BRING THE SMASH COMMUNITY TOGETHER

[Ulevo]

Aside from L-canceling and Wave Dashing you are telling me all of the mechanics in Melee where there on purpose? Even the CGs in Melee? I would like to know what proff you have of thtat as I know L-cacneling was impletented purposfully and that Sakurai said he left Wave Dashing on purpose. But what makes you think all the other mechanics in Melee also aren't bugs or oversites either?

Going off of the pressumption only L-caneling and Wave Dashing being removed from Brawl. Does that really constitutes it to be called a watered down version? The game has a totally different engine and play style from Melee and removing L-cancleing and Wave Dashing furthered that playstyle that differs Brawl from Melee making them 2 entirely different games and not one being X version of the other. Mechanics (intentional or note) are not the only things to keep games different or simmilir, the engine, physics, and playstyle also matter. Braw is different in pretty much regard making it a different game from Melee and not just a watered down version or better version or equal version of Melee it makes it it's own game.

This is the problem you and many of your following have when it comes to this specific conversation; you latch on to L-Cancelling and Wavedashing. There are so many things that were removed from Melee on to Brawl, and yet this distinctly comes up every time. Until people educate themselves, this problem will continue to circle itself.

Most of the mechanics in Melee were not incredibly elaborate or unintuitive to the player to utilize. Heck, a lot of them were taught on the Dojo and in the manual. Powershielding was obviously intentional. Being able to jump out of Fox and Falco's reflector is obvious intentional. Wallgrappling is obviously intentional. Crouch cancelling is obviously intentional. Dash dancing is merely using the ability to dash left after immediately dashing right, and vice versa, mechanics that were obviously intentional. Dash cancelling, being able to crouch out of a run, was obviously intentional. Light shielding was obviously intentional. Double Jump Cancelling, a term coined to describe the way Yoshi and Ness's double jumps worked with aerials, was obviously intentional. Bomb jumping, a recovery technique made possible by the way Samus's bombs caused her to hault on horizontal momentum in the air might may or may not have been intended as an applicable way to recover, but the design of the down B was intentional. Were chain grabs intentional? They're a side effect of a characters throw trajectories and distances. There are too many of them in the game to be overlooked. And considering that the PAL version removed or nerfed some of them, but left most of them in, I would say that they were intentional.

You presume I believe Brawl is watered down because it removes 2 pieces of a much large puzzle, and that is a false presumption. The mere fact that you can't legitimately combo in Brawl alone changes things drastically, and it isn't even a specific technique.

And this isn't even talking about all the blatantly obvious bug problems Brawl has that not only negatively effects the player, but the balance of the cast. That's a discussion worth having by itself.

 

[Ulevo]

@El Dude - I watched all of Saturday and Sunday

@OP

This is where unity will be extremely difficult. These are only two opinions, but I wouldn't be surprised if the general consensus of Melee players felt similarly. If they didn't, BB would be rivaling or outdoing P:M right now, as it removes most (they didn't get the input delay (yet?)) of Brawl's objective problems.

Removing Brawl's objective problems isn't enough: the game has to have Melee mechanics to be successful or good to them. If it doesn't, they won't support the game (which is fine), and they may even bash it (which doesn't help anyone). There's a very low chance of returning to 100% Melee mechanics and then some, so don't get your hopes up on unity.

The best chance we have at unity is just leaving each other alone. It's sad, but I think that's the best case scenario. I hope I'm wrong.

It isn't about having "Melee mechanics." It's about having enough mechanics in the system for there to be a sufficient level of depth. Smash Bros. 64 is a deeper game than Brawl is. I guarantee you that if Melee didn't exist and we went from 64 to Brawl, we'd have people raising their eyebrows about that too. It's just that Melee had even more in the system to offer than 64, thus the disparity between the games is even greater.

 

[El Duderino]

The Balanced Brawl comparison is more applicable to something like Melee:SD Remix. It's a balance patch to the game, whereas Project M is more of a re-interpretation with lots of creative discretion.

Of the mods, P:M feels the most like an actual Smash sequel, which is the primary reason it has seen the most traction. Many tournament players would rather play vanilla Melee of Brawl than a patched version, but P:M, as a separate game, is something they're more inclined to pick up.

