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Brawl is the best Smash game.

FrankTheStud

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
248
NNID
FrankDaStud
I think that there is a tie between Smash 4 and 64 being the most tied. There really isn't no ''non-viable'' character in 64, but I guess we'll have to see how the Sm4sh meta grows in the balance aspect, so I think it's unfair to judge its balance as of now, but pretty balanced noneoftheless, good post. :)
Thanks dude! :)
 

Blue Warrior

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
174
I doubt smash 4 will make 52+ characters all equally viable.

If you can pull that off, you are a god of game design and balance.
Making 52 characters in the same environment equally viable is virtually impossible. It could be said that 64 is more balanced than 4 given that every character there has a lethal skill ceiling, but for 4 to have been able to make every character viable at all is extremely impressive, especially given how vastly different certain characters are in gameplay.
 

Spaghetti Sammy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
238
Location
Notournaments, Wisconsin
NNID
FreshBagels
3DS FC
0104-0256-0397
Wha- No.
Smash 4 is basically "Good Brawl" where the top tier character isn't so hilariously broken that they made a new tier just for them.
Smash 4 is just better.
(Melee and Project M have their own thing, but are my favorite competitive Smash games)
 

Dhillz521

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
160
Location
Hidden Palace
i can tell you're a casual player but wiiu/3ds are garbage, 3 hit combos at best, rewarding campy and defensive gameplay

melee is superior competitively by far

this is smashboards, we play the games competitively, and brawl is garbage fro that standpoint
Once again you're probably one of those people who can't play Brawl without PM.
So what if I do things like 3 Combos. So what....
EDIT:You also said this is Smash Boards. But YOU act like this is ''Melee Boards"
Also your probably never played Smash 4 you can do WAY more then 3 hit combos.
So go to "Melee Boards" shall you?
 
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Dhillz521

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
160
Location
Hidden Palace
You know what... I just realized something. Everyone has there own taste in smash bros people play 64. People play Melee.
people play Brawl. And people play 3DS/WiiU. So Brawl being the best game may be your opinion. But people have other choices. So now lets just stop the fighting here. And just do what we wanna do. Okay.
It's fine to be a causal player. It's fine to be competive. And believe it or not its fine to have to play PM over Brawl.
People have taste, and opinions. Remember that...
 
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Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
I do wish that some Brawl character's movesets had made it onto Smash 4 though (like Kirby in general, and ZSS's old upB... I miss her tether spike's juggling pressure and combo-ability!).
 

Elin

Your face is strange... Is it always like that?
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
235
Location
Pora Elinu
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ShinySilverEevee
3DS FC
5301-1189-1305
Reading the whole thing was quite... interesting, to say the least.
 

Tino

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
7,211
Location
Spartanburg, South Carolina
NNID
FaustinoRojo10
3DS FC
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Switch FC
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I will say Brawl was an alright game. It would've been better without the random tripping mechanic though, which I'm happy it's absent in Sm4sh. I wouldn't say Brawl is the best Smash game in the series since that is your opinion. My favorite Smash game in the series is definitely Smash 64 with 3DS and Wii U at a close second. I enjoyed playing Brawl just as much as I'm enjoying Sm4sh but it's nowhere near being the best for me.
 

Sonic94

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
138
Location
The Internet.
Everyone here hate brawl. I can't even find brawl tornaments anymore. But if you think about it the only people who don't like brawl are a minority that likes to play smash bros in a very strange way.
Why do I say that? Because brawl has sold the most by far and I have never seen someone who doesn't like brawl outside of here and Tornaments.
People in the "competitive" community think that their rules are the "best".They turn all items off and ban 95 % of the levels. They only do 2v2 or 1v1. Why? Because tornament people decided they want smash bros to be a button masher. Their is WAY more strategy with items on. The way you place and use them greatly affects your ability in the match. They claim items off is to minimize cheap kills and randomness. While this is true for some items (poke balls come to mind) there is no reason they should ALL be banned ALL the time.
And this applies to the stages to. People try to emphasize "reads" but you can't really do it unless the player you are fighting is really bad because good players actively make sure they are not being predictable. It's just a guess. If "reads" where real then why are the heavyweight characters the worst in EVERY GAME. All that really seems to matter is tech skill and being able to input as many attacks per second as possible. Look at how button mashy characters Sheik, MetaKnight, and Fox are all very strong and how more deliberate characters like bowser, Ike, and Gannondorf are all very weak in comparison. It basically turns smash bros compitions into who can reserch the most tech during school and skip the most homework learning it and lose the most sleep improving your reaction time.
If you don't you lose. Doesn't matter how stupid you are if you play the game more you automatically win.


This set up is one of the main reasons meta knight was so powerful. The rule set benefits him in the same way that banning stages with platforms would benefit projectile campers and banning everything except walk off stages would benefit characters with bad recoveries. Take away the rulesets and suddenly he is much more balenced.

Brawl was more about using the strengths of your character and exploting the weaknesses of your oponents character. In melee it is literally nothing but tech spam and smash 4 is just having faster reflexes as their is no tech and the characters tend to not have any real advanteges or disadvantages against the others making everything feel a bit more like a mirror match.

Outside of the meta game is were it really shines though. And people forget how small the meta game really is.

Brawl had the best online.
In smash 4 you basically have two choices
1 only play on final destination with no items
2 play with all items on a random stage with four people that comes up as one of the mute city clones or that awful wrecking ball stage 98.7% of the time

In brawl you can turn any item on or off or pick any stage and your settings will be randomly selected from the other players choices.

In smash 4 the devs try to force you to play the way they want you to buy adding a terrible banning system
1 if you leave or disconnect you will have a ban
2 if you don't move enough(even if you still move a little bit) for 30 seconds you will be kicked and get a ban for disconnecting
3 you will be kicked for killing someone a lot in a free for all and get a ban for disconnecting
4 if you use peach and pluck an item out in 4 glory you will have ban for cheating
5 number 3 may be triggered by an item or assist trophy
6 number 3 May be triggered for no reason.
7 Butthurt tryhards can try to report you

In brawl you could do whatever you want. So player 2 is bothering you? Start an aliance with player 3 and go get him. So you are tired of a truce? Go crash that taunt party. Sick of fighting on battlefield? Go to hyrule and try to get a taunt party going. This was way more fun and let you have all kinds of interations with the other players. There was even a code
crouching means "I'm friendly"
Pink Captain Falcons down taunting are asking for a truce
Jabing someone once means "let's even the score so we can see who can survive the longest in sudden death"
Playing as the same character as someone means you want to start an aliance with him or that you are his rival
Sd ing after somone attacks you means "I don't want to fight"

There was always something to do in brawl but smash 4 and Melee just get old when you are at home.

The subspace emissary is epic.

The stage builder is much faster and more precise then the wii U one.

The graphics had a more gritty apearence that felt more like they belonged in a fighting game.

Best character selection.
Best soundtrack.
Has the best stage selection outside of tornaments. Brawl has very diverse stages such as
Wario wear
Pictochat
Newpork city
Ice climbers
Shadow Moses island
Hannenbow
Spear pillar
Pokemon stadium 2
Luigis mansion
And many more. smash 4 just has 29 clones of mute city the 3 tornament stages, a couple rehashes, and that one yoshi yarn level.

I'm not trying to force you to stop playing the smash games you like. But you should really treat brawl and its fans with more respect. If you use the rules that were designed with melee in mind then of course Melee will be good at that rulesets. But I believe brawl is stronger outside of that ruleset.
 

Delta Chae

The Observer
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
194
Location
Indiana
People, please ignore Sonic94. Much of what he has said is purely opinion but he treats it as fact. Not to mention the the very obvious chip on his shoulder against the competitive community which seems to be rooted in his inability to understand why things like items and stage hazards are not conducive to a healthy competitive environment.

It's probably not worth it to try to sway him.
 
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Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
I could bet $100.00 that I could sway him, but then no one would pay me, so I'll pass.
 

Sonic94

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
138
Location
The Internet.
People, please ignore Sonic94. Much of what he has said is purely opinion but he treats it as fact. Not to mention the the very obvious chip on his shoulder against the competitive community which seems to be rooted in his inability to understand why things like items and stage hazards are not conducive to a healthy competitive environment.

It's probably not worth it to try to sway him.
This is the response of someone who has been totally, utterly destroyed by an opposing argument.

Notice how desperate he sounds at first and how he wishes that people would not read my post. He may as well have said "NOPE NOTHING TO SEE HERE!" while waving his arms in the air. Then he grabs his opinion shield and tries to say that I don't know what I am talking about yet provides no counter argument.

pathetic......
 
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Delta Chae

The Observer
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
194
Location
Indiana
This is the response of someone who has been totally, utterly destroyed by an opposing argument.

Notice how desperate he sounds at first and how he wishes that people would not read my post. He may as well have said "NOPE NOTHING TO SEE HERE!" while waving his arms in the air. Then he grabs his opinion shield and tries to say that I don't know what I am talking about yet provides no counter argument.

pathetic......
I have an a refutation for every single one of your "points" so since you insist I'll tear them to shreds.

"But if you think about it the only people who don't like brawl are a minority that likes to play smash bros in a very strange way."

This is a statement made with no evidence to back it up. There are plenty of casual players who didn't like Brawl for one reason or another and there are plenty of casual players who like Brawl. To claim that the only people that didn't like Brawl were in the minority is an arrogant statement to make especially with no evidence to back it up.



"Why do I say that? Because brawl has sold the most by far and I have never seen someone who doesn't like brawl outside of here and Tornaments."

First of all: Sales numbers =/= quality. There are plenty of great games out there that sold like crap (Like Dragon's Dogma) and plenty of terrible games that sold great (Call of Duty Ghosts). Secondly, anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. Also, the raw number of copies sold for Brawl might be highest but a higher percentage of Gamecube owners owned Melee than the percentage of Wii owners who owned Brawl. To elaborate: the Gamecube sold 21.74 million units worldwide, Melee sold over 7 million units (An exact number has not been released so we'll just use 7 million). Meanwhile Brawl did sell 12.77 million copies BUT the Wii sold 101.52 million units. If we do the math then 32.2% of Gamecube owners owned a copy of Melee but only 12.6% of Wii owners owned a copy of Brawl.



"People in the "competitive" community think that their rules are the "best".They turn all items off and ban 95 % of the levels. They only do 2v2 or 1v1. Why? Because tornament people decided they want smash bros to be a button masher. Their is WAY more strategy with items on. The way you place and use them greatly affects your ability in the match. They claim items off is to minimize cheap kills and randomness. While this is true for some items (poke balls come to mind) there is no reason they should ALL be banned ALL the time."

