't.

You're right that they shouldn't, but they're anonymous, so they're going to do it anyway and there's nothing you can do about it. Not only that, but crying about it is only gonna incite more trolls to join in.

Moreover:

Do you even watch competitive sports at all?

If Smash and eSports are to be taken seriously as a competitive sport, then that also entails that the communities mature, and embrace what competition, and showmanship are like. And I don't mean mature as in "create a safe space were mean words can't be said so everyone plays nice with each other." I mean mature as in the competitors begin to embrace what being in the spotlight is actually like, and learn to cope with psychological abuse like hardened adults. Because just the same as as timing out the clock is a viable strategy toward victory, so is psychologically attacking your opponent so that they're unable to perform at their peak. Combat sports are mental sports just as much as they are physical, and they have embraced the trash talk and hype culture long since, because they've known for the longest time that this is part of what fighting and competition are like. THIS is what people are here to see. The PERSONALITIES, not what long winded combo or whatever your managed to set up.

A side effect of this is that the fans will also get caught up in the rivalry and the trash talk, and that's just the way it is.

You are a competitor, it is your duty to manage your psyche so that you can stay focused to win. You can't? Then I guess you're simply not good enough. Being the best is much more than being technically skilled, it also entails having a strong will, and a hardened focus.

>but ZeRo got death threats and had to get a bodyguard, GASP!!

And how many death threats do you think McGregor and Mayweather get on a DAILY basis. You see those bodyguards? How Yeah, that's PART of being famous. Name ONE big shot celebrity that DOESN'T have at least one bodyguard. Especially competitors. This has been a thing since forever, and people have learned to adapt, and protect themselves. Assholes exist everywhere, and the more popular you, and a sport get, the more assholes you're gonna attract. Crying about it on the internet isn't gonna change anything, it's only gonna make you a bigger target.

 

[MERPIS]

Since we've been asked to stay on topic,

sorry not possible, crappy topic.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Please, this is a serious topic and it needs to be discussed.
Let's not turn this into a ****post thread. We were having pretty decent discussion.

 

[Phoenix502]

sitting on this comment box, and typing out what I think at the moment... then deleting it when I get sidetracked and look at it again.

stuff like this has been going on for a long time, and while it's not something that people are likely to agree with if this were done in person, it's not like people really know how to stifle or truly discourage it, either... a large part of players often let their emotions get the better of them, and thanks to social media, the world will immediately know what they're feeling at that moment.

they don't have to take the time to cool their jets [instead of] going on a rant, and when people log on and agree with them, it makes their salt feel justified for the wrong reasons.

their anger gets bolstered by people who agree with them, and it results in them developing much differently than someone who was forced to get used to the issue and work around it. I didn't have social media until very late in PM's mainstay, and I can say for a fact that if I did have it, and I was easily made salty now as I was back then, I would probably not have, what the new kids shorthand with a typically arrogant tone, "got gud"...

 

[Heracr055]

sorry not possible, crappy topic.

Please keep out if you're going to continue your tendency to be a poor poster.

Anyways...we should do convince people that Twitch posters and Youtube commentors are not the scene. And people should sleep on their feelings before they post.

Also...comparing Zero to Mayweather and McGregor is outrageous. They're conditioned to be tough because of their line of work. And death threats should never transfer to eSports.

 

[MERPIS]

Please keep out if you're going to continue your tendency to be a poor poster.

Anyways...we should do convince people that Twitch posters and Youtube commentors are not the scene. And people should sleep on their feelings before they post.

Also...comparing Zero to Mayweather and McGregor is outrageous. They're conditioned to be tough because of their line of work. And death threats should never transfer to eSports.

no I'm good, I'll stick around
this website is a hivemind anyways, best to bring some variety into it.

 

[Deleted member]

Please keep out if you're going to continue your tendency to be a poor poster.

Anyways...we should do convince people that Twitch posters and Youtube commentors are not the scene. And people should sleep on their feelings before they post.

Also...comparing Zero to Mayweather and McGregor is outrageous. They're conditioned to be tough because of their line of work. And death threats should never transfer to eSports.

They're conditioned to be tough.... physically, because of their line of work.