 

[BaPr]

So. Many. Arguments. I guess the title of this thread isn't accurate (note, this post I made is just a joke)

 

[mimgrim]

This is the problem you and many of your following have when it comes to this specific conversation; you latch on to L-Cancelling and Wavedashing. There are so many things that were removed from Melee on to Brawl, and yet this distinctly comes up every time. Until people educate themselves, this problem will continue to circle itself.

Most of the mechanics in Melee were not incredibly elaborate or unintuitive to the player to utilize. Heck, a lot of them were taught on the Dojo and in the manual. Powershielding was obviously intentional. Being able to jump out of Fox and Falco's reflector is obvious intentional. Wallgrappling is obviously intentional. Crouch cancelling is obviously intentional. Dash dancing is merely using the ability to dash left after immediately dashing right, and vice versa, mechanics that were obviously intentional. Dash cancelling, being able to crouch out of a run, was obviously intentional. Light shielding was obviously intentional. Double Jump Cancelling, a term coined to describe the way Yoshi and Ness's double jumps worked with aerials, was obviously intentional. Bomb jumping, a recovery technique made possible by the way Samus's bombs caused her to hault on horizontal momentum in the air might may or may not have been intended as an applicable way to recover, but the design of the down B was intentional. Were chain grabs intentional? They're a side effect of a characters throw trajectories and distances. There are too many of them in the game to be overlooked. And considering that the PAL version removed or nerfed some of them, but left most of them in, I would say that they were intentional.

You presume I believe Brawl is watered down because it removes 2 pieces of a much large puzzle, and that is a false presumption. The mere fact that you can't legitimately combo in Brawl alone changes things drastically, and it isn't even a specific technique.

And this isn't even talking about all the blatantly obvious bug problems Brawl has that not only negatively effects the player, but the balance of the cast. That's a discussion worth having by itself.

I chose L-cancle and Wave Dash because they are the most common examples. Some of what you mentioned was also in Brawl to, however that is besides the point. But all you are looking at are mechanics. Mechanics aren't the only thing that matters. Has it ever occured to you that they took out thos mechanics to have a different game and not just a beef-uped version or watered down version of the game? Look at what you saidn in the setence about combos, "changes things drastically", if things are changed drastically then how can it be a different version of X game? It isn't, it is a new game entirely. Brawl has a whole different engine, physics, and playstyle to it then Melee. Heck it does even have different mechanics (on purpose or not, lacking or not). Making it a whole different game from Melee and not jsut a version of Melee. If Brawl was truly a watered down version of Melee wouldn't it have a enging almost like it did for Melee just a bit worse? Brawl had a completly different enging altogether with it ebing bad or good being up to each specific person as it is subjective. Wouldn't it have the same physics as Melee just a bit worse? Brawl had compeltly different physics from Melee and again it is up to each person to decide if they like them or not. Woudln't it have just had a slightly worse playstyle from Melee? Brawl had a completly different play style from Melee which is again up for each specific person to decide good or bad on their own. Just because it lacks X mechanics yet keeps Y mechanic doesn't make it a watered down version. In the end Brawl ends up being a totally different game from Melee.

 

[Ulevo]

To illustrate the problem I was describing about the transition from Melee to Brawl and the removal of mechanics further, I'll provide two examples.

Dash Cancelling. You simply hit down while you're running, and it makes you crouch. Pretty simple. Yet it has an exponential amount of uses for being as basic as it is. Just from being able to crouch out of a run, your approach options skyrocket. You can down tilt, you can jab, you can use smash attacks, you can even use a standing grab. If you have enough dexterity control, you can even use tilts.

Since Brawl removed this, you're forced in to a position where your approach options are dwindled significantly. Now if you want to approach from a run, you need to resort to a dash attack, a special, a jump, or a shield.

Crouching has absolutely nothing to do with how fast your character functions, and yet a simple technique like this being removed not only made Brawl have less depth, but it made it slower. If you wanted to do anything I mentioned as an option from Dash Cancelling in Brawl, you're forced to walk to your opponent.

My second example is sweetspotting ledges. This concept wasn't removed, it was just made irrelevant since you will always grab the ledge perfectly in Brawl automatically thanks to auto ledge grabs.

In Melee and 64, if you wanted to prevent yourself from being hit away from the stage from someone who was on the stage, you needed to make sure you caught the ledge at the absolute peak of your jump. That way your hurtbox didn't poke above the ledge and leave you exposed. However, there's a mind game to this. If you leave that much room open for the ledge to be grabbed, your opponent can grab the ledge on you and ledge hog you, causing you to fall to your death. What this means is that there are times when you want to recover above the stage line, and sometimes you do not. This creates psychological depth between the players.

