Brawl Dodging and Wavedashing: Why not both?

[Kaishin]

So, I'm not from a melee background. Definitely more of a brawl one. I've been adjusting little by little to Project M (which is definitely superior to both). I've gotten over the changes (most notably hitstun) by changing up my normal strategies, but there is one thing that I am having extensive trouble adjusting to: lack of brawl dodging.

As it stands, melee dodging was added back in for wavedashing. It also cancels momentum (somewhat) and puts a character into special fall. Is there any reason for this? What's wrong with having multiple air dodges?

Is there some sort of extreme physics abuse that can be done with being able to air dodge multiple times AND choose a direction? I don't think it should be there, though I'd like an explanation first, if there is one.

Secondly, why are the dodges so slow? I realize it's supposed to be like melee but not everything in melee was better than brawl. It hardly seems appropriate that dodging can't be used to, you know, actually dodge. >_>

At the very least, I think the standard no-direction dodge should work like it does in brawl. The melee-ers shouldn't have too much of a problem with this since it's not like you can wavedash with it anyway. Should at least make it more useful by making it actually useful for its intended purpose: dodging.

It doesn't need to cause special fall if it works like a brawl dodge. Plus, no momentum cancelling and extreme length means you aren't just stuck there in the air like a sitting (floating?) duck as your opponent sets up to give you the worst punishing of your life.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It was already tried. A hybrid airdodge doesn't work that well, apparently.

 

[Kaishin]

From a gameplay perspective or a programming perspective?

If programming you could easily fuse the two together (with the exception of momentum canceling. That would have to stay). Just make it faster and not cause special fall. <_<

 

[DrinkingFood]

From a gameplay perspective
there's probably a code laying around somewhere you could use to try it out

 

[Scuba Steve]

I figure that it could limit a lot of combos. Plus characters that benefit from being below their opponent a lot would probably get an unintended nerf.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ROB doesn't need nerfs

 

[Kaishin]

Most combos have to work off of hitstun anyway. You can't exactly dodge while getting locked into hitstun, so I hardly think that's the problem.

Passive Aggressive Edit: But thanks for actually telling me something useful Steve.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Most combos have to work off of hitstun anyway.

That's not true at all. Most combos work based off positioning to keep the opponent where they can't easily land and put up a shield or use an evasive option, good spacing to avoid combo breakers like fast nairs, and conditioning your opponent that their best option to get out of combos, their DJ, is actually a bad option against a patient player that will wait for a DJ then carry the helpless opponent offstage.
Brawl airdodges would be really silly in an environment where evasive maneuvers are emergency escape options and mix-ups rather than get out of jail free cards.

EDIT: Not to say that brawl's airdodge couldn't work with this. It's just that it would put a damper on the current combo system, and you'd need to rework a lot of characters who would lose their reliable punish games all in order for a hybrid airdodge to work right.

 

[Giygacoal]

Last time I've played, Brawl Minus has the hybrid wavedash/airdodge system for Fox. The mechanic is cool but not in the best interest of Project M.

 

[Spralwers]

The hybrid airdodge system for Fox was awesome. Their fix for the airdodges being too good at escaping combos was to disable dodging in the tumbling animation. In PM, you can cancel the tumble animation pretty easily by hitting the control stick left and right, but you can't do that in minus. I know in brawl you can airdodge in the tumble animation.

Project M wants to heavily reward the offense landing that first hit. Going back to brawl airdodges is a step away from that philosophy. That's my guess.

 

[CeLL]

The Brawl airdodge as I understand it would make edgeguarding very near impossible, as it is in Brawl, making successful hits less rewarding and making the game just a little bit campier.

Also why would we want being under your opponent to be not as good? That as well makes successful hits less rewarding and makes the game just a little bit campier.

Rewarding offense = action
Rewarding defense = camping

Action = exciting and fun
Camping = boring and more boring

 

[Giygacoal]

Defensive play is cool too imo. Also Bowser is defensive but not particularly campy. The game is best off with mostly offensive/mixed but a few dedicated defensive characters, which has proven to be the case.

 

[Celestis]

Brawl Air dodge in this game would break so many things. Its so free and spam happy. Add the faster falling speed to the Brawl's air dodge, and suddenly the risk factor would be removed and make for a very boring game to watch. People would be surviving. Brawl air dodge is good, to good. Being able to dodge and not have a draw back would just lead to loads of spamming. The Brawl dodge works okay in Brawl cause, well its slower and floaty. But add that to the speed of Melee, and its like get out of jail free for lack of a better term.

Also, it was not added just for Wavedashing. It was added cause it is far more useful then just an air dodge. It offers much more control over your character.