They do all of that for good reason. The West Coast in the early years of Melee's metagame played tournaments with items on and only a few banned stages. People found out very quickly that it would not work, the rumor is that it was a Grand Finals set being determined by a Bob-omb spawning on top of someone as they threw out an attack that broke the camel's back. Not to mention that items by no means balance the game, items would only make the top tiers better and low tiers worse. The same applies to stages that are banned, they are banned because they either A: Give a disproportionate advantage to one or more character (Corneria for instance heavily favors Fox in Melee due to its extremely low ceiling making Fox's already powerful vertical KO potential completely broken), B: Possessing too many random elements so that the emphasis shifts to fighting the stage rather than fighting each-other scrolling stages are the biggest offender of this, or C: All of the above.
You seem to be incapable of understanding WHY items are banned. It's not because they don't take skill to use, nobody denies that there is skill in using items, the reason items are banned is because their spawns are completely random and often times unfair. Picture this, you're at Evo, it's Grand Finals, you've worked your way through the winner's bracket and your opponent is coming from loser's. It's game 5 last stock, you're on a fairly fresh stock at 50% and your opponent is getting thoroughly trashed with 130%. All you need to do is land one solid hit and the tournament is yours. Suddenly a beetle spawns next to your opponent, they pick it up, knock you into hitstun and then throw it at you while you can't air dodge. That would infuriate anyone because suddenly a game that was all but won was just lost because RNG decided to screw over one player. If items had set spawn locations at set times with an indication as to which item would spawn then we could talk about whether or not they are tournament worthy but as long as items spawns are random they will remain banned.
Doing 1v1 and 2v2s has nothing to do with wanting the game to be a button masher, it has to do with 1v1 placing emphasis on player to player interaction and 2v2 placing emphasis on teamwork and coordination. Once again I will point you to the West Coast which used 4 player free for all as the tournament standard early in Melee's competitive lifespan, the results were, to put it bluntly, a mess. The whole point of a tournament is to figure out who the most skilled player is, the problem with 4 player free for alls is that people know who the better player is so the lesser players will call a truce and gang up on the better player to eliminate a threat. If you don't think this would happen, it already has "King of Smash" Ken Hoang used to get ganged up on all the time during this phase of Melee's metagame, sometimes he would still win but more often than not he would lose. Once tournaments switched to the 1v1 and 2v2 format tournament results became a lot more consistent and therefore much more credible.



"And this applies to the stages to. People try to emphasize "reads" but you can't really do it unless the player you are fighting is really bad because good players actively make sure they are not being predictable. It's just a guess. If "reads" where real then why are the heavyweight characters the worst in EVERY GAME. All that really seems to matter is tech skill and being able to input as many attacks per second as possible. Look at how button mashy characters Sheik, MetaKnight, and Fox are all very strong and how more deliberate characters like bowser, Ike, and Gannondorf are all very weak in comparison. It basically turns smash bros compitions into who can reserch the most tech during school and skip the most homework learning it and lose the most sleep improving your reaction time.
If you don't you lose. Doesn't matter how stupid you are if you play the game more you automatically win."

See previous section about stages.
Reads are real and hard reads do happen sometimes among the top players. The problem is when you're RELYING on reads to secure KOs rather than using them as one possible method of doing so and that's why heavyweights are so bad because they NEED to get those hard reads to KO in the first place. Characters like Fox, Marth, and any other top tier characters CAN secure KOs using reads but they can also combo you to death, they can reliably bait you into an attack that they can punish, and they can also edgeguard or gimp you. Reads are ok when used as one possible method of KOing, using them as your ONLY method does not work and never will work. Ok, we get it, you don't like button mashers, in that case stay far away from any competitive fighting games because you're clearly not cut out for it. I also like your pathetic attempt at insulting tournament players. I didn't start doing tournaments until I got into college and I haven't lost any sleep nor have my grades suffered as a result. Not to mention that if you play stupidly it doesn't matter how many hours you have in the game, stupid play is stupid play no matter who's doing it. I've seen well seasoned players get taken down by fairly new players just because they were playing poorly, I've taken out a well seasoned player when they were playing poorly, it happens sometimes regardless of hours logged.



"This set up is one of the main reasons meta knight was so powerful. The rule set benefits him in the same way that banning stages with platforms would benefit projectile campers and banning everything except walk off stages would benefit characters with bad recoveries. Take away the rulesets and suddenly he is much more balenced."

Ummm..no. You don't know anything about competitive Smash whatsoever. There IS a stage without platforms, it's called Final Destination and it's considered one of the least balanced stages in competitive play while not being horrendously skewed toward one character or another. Meta Knight's dominance had NOTHING to do with stages you simpleton and EVERYTHING to do with how overwhelmingly powerful his kit was compared to everyone else. As for walk off stages, no, the reason they're banned is because someone can just camp as the blast zone, at this point one of two thing will happen A: the other player will approach, get grabbed, back thrown, and that's one stock gone regardless of percent or B: the camping player will get hit and lose their stock regardless of percent. Now this sounds fair right? Here's the problems with it, A: it's not interesting to watch in anyway whatsoever, and B: a player that knows what they're doing can make it so that if they're camping they will get the kill every single time.



"Brawl was more about using the strengths of your character and exploting the weaknesses of your oponents character. In melee it is literally nothing but tech spam and smash 4 is just having faster reflexes as their is no tech and the characters tend to not have any real advanteges or disadvantages against the others making everything feel a bit more like a mirror match."

First of all: bull****. Second of all: you are showing that once again you know NOTHING about competitive Smash. Melee is not tech spam, if it were then Chilean Fox player DARK would be the number one player in the world right now, want to know why he's not? Because his fundamentals (Spacing, not getting hit, match-ups, neutral game, punishes, DI, etc.) are extremely lacking compared to other top players (He gets beaten on a regular basis by other top players in his area), his extreme emphasis on tech skill worked for a while but people eventually figured out how to exploit the holes in his strategy. Melee has just as much emphasis on fundamentals as it does on tech skill, the first thing any starting Melee player will learn is that strong fundamentals with basic tech will take you far, bad fundamentals and all the tech in the world will amount to nothing but a bunch of flashy inefficient moves. Smash 4 is extremely similar to Brawl (Newsflash kid: Brawl had barely any tech to speak of either) so the fact that you are criticizing Smash 4 is extremely ironic and kind of pathetic.



"Outside of the meta game is were it really shines though. And people forget how small the meta game really is."

Do you even know what the metagame is? I don't think you do. The metagame IS tournaments regardless of what you think of it. To put it simply, to play the metagame means you play to win. This means using the optimal strategy REGARDLESS of how boring or cheap it might be. You might be unable to understand this but in tournaments there's money and pride on the line, any notion of "honor" is out the window and should not even be a consideration.



"Brawl had the best online.
In smash 4 you basically have two choices
1 only play on final destination with no items
2 play with all items on a random stage with four people that comes up as one of the mute city clones or that awful wrecking ball stage 98.7% of the time"

That would be fine, if Brawl online even worked in the first place. The few times I played Brawl online the lag and desynchronization was so bad that I was struggling to even figure out what the hell was going on. I am not the only person who had this problem, it was a universal criticism of Brawl. Don't try to tell me "Your connection sucks". I have the same connection quality now that I did 5 years ago and I can play Smash 4 online with very few problems.



"In brawl you can turn any item on or off or pick any stage and your settings will be randomly selected from the other players choices."

OR we can have a certain gametypes that players select from and they will only play in that style. While I do think For Glory is very poorly done it's much better than just saying "Pitch your votes in and we'll pick one at random" because inevitably you'll have someone who wants to go to Final Destination with no items and someone else who wants to go to 75m with all items on. While the separation in Smash 4 was very sloppily implemented, it at least ensures that people will be playing the kind of people they would want to play.



"In smash 4 the devs try to force you to play the way they want you to buy adding a terrible banning system
1 if you leave or disconnect you will have a ban
2 if you don't move enough(even if you still move a little bit) for 30 seconds you will be kicked and get a ban for disconnecting
3 you will be kicked for killing someone a lot in a free for all and get a ban for disconnecting
4 if you use peach and pluck an item out in 4 glory you will have ban for cheating
5 number 3 may be triggered by an item or assist trophy
6 number 3 May be triggered for no reason.
7 Butthurt tryhards can try to report you"

Number 1 will not happen the first few times you do it. If you really don't want to play the match then just SD until you're out (For Glory only).
Number 2 does not happen period because of the nature of this game, if you're standing still doing absolutely nothing for more than 5 seconds outside of possible mindgames you're playing wrong.
Number 3 is ridiculous, but almost nobody plays "For Fun" so it's a moot point.
Number 4 was patched.
Number 5 is redundant.
Number 6 does not happen that I know of.
Number 7 is true but those reports will be ignored 99 times out of a 100.



"In brawl you could do whatever you want. So player 2 is bothering you? Start an aliance with player 3 and go get him. So you are tired of a truce? Go crash that taunt party. Sick of fighting on battlefield? Go to hyrule and try to get a taunt party going. This was way more fun and let you have all kinds of interations with the other players. There was even a code
crouching means "I'm friendly"
Pink Captain Falcons down taunting are asking for a truce
Jabing someone once means "let's even the score so we can see who can survive the longest in sudden death"
Playing as the same character as someone means you want to start an aliance with him or that you are his rival
Sd ing after somone attacks you means "I don't want to fight""

This all sounds like something you pulled out of your ass. I've never heard of any instance of this happening anywhere from anyone.



"There was always something to do in brawl but smash 4 and Melee just get old when you are at home.

The subspace emissary is epic.

The stage builder is much faster and more precise then the wii U one.

The graphics had a more gritty apearence that felt more like they belonged in a fighting game."

The first one is your opinion. I still play Melee by myself strictly for the purpose of keeping my tech skill on point and sharp, I'm still not bored of it. See how opinions work?

The Subspace Emissary was not a good thing in my eyes. There's a reason why it was one of the more criticized aspects of the game overall. The environments I found to be very bland and boring compared to Melee's Adventure Mode which featured stages from Nintendo's history up to that point, not to mention, the God forsaken Great Maze.

The stage builder is also very limited in scope compared to the Wii U version and it is NOT more precise or faster.

The graphics are one of my main grievances with the game. Because of the aesthetic I find that it's much harder to keep track of what's going on onscreen at all times because of how much the characters just seem to blend into the background if you're not looking directly at them. This is also one of the issues I have with Project M is that it keeps this aesthetic which has resulted in many a SD because it looked like I was about to go one way only to go the other, this is a huge problem on the darker stages. Smash 64 has its very simplistic style which makes the characters easy to pick out, Melee and Smash 4 have the characters have slightly more saturation than the background so it's easier to pick them out and the 3DS version of Smash 4 has the characters outlined.



