"I have an a refutation for every single one of your "points" so since you insist I'll tear them to shreds."
Except for the fact that your previous post was so bad you didn't even bother defending it I would assume.
'But if you think about it the only people who don't like brawl are a minority that likes to play smash bros in a very strange way.'
"This is a statement made with no evidence to back it up. There are plenty of casual players who didn't like Brawl for one reason or another and there are plenty of casual players who like Brawl. To claim that the only people that didn't like Brawl were in the minority is an arrogant statement to make especially with no evidence to back it up."
Hearsay. I have never even seen someone outside of the Internet and tornaments that doesn't hold brawl as the best smash game.
'Why do I say that? Because brawl has sold the most by far and I have never seen someone who doesn't like brawl outside of here and Tornaments.'
"First of all: Sales numbers =/= quality. There are plenty of great games out there that sold like crap (Like Dragon's Dogma) and plenty of terrible games that sold great (Call of Duty Ghosts). Secondly, anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. Also, the raw number of copies sold for Brawl might be highest but a higher percentage of Gamecube owners owned Melee than the percentage of Wii owners who owned Brawl. To elaborate: the Gamecube sold 21.74 million units worldwide, Melee sold over 7 million units (An exact number has not been released so we'll just use 7 million). Meanwhile Brawl did sell 12.77 million copies BUT the Wii sold 101.52 million units. If we do the math then 32.2% of Gamecube owners owned a copy of Melee but only 12.6% of Wii owners owned a copy of Brawl."
Software sells hardware not the otherway around. The wii was a horrible console that sold great because it had great games. Plus I wasn't using sales to prove brawls quality. It was to prove what I said earlier about its reputation.
'People in the "competitive" community think that their rules are the "best".They turn all items off and ban 95 % of the levels. They only do 2v2 or 1v1. Why? Because tornament people decided they want smash bros to be a button masher. Their is WAY more strategy with items on. The way you place and use them greatly affects your ability in the match. They claim items off is to minimize cheap kills and randomness. While this is true for some items (poke balls come to mind) there is no reason they should ALL be banned ALL the time.'
"They do all of that for good reason. The West Coast in the early years of Melee's metagame played tournaments with items on and only a few banned stages. People found out very quickly that it would not work, the rumor is that it was a Grand Finals set being determined by a Bob-omb spawning on top of someone as they threw out an attack that broke the camel's back. Not to mention that items by no means balance the game, items would only make the top tiers better and low tiers worse. The same applies to stages that are banned, they are banned because they either A: Give a disproportionate advantage to one or more character (Corneria for instance heavily favors Fox in Melee due to its extremely low ceiling making Fox's already powerful vertical KO potential completely broken), B: Possessing too many random elements so that the emphasis shifts to fighting the stage rather than fighting each-other scrolling stages are the biggest offender of this, or C: All of the above."
Just ban the 1hit KO items then. Most items are not that powerful. How exactly does more options for everyone make the low tiers worse and the top tiers better.
I don't like most of the scrolling stages eather. But they really need to lax the stage bans. Three out of 30 + stages being legal is just boring. It doesn't help that smash for wiiU has terrible stages. Even smash for 3ds has better stages then the wii u version.
The smash community needs to except that their game is not 100% fair 100% of the time. Rigid rulesets are killing what could be an incredibly diverse and flexible expirience.
Also THE RULES DONT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE THE SAME. If you hate bombombs or whatever go to a tornament where that stage, item, character, ect is banned. There doesn't have to be one "correct" ruleset.
"You seem to be incapable of understanding WHY items are banned. It's not because they don't take skill to use, nobody denies that there is skill in using items, the reason items are banned is because their spawns are completely random and often times unfair. Picture this, you're at Evo, it's Grand Finals, you've worked your way through the winner's bracket and your opponent is coming from loser's. It's game 5 last stock, you're on a fairly fresh stock at 50% and your opponent is getting thoroughly trashed with 130%. All you need to do is land one solid hit and the tournament is yours. Suddenly a beetle spawns next to your opponent, they pick it up, knock you into hitstun and then throw it at you while you can't air dodge. That would infuriate anyone because suddenly a game that was all but won was just lost because RNG decided to screw over one player. If items had set spawn locations at set times with an indication as to which item would spawn then we could talk about whether or not they are tournament worthy but as long as items spawns are random they will remain banned."