Its like the posters above me said. It was tried and added, but it just does not fit in a Melee environment. Its to easy and free.

 

[CeLL]

Defensive play is cool too imo. Also Bowser is defensive but not particularly campy. The game is best off with mostly offensive/mixed but a few dedicated defensive characters, which has proven to be the case.

Defensive characters make the game boring. I don't know about you, but I don't find watching two people stand on the opposite side of the stage for two minutes before one of the decides to try to bait the other one into approaching interesting.

Defensive play would be cool if there wasn't camping. But that's the fundamental problem with it: it encourages and heavily rewards camping.

 

[Celestis]

Think about how fast Fox and Falco fall. If you mixed Brawl dodge with a fast fall like that, Fox and Falco, or any fast faller for that matter could basically get from way up in the air to the ground completely free cause the dodge would last all the time.

Fox is deadly on the ground.. Do I need to say more then that?

 

[hotdogturtle]

All of the above posters pretty much explained all the reasons. The only thing left to add is that both air dodges were in the game for the first couple months of Project M's life. Watch the reveal trailer from January 2010, it's in there. The Brawl air dodge was later removed when it was decided, through playtesting experience, not to fit the environment of Project M and the goal that they were trying to achieve. So just realize that they didn't immediately jump on the Melee air dodge from the beginning "because Melee" (as people sometimes accuse them of), but they have already experimented with this idea and drawn a conclusion through experience.

 

[TreK]

It could perhaps work with a certain amount of modifications, like forcing a hard landing instead of a soft one, and going in freefall afterwards like the other airdodges.
That way it wouldn't be as hard to punish it, and it couldn't be used in recoveries too often, while still bringing in the advantages of the brawl airdodge like anti projectile approach, dodge dropping, a more natural trajectory for instant tossing, a decent alternative to a ledge roll above 100%, etc...

 

[Celestis]

So just realize that they didn't immediately jump on the Melee air dodge from the beginning "because Melee" (as people sometimes accuse them of), but they have already experimented with this idea and drawn a conclusion through experience.

Is a good point. B reversal and DACUS are proof of this as well.

 

[MLGF]

I see no reason a player shouldn't be punished for attempting to abuse a mechanic.
That's why, IMO, the Brawl airdodging was so bad. It's so much more braindead then PM. Even with increased hitstun, it feels significantly more shallow then Melee's.

 

[Terotrous]

With how much recoveries have been buffed, if you had the "get of out jail free" brawl airdodge edgeguarding would be virtually impossible.

I might perhaps be in favour of air dodges being sped up a little, so they would have more use as an actual dodge, but the commitment part generally has to remain.

 

[Kaishin]

Woah, hotdogturtle. Haven't seen that name in a while. How about dat gamefaqs?

The dodge could be made faster. Like... a lot faster. And have a lag time afterwards or a period that would disable dodging (but wouldn't be lagtime because other moves could be used).

Anyway, I definitely see why you guys said brawl dodging was bad, but what about special fall after melee dodges? Why is that in the game? Dodging takes such a long time that it's really easy to punish if you see it coming. Of course, that's a huge if in a fast fighting game, but the point stands that if you can dodge without getting hit because you managed to fake out your opponent, you shouldn't get punished with special fall. Since the dodge lasts so long and cancels momentum the opponent is practically guaranteed to hit the ground first. Depending on how crafty you are, you might be ready for him even in special fall, but in most cases it feels incredibly useful to bother air dodging. It shouldn't be an emergency measure.

And Celestis, what do you mean by melee dodging giving a lot more control over a character?

On an unrelated note, because I don't want to take up another topic, why is short hopping so much more difficult in this game? >_>
Any reason why we can't just have a button for it?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Woah, hotdogturtle. Haven't seen that name in a while. How about dat gamefaqs?
On an unrelated note, because I don't want to take up another topic, why is short hopping so much more difficult in this game? >_>
Any reason why we can't just have a button for it?

Um... There is a button for it... Two by default, actually

 

[Celestis]

Not going into free fall after an air dodge would just lead to another air dodge. I did have fox modded in brawl to have melee air dodge before PM was a thing and it did not go into free fall. So it meant I could just air dodge up over and over and over. So you never fall. It was silly and could recover from anywhere. x]

More control as in the Wave landings, the short burst of distance you might need to get to a ledge without having to use Up B. A quick escape to any direction. Just being able to move your self in any direction real quick by itself is control. You should try to use the dodge for more then JUST and air dodge and its depth and uses will come amazingly clear. Its called "Dynamic Air dodge" for a reason, ya know =3

Something in brawl that happened a lot was. with Ike a lot, Ike would charge an up smash as someone was falling down, they would aid dodge, but hit the ground right after witch canceled half of the dodge time meaning Ike's slow and powerful up/forward smash attack would kill that player anyway. The Melee air dodge stopping all momentum also guarantees you will get the full extent of the dodge and lets you dodge the entire attack. Then you hit the ground and punish them for thinking they could get away with such shenanigans!