"Best character selection.
Best soundtrack.
Has the best stage selection outside of tornaments. Brawl has very diverse stages such as
Wario wear
Pictochat
Newpork city
Ice climbers
Shadow Moses island
Hannenbow
Spear pillar
Pokemon stadium 2
Luigis mansion
And many more. smash 4 just has 29 clones of mute city the 3 tornament stages, a couple rehashes, and that one yoshi yarn level."

This is all your opinion and the last point is just flat out wrong.



"I'm not trying to force you to stop playing the smash games you like. But you should really treat brawl and its fans with more respect. If you use the rules that were designed with melee in mind then of course Melee will be good at that rulesets. But I believe brawl is stronger outside of that ruleset."

Oh the irony, the unadulterated irony.


Before you throw a hissy fit and assume this means I hate Brawl, I don't. It never had competitive potential but it wasn't a bad game, that being said however it is the most unpolished game in the series.
 
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Sonic94

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
138
Location
The Internet.
"I have an a refutation for every single one of your "points" so since you insist I'll tear them to shreds."

Except for the fact that your previous post was so bad you didn't even bother defending it I would assume.

'But if you think about it the only people who don't like brawl are a minority that likes to play smash bros in a very strange way.'

"This is a statement made with no evidence to back it up. There are plenty of casual players who didn't like Brawl for one reason or another and there are plenty of casual players who like Brawl. To claim that the only people that didn't like Brawl were in the minority is an arrogant statement to make especially with no evidence to back it up."

Hearsay. I have never even seen someone outside of the Internet and tornaments that doesn't hold brawl as the best smash game.

'Why do I say that? Because brawl has sold the most by far and I have never seen someone who doesn't like brawl outside of here and Tornaments.'

"First of all: Sales numbers =/= quality. There are plenty of great games out there that sold like crap (Like Dragon's Dogma) and plenty of terrible games that sold great (Call of Duty Ghosts). Secondly, anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. Also, the raw number of copies sold for Brawl might be highest but a higher percentage of Gamecube owners owned Melee than the percentage of Wii owners who owned Brawl. To elaborate: the Gamecube sold 21.74 million units worldwide, Melee sold over 7 million units (An exact number has not been released so we'll just use 7 million). Meanwhile Brawl did sell 12.77 million copies BUT the Wii sold 101.52 million units. If we do the math then 32.2% of Gamecube owners owned a copy of Melee but only 12.6% of Wii owners owned a copy of Brawl."

Software sells hardware not the otherway around. The wii was a horrible console that sold great because it had great games. Plus I wasn't using sales to prove brawls quality. It was to prove what I said earlier about its reputation.

'People in the "competitive" community think that their rules are the "best".They turn all items off and ban 95 % of the levels. They only do 2v2 or 1v1. Why? Because tornament people decided they want smash bros to be a button masher. Their is WAY more strategy with items on. The way you place and use them greatly affects your ability in the match. They claim items off is to minimize cheap kills and randomness. While this is true for some items (poke balls come to mind) there is no reason they should ALL be banned ALL the time.'

"They do all of that for good reason. The West Coast in the early years of Melee's metagame played tournaments with items on and only a few banned stages. People found out very quickly that it would not work, the rumor is that it was a Grand Finals set being determined by a Bob-omb spawning on top of someone as they threw out an attack that broke the camel's back. Not to mention that items by no means balance the game, items would only make the top tiers better and low tiers worse. The same applies to stages that are banned, they are banned because they either A: Give a disproportionate advantage to one or more character (Corneria for instance heavily favors Fox in Melee due to its extremely low ceiling making Fox's already powerful vertical KO potential completely broken), B: Possessing too many random elements so that the emphasis shifts to fighting the stage rather than fighting each-other scrolling stages are the biggest offender of this, or C: All of the above."

Just ban the 1hit KO items then. Most items are not that powerful. How exactly does more options for everyone make the low tiers worse and the top tiers better.

I don't like most of the scrolling stages eather. But they really need to lax the stage bans. Three out of 30 + stages being legal is just boring. It doesn't help that smash for wiiU has terrible stages. Even smash for 3ds has better stages then the wii u version.

The smash community needs to except that their game is not 100% fair 100% of the time. Rigid rulesets are killing what could be an incredibly diverse and flexible expirience.

Also THE RULES DONT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE THE SAME. If you hate bombombs or whatever go to a tornament where that stage, item, character, ect is banned. There doesn't have to be one "correct" ruleset.



"You seem to be incapable of understanding WHY items are banned. It's not because they don't take skill to use, nobody denies that there is skill in using items, the reason items are banned is because their spawns are completely random and often times unfair. Picture this, you're at Evo, it's Grand Finals, you've worked your way through the winner's bracket and your opponent is coming from loser's. It's game 5 last stock, you're on a fairly fresh stock at 50% and your opponent is getting thoroughly trashed with 130%. All you need to do is land one solid hit and the tournament is yours. Suddenly a beetle spawns next to your opponent, they pick it up, knock you into hitstun and then throw it at you while you can't air dodge. That would infuriate anyone because suddenly a game that was all but won was just lost because RNG decided to screw over one player. If items had set spawn locations at set times with an indication as to which item would spawn then we could talk about whether or not they are tournament worthy but as long as items spawns are random they will remain banned."

So what I have died at 50% to a 125 % in the last stock of a set because a luigi accidentally hit me with the super jump punch while he was recovering.
here is a list of ways I have seen people lose a set in a "fair" match.

1 nesses bouncing off the ledges instead of grabing them.

2 a captain falcon got his up b gimped by a pikachu spaming nuetral b at the ledge.

3 a lugi lost his second jump to sheiks needles and was to far away to up b

4 a lucario got grabbed by a Gannondorfs flame choke and they sd with Gannon wining the match (possibly because he was player 1)

5 When someone goes to the star fox stage someone always dies trying to recover when the stage is tilting away from them.

6 every other set someone losses a match because they failed to sweetspot the ledge

This is just a few examples but I don't see how this is somehow more fair then being killed by an item.


"Doing 1v1 and 2v2s has nothing to do with wanting the game to be a button masher, it has to do with 1v1 placing emphasis on player to player interaction and 2v2 placing emphasis on teamwork and coordination. Once again I will point you to the West Coast which used 4 player free for all as the tournament standard early in Melee's competitive lifespan, the results were, to put it bluntly, a mess. The whole point of a tournament is to figure out who the most skilled player is, the problem with 4 player free for alls is that people know who the better player is so the lesser players will call a truce and gang up on the better player to eliminate a threat. If you don't think this would happen, it already has "King of Smash" Ken Hoang used to get ganged up on all the time during this phase of Melee's metagame, sometimes he would still win but more often than not he would lose. Once tournaments switched to the 1v1 and 2v2 format tournament results became a lot more consistent and therefore much more credible.

Yes it does. In 1v1s everything is absolute. Someone is eather for you or against you. In a free for all its much more blurred opening up new stradigies and possibilities for manipulation. It is no longer all about being the fastest. It is about being the smartest.

'And this applies to the stages to. People try to emphasize "reads" but you can't really do it unless the player you are fighting is really bad because good players actively make sure they are not being predictable. It's just a guess. If "reads" where real then why are the heavyweight characters the worst in EVERY GAME. All that really seems to matter is tech skill and being able to input as many attacks per second as possible. Look at how button mashy characters Sheik, MetaKnight, and Fox are all very strong and how more deliberate characters like bowser, Ike, and Gannondorf are all very weak in comparison. It basically turns smash bros compitions into who can reserch the most tech during school and skip the most homework learning it and lose the most sleep improving your reaction time.
If you don't you lose. Doesn't matter how stupid you are if you play the game more you automatically win.'

"See previous section about stages.
Reads are real and hard reads do happen sometimes among the top players. The problem is when you're RELYING on reads to secure KOs rather than using them as one possible method of doing so and that's why heavyweights are so bad because they NEED to get those hard reads to KO in the first place. Characters like Fox, Marth, and any other top tier characters CAN secure KOs using reads but they can also combo you to death, they can reliably bait you into an attack that they can punish, and they can also edgeguard or gimp you. Reads are ok when used as one possible method of KOing, using them as your ONLY method does not work and never will work."

Like I said reads are fake. Every now and then someone will guess right but it is not reliable and barely relevant.

"Ok, we get it, you don't like button mashers, in that case stay far away from any competitive fighting games because you're clearly not cut out for it. I also like your pathetic attempt at insulting tournament players. I didn't start doing tournaments until I got into college and I haven't lost any sleep nor have my grades suffered as a result. Not to mention that if you play stupidly it doesn't matter how many hours you have in the game, stupid play is stupid play no matter who's doing it. I've seen well seasoned players get taken down by fairly new players just because they were playing poorly, I've taken out a well seasoned player when they were playing poorly, it happens sometimes regardless of hours logged."

It doesn't matter if the player is stupid. When you fight someone how plays more then you they can just shield/dodge everything you throw at them and their character moves in erratic unatural ways that makes it feel like you are trying to catch smoke. They react faster then you, their moves are timed better and feel like they have way more range/speed then your attacks even if it is a mirror match. Unless you do something that is down right ******** you will win if you play more.


'This set up is one of the main reasons meta knight was so powerful. The rule set benefits him in the same way that banning stages with platforms would benefit projectile campers and banning everything except walk off stages would benefit characters with bad recoveries. Take away the rulesets and suddenly he is much more balenced.'

"Ummm..no. You don't know anything about competitive Smash whatsoever. There IS a stage without platforms, it's called Final Destination and it's considered one of the least balanced stages in competitive play while not being horrendously skewed toward one character or another. Meta Knight's dominance had NOTHING to do with stages you simpleton and EVERYTHING to do with how overwhelmingly powerful his kit was compared to everyone else. As for walk off stages, no, the reason they're banned is because someone can just camp as the blast zone, at this point one of two thing will happen A: the other player will approach, get grabbed, back thrown, and that's one stock gone regardless of percent or B: the camping player will get hit and lose their stock regardless of percent. Now this sounds fair right? Here's the problems with it, A: it's not interesting to watch in anyway whatsoever, and B: a player that knows what they're doing can make it so that if they're camping they will get the kill every single time."

I am pretty sure that you failed to read my post correctly.

'Brawl was more about using the strengths of your character and exploting the weaknesses of your oponents character. In melee it is literally nothing but tech spam and smash 4 is just having faster reflexes as their is no tech and the characters tend to not have any real advanteges or disadvantages against the others making everything feel a bit more like a mirror match.'

"First of all: bull****."

I bet you are glad you got that of your chest. You must be pretty mad by now. Moving on.