Mental strength is part of ALL competitive sports, even non-active ones like Chess, Poker, and Gaming. Again, even Chess pros behave like total ***** toward one an other, and death threats are a part of being famous, regardless of your line of work. If you're gonna put yourself in the public eye, it's something you better be prepared for. And here's the real kicker, for all the fuss you're making over death THREATS, the people that ACTUALLY wanna kill someone, don't voice their intent. They prepare in silence. So think about that for a second and let it sink in... For all the death threats anyone might get, what about the death threats they DON'T get from people who might actually wanna harm them? How is silencing and policing people gonna stop that? Because a fact of life is that psychos and sociopaths exist out there, and always have. Someone who might wanna make a name for themselves and become infamous by shooting someone famous. Best example being John Lennon who was killed by a FAN.

It's downright stupid to put yourself in the public eye without the mental fortitude to deal with harassment, AND, more importantly, the necessary protection to deal with legitimate threats. Because that's the harsh reality of being famous.

Finally, the comparison to combat sports is NOT outrageous in the slightest, because fighting games and their culture are most synonymous with one another. The FGC has embraced this side of things, and dealt with it according, the Smash scene, for all its desire to be recognized as a fighting game, wants to do away with what makes the scene exciting in the first place? Downright closed-minded and dumb if you ask me.

 

[TheHumanSonikku]

What if someone DOES get killed in a Smash tournament in the future? Should we just let it slide because we have to just accept it?

 

[Deleted member]

What if someone DOES get killed in a Smash tournament in the future? Should we just let it slide because we have to just accept it?

The only way you're ever gonna stop a tragedy like that from happening is by having the famous pros come prepared with bodyguards when they attend public events.

That's it.

Outside of that, there is zero way to prevent anything like that outside of gun control, and even then, the black market still exists. Welcome to the real world.

You could increase security at large events, but smaller more local ones will always be unsafe, and with people happily posting their daily happening on social media on a regular basis, it's not exactly hard to track someone down.

I'm sorry, but these people wanted to be famous. A lack of privacy and increased risk is the price you pay for that. It's on them to look after themselves, not us. Just like with any other celebrity, big or small. One way you can coast by safely is by not drawing attention to yourself by constantly playing the victim on Twitter, just some friendly advice.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Not really sure if that would work. Most people start stuff purely for attention, and the more you give them the harder they are to get rid of.

Though it WOULD be nice to just walk up to a heckler and be like "$100 MM or stfu"...

They won't do it. This is the real-life equivalent of...

-The guy on For Glory who takes one game from you, insults you with his tag, and dips
-The guy on Smashladder who talks **** and refuses to play you.

They have nothing to prove to anyone. So long as they have a perch to continue hurling insults, the last thing they want to do is be exposed.

 

[Cyn]

Again, please stay on the topic of this thread. Any more off topic spammy messages will be warned/infracted.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So in short the reason bullies happen is that people are ****** who think they can get away with anything? That's kinda immature. In any case a lot of the posts are TL;DR.
It's best to put things simply, most people are silent and aren't ****** the problem with bullies is that despite them being only a small group they're one of the loudest....and social media makes them able to be even louder.

Again, please stay on the topic of this thread. Any more off topic spammy messages will be warned/infracted.

Sorry not to tell someone how to do their job but warnings don't work unless action is taken, a lot of trolls have received several warnings which were flat-out ignored.Warnings don't work with everyone sadly, you have to follow through.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think it would help discussion here if we define the boundary between trash talk and going to far.

I think we all agree that some trash talk is super fun and hype worthy(EASY MONEY) but there are line you shouldn't cross while doing it.

I think defining that line would go a long way.



Personally, I don't think death threats like the one Zero's received are acceptable trash talk. Trash talk should be something people clearly understand is trash talk. It should be very obvious that it is just trash talk. It should focus on the competition and the competitors themselves in regards to that competition.

"I'm gonna kill you in the ring" is very different from "I'm going to come to your house and kill you." Especially when the competition isn't about physical combat in the first place.

Even if its just **** talking online, that doesn't make it right.

Now I'm not gonna say that we need to get the police or the government involved (that will make things worse), but we should absolutely discourage such behavior and suggest better alternatives.

 

[Rizen]

From a legal stand point, death threats are a crime and go beyond bullying. So that's a serious issue.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/death-threat/
Just saying.

I hate to sound like an 80s cartoon but, bullying's not cool. We as the smash community are better than that. To quote Rush:
"If the future's looking dark
We're the ones who have to shine
If there's no one in control
We're the ones who draw the line
Though we live in trying times
We're the ones who have to try
Though we know that time has wings
We're the ones who have to fly"

 

[clarify]

Stuff like "I have some advice for you: quit!" is not trash talk.

That should be a good example of what not to do in the Smash community.