Obviously with auto ledge grabs, this concept is meaningless now, and you always get to recover for free in the example I gave.

The ultimate problem here is that it wasn't that Brawl was made different, it was that it removed mechanics and concepts from Smash and either replaced them with linear, simple replacement solutions, or absolutely nothing at all. There was no 1:1 conversion on what was taken away and what was introduced as new.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

To illustrate the problem I was describing about the transition from Melee to Brawl and the removal of mechanics further, I'll provide two examples.

Dash Cancelling. You simply hit down while you're running, and it makes you crouch. Pretty simple. Yet it has an exponential amount of uses for being as basic as it is. Just from being able to crouch out of a run, your approach options skyrocket. You can down tilt, you can jab, you can use smash attacks, you can even use a standing grab. If you have enough dexterity control, you can even use tilts.

Since Brawl removed this, you're forced in to a position where your approach options are dwindled significantly. Now if you want to approach from a run, you need to resort to a dash attack, a special, a jump, or a shield.

Crouching has absolutely nothing to do with how fast your character functions, and yet a simple technique like this being removed not only made Brawl have less depth, but it made it slower. If you wanted to do anything I mentioned as an option from Dash Cancelling in Brawl, you're forced to walk to your opponent.

My second example is sweetspotting ledges. This concept wasn't removed, it was just made irrelevant since you will always grab the ledge perfectly in Brawl automatically thanks to auto ledge grabs.

In Melee and 64, if you wanted to prevent yourself from being hit away from the stage from someone who was on the stage, you needed to make sure you caught the ledge at the absolute peak of your jump. That way your hurtbox didn't poke above the ledge and leave you exposed. However, there's a mind game to this. If you leave that much room open for the ledge to be grabbed, your opponent can grab the ledge on you and ledge hog you, causing you to fall to your death. What this means is that there are times when you want to recover above the stage line, and sometimes you do not. This creates psychological depth between the players.

Obviously with auto ledge grabs, this concept is meaningless now, and you always get to recover for free in the example I gave.

The ultimate problem here is that it wasn't that Brawl was made different, it was that it removed mechanics and concepts from Smash and either replaced them with linear, simple replacement solutions, or absolutely nothing at all. There was no 1:1 conversion on what was taken away and what was introduced as new.

To be honest. If tripping and hit stuns were included in Brawl, I would have enjoyed the game much more. Due to these two simple things, I dislike the game. They purposely tried to make the game catered to a certain group. I do enjoy depth, but having those two things in the game really ruined it for me. I can adapt to a game with the removal of some techniques.

 

[Ulevo]

I chose L-cancle and Wave Dash because they are the most common examples. Some of what you mentioned was also in Brawl to, however that is besides the point. But all you are looking at are mechanics. Mechanics aren't the only thing that matters. Has it ever occured to you that they took out thos mechanics to have a different game and not just a beef-uped version or watered down version of the game? Look at what you saidn in the setence about combos, "changes things drastically", if things are changed drastically then how can it be a different version of X game? It isn't, it is a new game entirely. Brawl has a whole different engine, physics, and playstyle to it then Melee. Heck it does even have different mechanics (on purpose or not, lacking or not). Making it a whole different game from Melee and not jsut a version of Melee. If Brawl was truly a watered down version of Melee wouldn't it have a enging almost like it did for Melee just a bit worse? Brawl had a completly different enging altogether with it ebing bad or good being up to each specific person as it is subjective. Wouldn't it have the same physics as Melee just a bit worse? Brawl had compeltly different physics from Melee and again it is up to each person to decide if they like them or not. Woudln't it have just had a slightly worse playstyle from Melee? Brawl had a completly different play style from Melee which is again up for each specific person to decide good or bad on their own. Just because it lacks X mechanics yet keeps Y mechanic doesn't make it a watered down version. In the end Brawl ends up being a totally different game from Melee.

Um, none of those things are in Brawl.

Has it ever occurred to you that he took those mechanics out to make the game intentionally simple so that newer players and experienced players were on a level playing field? It wasn't to make the game different, it was to simplify it. Sakurai admits to this himself.