So what I have died at 50% to a 125 % in the last stock of a set because a luigi accidentally hit me with the super jump punch while he was recovering.
here is a list of ways I have seen people lose a set in a "fair" match.
1 nesses bouncing off the ledges instead of grabing them.
2 a captain falcon got his up b gimped by a pikachu spaming nuetral b at the ledge.
3 a lugi lost his second jump to sheiks needles and was to far away to up b
4 a lucario got grabbed by a Gannondorfs flame choke and they sd with Gannon wining the match (possibly because he was player 1)
5 When someone goes to the star fox stage someone always dies trying to recover when the stage is tilting away from them.
6 every other set someone losses a match because they failed to sweetspot the ledge
This is just a few examples but I don't see how this is somehow more fair then being killed by an item.
"Doing 1v1 and 2v2s has nothing to do with wanting the game to be a button masher, it has to do with 1v1 placing emphasis on player to player interaction and 2v2 placing emphasis on teamwork and coordination. Once again I will point you to the West Coast which used 4 player free for all as the tournament standard early in Melee's competitive lifespan, the results were, to put it bluntly, a mess. The whole point of a tournament is to figure out who the most skilled player is, the problem with 4 player free for alls is that people know who the better player is so the lesser players will call a truce and gang up on the better player to eliminate a threat. If you don't think this would happen, it already has "King of Smash" Ken Hoang used to get ganged up on all the time during this phase of Melee's metagame, sometimes he would still win but more often than not he would lose. Once tournaments switched to the 1v1 and 2v2 format tournament results became a lot more consistent and therefore much more credible.
Yes it does. In 1v1s everything is absolute. Someone is eather for you or against you. In a free for all its much more blurred opening up new stradigies and possibilities for manipulation. It is no longer all about being the fastest. It is about being the smartest.
'And this applies to the stages to. People try to emphasize "reads" but you can't really do it unless the player you are fighting is really bad because good players actively make sure they are not being predictable. It's just a guess. If "reads" where real then why are the heavyweight characters the worst in EVERY GAME. All that really seems to matter is tech skill and being able to input as many attacks per second as possible. Look at how button mashy characters Sheik, MetaKnight, and Fox are all very strong and how more deliberate characters like bowser, Ike, and Gannondorf are all very weak in comparison. It basically turns smash bros compitions into who can reserch the most tech during school and skip the most homework learning it and lose the most sleep improving your reaction time.
If you don't you lose. Doesn't matter how stupid you are if you play the game more you automatically win.'
"See previous section about stages.
Reads are real and hard reads do happen sometimes among the top players. The problem is when you're RELYING on reads to secure KOs rather than using them as one possible method of doing so and that's why heavyweights are so bad because they NEED to get those hard reads to KO in the first place. Characters like Fox, Marth, and any other top tier characters CAN secure KOs using reads but they can also combo you to death, they can reliably bait you into an attack that they can punish, and they can also edgeguard or gimp you. Reads are ok when used as one possible method of KOing, using them as your ONLY method does not work and never will work."
Like I said reads are fake. Every now and then someone will guess right but it is not reliable and barely relevant.
"Ok, we get it, you don't like button mashers, in that case stay far away from any competitive fighting games because you're clearly not cut out for it. I also like your pathetic attempt at insulting tournament players. I didn't start doing tournaments until I got into college and I haven't lost any sleep nor have my grades suffered as a result. Not to mention that if you play stupidly it doesn't matter how many hours you have in the game, stupid play is stupid play no matter who's doing it. I've seen well seasoned players get taken down by fairly new players just because they were playing poorly, I've taken out a well seasoned player when they were playing poorly, it happens sometimes regardless of hours logged."