Also, personal insults that go outside the game should be considered unacceptable.

 

[Heracr055]

The 3 posts above are examples of constructive posts that promote a healthy discussion, and are a good reference for when you construct a response.
I like the idea of defining a line between trash talk and beyond.

 

[R3D3MON]

Stuff like "I have some advice for you: quit!" is not trash talk.

That should be a good example of what not to do in the Smash community.

Also, personal insults that go outside the game should be considered unacceptable.

But Toph is funny as ****. Also that quote is very clearly trash talk, lmao.

 

[moe2144]

The Alpha/Beta male distinction is very simple.

Are you a masculine man, with high drive/ambition, and the will to attain success in life (with results)?
....

Does any of the above not apply to you?
....
Sorry, you're a beta male.

....
The spirit of competition is emotions will run high, and feelings will get hurt. If you're in this scene, you're gonna have to learn to deal with it if you wanna continue. The same applies to just about any competitive sport ever. Even Chess pros are total ***** to each other. End of story.

I just gotta say, you have a VERY strong username to post content ratio

Again, please stay on the topic of this thread. Any more off topic spammy messages will be warned/infracted.

Pls go, there has only been nothing but natural progression of dialogue in this thread and most things discussed stem from the original topic. Don't try to over-moderate as that's how you kill a community

 

[Phoenix502]

I think it would help discussion here if we define the boundary between trash talk and going to far.

I think we all agree that some trash talk is super fun and hype worthy(EASY MONEY) but there are line you shouldn't cross while doing it.

I think defining that line would go a long way.

okay, then, my definition of "going too far" would be based on moderation and influence.

trash talk, to a degree, is very provocative and can enhance a competitive environment, but it does depend on what's being said within that context. making a snappy one-liner before, after, maybe during a pivotal moment can be pretty inspiring sometimes, but if you keep talking and the folks on stage react a bit more subdued, it's a sign you're potentially stepping out of bounds.

commentators aren't exempt from it, either... and the way I see it, one strong point of a more professional commentator is the effort made to remain as neutral about a match as possible. sure, they'll place emphasis on someone who's making a strong lead, but they can shift that feeling just as easily if the other guy picks up steam.

Stuff like "I have some advice for you: quit!" is not trash talk.

That should be a good example of what not to do in the Smash community.

Also, personal insults that go outside the game should be considered unacceptable.

But Toph is funny as ****. Also that quote is very clearly trash talk, lmao.

it also doesn't matter how long you've been commentating, if you can make the crowd laugh regularly, sure... but if you start directing the jokes toward someone, you run the risk of potentially throwing lowkey jabs at someone. Even if it was in good fun and people who know these folks well can let it slide, there's a lot of other people who watch them to gauge what they can get away with saying. if these people in the spotlight aren't careful, it could leave a bad impression of what's acceptable and what's not.

I could go on a whole different monologue about how people can take a light joke out of context, but I think you folks can figure that much out on your own.

 

[R3D3MON]

it also doesn't matter how long you've been commentating, if you can make the crowd laugh regularly, sure... but if you start directing the jokes toward someone, you run the risk of potentially throwing lowkey jabs at someone. Even if it was in good fun and people who know these folks well can let it slide, there's a lot of other people who watch them to gauge what they can get away with saying. if these people in the spotlight aren't careful, it could leave a bad impression of what's acceptable and what's not.

I could go on a whole different monologue about how people can take a light joke out of context, but I think you folks can figure that much out on your own.

But it was from a salty suite...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

But it was from a salty suite...

We know R3D3MON, we know, but that's irrelevant.
In fact knowing when something goes too far is so much a matter of opinion that aside from death threats noone is going to agree how far is 'too far'.
Regardless of the person doing the trash talking is a horrid winner or, as is the case of the article, a super sore loser or spectator they feel that their threatening is justified and won't listen to anyone else.
It's a proven fact that Smash makes everyone hot under the collar but seriously this can be worse than League Of Legends at times when it comes to toxicity (League of Legends is still worse though according to WatchMojo).
So how does one draw a line in the sand without it going too far? What are the guidelines? Noone's going to agree on that.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Instead of banning speech like a bunch of dictators, man up and spit some liquid hot magma(metaphorically). No one likes to be bullied, but don't treat it like it's a emergency. If it's **** talk then just ignore it or **** talk back. If it's threats then do what I suggested previously and defend yourself. I still find it funny that this is being discussed so much.