Brawl does have an engine almost like Melee but worse. There are not many things in Brawl's engine that are foreign to Melee or Smash 64. It's the introduction of new characters, stages, and the removal of a LOT of **** that makes it different.

As for the playstyle of Brawl, it's played the way it is because there is an underwhelming amount of offensive options, and the defensive options are overpowered. It pigeonholes you in to a style of play. And because you can't combo, you're forced in to playing an elaborate game of tag and baiting.

Melee and 64 gave you the option. You could play campy, or you could go aggro. Both styles were legitimate, and allowed for player expression.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Um, none of those things are in Brawl.

Has it ever occurred to you that he took those mechanics out to make the game intentionally simple so that newer players and experienced players were on a level playing field? It wasn't to make the game different, it was to simplify it. Sakurai admits to this himself.

Brawl does have an engine almost like Melee but worse. There are not many things in Brawl's engine that are foreign to Melee or Smash 64. It's the introduction of new characters, stages, and the removal of a LOT of **** that makes it different.

As for the playstyle of Brawl, it's played the way it is because there is an underwhelming amount of offensive options, and the defensive options are overpowered. It pigeonholes you in to a style of play. And because you can't combo, you're forced in to playing an elaborate game of tag and baiting.

Melee and 64 gave you the option. You could play campy, or you could go aggro. Both styles were legitimate, and allowed for player expression.

Just treat it as a different game...stop treating the games are a +1 or -1 of the previous installment. Its obvious that he's not making Melee 2.0. This is mimgrim's main point. Unless a game rehashes the same exact engine, includes the same exact characters, includes exactly everything the same while polishing it, its not the same game.

 

[mimgrim]

Um, none of those things are in Brawl.

So you're saying Power Shielding, and Dash Dancing aren't in Brawl. Have you ever played Brawl? Both of those things are in there.

 

[Ulevo]

So you're saying Power Shielding, and Dash Dancing aren't in Brawl. Have you ever played Brawl? Both of those things are in there.

Dash dancing is not only incredibly difficult to do comparatively, but the reasons you used Dash Dancing in the first place are gone. Dash Dancing gave your character a large area of zone because of how much it extended your approach options. To illustrate what I'm talking about, watch this video. He explains it in great detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw

Because your dash dances have to be extremely short, it loses a lot of its application. Also, because tripping is in the game, you're not going to voluntarily increase your actions per minute on the ground with dashing in case you trip at an inappropriate time.

You're correct. Dash dancing is in Brawl. But it might as well not be. It has almost no use and its a risk to use.

And powershielding is not in Brawl. Perfectshielding and Powershielding are different. Powershielding reflects projectiles back at your opponent. Perfectshield does not.

 

[BaPr]

Am I the only one that like Perfect shielding more than power shielding? Sure it doesn't reflect projectiles, but if you want to do that, just use people like fox.

 

[Ulevo]

Just treat it as a different game...stop treating the games are a +1 or -1 of the previous installment. Its obvious that he's not making Melee 2.0. This is mimgrim's main point. Unless a game rehashes the same exact engine, includes the same exact characters, includes exactly everything the same while polishing it, its not the same game.

Who says I don't treat them as different games? That isn't the point.

The point is that when the Smash community were highly anticipating a new game, we weren't just given a different game. We were given a less rewarding, less exciting, less deep, poorly balanced, bug ridden sequel. Your retort to this is that we're upset that it wasn't Melee 2, and that isn't the problem here. The problem is that we were given a sequel that was purposely made to prevent competitive play, and wasn't playtested properly. Anyone on these boards would understandably be upset.

I'm a Melee advocate, and even I don't care if Smash Wii U is a Melee 2 or not. I care that it doesn't repeat all of the mistakes Brawl did. You need to understand this. It isn't difficult.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Who says I don't treat them as different games? That isn't the point.

The point is that when the Smash community were highly anticipating a new game, we weren't just given a different game. We were given a less rewarding, less exciting, less deep, poorly balanced, bug ridden sequel. Your retort to this is that we're upset that it wasn't Melee 2, and that isn't the problem here. The problem is that we were given a sequel that was purposely made to prevent competitive play, and wasn't playtested properly. Anyone on these boards would understandably be upset.

I'm a Melee advocate, and even I don't care if Smash Wii U is a Melee 2 or not. I care that it doesn't repeat all of the mistakes Brawl did. You need to understand this. It isn't difficult.