 

[CORY]

On an unrelated note, because I don't want to take up another topic, why is short hopping so much more difficult in this game?

it's easier. by 1 frame. universal.

thanks, sakurai!

 

[Celestis]

it's easier. by 1 frame. universal.

thanks, sakurai!

Now I just wonder if that is a positive or negative thank you. x]

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah, the effects of being able to repeatedly melee-airdodge and not go into special fall should be obvious
you could just stall forever as some of the floaties, and even FFers would have huge recovery benefits and a harder time getting juggled

 

[shairn]

You go into fastfall after airdodging because otherwise it would help recovery way too much even if you were to prevent two airdodges per airtime, and provides an appropriate downside to having free invincibility frames and quick movement.

 

[Kaishin]

Well obviously it would be ridiculous if you didn't have a delay between dodges. I find it ridiculous you become helpless to attacks after doing the very thing meant to protect from attacks in the first place. A simply delay would work better. <_<

And what do you mean two buttons for short hopping. What buttons would these be?

And when I mentioned it's more difficult short hopping, I was referring to how big the window is in my controller. I have to tap the control stick much more precisely than I did in brawl. It's kind of weird actually. >_>

 

[9bit]

Well obviously it would be ridiculous if you didn't have a delay between dodges. I find it ridiculous you become helpless to attacks after doing the very thing meant to protect from attacks in the first place. A simply delay would work better. <_<

And what do you mean two buttons for short hopping. What buttons would these be?

And when I mentioned it's more difficult short hopping, I was referring to how big the window is in my controller. I have to tap the control stick much more precisely than I did in brawl. It's kind of weird actually. >_>

Most people find it easier to short hop with the X or the Y button, not the control stick. And those are the two buttons he was referring to.

 

[Kaishin]

Most people find it easier to short hop with the X or the Y button, not the control stick. And those are the two buttons he was referring to.

I figured. I meant a dedicated button to do it. It seems pretty intuitive to have a button dedicated to one of the most core mechanics of Melee, Brawl, and PM (and probably 64 as well, since shorthopping is present there too), so it surprises me it's never been done. I suppose smashboards isn't really the place to talk about that though.

 

[9bit]

Short hopping is really pretty easy if you practice.

Smash is primarily a 3-button game and a control stick. You have A which handles all normal attacks, aerials, tilts, and smashes. B is all your special moves. L/R is for shielding. Everything in the game can be accomplished using just those 3 buttons and the control stick. The grab button is just a combination of shield + A (that's why you sometimes shield when you hit the grab button).

Then the team just threw the action of Jump on all the leftover buttons. Think of the N64 version. All the c-buttons are jump. They were probably just like, oh well gotta use those buttons for something, throw jump on there. Sorta the same thing with the Gamecube controller, 2 jump buttons is kinda pointless, but there were again leftover buttons on the controller and they just threw jump on both of 'em. (Thankfully they put a shortcut for Smash attacks on the C-stick... god what a great idea that turned out to be.)

Anyway I got off track. Just work on your timing to short hop, it's quite easy. Remember that short hopping is accomplished not by pushing the button (or stick) lightly, but by letting go quickly. You have to release the button (or stick) within a certain number of frames for the short hop to go off. You can push it really hard and this will still work.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Holding down the jump button longer for higher jumps has been in games since Super Mario, man. It's not like the way you jump in smash is some outlier in the gaming world.

 

[Celestis]

I think part of your problem is that you are TRYING to use it like Brawl dodge and its getting you punished. You have to use your head when using it to evade and not all willy nilly like the Brawl dodge.

Also, going off what you said about the delay between multi dodges. Imagine a character like Luigi or Puff. Even with a delay between air dodges. A floaty character like that could stall for endless amounts of time and there recovery would be almost impossible to stop. jiggs would never fall.. You keep trying to justify the need for no free fall or penalty when it is they way it is for the right reasons. Just stop air dodging carelessly. This is not Brawl.

 

[CeLL]

I find it ridiculous you become helpless to attacks after doing the very thing meant to protect from attacks in the first place. A simply delay would work better. <_<

Airdodging is a primarily defensive ability, barring the movement techs the Melee airdodge comes with. Let's try not to reward it.