 

[R3D3MON]

We know R3D3MON, we know, but that's irrelevant.
In fact knowing when something goes too far is so much a matter of opinion that aside from death threats noone is going to agree how far is 'too far'.
Regardless of the person doing the trash talking is a horrid winner or, as is the case of the article, a super sore loser or spectator they feel that their threatening is justified and won't listen to anyone else.
It's a proven fact that Smash makes everyone hot under the collar but seriously this can be worse than League Of Legends at times when it comes to toxicity (League of Legends is still worse though according to WatchMojo).
So how does one draw a line in the sand without it going too far? What are the guidelines? Noone's going to agree on that.

I agree with the general sentiment of the thread. The death threat against ZeRo is quite frankly despicable and shameful.

However....

the user clarify's examples of Toph trash-talking Tian and someone telling clarify to not play ganon if he wants to win as examples of "bullying" are also ridiculous.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Wait when was that mentioned? Can you quote that?

 

[R3D3MON]

Wait when was that mentioned? Can you quote that?

This isn't limited to Smash 4. In Brawl, everyone started hating Meta Knight players. In Melee, people consistently rooted for Ken to lose just because he was the one who was on top for years. Half of the Melee community rags on Hbox consistently and always roots for him to lose. Some people are hated for being ***holes (Leffen), but then there are others who have done absolutely nothing to deserve any kind of hate other than playing a specific character or play a specific style.
Hell, just a few days ago, I was having a bad day playing with some other guys in Melee and one of them said if I wanted to improve, I should pick a better character (I main Ganon in Melee). We even have fans of Melee hate and barrage fans of Smash 4, and vice-versa, just for being a fan of the game.
The Smash community as a whole needs to take a seriously look in the mirror and ax the toxicity, ASAP. There's a reason why we don't have a good reputation among other communities, both in video games and in general.

Stuff like "I have some advice for you: quit!" is not trash talk.

That should be a good example of what not to do in the Smash community.

Also, personal insults that go outside the game should be considered unacceptable.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Er I watched Avatar: The Last Airbender I don't see a Toph quote here. Then again if it was her debut episode I saw the initial fights before Aang beat her but we're getting off-topic.

Like I said the line for when trash talking goes too far is ill-defined. Everyone has a different definition on how far is too far (but as previously stated death threats are universally agreed to go too far).
People hate censorship so again how do we go about doing this?

 

[R3D3MON]

Er I watched Avatar: The Last Airbender I don't see a Toph quote here. Then again if it was her debut episode I saw the initial fights before Aang beat her but we're getting off-topic.

Like I said the line for when trash talking goes too far is ill-defined. Everyone has a different definition on how far is too far (but as previously stated death threats are universally agreed to go too far).
People hate censorship so again how do we go about doing this?

LMAO toph is a well-known commentator and community figure in the SSBM community.

 

[Rizen]

People hate censorship so again how do we go about doing this?

To paraphrase, you don't try to censor or change people but rather lead through example by being the best person you can be.

Gandhi was an amazing leader who was able to liberate India through non-violence. His memory continues to be an inspiration.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So you're saying change yourself? I don't remember trash talking a bunch of other people so how does that work. Sometimes a wise saying can get lost in translation. Explain please.

 

[Deleted member]

Instead of banning speech like a bunch of dictators, man up and spit some liquid hot magma(metaphorically). No one likes to be bullied, but don't treat it like it's a emergency. If it's **** talk then just ignore it or **** talk back. If it's threats then do what I suggested previously and defend yourself. I still find it funny that this is being discussed so much.

This.

Topic has been done to death by now. Idk what's left to discuss if people don't address or counterargue the established main points, and instead ignore them and go around in circles trying to a draw a line in the sand on an already grey issue.

You wanna nuke the competitive scene into oblivion? Start policing what people should and shouldn't say.

I just gotta say, you have a VERY strong username to post content ratio

Lol, what does that mean?

Pls go, there has only been nothing but natural progression of dialogue in this thread and most things discussed stem from the original topic. Don't try to over-moderate as that's how you kill a community

Also this.

Given his timing, I was wondering if the admin's comment was in reference to my very much on topic post, now that he's given a warning to you and REDMON's definitely on-topic post, I can only suspect he was referring to me.

I'm sorry, but you can't use your admin powers to railway a discussion down only one narrow path cause you don't like what the opposition says.

If that's how this thread is gonna go, then that's peace out for me.

 

[TheHumanSonikku]

You wanna nuke the competitive scene into oblivion? Start policing what people should and shouldn't say.