I enjoy Melee more than any game in the series currently. I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying isn't the point... I wasn't arguing with what you were just saying in this post that I quoted. I was arguing that there's nothing to really compare since they are separate games. There really is no point in trying to prove that. I already understand the semantics of both, you don't need to prove this to me.

Also, I think sequel is the wrong word here especially since stories do not matter. If you are referring to sequel as in comparing the games, you just stated yourself that it wasn't the point...(even though you were comparing both games earlier). =P

 

[BaPr]

You know what's weird to me? People say that the Wii U is gonna have amazing graphics, and that is a reason why it is SSSOOOO much better than the 3DS version. But when it comes to melee vs brawl, that is never a subject.

 

[Ulevo]

I enjoy Melee more than any game in the series currently. I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying isn't the point... I wasn't arguing with what you were just saying in this post that I quoted. I was arguing that there's nothing to really compare since they are separate games. There really is no point in trying to prove that. I already understand the semantics of both, you don't need to prove this to me.


Also, I think sequel is the wrong word here especially since stories do not matter. If you are referring to sequel as in comparing the games, you just stated yourself that it wasn't the point...(even though you were comparing both games earlier). =P

I'm calling it a sequel because it is was the next instalment. That's really all it is.

Also. I think Brawl and Melee have a lot more in common than you or others give credit for, as I alluded to in my post detailing how Brawl is more Melee 0.5 than a fresh game all on its own. I mean this purely from a competitive and mechanical standpoint.

To give you an idea of just how similar they are, the Project M team was able to literally copy and paste the coding from Melee's disc in to Brawl to achieve a large portion of what the mod has become. In fact, if they couldn't do that, I don't think Project M would even exist right now.

You know what's weird to me? People say that the Wii U is gonna have amazing graphics, and that is a reason why it is SSSOOOO much better than the 3DS version. But when it comes to melee vs brawl, that is never a subject.

That's largely because graphics are superficial, and don't make or break the experience unless it makes the game unplayable or the game is strictly centred around graphic appeal.

 

[BaPr]

I'm calling it a sequel because it is was the next instalment. That's really all it is.

Also. I think Brawl and Melee have a lot more in common than you or others give credit for, as I alluded to in my post detailing how Brawl is more Melee 0.5 than a fresh game all on its own. I mean this purely from a competitive and mechanical standpoint.

To give you an idea of just how similar they are, the Project M team was able to literally copy and paste the coding from Melee's disc in to Brawl to achieve a large portion of what the mod has become. In fact, if they couldn't do that, I don't think Project M would even exist right now.

WOAH WOAH WOAH, I hope you aren't saying Brawl is a sequel to Melee. Wouldn't Melee be the sequel to 64 and Brawl is the sesequel to 64 (I don't know what an actual name for that is).

 

[Ulevo]

WOAH WOAH WOAH, I hope you aren't saying Brawl is a sequel to Melee. Wouldn't Melee be the sequel to 64 and Brawl is the sesequel to 64 (I don't know what an actual name for that is).

Considering a sequel entails a release after, and not before, then no. But if you wanted to talk about the games development and what it added to the experience, it would mostly go Brawl, then 64, then Melee.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

WOAH WOAH WOAH, I hope you aren't saying Brawl is a sequel to Melee. Wouldn't Melee be the sequel to 64 and Brawl is the sesequel to 64 (I don't know what an actual name for that is).

I think by sequel he means sequence. That its just the name of the game with the same basis. (The only thing is that the basis differs per game). Sakurai confirmed Melee was for the hardcore. Sakurai confirmed that Brawl was for newcomers. There's really nothing else more to discuss about this topic...is there?

Also. I think Brawl and Melee have a lot more in common than you or others give credit for, as I alluded to in my post detailing how Brawl is more Melee 0.5 than a fresh game all on its own. I mean this purely from a competitive and mechanical standpoint.

To give you an idea of just how similar they are, the Project M team was able to literally copy and paste the coding from Melee's disc in to Brawl to achieve a large portion of what the mod has become. In fact, if they couldn't do that, I don't think Project M would even exist right now.

You are comparing again...(you even said it wasn't the point). That's fine, they can have stuff in common, doesn't mean its the same game. Dota 2 and League of Legends have things in common. Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 have things in common. They play differently, regardless. This is the same thing here.