It doesn't matter if the player is stupid. When you fight someone how plays more then you they can just shield/dodge everything you throw at them and their character moves in erratic unatural ways that makes it feel like you are trying to catch smoke. They react faster then you, their moves are timed better and feel like they have way more range/speed then your attacks even if it is a mirror match. Unless you do something that is down right ******** you will win if you play more.
'This set up is one of the main reasons meta knight was so powerful. The rule set benefits him in the same way that banning stages with platforms would benefit projectile campers and banning everything except walk off stages would benefit characters with bad recoveries. Take away the rulesets and suddenly he is much more balenced.'
"Ummm..no. You don't know anything about competitive Smash whatsoever. There IS a stage without platforms, it's called Final Destination and it's considered one of the least balanced stages in competitive play while not being horrendously skewed toward one character or another. Meta Knight's dominance had NOTHING to do with stages you simpleton and EVERYTHING to do with how overwhelmingly powerful his kit was compared to everyone else. As for walk off stages, no, the reason they're banned is because someone can just camp as the blast zone, at this point one of two thing will happen A: the other player will approach, get grabbed, back thrown, and that's one stock gone regardless of percent or B: the camping player will get hit and lose their stock regardless of percent. Now this sounds fair right? Here's the problems with it, A: it's not interesting to watch in anyway whatsoever, and B: a player that knows what they're doing can make it so that if they're camping they will get the kill every single time."
I am pretty sure that you failed to read my post correctly.
'Brawl was more about using the strengths of your character and exploting the weaknesses of your oponents character. In melee it is literally nothing but tech spam and smash 4 is just having faster reflexes as their is no tech and the characters tend to not have any real advanteges or disadvantages against the others making everything feel a bit more like a mirror match.'
"First of all: bull****."
I bet you are glad you got that of your chest. You must be pretty mad by now. Moving on.
"Second of all: you are showing that once again you know NOTHING about competitive Smash. Melee is not tech spam, if it were then Chilean Fox player DARK would be the number one player in the world right now, want to know why he's not? Because his fundamentals (Spacing, not getting hit, match-ups, neutral game, punishes, DI, etc.) are extremely lacking compared to other top players (He gets beaten on a regular basis by other top players in his area), his extreme emphasis on tech skill worked for a while but people eventually figured out how to exploit the holes in his strategy. Melee has just as much emphasis on fundamentals as it does on tech skill, the first thing any starting Melee player will learn is that strong fundamentals with basic tech will take you far, bad fundamentals and all the tech in the world will amount to nothing but a bunch of flashy inefficient moves. Smash 4 is extremely similar to Brawl (Newsflash kid: Brawl had barely any tech to speak of either) so the fact that you are criticizing Smash 4 is extremely ironic and kind of pathetic."
Do I need to put (Hyperbole!) in parentheses for you? Do you think that I think that you can win by only using tech and not even know how to
recover? You need to be fast and of course have played the game more then your opponent to win.
I am not critisizing smash 4 for lacking tech. I am critisizing it for feeling like a mirror match all the time learn your reading comprehension already. And brawl certainly had more tech then smash 4. Dacus, chain grabbing, edge hogging, ect...... I could go into more specifics but charaters all have their own unique tech and lag cancelling potential.
Take falco for example. Falco can lag cancel his nuetral and side b. He can cancel his dash attack early to charge up smash while sliding across the stage or cancel it late and dash attack into up smash combo. He can chain down throws on various characters with various percentage. He can also spike somone out of a chain throw or combo into a charged up smash, or combo into a dash attack into up smash combo. He can short hop and shoot two lasers at once with zero lag. He can force a getup by shooting a laser at somone who missed a tech.
And that is just one character. The tech is there but it is not as over powered or mandatory as the melee tech was.
'Outside of the meta game is were it really shines though. And people forget how small the meta game really is.'
