Brawl+ Character Balance Discussion: Character 5: SAMUS

[goodoldganon]

Hello fellow Brawl+ players! Before we begin, those of us in the Backroom would like to thank all of you for you patience in updates, your vigor in testing the codesets, and your overall love of the project. The coders knowing that you guys are getting full enjoyment out of these codesets makes all the hard work the put into this project worthwhile.

Now, the Backroom would like to try a little experiment that should help us wrap up the last pieces of this project. With most of the actual new physics of Brawl+ in place and finalized we can finally sit down and work out the character balance.

This will be a thread used to discuss the characters that the community truly doesn't have much experience with as well as the characters we don't hear much about. In order to have a post that will be taken seriously, try and provide us with reasons why your buff will help that character. Here is an example.

WARIO

Let's speed up his D-tilt a little to give him more options on the approach, or at least a good ground one. The Stinky Finger poke has good range (for Wario), pokes low, and sets up to combos pretty well. Add that with dash dancing and canceling and we can give Wario a usable ground approach. Something he severely lacks.

We can debate whether Wario needs this buff or not at a later time, but hopefully you can see what kind of suggestions we are looking for.

Now it's time for our fifth character, the female bounty hunter Samus. Samus is from the Metroid series which originally started in 1986. Samus quickly rised into Nintendo stardom with her stellar games; Super Metroid is regarded as one of the greatest games of all time. In the Smash Brothers games Samus is known for her projectile game. Though it didn't help her in 64, in Melee Samus was regarded as one of the better characters, thanks to the pressure that short hop missiles could provide.

Samus got what I like to call, 'The Captain Falcon' treatment when Brawl was released. A perfectly fine and balanced character in Melee, Samus was knocked way down with the release of Brawl. Her projectiles were stripped of their power and her D-smash is weaker now thanks to the removal of crouch canceling. Currently, Samus struggles getting kills. In Beta 4 her F-smash got a large knockback increase as well as less lag on her grab, but is that enough?

So what do you, the community, think of Nintendo strong woman, Samus? Please keep the ideas constructive and the posts intelligent. We thank you for all your work and hope you guys can continue to support the project through these last few steps.

Stop by the IRC to test out any new Beta codesets! We love seeing you guys in the IRC chatting it up and offering feedback. Sadly, we have no tentative release date for Beta 4, but get pumped because it's gonna be big!

 

[Cowbox]

Oh, boy. Where do I start with Samus.

- Maybe it's just me, but her missiles seem so slow nowadays. Maybe speed them up/increase power?
- I have yet to do anything useful with her Up-B like Melee, but I don't use her enough to know how that would be fixed.
- Her Fair is COMPLETELY useless as far as I can tell. This move would be great for racking up damage if it actually DEALT any.

I'd like to offer more insight, but I used her once in Brawl+ and was still put off with her being terrible. Does her D-tilt lead into many combos these days?

 

[Xaej]

A few points that I think can help Samus:

1) Faster Launch Time for Missiles
2) Faster Neutral Air
3) Faster Grab
4) Stronger Fsmash & Dsmash.

All I can think of right now.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I talked to a few samus mains and this is what we came up with:

Just a note:
Atm, samus feels as though she doesn't fill within the niche she belongs to. Yes she has a ton of combo potential, yes she has gotten a dramatic speed increase, but the problem is that it doesn't help her much at all, and it doesn't really feel like samus. She's weak.. she's in a power suit for godsake! A fast moving, combo-centric character is not really samus' style, especially when she can't kill at all. So keep this in mind as I go over what we believe Samus needs.

on top of the fsmash buff from the beta, which is nice, but doesn't help her all that much...

-Make Samus' fully charged shot much stronger.
-> It charges slower, you can see it from a mile away.. and it doesn't kill until like 120%. It's a piece of crap.