I also really doubt they have access to Melee's engine. All they did was change the code's values and continued play testing it until they came as close to Melee's. Its not exactly Melee's engine. They have said this many times during their creation of the mod. Hell, proof is from the site itself!:

From http://projectmgame.com/en/about:

Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:

• A fast-paced game
• with flowing, natural movement
• where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
• The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
• The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes, they do have access to Melee's engine. They literally ripped it from the disc. I followed the Project M project since its inception and was part of the development team for a very brief time before I had to opt out of it. The reason it isn't exactly like Melee though is because there were still some things that couldn't be ported over perfectly, and there were other aspects that needed other detailing. Like, as an example, being able to copy and paste Melee's airdodge information allowed for say, Marth, to airdodge exactly how he did in Melee as far as frame data, length of distance travelled, velocity, et cetera. But they still needed to manually make a new code to make the Brawl airdodges work like Melee ones.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Yes, they do have access to Melee's engine. They literally ripped it from the disc. I followed the Project M project since its inception and was part of the development team for a very brief time before I had to opt out of it. The reason it isn't exactly like Melee though is because there were still some things that couldn't be ported over perfectly, and there were other aspects that needed other detailing. Like, as an example, being able to copy and paste Melee's airdodge information allowed for say, Marth, to airdodge exactly how he did in Melee as far as frame data, length of distance travelled, velocity, et cetera. But they still needed to manually make a new code to make the Brawl airdodges work like Melee ones.

I'd rather see a source before continuing that conversation further. =)

 

[BaPr]

How about we burn all the Brawl and Melee disks and start at 64 where there are barely any arguments.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

How about we burn all the Brawl and Melee disks and start at 64 where there are barely any arguments.

Or just stop comparing different games. Different games are different. =D

 

[Ulevo]

I'd rather see a source before continuing that conversation further. =)

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-338#post-11132096

If that's not good enough for you, then you'll have to go digging through the Project M social thread yourself to find a developer like Dantarion talking about it. The threads too big for me to waste time doing that, and they've deleted a lot of their old videos showcasing this because they want to make sure outdated releases are not in the limelight for public scrutiny of their current builds. Either that or I just couldn't find them.

EDIT: Actually, lower in that thread, TSON addresses some question about the matter. He's part of the team. http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-338#post-11133969

Or just stop comparing different games. Different games are different. =D

As much as I like it when everyone gets along, ignoring the topic people are divided about is not the solution to a problem. In fact the only reason Sakurai took out tripping and is trying to appeal to a true wider audience now is because people like us were vocal about it in discussions like this.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

There's really nothing being discussed in that thread. I also do not feel like looking for it either, so I'll stand neutral on that topic. Besides a bunch of people speculating on what the developers were doing with the game and [TSON] replying with this and only this (at least for the next five pages): Actually we did all of the attributes.

Which makes me think I'm even more correct....since he's saying that he didn't copy from Melee, but rather did things himself.


Huh? You are jumping from topic to topic. What topic are we talking about now?

First we talked about comparing games which I said was pointless. You agreed, then did it anyway. Now its about being vocal so an Eastern game designer can hear what we say?

Who is avoiding the topic? Being divided is going to happen regardless. People are going to disagree regardless. I've never seen something where everyone agreed it was a good thing. When change happens, people complain...its common. What we are discussing has no relevance to what Smash 4 will be like. He's already decided everything that will be in the game. Now all it is, is working on the game till its complete. I doubt our say on this matter will reflect what will happen in the game. The only thing I think might have an impact is what happened at EVO, and even then I'm skeptical that he didn't even watch it.

 

[Vkrm]

Why is it unfair to compare brawl and melee again?

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Why is it unfair to compare brawl and melee again?

Only cause he compared them and it wasn't the point of this topic. =P I just keep restating that when he tries to compare.

The subject in general is just old and we already know the answers to it. Everything that anyone can say about it has been said before.

 

[grizby2]

I keep hearing people say brawl's bugs affecting the gameplay.

..what bugs are they talking about?
everytime I play brawl, ive never encountered a game-inhibiting bug.

 

[Ulevo]

There's really nothing being discussed in that thread. I also do not feel like looking for it either, so I'll stand neutral on that topic. Besides a bunch of people speculating on what the developers were doing with the game and [TSON] replying with this and only this (at least for the next five pages): Actually we did all of the attributes.

