Brawl Dodging and Wavedashing: Why not both?

[Celestis]

I find StarCraft 2 to be harder.. I'm pretty good at StarCraft 1. 2 I can play, but lose way more often. The game is so much faster and I have never noticed a decline in it's competitive scene.
But this isn't the place for that.

 

[D-idara]

Melee Fox is significantly harder than P:M Fox. I do not know the technical differences other than the extra frame to short hop, but I struggle doing things in Melee that I do without even thinking in P:M. Others say P:M Fox is easier, too.

Difficulty doesn't necessarily mean exciting, that's true. However, one of the reasons that someone watches pro players play (as opposed to playing oneself) is often that those pro players are better than that person, as there is both a slight "awe" effect, and watching combos. If the difficulty of the game is lowered, those pro players become less better than that person, making that person want to watch pro players less. There's a reason that they put names of notable (notable = good, in this case) players in the titles of tournament streams. It makes people want to watch it more than a tournament with bad players, because they want to watch good players.

As a fun fact, if there is no pattern on the game you came up with, it would be impossible. It takes about 1/10th of a second (6 frames) on average for the human brain to process sensory information. You subconsciously compensate for it with prediction, but your brain cannot consistently correctly guess random information.



It's more of the principle of making the game easier, even though a short hop button would have at most a trivial effect. Let's exaggerate making the game easier. There is now a button that performs a waveshine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair combo automatically, a button that you can hold to dashdance that will do a SFFL'd nair towards the nearest opponent when you release it. All L-cancels are automatic, and the game stops for two seconds whenever someone does any attack and says "press shield now to powershield." That would definitely make the game less exciting to watch, and less fun to play. Anything that makes the game easier will have this effect, just on a much, much smaller scale.

If you're familiar with StarCraft, the same kind of thing happened between StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 as Melee and Brawl. StarCraft 2 is much easier, and has since suffered from a decline in the competitive scene and the overall player base. Just an example of making a game easier making it less fun both to play and watch. There also happens to be a custom game in StarCraft 2 designed to make it much more like StarCraft 1, a sort of "Project M" of StarCraft, but it's not very popular and also not the point.

Actually, being able to map the short hop to a different button would be a great idea, I mean, it's not exactly necessary, but music, graphics and content aren't strictly necessary either, and the game would be nothing without them.

 

[CeLL]

Actually, being able to map the short hop to a different button would be a great idea, I mean, it's not exactly necessary, but music, graphics and content aren't strictly necessary either, and the game would be nothing without them.

I wouldn't use it. As one who doesn't mess up short hops with the jump button, I'd rather map a button to shield to powershield easily than map it to short hop. I don't really see the point. It would just be a crutch for new players.

Also content is pretty necessary. Blank discs don't sell for very much.

 

[TreK]

Also content is pretty necessary. Blank discs don't sell for very much.

Tell that to Activision and Crapcom

Although I'm being unfair to Crapcom, their disks aren't blank. All the DLCs are already on the discs.

 

[Juken]

On the subject of air dodging, I think it's better the melee way because air dodging should be rewarded for doing it at the right time to avoid the attack, and it shouldn't be spammed. If you use it carelessly, it should have a punishment, and that punishment is you not being able to use anything until you land, leaving you open for enemy punishes or lack of recovery moves. One of the things I immediately disliked about brawl was the extra air dodges that you could spam, along with the floaty air movement.

On the subject of a short jump button, I think it'd be a nice thing to have. Short jumping isn't exactly advanced tech or anything, it's just something you do. Now if there was a key for something like wave-dashing or ledge hogging, that would be a bit too much of a crutch. There's already ways to jump (up stick, and the 2 buttons), one of the redundant ways can be replaced with a short hop bind.

 

[Smash G]

This is one of the things that I just can't go with the flow with. I know the competitive scene tends to love their wavedashing. But I don't. I enjoyed Brawl's dodging more and it doesn't feel as exploity (ie it's intended XP). Now if only Brawl didn't have tripping and was a bit faster...

 

[Juken]

Brawl's dodging imo was just really lame and made it way too easy to be evasive. While melee's does leave you kind of wide open, it's definitely a lot better than just spamming air dodge and using attacks.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You know what, let's look at this holistically for a second.

Let's start with Smash 64. Smash 64 was a groundbreaking and amazing game, as I'm sure everyone in the thread will agree, and was excellent for the franchise's first installment. However, as the first attempt, it obviously couldn't be perfect. Smash 64 had excessive hit-stun and poor defensive options, with no good way to escape combos and some near-guaranteed ways to break shields if you were foolish enough to hit that button. Recoveries were garbage, there were barely two good competitive stages and Pikachu was a cut above the rest of the cast, establishing a historical issue of the series with balance. Air-dodging was obviously non-existent.

People don't actually realize that Melee and Brawl aren't opposites. Melee is actually a middle-ground between the near-opposites that are 64 and Brawl. Where 64's defensive options are non-existent, Brawl's are abundant, with plenty of shield health, hit-stun cancelling and quick shield drop time. Garbage recoveries are replaced with magnetic ledges, low gravity and long-distance specials, with edge-guarding being extremely difficult. Of course, characters had unlimited air-dodges with no momentum shifts.

There's a strong case to be made that these are two extremes in terms of mechanics. The air is supposed to a disadvantageous position: You can't shield, grab, and unless you're Jigglypuff have more limited mobility. Options are removed and you are more vulnerable than on the ground. 64 made you completely helpless, while Brawl gave you a complete and utter out: Invincibility frames and hit-stun cancelling. Brawl's air-dodge was far too safe, essentially giving you free invincibility frames during the course of your trajectory, to the point where SHADs are a universal approach. Really? That is how safe the technique was, it was used to invade space and get in to start something.

Commitment. Defensive actions and offensive actions need to have commitment and counterplay. If you could not do the PM community the disservice of assuming all of their decisions are 'because Melee', you'll see that a single air-dodge that requires commitment is good design.