"Second of all: you are showing that once again you know NOTHING about competitive Smash. Melee is not tech spam, if it were then Chilean Fox player DARK would be the number one player in the world right now, want to know why he's not? Because his fundamentals (Spacing, not getting hit, match-ups, neutral game, punishes, DI, etc.) are extremely lacking compared to other top players (He gets beaten on a regular basis by other top players in his area), his extreme emphasis on tech skill worked for a while but people eventually figured out how to exploit the holes in his strategy. Melee has just as much emphasis on fundamentals as it does on tech skill, the first thing any starting Melee player will learn is that strong fundamentals with basic tech will take you far, bad fundamentals and all the tech in the world will amount to nothing but a bunch of flashy inefficient moves. Smash 4 is extremely similar to Brawl (Newsflash kid: Brawl had barely any tech to speak of either) so the fact that you are criticizing Smash 4 is extremely ironic and kind of pathetic."

Do I need to put (Hyperbole!) in parentheses for you? Do you think that I think that you can win by only using tech and not even know how to
recover? You need to be fast and of course have played the game more then your opponent to win.

I am not critisizing smash 4 for lacking tech. I am critisizing it for feeling like a mirror match all the time learn your reading comprehension already. And brawl certainly had more tech then smash 4. Dacus, chain grabbing, edge hogging, ect...... I could go into more specifics but charaters all have their own unique tech and lag cancelling potential.

Take falco for example. Falco can lag cancel his nuetral and side b. He can cancel his dash attack early to charge up smash while sliding across the stage or cancel it late and dash attack into up smash combo. He can chain down throws on various characters with various percentage. He can also spike somone out of a chain throw or combo into a charged up smash, or combo into a dash attack into up smash combo. He can short hop and shoot two lasers at once with zero lag. He can force a getup by shooting a laser at somone who missed a tech.

And that is just one character. The tech is there but it is not as over powered or mandatory as the melee tech was.




'Outside of the meta game is were it really shines though. And people forget how small the meta game really is.'

"Do you even know what the metagame is? I don't think you do. The metagame IS tournaments regardless of what you think of it. To put it simply, to play the metagame means you play to win. This means using the optimal strategy REGARDLESS of how boring or cheap it might be. You might be unable to understand this but in tournaments there's money and pride on the line, any notion of "honor" is out the window and should not even be a consideration."

I think you failed to read my post correctly.... again.... Buy outside of the meta I mean outside of tornaments. Such as playing online, playing single player, playing with friends ect....
The other games lack in this regard.



'Brawl had the best online.
In smash 4 you basically have two choices
1 only play on final destination with no items
2 play with all items on a random stage with four people that comes up as one of the mute city clones or that awful wrecking ball stage 98.7% of the time'

"That would be fine, if Brawl online even worked in the first place. The few times I played Brawl online the lag and desynchronization was so bad that I was struggling to even figure out what the hell was going on. I am not the only person who had this problem, it was a universal criticism of Brawl. Don't try to tell me "Your connection sucks". I have the same connection quality now that I did 5 years ago and I can play Smash 4 online with very few problems."

Admittedly It took longer to find a game in brawl. But the actual gameplay lags in the wiiu version just as much as in brawl. Besides brawl is an older game. What is the wii u games excuse?



'In brawl you can turn any item on or off or pick any stage and your settings will be randomly selected from the other players choices.'

"OR we can have a certain gametypes that players select from and they will only play in that style. While I do think For Glory is very poorly done it's much better than just saying "Pitch your votes in and we'll pick one at random" because inevitably you'll have someone who wants to go to Final Destination with no items and someone else who wants to go to 75m with all items on. While the separation in Smash 4 was very sloppily implemented, it at least ensures that people will be playing the kind of people they would want to play."

I would like smash 4s online if for fun was like basic brawl. For glory would be more popular amoung tornament players if it let you go to legal stages. (Everyone knows that for glory was made for the tornament players why not speak to them and actually follow their rule set in it)



'In smash 4 the devs try to force you to play the way they want you to buy adding a terrible banning system
1 if you leave or disconnect you will have a ban
2 if you don't move enough(even if you still move a little bit) for 30 seconds you will be kicked and get a ban for disconnecting
3 you will be kicked for killing someone a lot in a free for all and get a ban for disconnecting
4 if you use peach and pluck an item out in 4 glory you will have ban for cheating
5 number 3 may be triggered by an item or assist trophy
6 number 3 May be triggered for no reason.
7 Butthurt tryhards can try to report you'

"Number 1 will not happen the first few times you do it. If you really don't want to play the match then just SD until you're out (For Glory only)."

For glory is boring.

"Number 2 does not happen period because of the nature of this game, if you're standing still doing absolutely nothing for more than 5 seconds outside of possible mindgames you're playing wrong."

Just because you move a little every 5 seconds doesn't mean you won't trigger the idoling ban. It doesn't work that way. I have been kicked multiple times because it was just a campy match and now I have to actively try to not trigger it because if I power sheild a link for to long I will get kicked and suspended.

"Number 3 is ridiculous, but almost nobody plays "For Fun" so it's a moot point."

Ah here is an example a statement with no evidence. I could just as easily say that nobody plays for glory but they do other wise no one could find a game on it. Just because you don't play for fun means it might as well not even exist am I right?

"Number 4 was patched"
Good.

"Number 5 is redundant."
Now imagine for a moment, if you will, that you are on for fun and player four is playing little Mac and you are going to try to avoid killing him again so you don't get suspended. Then you throw a pokeball and krogre kills player four twice and triggers a suspension.

"Number 6 does not happen that I know of."

It only happens in for fun.

"Number 7 is true but those reports will be ignored 99 times out of a 100."

doesnt matter you shouldn't get banned for having fun in for fun mode. Limit bans to for glory. please



'In brawl you could do whatever you want. So player 2 is bothering you? Start an aliance with player 3 and go get him. So you are tired of a truce? Go crash that taunt party. Sick of fighting on battlefield? Go to hyrule and try to get a taunt party going. This was way more fun and let you have all kinds of interations with the other players. There was even a code
crouching means "I'm friendly"
Pink Captain Falcons down taunting are asking for a truce
Jabing someone once means "let's even the score so we can see who can survive the longest in sudden death"
Playing as the same character as someone means you want to start an aliance with him or that you are his rival
Sd ing after somone attacks you means "I don't want to fight"'

"This all sounds like something you pulled out of your ***. I've never heard of any instance of this happening anywhere from anyone."

once upon a time entire threads on various forums were dedicated to promoting this sort of communication but alas basic brawl is no more. But if you go to for fun and crouch a lot eventually someone will crouch back. This is a former basic brawl player who still remembers this type of communication. He will also probably try to team up with you after this. I know this definitely works because I have started 3 way alliances hundreds of times by communicating in this way.



'There was always something to do in brawl but smash 4 and Melee just get old when you are at home.

The subspace emissary is epic.

The stage builder is much faster and more precise then the wii U one.

The graphics had a more gritty apearence that felt more like they belonged in a fighting game.'

"The first one is your opinion. I still play Melee by myself strictly for the purpose of keeping my tech skill on point and sharp, I'm still not bored of it. See how opinions work?"

Yes they are used to avoid losing an argument due to having absolutely no evidence to back something up other then an emotion.

"The Subspace Emissary was not a good thing in my eyes. There's a reason why it was one of the more criticized aspects of the game overall. The environments I found to be very bland and boring compared to Melee's Adventure Mode which featured stages from Nintendo's history up to that point, not to mention, the God forsaken Great Maze."

I found the subspace emissary to be by far the best of the single player modes due to the cutscenes and unique gameplay. While the levels are a tad generic it has a great soundtrack and decent length. I would have liked to see an even better campaign in 4 but all we got was a freaking bored game.

"The stage builder is also very limited in scope compared to the Wii U version and it is NOT more precise or faster."

The wii u stage builder forces you to use a touch screen and the stage turns out to be a hopeless scribble that no one could ever seriously play on. Making a decent stage takes hours verses brawls which took minutes


"The graphics are one of my main grievances with the game. Because of the aesthetic I find that it's much harder to keep track of what's going on onscreen at all times because of how much the characters just seem to blend into the background if you're not looking directly at them. This is also one of the issues I have with Project M is that it keeps this aesthetic which has resulted in many a SD because it looked like I was about to go one way only to go the other, this is a huge problem on the darker stages. Smash 64 has its very simplistic style which makes the characters easy to pick out, Melee and Smash 4 have the characters have slightly more saturation than the background so it's easier to pick them out and the 3DS version of Smash 4 has the characters outlined."

This is one of the weirdest complaints......

Anyways you shouldn't lose track of your character. It's probably your lack of experience in brawl or your tv screen. They have very colored sheilds compared to 4 so you should know which sheild is yours and of course the name tag helps.



'Best character selection.
Best soundtrack.
Has the best stage selection outside of tornaments. Brawl has very diverse stages such as
Wario wear
Pictochat
Newpork city
Ice climbers
Shadow Moses island
Hannenbow
Spear pillar
Pokemon stadium 2
Luigis mansion
And many more. smash 4 just has 29 clones of mute city the 3 tornament stages, a couple rehashes, and that one yoshi yarn level.'

"This is all your opinion and the last point is just flat out wrong."

Opinionopinionsheild. And no the last point is not wrong it's just another hyperbole.



'I'm not trying to force you to stop playing the smash games you like. But you should really treat brawl and its fans with more respect. If you use the rules that were designed with melee in mind then of course Melee will be good at that rulesets. But I believe brawl is stronger outside of that ruleset.'

"Oh the irony, the unadulterated irony."

Okay.

"Before you throw a hissy fit and assume this means I hate Brawl, I don't. It never had competitive potential but it wasn't a bad game, that being said however it is the most unpolished game in the series."

Brawl had competeive potential. But people did not want it to they just wanted a second Melee so the meta basically died.

You seem to be pretty mad for someone who is suposedly able to tear all my points to shreds.

Have a good day.
 
Last edited:

Delta Chae

The Observer
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
194
Location
Indiana
"I have an a refutation for every single one of your "points" so since you insist I'll tear them to shreds."

Except for the fact that your previous post was so bad you didn't even bother defending it I would assume.

'But if you think about it the only people who don't like brawl are a minority that likes to play smash bros in a very strange way.'

"This is a statement made with no evidence to back it up. There are plenty of casual players who didn't like Brawl for one reason or another and there are plenty of casual players who like Brawl. To claim that the only people that didn't like Brawl were in the minority is an arrogant statement to make especially with no evidence to back it up."

Hearsay. I have never even seen someone outside of the Internet and tornaments that doesn't hold brawl as the best smash game.