Rewarding offense = action
Rewarding defense = camping

Action = exciting and fun
Camping = boring and more boring

How about instead of airdodging, you hit them? That's more fun.

I figured. I meant a dedicated button to do it. It seems pretty intuitive to have a button dedicated to one of the most core mechanics of Melee, Brawl, and PM (and probably 64 as well, since shorthopping is present there too), so it surprises me it's never been done. I suppose smashboards isn't really the place to talk about that though.

A dedicated button would remove skill from the game (albeit a very, very small amount) and thus make top players not as good compared to casuals as they currently are, removing a very small amount of hype from tournaments and making them less exciting (just a very, very tiny little bit less exciting, but still). This is why Melee tournaments are more exciting than P:M tournaments. Melee's just a little bit harder.

 

[Scuba Steve]

CeLL, your reasoning sucks

 

[CeLL]

CeLL, your reasoning sucks

Assertions with no backing are silly. (Explain)

 

[Scuba Steve]

An extra frame in the window to do a short hop doesn't make the game any more or less exciting. Difficulty alone doesn't make something more fun or exciting to watch. If there was a game where it would randomly flash a button on screen that you needed to press within the next 2 frames, it would be very difficult. It would also be boring as **** and nobody would want to watch it or play it.

Arbitrary difficulty =/= more fun

 

[Celestis]

Lawl, short hop is not even a skill. Its basic play. Fussing over something so simple. Anyone can do it.

 

[LOGIA666]

So, I'm not from a melee background. Definitely more of a brawl one. What's wrong with having multiple air dodges?

I don't mean to be mean, but these two statements explain exactly why you don't understand why Brawl's airdodging was removed for Melee's.

Dodging infinitely in the air means no repercussions. Have you ever experienced a moment where you try to edgeguard, but your opponent airdodges once or twice and doesn't get punished for it? The helpless state of Melee's airdodge forces you to use it cautiously, and punishes you for using it poorly.

On top of that, a wavedash works by transferring momentum from the Melee airdodge into the ground. Brawl's airdodge has no momentum flow. No momentum flow = no momentum transfer. The coding on combining both would be difficult, and not worth the end result. Working hard for endless hours to MAYBE succeed in an idea that's not even a good one isn't something the PMBR likes to do.

 

[CeLL]

An extra frame in the window to do a short hop doesn't make the game any more or less exciting. Difficulty alone doesn't make something more fun or exciting to watch. If there was a game where it would randomly flash a button on screen that you needed to press within the next 2 frames, it would be very difficult. It would also be boring as **** and nobody would want to watch it or play it.

Arbitrary difficulty =/= more fun

Melee Fox is significantly harder than P:M Fox. I do not know the technical differences other than the extra frame to short hop, but I struggle doing things in Melee that I do without even thinking in P:M. Others say P:M Fox is easier, too.

Difficulty doesn't necessarily mean exciting, that's true. However, one of the reasons that someone watches pro players play (as opposed to playing oneself) is often that those pro players are better than that person, as there is both a slight "awe" effect, and watching combos. If the difficulty of the game is lowered, those pro players become less better than that person, making that person want to watch pro players less. There's a reason that they put names of notable (notable = good, in this case) players in the titles of tournament streams. It makes people want to watch it more than a tournament with bad players, because they want to watch good players.

As a fun fact, if there is no pattern on the game you came up with, it would be impossible. It takes about 1/10th of a second (6 frames) on average for the human brain to process sensory information. You subconsciously compensate for it with prediction, but your brain cannot consistently correctly guess random information.

Lawl, short hop is not even a skill. Its basic play. Fussing over something so simple. Anyone can do it.

It's more of the principle of making the game easier, even though a short hop button would have at most a trivial effect. Let's exaggerate making the game easier. There is now a button that performs a waveshine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair combo automatically, a button that you can hold to dashdance that will do a SFFL'd nair towards the nearest opponent when you release it. All L-cancels are automatic, and the game stops for two seconds whenever someone does any attack and says "press shield now to powershield." That would definitely make the game less exciting to watch, and less fun to play. Anything that makes the game easier will have this effect, just on a much, much smaller scale.

If you're familiar with StarCraft, the same kind of thing happened between StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 as Melee and Brawl. StarCraft 2 is much easier, and has since suffered from a decline in the competitive scene and the overall player base. Just an example of making a game easier making it less fun both to play and watch. There also happens to be a custom game in StarCraft 2 designed to make it much more like StarCraft 1, a sort of "Project M" of StarCraft, but it's not very popular and also not the point.