All I'm going to say is that you're going to have to take my word for it. If you don't, I don't really care. I'm not digging through a roughly 3000ish page thread looking for a direct quote for you when this information is common knowledge to anyone that follows the Project M scene. The ISO for Melee was cracked, and it's the main reason why they have things as precise as they do with characters, stages, and mechanics.

I keep hearing people say brawl's bugs affecting the gameplay.

..what bugs are they talking about?
everytime I play brawl, ive never encountered a game-inhibiting bug.

Some of it is bugs, some of it is poor design, some of it is oversights and lack of playtesting.

An example of a bug would be Bowser being able to Claw Hop. A more relevant bug would be Meta Knight being able to reuse aerial Shuttle Loop on ledges and platforms because the game believes that Meta Knight has landed based on his position relevant to the floor of the stage but he doesn't suffer from any landing lag.

An example of poor design would be Pokemon Trainer. Sakurai introduced move decay in to Brawl so that it also affects knockback, not just damage percent. On top of this he gave Pokemon Trainer fatigue, so essentially has two forms of it. And if I recall correctly, the way that functions is that decay starts to count down from either a minute and a half or two minutes, and for every action you make, it takes a second off of that timer. Needless to say, Smashers use a lot of actions per minute and it doesn't take long for your Pokemon to have twice the amount of induced decay. Needless to say there's no reason for this.

EDIT: Here's a thread detailing how stamina works. It's been a while so I didn't quite remember. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=131564


An example of an oversight and poor playtesting is Marth being able to infinitely grab release Ness. I'm sure you're quite familiar with that. Another is the problem characters like Marth and Squirtle, and I think a few others suffer for with their Up B. When you Up B and grab the ledge it stores the lag as if you had landed on the stage, so if you hop on the stage or land on it in any way outside of say doing an attack that would otherwise overtake the lag, your character will experience the same type of lag that you would if you used a grouded Up B and landed on the stage. Crap like this heavily influences match ups.

 

[The Real Gamer]

This thread in a nutshell:

OP makes a thread claiming to want to "bring the Smash community together."

Then goes on to bash Melee players in his first post:

This is what I hope for out of SSB4, but I know Melee players are stubborn and will still be Melee Or Die -__-

Melee players get offended and start defending themselves.

Even more debating breaks out.

Nice job, OP!

 

[Renji64]

I dont understand the need to bash other communities at all when they are basically 2 different games. Hell, I dont even understand how you can call a game worse then another when they arent supposed to be amazingly similar in the first place besides concepts. You like Melee and dont like Brawl? Play Melee. You like Brawl and dont like Melee? Play Brawl. You like Brawl and Melee? Play both. But dont be an idiot and yell at the subjective differences between 2 products if the original project is still available to be played.

Another thing I will never understand is why people use speed as an argument. I dont give a damn about speed when I play games unless im in a hurry to do something. I play for fun and sport.

Aside from L-canceling and Wave Dashing you are telling me all of the mechanics in Melee where there on purpose? Even the CGs in Melee? I would like to know what proff you have of thtat as I know L-cacneling was impletented purposfully and that Sakurai said he left Wave Dashing on purpose. But what makes you think all the other mechanics in Melee also aren't bugs or oversites either?

Going off of the pressumption only L-caneling and Wave Dashing being removed from Brawl. Does that really constitutes it to be called a watered down version? The game has a totally different engine and play style from Melee and removing L-cancleing and Wave Dashing furthered that playstyle that differs Brawl from Melee making them 2 entirely different games and not one being X version of the other. Mechanics (intentional or note) are not the only things to keep games different or simmilir, the engine, physics, and playstyle also matter. Braw is different in pretty much regard making it a different game from Melee and not just a watered down version or better version or equal version of Melee it makes it it's own game.

It is clearly watered down lol Sakurai said the game was for newcomers. it doesn't get anymore clear than that.

 

[grizby2]

Some of it is bugs, some of it is poor design, some of it is oversights and lack of playtesting.

An example of a bug would be Bowser being able to Claw Hop. A more relevant bug would be Meta Knight being able to reuse aerial Shuttle Loop on ledges because the game believes that Meta Knight has landed based on his position relevant to the floor of the stage but he doesn't suffer from any landing lag.

An example of poor design would be Pokemon Trainer. Sakurai introduced move decay in to Brawl so that it also affects knockback, not just damage percent. On top of this he gave Pokemon Trainer fatigue, so essentially has two forms of it. And if I recall correctly, the way that functions is that decay starts to count down from either a minute and a half or two minutes, and for every action you make, it takes a second off of that timer. Needless to say, Smashers use a lot of actions per minute and it doesn't take long for your Pokemon to have twice the amount of induced decay. Needless to say there's no reason for this.