-Make super missiles stronger. Much stronger.
-> There is no question that samus' super missiles are pathetic. They move slowly, they inflict very little shieldstun, and they are very, very weak.
-> To balance this out (so you don't get juggled off the stage with a ****ton of these guys) we propose that we slow down her super missiles to compensate for the power we give them. (One of the Samus players I spoke to said this is important to preserve balance)

-Make Samus' sweetspotted nair stronger (so she can edgeguard with it).
-> This was suggested to me. The more I thought about it, the more I liked it. Not sure why, but it sounded appealing. It's supposed to help her edge guarding game.

-Make Samus' downB bombs blow up on contact
-> It'd just be too cool.

-Make Samus a bit floatier
-> Right now, Samus has pretty good mobility.. It helps her combo better, and right now, combos is all she has. But if we do give her these power buffs, she could easily become much too powerful. This is why we believe that to help keep Samus balanced, we believe that making Samus a bit more floaty will help keep her reasonable.

 

[iSpiN]

Play with the speed variables on the missiles on see how that goes.

 

[Ulevo]

Her charge shot needs to be restored. I don't think anyone will disagree with that motion. Yes?

 

[GHNeko]

Her charge shot needs to be restored. I don't think anyone will disagree with that motion. Yes?

More KB on the short, and shorten the charge time. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Increase charge shot KB. I would prefer to keep the charge time and damage the same.

Buff missle KB a little bit.

Leave dsmash alone! It can combo at certain %s.

Boost bair KB a little bit, enough to actually be a good finisher.

Faster zair? (Unnecessary, but would be so much fun.)

More nair KB.

And that's all I think she needs to be great.

(Since Fsmash was already buffed in KB.)

 

[maticMan94]

I talked to a few samus mains and this is what we came up with:

Just a note:
Atm, samus feels as though she doesn't fill within the niche she belongs to. Yes she has a ton of combo potential, yes she has gotten a dramatic speed increase, but the problem is that it doesn't help her much at all, and it doesn't really feel like samus. She's weak.. she's in a power suit for godsake! A fast moving, combo-centric character is not really samus' style, especially when she can't kill at all. So keep this in mind as I go over what we believe Samus needs.

on top of the fsmash buff from the beta, which is nice, but doesn't help her all that much...

-Make Samus' fully charged shot much stronger.
-> It charges slower, you can see it from a mile away.. and it doesn't kill until like 120%. It's a piece of crap.

-Make super missiles stronger. Much stronger.
-> There is no question that samus' super missiles are pathetic. They move slowly, they inflict very little shieldstun, and they are very, very weak.
-> To balance this out (so you don't get juggled off the stage with a ****ton of these guys) we propose that we slow down her super missiles to compensate for the power we give them. (One of the Samus players I spoke to said this is important to preserve balance)

-Make Samus' sweetspotted nair stronger (so she can edgeguard with it).
-> This was suggested to me. The more I thought about it, the more I liked it. Not sure why, but it sounded appealing. It's supposed to help her edge guarding game.

-Make Samus' downB bombs blow up on contact
-> It'd just be too cool.

-Make Samus a bit floatier
-> Right now, Samus has pretty good mobility.. It helps her combo better, and right now, combos is all she has. But if we do give her these power buffs, she could easily become much too powerful. This is why we believe that to help keep Samus balanced, we believe that making Samus a bit more floaty will help keep her reasonable.

I like these suggestions, but I don't think her super missles should be slowed down if KB is increased. She can nearly out run them at their current speed. My favorite suggestions are:

-Stronger Charge shot

-Stronger super missiles

-Stronger Nair

 

[GHNeko]

Also. Fast Fall Zair.

 

[kupo15]

stronger nair

allow actions out of the bomb jump

stronger charge blast

give her true 50% landing lag instead of the 25% she gets now

 

[Swordplay]

Also. Fast Fall Zair.

I argued this for the longest time that if zairs fast fell it would help samus link and toon link.