I get that we can't police what everyone says, but we can't encourage people to do this either. There's a point where certain players can't take the verbal abuse anymore, and there is a point that can be crossed when people threaten to kill you.

 

[Deleted member]

I get that we can't police what everyone says, but we can't encourage people to do this either. There's a point where certain players can't take the verbal abuse anymore, and there is a point that can be crossed when people threaten to kill you.

No one is encouraging people to around giving death threats. If something crosses the line legally, let the proper authorities deal with it. But trash talk is trash talk, and if certain players can't handle that, then they should just drop out.

I've already outlined how this is LITERALLY part of competition. If you can't cope with that, then you're not cut out for this stuff, simple as.

There's absolutely NO WAY you'll ever stop people from doing stuff like this, and any attempt to try and control it, will only result in detrimental consequences for the whole of the scene, as people start to abuse whatever rules you set in place to get back at people they don't like, or even gain a competitive edge.

I can see it now "so and so said something mean about his rival, thus he's banned from the tourney, and blah blah got first place."

Best course of action:

Let it be.

Let the pros handle themselves as they should, and don't interfere and touch it. Simple as. Back in my day, we were taught "sticks and stones" m8, idk why this is such a concept to grasp for people. Back in the arcades taunting your opponents was EXPECTED. Now that everyone lives in a safe bubble behind their computer screens, everyone's grown far more soft and entitled to being treated "nice" by others and playing "fair." I'm sorry, but no one owes anyone anything, and people aren't entitled to being like. People gotta realize that some people will flat out ****ing hate you, just because you exist, because that's just the way the world is, and you simply gotta cope with that. Trying to police this ****, isn't gonna change how people fundamentally act or not.

 

[Heracr055]

Here I come to save the day!

R3D3MON's post seems to be on topic, albeit brief. I disagree with being told to quit being trash talk. I think saying 'your Gannon sucks' is trash talk.

ManlySpirit is offering an alternate perspective, though I definitely do not agree with it. Most of the stuff he responded to from other users (feminism, alpha/beta male, etc) was outside the topic scope anyways. As I stated earlier, death threats are not trash talk. Maybe in boxing/wrestling/UFC/etc, but not here in eSports. There's a fine line developing notoriety with some conduct (Zack's dancing for example) which triggers a lot of people vs treating someone as lesser of a being (Day screaming during Zero's sets to distract him). I think you may be overreacting a bit to what I (and other anti-bully proponents) want in an idealized scene. I don't want to 'nuke' it. Just set some basic decency ground rules. And I don't really recall growing up in a gaming scene of a bunch of trash talk in arcades, gaming with friends & randoms, etc. Different upbringings perhaps. I'll address Zero's playstyle and conduct later.

The comment of username to post count was out of line.

Alrighty, let's resume.

 

[Phoenix502]

Er I watched Avatar: The Last Airbender I don't see a Toph quote here. Then again if it was her debut episode I saw the initial fights before Aang beat her but we're getting off-topic

in case you're not joking, R3D3MON meant MIOM|Toph

also, the Gandhi quote basically refers to the phrase "Lead by Example"...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

A lot of people try to "Lead by Example" but what if noone follows that example? What then? We TRY to lead by example. I, for one, try not to taunt in any match I have, ever. Though if someone else taunts first? Yeah.... also......uh heh heh heh sorry the only Toph I know of was from that one cartoon (remember I don't know the movers, shakers, and players in Smash....it's...kind of embarrassing)

 

[Heracr055]

For the most part, people do lead by example at tournaments (the ones I've been to at least).

 

[Mr. G&W]

I have often joked to myself and friends about how only trolls use King Dedede, because most trolls I've come across in FG use King Dedede. But, I've had run-ins with trolls who'd use Captain Falcon, or Zero Suit Samus, or Ryu. I swear, these guys give competitive gaming a bad name. I mean, you don't see me taunting for every KO or teabag when a KO is ensured. At least, not unless my opponent does it first. (Someone pushes me, I push back.) It's an equivalent of gloating and boasting; and, as I said in a thread a while back, saying "git gud" and "get rekt" and stuff are, to my way of thinking, akin to saying, "Play better, idiot."

So yeah, I can easily say the online gaming community -- particularly FG, regardless of the system you're playing Smash 4 on -- is as toxic as ever. Oh yeah, and I spectated a taunt party match in which a Kirby player and a Wii Fit Trainer player ganged up on two other players. What sportsmanship. *sarcasm*