'Why do I say that? Because brawl has sold the most by far and I have never seen someone who doesn't like brawl outside of here and Tornaments.'

"First of all: Sales numbers =/= quality. There are plenty of great games out there that sold like crap (Like Dragon's Dogma) and plenty of terrible games that sold great (Call of Duty Ghosts). Secondly, anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. Also, the raw number of copies sold for Brawl might be highest but a higher percentage of Gamecube owners owned Melee than the percentage of Wii owners who owned Brawl. To elaborate: the Gamecube sold 21.74 million units worldwide, Melee sold over 7 million units (An exact number has not been released so we'll just use 7 million). Meanwhile Brawl did sell 12.77 million copies BUT the Wii sold 101.52 million units. If we do the math then 32.2% of Gamecube owners owned a copy of Melee but only 12.6% of Wii owners owned a copy of Brawl."

Software sells hardware not the otherway around. The wii was a horrible console that sold great because it had great games. Plus I wasn't using sales to prove brawls quality. It was to prove what I said earlier about its reputation.

'People in the "competitive" community think that their rules are the "best".They turn all items off and ban 95 % of the levels. They only do 2v2 or 1v1. Why? Because tornament people decided they want smash bros to be a button masher. Their is WAY more strategy with items on. The way you place and use them greatly affects your ability in the match. They claim items off is to minimize cheap kills and randomness. While this is true for some items (poke balls come to mind) there is no reason they should ALL be banned ALL the time.'

"They do all of that for good reason. The West Coast in the early years of Melee's metagame played tournaments with items on and only a few banned stages. People found out very quickly that it would not work, the rumor is that it was a Grand Finals set being determined by a Bob-omb spawning on top of someone as they threw out an attack that broke the camel's back. Not to mention that items by no means balance the game, items would only make the top tiers better and low tiers worse. The same applies to stages that are banned, they are banned because they either A: Give a disproportionate advantage to one or more character (Corneria for instance heavily favors Fox in Melee due to its extremely low ceiling making Fox's already powerful vertical KO potential completely broken), B: Possessing too many random elements so that the emphasis shifts to fighting the stage rather than fighting each-other scrolling stages are the biggest offender of this, or C: All of the above."

Just ban the 1hit KO items then. Most items are not that powerful. How exactly does more options for everyone make the low tiers worse and the top tiers better.

I don't like most of the scrolling stages eather. But they really need to lax the stage bans. Three out of 30 + stages being legal is just boring. It doesn't help that smash for wiiU has terrible stages. Even smash for 3ds has better stages then the wii u version.

The smash community needs to except that their game is not 100% fair 100% of the time. Rigid rulesets are killing what could be an incredibly diverse and flexible expirience.

Also THE RULES DONT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE THE SAME. If you hate bombombs or whatever go to a tornament where that stage, item, character, ect is banned. There doesn't have to be one "correct" ruleset.



"You seem to be incapable of understanding WHY items are banned. It's not because they don't take skill to use, nobody denies that there is skill in using items, the reason items are banned is because their spawns are completely random and often times unfair. Picture this, you're at Evo, it's Grand Finals, you've worked your way through the winner's bracket and your opponent is coming from loser's. It's game 5 last stock, you're on a fairly fresh stock at 50% and your opponent is getting thoroughly trashed with 130%. All you need to do is land one solid hit and the tournament is yours. Suddenly a beetle spawns next to your opponent, they pick it up, knock you into hitstun and then throw it at you while you can't air dodge. That would infuriate anyone because suddenly a game that was all but won was just lost because RNG decided to screw over one player. If items had set spawn locations at set times with an indication as to which item would spawn then we could talk about whether or not they are tournament worthy but as long as items spawns are random they will remain banned."

So what I have died at 50% to a 125 % in the last stock of a set because a luigi accidentally hit me with the super jump punch while he was recovering.
here is a list of ways I have seen people lose a set in a "fair" match.

1 nesses bouncing off the ledges instead of grabing them.

2 a captain falcon got his up b gimped by a pikachu spaming nuetral b at the ledge.

3 a lugi lost his second jump to sheiks needles and was to far away to up b

4 a lucario got grabbed by a Gannondorfs flame choke and they sd with Gannon wining the match (possibly because he was player 1)

5 When someone goes to the star fox stage someone always dies trying to recover when the stage is tilting away from them.

6 every other set someone losses a match because they failed to sweetspot the ledge

This is just a few examples but I don't see how this is somehow more fair then being killed by an item.


"Doing 1v1 and 2v2s has nothing to do with wanting the game to be a button masher, it has to do with 1v1 placing emphasis on player to player interaction and 2v2 placing emphasis on teamwork and coordination. Once again I will point you to the West Coast which used 4 player free for all as the tournament standard early in Melee's competitive lifespan, the results were, to put it bluntly, a mess. The whole point of a tournament is to figure out who the most skilled player is, the problem with 4 player free for alls is that people know who the better player is so the lesser players will call a truce and gang up on the better player to eliminate a threat. If you don't think this would happen, it already has "King of Smash" Ken Hoang used to get ganged up on all the time during this phase of Melee's metagame, sometimes he would still win but more often than not he would lose. Once tournaments switched to the 1v1 and 2v2 format tournament results became a lot more consistent and therefore much more credible.

Yes it does. In 1v1s everything is absolute. Someone is eather for you or against you. In a free for all its much more blurred opening up new stradigies and possibilities for manipulation. It is no longer all about being the fastest. It is about being the smartest.

'And this applies to the stages to. People try to emphasize "reads" but you can't really do it unless the player you are fighting is really bad because good players actively make sure they are not being predictable. It's just a guess. If "reads" where real then why are the heavyweight characters the worst in EVERY GAME. All that really seems to matter is tech skill and being able to input as many attacks per second as possible. Look at how button mashy characters Sheik, MetaKnight, and Fox are all very strong and how more deliberate characters like bowser, Ike, and Gannondorf are all very weak in comparison. It basically turns smash bros compitions into who can reserch the most tech during school and skip the most homework learning it and lose the most sleep improving your reaction time.
If you don't you lose. Doesn't matter how stupid you are if you play the game more you automatically win.'

"See previous section about stages.
Reads are real and hard reads do happen sometimes among the top players. The problem is when you're RELYING on reads to secure KOs rather than using them as one possible method of doing so and that's why heavyweights are so bad because they NEED to get those hard reads to KO in the first place. Characters like Fox, Marth, and any other top tier characters CAN secure KOs using reads but they can also combo you to death, they can reliably bait you into an attack that they can punish, and they can also edgeguard or gimp you. Reads are ok when used as one possible method of KOing, using them as your ONLY method does not work and never will work."

Like I said reads are fake. Every now and then someone will guess right but it is not reliable and barely relevant.

"Ok, we get it, you don't like button mashers, in that case stay far away from any competitive fighting games because you're clearly not cut out for it. I also like your pathetic attempt at insulting tournament players. I didn't start doing tournaments until I got into college and I haven't lost any sleep nor have my grades suffered as a result. Not to mention that if you play stupidly it doesn't matter how many hours you have in the game, stupid play is stupid play no matter who's doing it. I've seen well seasoned players get taken down by fairly new players just because they were playing poorly, I've taken out a well seasoned player when they were playing poorly, it happens sometimes regardless of hours logged."

It doesn't matter if the player is stupid. When you fight someone how plays more then you they can just shield/dodge everything you throw at them and their character moves in erratic unatural ways that makes it feel like you are trying to catch smoke. They react faster then you, their moves are timed better and feel like they have way more range/speed then your attacks even if it is a mirror match. Unless you do something that is down right ******** you will win if you play more.


'This set up is one of the main reasons meta knight was so powerful. The rule set benefits him in the same way that banning stages with platforms would benefit projectile campers and banning everything except walk off stages would benefit characters with bad recoveries. Take away the rulesets and suddenly he is much more balenced.'

"Ummm..no. You don't know anything about competitive Smash whatsoever. There IS a stage without platforms, it's called Final Destination and it's considered one of the least balanced stages in competitive play while not being horrendously skewed toward one character or another. Meta Knight's dominance had NOTHING to do with stages you simpleton and EVERYTHING to do with how overwhelmingly powerful his kit was compared to everyone else. As for walk off stages, no, the reason they're banned is because someone can just camp as the blast zone, at this point one of two thing will happen A: the other player will approach, get grabbed, back thrown, and that's one stock gone regardless of percent or B: the camping player will get hit and lose their stock regardless of percent. Now this sounds fair right? Here's the problems with it, A: it's not interesting to watch in anyway whatsoever, and B: a player that knows what they're doing can make it so that if they're camping they will get the kill every single time."

I am pretty sure that you failed to read my post correctly.

'Brawl was more about using the strengths of your character and exploting the weaknesses of your oponents character. In melee it is literally nothing but tech spam and smash 4 is just having faster reflexes as their is no tech and the characters tend to not have any real advanteges or disadvantages against the others making everything feel a bit more like a mirror match.'

"First of all: bull****."

I bet you are glad you got that of your chest. You must be pretty mad by now. Moving on.

"Second of all: you are showing that once again you know NOTHING about competitive Smash. Melee is not tech spam, if it were then Chilean Fox player DARK would be the number one player in the world right now, want to know why he's not? Because his fundamentals (Spacing, not getting hit, match-ups, neutral game, punishes, DI, etc.) are extremely lacking compared to other top players (He gets beaten on a regular basis by other top players in his area), his extreme emphasis on tech skill worked for a while but people eventually figured out how to exploit the holes in his strategy. Melee has just as much emphasis on fundamentals as it does on tech skill, the first thing any starting Melee player will learn is that strong fundamentals with basic tech will take you far, bad fundamentals and all the tech in the world will amount to nothing but a bunch of flashy inefficient moves. Smash 4 is extremely similar to Brawl (Newsflash kid: Brawl had barely any tech to speak of either) so the fact that you are criticizing Smash 4 is extremely ironic and kind of pathetic."

Do I need to put (Hyperbole!) in parentheses for you? Do you think that I think that you can win by only using tech and not even know how to
recover? You need to be fast and of course have played the game more then your opponent to win.

I am not critisizing smash 4 for lacking tech. I am critisizing it for feeling like a mirror match all the time learn your reading comprehension already. And brawl certainly had more tech then smash 4. Dacus, chain grabbing, edge hogging, ect...... I could go into more specifics but charaters all have their own unique tech and lag cancelling potential.

Take falco for example. Falco can lag cancel his nuetral and side b. He can cancel his dash attack early to charge up smash while sliding across the stage or cancel it late and dash attack into up smash combo. He can chain down throws on various characters with various percentage. He can also spike somone out of a chain throw or combo into a charged up smash, or combo into a dash attack into up smash combo. He can short hop and shoot two lasers at once with zero lag. He can force a getup by shooting a laser at somone who missed a tech.