But I eventually gave up the argument. There was so much resistance. You might take some heat for this......Even though I somewhat agree with you. (AKA probably will never happen)






I agree with jiangs suggetions.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Fast fall zair is a MUST! F*** my suggestion of making it faster, just allow the fastfall!

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I like these suggestions, but I don't think her super missles should be slowed down if KB is increased. She can nearly out run them at their current speed. My favorite suggestions are:

-Stronger Charge shot

-Stronger super missiles

-Stronger Nair

oops, i meant the speed at which she shoots them, not the speed at which they travel.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Can we boost homing missile speed, boost how much they can home, or just up their damage(just 1 of the 3)? If we boost super missiles, the homing ones will become pointless.

 

[GHNeko]

Homing missles could stand to go a bit further.

 

[cobaltblue]

Bomb could use their melee properties. The abilty to provide a little breathing room is their only use besides recovery. Everyone else here has covered anything I can think of regarding her projectiles. Close combat wise I think she is fine as she can chain some of her moves or use them to get people off of her.

 

[jodo]

As a Samus main in Melee I agree with:

Increased KB of ChargeShot
Increased KB/Damage of Nair - and decreased lag afterwards - Bring back the Sex Kick! (sweet spotting is a new and exciting take on this I will admit!)
[Is probably impossible BUT] Disable Auto Ledge grab with grappling - so we can have some fun mind games to play when we're trying to come back to the stage. Also if you guys brought back the super extended grappling that would be awesome as well.
Lastly, perhaps the tiniest increase of KB on her bombs, which would give her just a *lilttle* more umphf in trying to come back - esp if the Melee-style grappling works out!

 

[Team Giza]

Increase Nair knockback (but do not make it a KO move). Just so its good for getting people off the edge or keeping them off.

Increase Knockback of chargeshot and super missiles. I don't think anyone disagrees here.

Make bombs explode on impact and have the bomb bounce animation be cancelable.

Make her slightly more floaty. Enough to make her approach (thanks to lagless aerials) and missile spam less powerful. This should only be done if we increase the power of her missiles. Make sure she is floaty enough to shorthop homing missile -> zair again.

 

[kupo15]

I don't think exploading on impact bombs are necessary. That would make her lagless approaches, bomb defensive game, and campy missles plus AC zair spacing really really powerful. She does need cancelable bomb jumping though

 

[matt4300]

I don't think exploading on impact bombs are necessary. That would make her lagless approaches, bomb defensive game, and campy missles plus AC zair spacing really really powerful. She does need cancelable bomb jumping though

If not the exploading on impact then atleast some damage.. they do piss poor damage. like 5-9 at most. and rarely ever hit.

but yeh

-Nair KB scaleing increase so its still good for combos at low %s but can keep people of the ledge (and possibly kill) at higher percents.
- Charge shot base KB increase, no explanation needed
-super missle KB scaleing increase... but wait they knock you up.... are we going to chaged the trajectory to?
-SOMETHING done about the bombs ... god **** they blow

 

[CyberGlitch]

To add to the suggestions above, slightly increase the damage (not knockback) of her forward air.

I still think her Up Smash needs fixed. Maybe the initial hitboxes of the attack should suck the person into it if it hits (just modify the trajectory to do this).

 

[The Cape]

I agree with all of Jiangs decisions except Samus physics. The ones she has now are excellent and the charge blast needs to do less damage in exchange for the knockback increase.

The nair is a great move for combos if you hit with the non initial hit, I think that should be preserved, but increase the strong hit so that it allows for another aerial finisher as well.

 

[nightSN]

im for...
-Stronger Charge shot

-Stronger super missiles

-Stronger Nair

-Faster & Stroner(KB & DMG) Missiles

-Stronger Charged Shot (KB)

 

[Greenpoe]

Buff her u-smash, give her the ice beam, and make homing missiles stun.