"Do you even know what the metagame is? I don't think you do. The metagame IS tournaments regardless of what you think of it. To put it simply, to play the metagame means you play to win. This means using the optimal strategy REGARDLESS of how boring or cheap it might be. You might be unable to understand this but in tournaments there's money and pride on the line, any notion of "honor" is out the window and should not even be a consideration."
I think you failed to read my post correctly.... again.... Buy outside of the meta I mean outside of tornaments. Such as playing online, playing single player, playing with friends ect....
The other games lack in this regard.
'Brawl had the best online.
In smash 4 you basically have two choices
1 only play on final destination with no items
2 play with all items on a random stage with four people that comes up as one of the mute city clones or that awful wrecking ball stage 98.7% of the time'
"That would be fine, if Brawl online even worked in the first place. The few times I played Brawl online the lag and desynchronization was so bad that I was struggling to even figure out what the hell was going on. I am not the only person who had this problem, it was a universal criticism of Brawl. Don't try to tell me "Your connection sucks". I have the same connection quality now that I did 5 years ago and I can play Smash 4 online with very few problems."
Admittedly It took longer to find a game in brawl. But the actual gameplay lags in the wiiu version just as much as in brawl. Besides brawl is an older game. What is the wii u games excuse?
'In brawl you can turn any item on or off or pick any stage and your settings will be randomly selected from the other players choices.'
"OR we can have a certain gametypes that players select from and they will only play in that style. While I do think For Glory is very poorly done it's much better than just saying "Pitch your votes in and we'll pick one at random" because inevitably you'll have someone who wants to go to Final Destination with no items and someone else who wants to go to 75m with all items on. While the separation in Smash 4 was very sloppily implemented, it at least ensures that people will be playing the kind of people they would want to play."
I would like smash 4s online if for fun was like basic brawl. For glory would be more popular amoung tornament players if it let you go to legal stages. (Everyone knows that for glory was made for the tornament players why not speak to them and actually follow their rule set in it)
'In smash 4 the devs try to force you to play the way they want you to buy adding a terrible banning system
1 if you leave or disconnect you will have a ban
2 if you don't move enough(even if you still move a little bit) for 30 seconds you will be kicked and get a ban for disconnecting
3 you will be kicked for killing someone a lot in a free for all and get a ban for disconnecting
4 if you use peach and pluck an item out in 4 glory you will have ban for cheating
5 number 3 may be triggered by an item or assist trophy
6 number 3 May be triggered for no reason.
7 Butthurt tryhards can try to report you'
"Number 1 will not happen the first few times you do it. If you really don't want to play the match then just SD until you're out (For Glory only)."
For glory is boring.
"Number 2 does not happen period because of the nature of this game, if you're standing still doing absolutely nothing for more than 5 seconds outside of possible mindgames you're playing wrong."
Just because you move a little every 5 seconds doesn't mean you won't trigger the idoling ban. It doesn't work that way. I have been kicked multiple times because it was just a campy match and now I have to actively try to not trigger it because if I power sheild a link for to long I will get kicked and suspended.
"Number 3 is ridiculous, but almost nobody plays "For Fun" so it's a moot point."
Ah here is an example a statement with no evidence. I could just as easily say that nobody plays for glory but they do other wise no one could find a game on it. Just because you don't play for fun means it might as well not even exist am I right?
"Number 4 was patched"
Good.
"Number 5 is redundant."
Now imagine for a moment, if you will, that you are on for fun and player four is playing little Mac and you are going to try to avoid killing him again so you don't get suspended. Then you throw a pokeball and krogre kills player four twice and triggers a suspension.
"Number 6 does not happen that I know of."
It only happens in for fun.