And that is just one character. The tech is there but it is not as over powered or mandatory as the melee tech was.




'Outside of the meta game is were it really shines though. And people forget how small the meta game really is.'

"Do you even know what the metagame is? I don't think you do. The metagame IS tournaments regardless of what you think of it. To put it simply, to play the metagame means you play to win. This means using the optimal strategy REGARDLESS of how boring or cheap it might be. You might be unable to understand this but in tournaments there's money and pride on the line, any notion of "honor" is out the window and should not even be a consideration."

I think you failed to read my post correctly.... again.... Buy outside of the meta I mean outside of tornaments. Such as playing online, playing single player, playing with friends ect....
The other games lack in this regard.



'Brawl had the best online.
In smash 4 you basically have two choices
1 only play on final destination with no items
2 play with all items on a random stage with four people that comes up as one of the mute city clones or that awful wrecking ball stage 98.7% of the time'

"That would be fine, if Brawl online even worked in the first place. The few times I played Brawl online the lag and desynchronization was so bad that I was struggling to even figure out what the hell was going on. I am not the only person who had this problem, it was a universal criticism of Brawl. Don't try to tell me "Your connection sucks". I have the same connection quality now that I did 5 years ago and I can play Smash 4 online with very few problems."

Admittedly It took longer to find a game in brawl. But the actual gameplay lags in the wiiu version just as much as in brawl. Besides brawl is an older game. What is the wii u games excuse?



'In brawl you can turn any item on or off or pick any stage and your settings will be randomly selected from the other players choices.'

"OR we can have a certain gametypes that players select from and they will only play in that style. While I do think For Glory is very poorly done it's much better than just saying "Pitch your votes in and we'll pick one at random" because inevitably you'll have someone who wants to go to Final Destination with no items and someone else who wants to go to 75m with all items on. While the separation in Smash 4 was very sloppily implemented, it at least ensures that people will be playing the kind of people they would want to play."

I would like smash 4s online if for fun was like basic brawl. For glory would be more popular amoung tornament players if it let you go to legal stages. (Everyone knows that for glory was made for the tornament players why not speak to them and actually follow their rule set in it)



'In smash 4 the devs try to force you to play the way they want you to buy adding a terrible banning system
1 if you leave or disconnect you will have a ban
2 if you don't move enough(even if you still move a little bit) for 30 seconds you will be kicked and get a ban for disconnecting
3 you will be kicked for killing someone a lot in a free for all and get a ban for disconnecting
4 if you use peach and pluck an item out in 4 glory you will have ban for cheating
5 number 3 may be triggered by an item or assist trophy
6 number 3 May be triggered for no reason.
7 Butthurt tryhards can try to report you'

"Number 1 will not happen the first few times you do it. If you really don't want to play the match then just SD until you're out (For Glory only)."

For glory is boring.

"Number 2 does not happen period because of the nature of this game, if you're standing still doing absolutely nothing for more than 5 seconds outside of possible mindgames you're playing wrong."

Just because you move a little every 5 seconds doesn't mean you won't trigger the idoling ban. It doesn't work that way. I have been kicked multiple times because it was just a campy match and now I have to actively try to not trigger it because if I power sheild a link for to long I will get kicked and suspended.

"Number 3 is ridiculous, but almost nobody plays "For Fun" so it's a moot point."

Ah here is an example a statement with no evidence. I could just as easily say that nobody plays for glory but they do other wise no one could find a game on it. Just because you don't play for fun means it might as well not even exist am I right?

"Number 4 was patched"
Good.

"Number 5 is redundant."
Now imagine for a moment, if you will, that you are on for fun and player four is playing little Mac and you are going to try to avoid killing him again so you don't get suspended. Then you throw a pokeball and krogre kills player four twice and triggers a suspension.

"Number 6 does not happen that I know of."

It only happens in for fun.

"Number 7 is true but those reports will be ignored 99 times out of a 100."

doesnt matter you shouldn't get banned for having fun in for fun mode. Limit bans to for glory. please



'In brawl you could do whatever you want. So player 2 is bothering you? Start an aliance with player 3 and go get him. So you are tired of a truce? Go crash that taunt party. Sick of fighting on battlefield? Go to hyrule and try to get a taunt party going. This was way more fun and let you have all kinds of interations with the other players. There was even a code
crouching means "I'm friendly"
Pink Captain Falcons down taunting are asking for a truce
Jabing someone once means "let's even the score so we can see who can survive the longest in sudden death"
Playing as the same character as someone means you want to start an aliance with him or that you are his rival
Sd ing after somone attacks you means "I don't want to fight"'

"This all sounds like something you pulled out of your ***. I've never heard of any instance of this happening anywhere from anyone."

once upon a time entire threads on various forums were dedicated to promoting this sort of communication but alas basic brawl is no more. But if you go to for fun and crouch a lot eventually someone will crouch back. This is a former basic brawl player who still remembers this type of communication. He will also probably try to team up with you after this. I know this definitely works because I have started 3 way alliances hundreds of times by communicating in this way.



'There was always something to do in brawl but smash 4 and Melee just get old when you are at home.

The subspace emissary is epic.

The stage builder is much faster and more precise then the wii U one.

The graphics had a more gritty apearence that felt more like they belonged in a fighting game.'

"The first one is your opinion. I still play Melee by myself strictly for the purpose of keeping my tech skill on point and sharp, I'm still not bored of it. See how opinions work?"

Yes they are used to avoid losing an argument due to having absolutely no evidence to back something up other then an emotion.

"The Subspace Emissary was not a good thing in my eyes. There's a reason why it was one of the more criticized aspects of the game overall. The environments I found to be very bland and boring compared to Melee's Adventure Mode which featured stages from Nintendo's history up to that point, not to mention, the God forsaken Great Maze."

I found the subspace emissary to be by far the best of the single player modes due to the cutscenes and unique gameplay. While the levels are a tad generic it has a great soundtrack and decent length. I would have liked to see an even better campaign in 4 but all we got was a freaking bored game.

"The stage builder is also very limited in scope compared to the Wii U version and it is NOT more precise or faster."

The wii u stage builder forces you to use a touch screen and the stage turns out to be a hopeless scribble that no one could ever seriously play on. Making a decent stage takes hours verses brawls which took minutes


"The graphics are one of my main grievances with the game. Because of the aesthetic I find that it's much harder to keep track of what's going on onscreen at all times because of how much the characters just seem to blend into the background if you're not looking directly at them. This is also one of the issues I have with Project M is that it keeps this aesthetic which has resulted in many a SD because it looked like I was about to go one way only to go the other, this is a huge problem on the darker stages. Smash 64 has its very simplistic style which makes the characters easy to pick out, Melee and Smash 4 have the characters have slightly more saturation than the background so it's easier to pick them out and the 3DS version of Smash 4 has the characters outlined."

This is one of the weirdest complaints......

Anyways you shouldn't lose track of your character. It's probably your lack of experience in brawl or your tv screen. They have very colored sheilds compared to 4 so you should know which sheild is yours and of course the name tag helps.



'Best character selection.
Best soundtrack.
Has the best stage selection outside of tornaments. Brawl has very diverse stages such as
Wario wear
Pictochat
Newpork city
Ice climbers
Shadow Moses island
Hannenbow
Spear pillar
Pokemon stadium 2
Luigis mansion
And many more. smash 4 just has 29 clones of mute city the 3 tornament stages, a couple rehashes, and that one yoshi yarn level.'

"This is all your opinion and the last point is just flat out wrong."

Opinionopinionsheild. And no the last point is not wrong it's just another hyperbole.



'I'm not trying to force you to stop playing the smash games you like. But you should really treat brawl and its fans with more respect. If you use the rules that were designed with melee in mind then of course Melee will be good at that rulesets. But I believe brawl is stronger outside of that ruleset.'

"Oh the irony, the unadulterated irony."

Okay.

"Before you throw a hissy fit and assume this means I hate Brawl, I don't. It never had competitive potential but it wasn't a bad game, that being said however it is the most unpolished game in the series."

Brawl had competeive potential. But people did not want it to they just wanted a second Melee so the meta basically died.

You seem to be pretty mad for someone who is suposedly able to tear all my points to shreds.

Have a good day.
Ok kid, it's obvious that you have some serious problems, let's go through this one by one again.


"Hearsay. I have never even seen someone outside of the Internet and tornaments that doesn't hold brawl as the best smash game."

Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. I don't know a single person that thinks Brawl is better than Melee, this means absolutely nothing as far as actual numbers are concerned.


"Software sells hardware not the otherway around. The wii was a horrible console that sold great because it had great games. Plus I wasn't using sales to prove brawls quality. It was to prove what I said earlier about its reputation."

You seem to have missed the point entirely, both mine and your own. You claim that Brawl is the best Smash game by bringing up sales numbers and then try to say that sales numbers don't actually mean anything? Nice contradiction there. The reputation of a game is mostly irrelevant to how good it actually is. There usually is a correlation between reputation and quality but this is not always the case.


"Just ban the 1hit KO items then. Most items are not that powerful. How exactly does more options for everyone make the low tiers worse and the top tiers better."

You missed the point again. The reason items are banned is because their spawns are RANDOM and therefore unfair, one hit kill or not. There are very few items that are not obscenely powerful when in the hands of someone who knows how to use them, rather than dealing with the headache of people arguing about which items should be banned, it's simply easier to just ban all items. Top tier characters in Smash are the ones who have good mobility as well as strong options. Bottom tier characters are generally large and/or sluggish. Characters with more mobility can more easily get to items than bottom tier characters. A Fox in Melee will pretty much always beat a Bowser to an item of any sort.


I don't like most of the scrolling stages eather. But they really need to lax the stage bans. Three out of 30 + stages being legal is just boring. It doesn't help that smash for wiiU has terrible stages. Even smash for 3ds has better stages then the wii u version.

Only Smash 64 has that few legal stages (2, Hyrule Castle and Dream Land and Hyrule is on its way out as a legal stage). Melee has 6 so great job demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. You also seem to be unaware that the current list of legal stages was not determined overnight, we have the current stagelist as a result of years of experimentation and figuring out what does and does not work.

The smash community needs to except that their game is not 100% fair 100% of the time. Rigid rulesets are killing what could be an incredibly diverse and flexible expirience.

First of all, your grammar and spelling suck, what are you 14? Second of all, the game is NOT 100% fair, no competitive game is ever 100% fair. What you SHOULD strive for in a healthy competitive environment is to get as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to 100% fair. Your idiotic views of what competitive play should be have been tried in the early years of Melee's competitive lifespan and failed miserably.