An example of an oversight and poor playtesting is Marth being able to infinitely grab release Ness. I'm sure you're quite familiar with that.

usually small bugs like claw hopping don't really affect me as a player.

metaknight not suffering from landing lag from shuttle loop aerial ..a bug? you know..that kinda sounds like..L-canceling... hrmm

I think pokemon trainers fatigue system actually complemnts the character. we actually should have expected it, given the anime references. the point of that character wasn't "being able to choose from 3 pokemon," it was "having to learn to use all 3 pokemon as a whole".
most gamers don't like having their options taken away from them, and as a result, the idea of pokemon fatigue was frowned upon. very few people accept the fatigue system, im certainly one of those few obviously .

ness's grab release (along with other characters) is a game oversight. i'll give you that one.

if Smash 4 really uses the brawl engine as a base, then its a pretty genius idea.
all those years of playing brawl..
finding bugs..
the exploits..
telling each other what could have been better..

call me crazy, but when 2014 rolls around, we might discover that Brawl was a world-wide 6-year long Beta-test that millions of people participated in.
very very clever...

 

[Strong Badam]

for this to happen, smash 4 needs to be good. posts on a message board about the community needing to "come together" doesn't mean **** when the reason it's split is because nintendo can't release a good game. much of the community play melee or pm because they think they're good competitive games, while another faction plays brawl because it's the most recently released smash game. there's nothing wrong with that, but 99% of them are going to drop brawl the second smash 4 comes out, meaning it's fairly unlikely our community will continue to be split. the only thing left, then, is to appeal to those playing 64/melee/pm. good luck, nintendo.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

Literally sums up the entire elitist competitive Smash community.

 

[Mr. OC]

Literally sums up the entire elitist competitive Smash community.

Rofl

 

[Ulevo]

usually small bugs like claw hopping don't really affect me as a player.

metaknight not suffering from landing lag from shuttle loop aerial ..a bug? you know..that kinda sounds like..L-canceling... hrmm

I think pokemon trainers fatigue system actually complemnts the character. we actually should have expected it, given the anime references. the point of that character wasn't "being able to choose from 3 pokemon," it was "having to learn to use all 3 pokemon as a whole".
most gamers don't like having their options taken away from them, and as a result, the idea of pokemon fatigue was frowned upon. very few people accept the fatigue system, im certainly one of those few obviously .

ness's grab release (along with other characters) is a game oversight. i'll give you that one.

if Smash 4 really uses the brawl engine as a base, then its a pretty genius idea.
all those years of playing brawl..
finding bugs..
the exploits..
telling each other what could have been better..

call me crazy, but when 2014 rolls around, we might discover that Brawl was a world-wide 6-year long Beta-test that millions of people participated in.
very very clever...

L-Cancelling was an intentional technique described in the Smash manual and on the Dojo. Meta Knight renewing his Shuttle Loop was not, nor was it something he even needed.

Even if the idea for Pokemon Trainers fatigue wasn't a bad one (which it was), it was implemented poorly. Having 30% of your knockback power taken away from you on top of move decay is terrible. It makes it almost impossible to kill. And it's not like you can gimp people in Brawl when you're fighting on the moon.

 

[grizby2]

L-Cancelling was an intentional technique described in the Smash manual and on the Dojo. Meta Knight renewing his Shuttle Loop was not, nor was it something he even needed.

Even if the idea for Pokemon Trainers fatigue wasn't a bad one (which it was), it was implemented poorly. Having 30% of your knockback power taken away from you on top of move decay is terrible. It makes it almost impossible to kill. And it's not like you can gimp people in Brawl when you're fighting on the moon.

when you fight grizby, you aren't fighting on the moon,

YOU'RE FIGHTING IN HELL.

 

[Vale]

hey guys just remember the smash community is #oneunit unless you don't play melee then forget you!

no but seriously let's just play smash and stuff guys. wii u/3ds will be great, just like all the other ones.

 

[Mr. OC]

nope i'm an elitist and a huge ****ing nostalgiafag anything passed the gamecube era is bad no acceptions

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I knew this would happen, but I clicked the link anyways...

I hate being right...