"Number 7 is true but those reports will be ignored 99 times out of a 100."
doesnt matter you shouldn't get banned for having fun in for fun mode. Limit bans to for glory. please
'In brawl you could do whatever you want. So player 2 is bothering you? Start an aliance with player 3 and go get him. So you are tired of a truce? Go crash that taunt party. Sick of fighting on battlefield? Go to hyrule and try to get a taunt party going. This was way more fun and let you have all kinds of interations with the other players. There was even a code
crouching means "I'm friendly"
Pink Captain Falcons down taunting are asking for a truce
Jabing someone once means "let's even the score so we can see who can survive the longest in sudden death"
Playing as the same character as someone means you want to start an aliance with him or that you are his rival
Sd ing after somone attacks you means "I don't want to fight"'
"This all sounds like something you pulled out of your ***. I've never heard of any instance of this happening anywhere from anyone."
once upon a time entire threads on various forums were dedicated to promoting this sort of communication but alas basic brawl is no more. But if you go to for fun and crouch a lot eventually someone will crouch back. This is a former basic brawl player who still remembers this type of communication. He will also probably try to team up with you after this. I know this definitely works because I have started 3 way alliances hundreds of times by communicating in this way.
'There was always something to do in brawl but smash 4 and Melee just get old when you are at home.
The subspace emissary is epic.
The stage builder is much faster and more precise then the wii U one.
The graphics had a more gritty apearence that felt more like they belonged in a fighting game.'
"The first one is your opinion. I still play Melee by myself strictly for the purpose of keeping my tech skill on point and sharp, I'm still not bored of it. See how opinions work?"
Yes they are used to avoid losing an argument due to having absolutely no evidence to back something up other then an emotion.
"The Subspace Emissary was not a good thing in my eyes. There's a reason why it was one of the more criticized aspects of the game overall. The environments I found to be very bland and boring compared to Melee's Adventure Mode which featured stages from Nintendo's history up to that point, not to mention, the God forsaken Great Maze."
I found the subspace emissary to be by far the best of the single player modes due to the cutscenes and unique gameplay. While the levels are a tad generic it has a great soundtrack and decent length. I would have liked to see an even better campaign in 4 but all we got was a freaking bored game.
"The stage builder is also very limited in scope compared to the Wii U version and it is NOT more precise or faster."
The wii u stage builder forces you to use a touch screen and the stage turns out to be a hopeless scribble that no one could ever seriously play on. Making a decent stage takes hours verses brawls which took minutes
"The graphics are one of my main grievances with the game. Because of the aesthetic I find that it's much harder to keep track of what's going on onscreen at all times because of how much the characters just seem to blend into the background if you're not looking directly at them. This is also one of the issues I have with Project M is that it keeps this aesthetic which has resulted in many a SD because it looked like I was about to go one way only to go the other, this is a huge problem on the darker stages. Smash 64 has its very simplistic style which makes the characters easy to pick out, Melee and Smash 4 have the characters have slightly more saturation than the background so it's easier to pick them out and the 3DS version of Smash 4 has the characters outlined."
This is one of the weirdest complaints......
Anyways you shouldn't lose track of your character. It's probably your lack of experience in brawl or your tv screen. They have very colored sheilds compared to 4 so you should know which sheild is yours and of course the name tag helps.
'Best character selection.
Best soundtrack.
Has the best stage selection outside of tornaments. Brawl has very diverse stages such as
Wario wear
Pictochat
Newpork city
Ice climbers
Shadow Moses island
Hannenbow
Spear pillar
Pokemon stadium 2
Luigis mansion
And many more. smash 4 just has 29 clones of mute city the 3 tornament stages, a couple rehashes, and that one yoshi yarn level.'
"This is all your opinion and the last point is just flat out wrong."
Opinionopinionsheild. And no the last point is not wrong it's just another hyperbole.
'I'm not trying to force you to stop playing the smash games you like. But you should really treat brawl and its fans with more respect. If you use the rules that were designed with melee in mind then of course Melee will be good at that rulesets. But I believe brawl is stronger outside of that ruleset.'
"Oh the irony, the unadulterated irony."
Okay.
"Before you throw a hissy fit and assume this means I hate Brawl, I don't. It never had competitive potential but it wasn't a bad game, that being said however it is the most unpolished game in the series."
Brawl had competeive potential. But people did not want it to they just wanted a second Melee so the meta basically died.
You seem to be pretty mad for someone who is suposedly able to tear all my points to shreds.
Have a good day.
, too!