"Also THE RULES DONT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE THE SAME. If you hate bombombs or whatever go to a tornament where that stage, item, character, ect is banned. There doesn't have to be one "correct" ruleset."

Um, no. You don't seem to be aware of how reality works. Without a widely accepted ruleset, tournament results become less credible because there is no accepted standard for what determines them. Again, the west coast used items for the first few years of Melee's competitive lifespan. Want to know why they stopped? It wasn't working. Get that through your thick skull, items have already been tried in the competitive scene and have been demonstrated to be detrimental to it.


"So what I have died at 50% to a 125 % in the last stock of a set because a luigi accidentally hit me with the super jump punch while he was recovering."

Accidental deaths due to jumping into someone else's move and a death that results from RNG are two completely different things. How stupid are you exactly? If you die because you stood near the edge while Ganondorf was recovering with his side-b, that's your own fault for not respecting the fact that getting caught in that on the edge means death. If you die because you failed to sweetspot the ledge, that's completely on you. If you die because someone was spamming a move at the edge, that your fault for not knowing how to recover properly. None of these deaths are caused by RNG. Deaths caused by items usually ARE caused by RNG, that's what you seem to be incapable of understanding, a good competitive title will have as little RNG as possible and any RNG that is present must still have a certain degree of player control over it. The Pokemon games for instance feature RNG in many of its moves, the difference is that you CHOOSE which move to use. If you chose a move that only has a 50% chance of hitting and it misses then that's your fault for choosing it over the move that has a 100% chance of hitting. It's similar to the concept of "safe" vs "unsafe" moves in Smash. Safe moves are low risk low reward, unsafe moves are high risk high reward. By the way, Ganondorf getting a kill with his flame choke ALWAYS results in the opponent dying first, it's not RNG, Ganoncide always works out in Ganondorf's favor in an even stock scenario.


"Yes it does. In 1v1s everything is absolute. Someone is eather for you or against you. In a free for all its much more blurred opening up new stradigies and possibilities for manipulation. It is no longer all about being the fastest. It is about being the smartest."

You either missed the point again or chose to ignore it again. 1v1 and 2v2 makes it purely about SKILL and player to player interaction. The best player will always win in a 1v1 scenario and the the best team will always win in a 2v2 scenario. The whole point of tournaments is to determine the most skilled player/team. I don't know why it's so hard for you to wrap your head around this, tournaments are meant to be a demonstration of player skill, not who's the best player is so they can get ganged up on and be eliminated from a set that they rightfully should have won.


"It doesn't matter if the player is stupid. When you fight someone how plays more then you they can just shield/dodge everything you throw at them and their character moves in erratic unatural ways that makes it feel like you are trying to catch smoke. They react faster then you, their moves are timed better and feel like they have way more range/speed then your attacks even if it is a mirror match. Unless you do something that is down right ******** you will win if you play more."

Implying that this is a problem? Someone who has played for 1000+ hours SHOULD rightfully destroy someone who plays for only a few hours every couple of weeks. This is not something exclusive to Smash, in any video game people that have hours upon hours of practice will destroy people that play the game casually and that's the way it should be. These people have put in time and effort to hone a craft that they love, there should be some sort of tangible result from all of that.


"Like I said reads are fake. Every now and then someone will guess right but it is not reliable and barely relevant."

Ok you clearly don't know the difference between a soft read and a hard read. Reads are also not "guesswork" as you and so many other scrubs think they are. Reads are option coverage. A soft read is covering multiple options that the opponent has, as a result this is significantly safer but far less rewarding read. A hard read is covering a single option with its optimal punish but neglecting other options, this is when there is guesswork involved, if you're right then the opponent dies, if you're wrong then you get punished instead. Players, aside from Mango, rarely go for hard reads due to the risk involved, soft reads however are commonplace and required to be successful.


"I am pretty sure that you failed to read my post correctly."

No I didn't kid. You claimed that the reason Meta Knight was so powerful was because of the tournament ruleset which isn't true at all. Meta Knight is powerful because his moveset is just that much better than everyone else's.


"Do I need to put (Hyperbole!) in parentheses for you? Do you think that I think that you can win by only using tech and not even know how to
recover? You need to be fast and of course have played the game more then your opponent to win."

Nice attempt to save face kid. When having a discussion like this, any form of hyperbole should be avoided, especially when communicating only through text. Additionally your other ignorant statements make it very easy to believe that you actually believe all of the inane dribble that you keep spewing.


"I am not critisizing smash 4 for lacking tech. I am critisizing it for feeling like a mirror match all the time learn your reading comprehension already. And brawl certainly had more tech then smash 4. Dacus, chain grabbing, edge hogging, ect...... I could go into more specifics but charaters all have their own unique tech and lag cancelling potential."

How about you fix how piss poor your spelling, grammar, and sentence structure is? If you had a basic grasp on how language works this wouldn't be a problem. Edge-hogging is also not an advanced tech, it's a basic requirement to play any Smash game until 4 at the top level. DACUS was such a situational move that it's hardly worth mentioning. Also, every character has their own unique TRAITS and PLAYSTYLES, this does not mean unique "tech". Ice Climbers have a type of chain grab that's unique to them in Brawl and Wobbling in Melee, these are techs. Meta Knight Mach Tornado shenanigans (As an example) are not a tech but a property of the move itself.


"And that is just one character. The tech is there but it is not as over powered or mandatory as the melee tech was."

All of that stuff you listed for Falco? REQUIRED to play at a high level. The only "mandatory" tech in Melee is L-cancelling unless you're playing Fox or Falco. While difficult, it is possible to play at a high level without wavedashing unless you're Luigi or Ice Climbers. Fox and Falco have multiple advanced tech that are unique to the two and required to play them, but most other characters can be played with just straight fundamentals and smart play.


"I think you failed to read my post correctly.... again.... Buy outside of the meta I mean outside of tornaments. Such as playing online, playing single player, playing with friends ect....
The other games lack in this regard."

And I think you need to stop avoiding the point. This is not about casual play, this is about tournament play and in that regard, Brawl does not measure up. In case you didn't notice, Smashboards is a place that is for TOURNAMENT players.


"Admittedly It took longer to find a game in brawl. But the actual gameplay lags in the wiiu version just as much as in brawl. Besides brawl is an older game. What is the wii u games excuse?"

This is just a straight and blatant lie. Why then was Brawl's online heavily criticized for connection issues but such criticisms for Smash 4 are significantly lesser in number and not nearly as severe? By the way "being an older game" is not a valid excuse, there are plenty of games that were around at the time that ran just fine during online play.


"I would like smash 4s online if for fun was like basic brawl. For glory would be more popular amoung tornament players if it let you go to legal stages. (Everyone knows that for glory was made for the tornament players why not speak to them and actually follow their rule set in it)"

You didn't even address my point. Separation of For Glory and For Fun, while very sloppily done, is much better than just saying "all players tell us what you want and we'll pick one at random". With a system like that it's highly likely that all but one of the players in the lobby will end up displeased with the result.


"For glory is boring."

If you don't want to play a For Fun match then don't join one in the first place. For Fun by its very nature results in a lot of shenanigans that many people do not find amusing in the slightest.


"Just because you move a little every 5 seconds doesn't mean you won't trigger the idoling ban. It doesn't work that way. I have been kicked multiple times because it was just a campy match and now I have to actively try to not trigger it because if I power sheild a link for to long I will get kicked and suspended."

This is a problem with you not knowing how to play then. Defensive campy play is one thing, defensive campy play with almost no movement is a completely different thing. Even though the physics of the game punish you for trying to be aggressive, you can still approach in an attempt to bait out something you can punish.


"Ah here is an example a statement with no evidence. I could just as easily say that nobody plays for glory but they do other wise no one could find a game on it. Just because you don't play for fun means it might as well not even exist am I right?"

Fair enough, but I will point out that you generally hear people referencing For Glory more than For Fun in addition to most videos featuring online Smash being centered around For Glory, even from many people that aren't tournygoers.


"Good."

Let me rephrase that "Number 4 has been patched since the 1.0.2 update that occurred the DAY OF the game being launched in the west", not to mention that the bug rarely ever occurred in the first place. There is absolutely no excuse for your ignorance in this regard.


"Now imagine for a moment, if you will, that you are on for fun and player four is playing little Mac and you are going to try to avoid killing him again so you don't get suspended. Then you throw a pokeball and krogre kills player four twice and triggers a suspension."

See statement about For Fun, I really have nothing to say about this one.


"doesnt matter you shouldn't get banned for having fun in for fun mode. Limit bans to for glory. please"

People that would report you are unlikely to even be playing For Fun in first place. Again, 99% of the time reports are ignored because 99% of time they are invalid.


"once upon a time entire threads on various forums were dedicated to promoting this sort of communication but alas basic brawl is no more. But if you go to for fun and crouch a lot eventually someone will crouch back. This is a former basic brawl player who still remembers this type of communication. He will also probably try to team up with you after this. I know this definitely works because I have started 3 way alliances hundreds of times by communicating in this way."

If this is actually true then there is absolutely nothing stopping it from happening again and you have no reason to be upset. This would never happen in For Glory because none of it would actually mean anything.


"Yes they are used to avoid losing an argument due to having absolutely no evidence to back something up other then an emotion."

Like how you've been presenting your opinions as facts this entire time? There's a huge difference between an opinion presented as an opinion and an opinion presented as a fact. You claim that there is always something to do in Brawl but not Smash 4 and Melee as if it were an objective fact, it is not.


"I found the subspace emissary to be by far the best of the single player modes due to the cutscenes and unique gameplay. While the levels are a tad generic it has a great soundtrack and decent length. I would have liked to see an even better campaign in 4 but all we got was a freaking bored game."

The "unique" gameplay is precisely the reason it was criticized in the first place in addition to the generic levels.


"The wii u stage builder forces you to use a touch screen and the stage turns out to be a hopeless scribble that no one could ever seriously play on. Making a decent stage takes hours verses brawls which took minutes"

Drawing flat surfaces is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. If the line is relatively straight without any large change in angle, you will get a flat surface.


"This is one of the weirdest complaints......

Anyways you shouldn't lose track of your character. It's probably your lack of experience in brawl or your tv screen. They have very colored sheilds compared to 4 so you should know which sheild is yours and of course the name tag helps."

Um...no. I've heard this complaint from others as well. Shields being more noticeable is completely irrelevant because I'm not going to be shielding all the time. As for nametags, they help in some cases, but not on the darker stages which is the primary time when this becomes an issue in the first place.


"Opinionopinionsheild. And no the last point is not wrong it's just another hyperbole."