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

As a Samus main in Melee I agree with:

Increased KB of ChargeShot
Increased KB/Damage of Nair - and decreased lag afterwards - Bring back the Sex Kick! (sweet spotting is a new and exciting take on this I will admit!)
[Is probably impossible BUT] Disable Auto Ledge grab with grappling - so we can have some fun mind games to play when we're trying to come back to the stage. Also if you guys brought back the super extended grappling that would be awesome as well.
Lastly, perhaps the tiniest increase of KB on her bombs, which would give her just a *lilttle* more umphf in trying to come back - esp if the Melee-style grappling works out!

I agree with this! Definitely put the sex back in her kick . I don't main her but my roomate does so I have a lot of play time against her in melee and brawl +.

 

[Eight 52]

Interesting thought. Make it so uncharged shot gives a little stun Like Zamus's. There's literally no point in using it uncharged.

 

[kupo15]

I agree with all of Jiangs decisions except Samus physics. The ones she has now are excellent and the charge blast needs to do less damage in exchange for the knockback increase.

The nair is a great move for combos if you hit with the non initial hit, I think that should be preserved, but increase the strong hit so that it allows for another aerial finisher as well.

I don't agree with the blowing up on contact part.

And samus needs to be able to cancel the bomb jump

 

[cobaltblue]

Interesting thought. Make it so uncharged shot gives a little stun Like Zamus's. There's literally no point in using it uncharged.

Disruption is its used. For me atleast it is good for catching people at suprised when you a quick shot to stop someone from charging or need them to move.

 

[CT Chia]

faster missiles
stronger super missiles
stronger charge blast (maybe faster charge or shoot also)
way more kb on nair. it should be a kill move like it was in melee imo
faster bombs

 

[iSpiN]

A beastly charged Shot.

 

[IC3R]

Her boot wants its priority back plz...


But seriously:

1. Charge Shot (Stand-B) :: Increase the Launch Force on the semi- and fully-charged shots, but decrease the damage by 2%-4%;
2. Seeker Missile (Tilt-B) :: Increase the flight speed, because Jigglypuff can outrun these things on the ground ~_~ ;
3. Super Missilie (Smash-B) :: Increase the Launch Force slighty to allow for better projectile pressure;
4. Morph Bombs (Down-B) :: Increase the speed at which they come out, and allow the Bomb Jump to be cancelled by another Special or an Aerial;
5. N-Air :: Significantly increase the Launch Force on the initial hitbox, so Samus has another killing move;
6. B-Air :: Increase the Launch Force Growth Rate so its killing potential increases as the foe's damage gets higher (kinda like Samus' D-Tilt, right?).

 

[Iamthemovie]

Increase Charge Shot knockback
Bombs explode upon contact with opponent and Samus can perform another attack immediately after bomb jumping
Increase Nair knockback
Crouch Cancel

 

[goodoldganon]

I wanted to participate in this discussion a little more, but school work and a bad cold have prevented me. Either way, most of my suggestions have been posted. A reminder, at this moment in time we do not have a code to affect projectiles, so Samus changes will probably be on the backburner. Either way, it looks like we are all in agreement to fix her projectile game. Here are the suggestions I will be submitting:

1. Increase in N-air knockback (we are talking about increasing all sex kick knockback)
2. Increase knockback on Super Missiles and Charge Shot
3. Speed the missiles up. Both in time to launch and the speed they travel
4. Make the bombs more useful.

Anything else? I'll leave this topic open till late tonight and then we'll discuss doing anyone else.

 

[supersonicridley]

Definatly need to make the regular misiles fire faster, but have the super misles become way stronger

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Fast falling zair! For everyone!

 

[Anth0ny]

Her boot wants its priority back plz...


But seriously:

What he said.

Pretty much covers everything wrong with Samus.

 

[PanzerOceania]

more charge shot knockback

stronger super missiles.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

k let's move on

 

[goodoldganon]

k let's move on

I got drunk/wasted tonight. I'll open a new character tomorrw when I can see straight