Stop stating your opinions as if they are facts and I won't feel the need to call you out on it. Do you even understand why hyperbole is? Hyperbole is exaggeration of something that is already an issue. Understand that now? Hyperbole is only valid when the thing that its referencing is an issue at all. Smash 4 stages are far from Mute City clones, if you think so then you're either an idiot or a troll.


"Okay."

You clearly don't understand why it's ironic. You're claiming that competitive players should respect your way of playing when you're doing anything but that by claiming that the way we play is the reason why the game isn't "fun" or "fair". Don't tell us we should respect you when you've been blatantly disrespectful to our philosophy this entire time.


"Brawl had competeive potential. But people did not want it to they just wanted a second Melee so the meta basically died."

No, the meta died because it was A: Overly centralized around a single character, B: Overly centralized around defensive campy play that people got sick of, C: Lacked depth, and D: the game itself having multiple stupid mechanics (Eg. tripping, hitstun cancelling, momentum cancelling, ledge invincibility abuse, etc.).


Here's the problem with Brawl, Sakurai during the development of it specifically made it so that it would not have appeal to competitive players which is completely idiotic. Attempting to prevent someone from ANY audience, casual or competitive, from enjoying the game the way they want to is the number 1 thing that you DON'T DO as a game designer. There are plenty of competitive games out there that keep their casual appeal while still being perfectly viable competitive titles. Easy to learn, hard to master, is what every competitive title should strive for. This way people that only want to play for fun can enjoy it but people that want to get really good at it can also do so.
 
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Elin

Your face is strange... Is it always like that?
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
235
Location
Pora Elinu
NNID
ShinySilverEevee
3DS FC
5301-1189-1305
So, does anyone want free popcorn?

This is getting good.

Oh, and there's extra :salt:, too!
 

Delta Chae

The Observer
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
194
Location
Indiana
So, does anyone want free popcorn?

This is getting good.

Oh, and there's extra :salt:, too!
I'm probably not going to respond to him again. It's very clear that he doesn't want to see this from anyone's perspective but his own and he's incapable of understanding anything that contradicts his own thoughts.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
I'd say I want some pop-corn, but I don't know if I want to read novels as I follow this along.
 

Foxus

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
620
NNID
Greatfox1
Interesting piece,.

We actually had a Classic Mode
Okay, so we have a Classic Mode in Smash 4, but its actually a Classic Mode we've come to love and adore. Its that classy ability to choose between 1-5 stocks and from Very Easy to Intense without sacrificing hefty amounts of gold, over and over again until we finally beat the mode on its hardest difficulty.

We have a Adventure Mode
While I never actually got all 100% completed in Subspace (its technically 83% when you beat Tacuu) , it was still a Adventure Mode; the mode that made Smash special passed down from Melee. I really was bummed up seeing Smash 4 didn't have a Adventure Mode. I enjoyed the cutscenes too, just wished actual dialogue had been made possible. We know Mario and Fox talk, make em talk.

Pat Cashman as a narrator
Short and sweet, Pat's voice didn't sound mellow and was more intimidating and resonant than Xander's is.

Wolf
The creature that was one of my favorite newcomers other than King Dedede. I really hope the dude comes back via DLC. I'd sell Lucas to get Wolf.

Fox's voice
This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I liked Fox's voice from Melee better than the Assault-based voice he was given, but anything would be better than the whiny adolescent voice he has now. Me ears bleed.

I don't have a glossary of competitive terms in my mind (supposedly all this time I've been a "casual") so I can't competitive any competitive insight on Brawl other than the thought Yoshi is much better in Brawl than in Smash 4.
 

ლ(╹◡╹ლ)

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
53
Interesting piece,.

We actually had a Classic Mode
Okay, so we have a Classic Mode in Smash 4, but its actually a Classic Mode we've come to love and adore. Its that classy ability to choose between 1-5 stocks and from Very Easy to Intense without sacrificing hefty amounts of gold, over and over again until we finally beat the mode on its hardest difficulty.

We have a Adventure Mode
While I never actually got all 100% completed in Subspace (its technically 83% when you beat Tacuu) , it was still a Adventure Mode; the mode that made Smash special passed down from Melee. I really was bummed up seeing Smash 4 didn't have a Adventure Mode. I enjoyed the cutscenes too, just wished actual dialogue had been made possible. We know Mario and Fox talk, make em talk.

Pat Cashman as a narrator
Short and sweet, Pat's voice didn't sound mellow and was more intimidating and resonant than Xander's is.

Wolf
The creature that was one of my favorite newcomers other than King Dedede. I really hope the dude comes back via DLC. I'd sell Lucas to get Wolf.

Fox's voice
This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I liked Fox's voice from Melee better than the Assault-based voice he was given, but anything would be better than the whiny adolescent voice he has now. Me ears bleed.

I don't have a glossary of competitive terms in my mind (supposedly all this time I've been a "casual") so I can't competitive any competitive insight on Brawl other than the thought Yoshi is much better in Brawl than in Smash 4.
plus we actually had the ''Pokemon Trainer'' which I really liked having the option of 3 characters. :007::002::006:
 

Foxus

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plus we actually had the ''Pokemon Trainer'' which I really liked having the option of 3 characters. :007::002::006:
Oh yeah, probably Ivysaur and Charizard were the best. Charizard for his power, Ivysaur for his speed.

Squirtle I could give or take. He's really effective if he's given a giant mushroom.
 

Drevis2

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Brawl is a better game than melee, but melee is better as a competitive game, imo although I like them both in both ways.
 
D

Deleted member

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I still adore Brawl and will ardently defend it to this very day no matter what. Even if I focus on PM and Smash 4 nowadays, I still enjoy playing Brawl. It's a game that means a ton to me since even though Melee was the game that go me into Smash, I had so many good memories of Brawl's hype (I squealed so hard when Sonic was revealed, and checking the Dojo for something new every day was so cool for me as a kid) and playing through it for so many years until Sm4sh came out was such a great time especially since I invited my friends over to play with me and stuff. It also gave me some comfort due to how rough my middle school years were but that's besides the point of the topic.

Even though tripping does and always will suck, Brawl is capable of being exciting competitively. Even if it is at a slower pace than the rest of the games I really don't mind it personally. People always go around like Brawl had no real advanced tech to speak of or could be played smart. DACUS, edgehogging, certain tech for characters (The Flight of Ganon and Lucas' Magnet Pull and Zap Jump for example) are just some to name a few.

A good amount of the low-tier characters were relatively unexplored, such as Lucas, Ness and Pokemon Trainer (TheReflexWonder aside). I feel like that if MK and the ICs had a universal ban (sorry Icies, I love ya but you are kind of a huge problem) then the meta for Brawl would be much less toxic and not be overpopulated by just those characters. At least in Melee despite Fox and Falco being the most popular choices in competitive play, some characters have a chance at beating them if the time and effort is put into it. Considering Melee, PM and Smash 4's dominance at the moment, maybe it'll be a while if we ever see Brawl revived. I'd still love to see it happen, crossin' my fingers.

Here are some tourney matches I find pretty dang nice, personally. Hopefully they prove my point that Brawl is tourney viable.



^(Please skip to 12:55 on this one!)^

 
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Drevis2

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Brawl is actually faster than Smash 4 in some ways, and it is more technical as well. The only real techs I can think of is Sm4sh is Lunar landing and Perfect Pivoting. Perfect pivoting was in brawl too, though. Brawl is underrated imo, I agree the physics in melee fit competitive play more, but I have fun playing brawl competitively as well. <3
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
brawl sucks guys. melee is the best game
What an insightful post.

Care to elaborate? Even if Melee is the most technical game in the series I personally don't think it's the outright best. It's still a great game, but still. Just my two cents.
 

NitroSSBM

The coolest Falco of all time
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What an insightful post.

Care to elaborate? Even if Melee is the most technical game in the series I personally don't think it's the outright best. It's still a great game, but still. Just my two cents.
I guess now I've got to make a knowledgeable post.

I started on Brawl. After about two weeks I switched to Project M, because I had some friends who had said Project M had better mechanics and brought a 'melee' feel to Brawl (keep in mind I still hadn't played Melee yet). I thought that this Project M mod was absolutely amazing, but I still knew there was something missing. I then started playing SSBM and I thought it was awesome. I liked that by learning a few advanced techniques, you could distance yourself from the worse, newbie players and make the game exponentially faster. I played Brawl a while back, to see what it was like in comparison to Melee. I realized that what Nintendo had done in Melee was magic.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
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I guess now I've got to make a knowledgeable post.

I started on Brawl. After about two weeks I switched to Project M, because I had some friends who had said Project M had better mechanics and brought a 'melee' feel to Brawl (keep in mind I still hadn't played Melee yet). I thought that this Project M mod was absolutely amazing, but I still knew there was something missing. I then started playing SSBM and I thought it was awesome. I liked that by learning a few advanced techniques, you could distance yourself from the worse, newbie players and make the game exponentially faster. I played Brawl a while back, to see what it was like in comparison to Melee. I realized that what Nintendo had done in Melee was magic.
PM is Brawl deal with it, just because the creators hacked a few stuff that makes it a new game please no. You're playing a hacked version or modded version of Brawl just like Brawl plus, Brawl minus and so forth.
 

Delta Chae

The Observer
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PM is Brawl deal with it, just because the creators hacked a few stuff that makes it a new game please no. You're playing a hacked version or modded version of Brawl just like Brawl plus, Brawl minus and so forth.
To say that PM is Brawl is horrendously inaccurate. You say that PM was made into a different game but that doesn't make it a different game, that is the most blatant contradiction I've ever seen. The balance and mechanics of the two games are so different at this point that aside from some of the stages,the roster (Sans Roy and Mewtwo), and the basic gameplay elements, the two have nothing in common. PM's existence does not contribute to the argument that Brawl is the best Smash game. If anything it calls that claim into question because of the fact that it's very existence means that people felt the need to change Brawl because they thought it wasn't good.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
Joined
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To say that PM is Brawl is horrendously inaccurate. You say that PM was made into a different game but that doesn't make it a different game, that is the most blatant contradiction I've ever seen. The balance and mechanics of the two games are so different at this point that aside from some of the stages,the roster (Sans Roy and Mewtwo), and the basic gameplay elements, the two have nothing in common. PM's existence does not contribute to the argument that Brawl is the best Smash game. If anything it calls that claim into question because of the fact that it's very existence means that people felt the need to change Brawl because they thought it wasn't good.
It's Brawl fused with Melee. Get over yourself and you believing PM was made from scratch without the assistance of Brawl the video-game. is futile. PM is an enhanced version of Brawl just like the rest of the mods. Thanks.
 
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