Bowser's Moveset Analysis/Discussion (Pre-Release discussion)

[A2ZOMG]

My intuition suggests that Link and TL are considerably harder matchups than Sheik for Bowser, due to having more varied space control options that especially can punish the option of jumping very easily, which effectively makes Bowser's increased mobility a lot less useful. Throw in their MUCH safer tether grabs and good options for edgeguarding, I can't see Bowser doing well against them unless his potential to break shields somehow is overpowered.

I'm suspecting as the game develops, Bowser's matchup spread will look something like Little Mac's, in the sense that he'll have matchups that by design, he's just not very good in, and some other matchups that he wins pretty easily if the opponent lacks consistent zoning.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Apparently UpB can tank through projectiles. The question is how powerful the projectile is and if this even means anything for Bowser.

Recovery no doubt, but as a defensive OoS option, you may have to already be close to make it useful.

 

[Jerodak]

Sheik doesn't have the wide range if tools to gimp Bowser that MK has in Brawl.

Even Metaknight can't match Metaknight.

 

[MrEh]

I'm gonna reserve major judgement until I actually have the game, but I'm not seeing the major advantage that Sheik has. She is not MK. That is not even remotely close.

but as a defensive OoS option, you may have to already be close to make it useful.

Dunno why you'd be doing Fortress OoS if you WEREN'T close to someone.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Dunno why you'd be doing Fortress OoS if you WEREN'T close to someone.

As in, close but not near your shield.

 

[MrEh]

If Fortress isn't close enough to hit someone, then there's no reason to do it OoS.

 

[ImaClubYou]

If Fortress isn't close enough to hit someone, then there's no reason to do it OoS.

There's plenty reason to do it OoS even if no one is close. Because you just can, you're blocking a projectile and punishing landing lag, or you're following a tech chase, among others.

What I'm saying is using the armor it has to tank a projectile and hit them with the last hitbox which does pop opponents up.

 

[MrEh]

What I'm saying is using the armor it has to tank a projectile and hit them with the last hitbox which does pop opponents up.

That's not the same thing as doing it OoS though.

That's just running up and doing it. That's always been a legit thing, but it is not the same as running up and doing it OoS.

 

[ImaClubYou]

You never know. Shield just in case you get hit before performing the action right?

And it's always good to be safe, defensive play being favorable in Smash. Shielding lag is almost non existent since OoS is a thing. It's probably just muscle memory on many peoples part.

 

[Zigsta]

You should never just run up and shield "just in case you get hit." Never waste your shield, especially in Smash 4, where there's a lot more moves that wreck shields. Save it for when you really need to block an attack. Also, any high level player who notices you shielding out of nowhere will grab you like crazy. Many characters have throw followups now. Don't put yourself in a position to take 20-30%.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Ike's problem is he left himself open and his recovery was easy to intercept.

Bowser doesn't die. He also kills people at 60. His Down B breaks shields. His recovery isn't bad at all. UpB OoS is still great and at minimum better than Ike's. Fire Breath can pressure. Command Grab. More armor than Ike can ever imagine. Range on aerials that even some sword characters can't match.

Bowser is leagues different than Ike is in comparison.

Still doesn't change the fact that Bowser is still a large target and not exactly mobile.

Which is a problem not just for Bowser, but other characters of his ilk. Eventually, people will find out how to take on the fatties and starting taking advantage of their inherent shortcomings like the laggy attacks or limited mobility. Those who main those characters will have to adapt in some way, either changing their tactics so that the playing field is even or switch to a more "practical" character.

This isn't a problem exclusive to Super Smash Bros. either, the obligatory grappler character in varies fighting games are difficult to use but effective at best or objectively the worst character at worst due to a combination of large size and limited mobility hindering success.

 

[ImaClubYou]

You should never just run up and shield "just in case you get hit." Never waste your shield, especially in Smash 4, where there's a lot more moves that wreck shields. Save it for when you really need to block an attack. Also, any high level player who notices you shielding out of nowhere will grab you like crazy. Many characters have throw followups now. Don't put yourself in a position to take 20-30%.

Shielding in Smash 4 isn't as exaggeratedly bad as everyone is saying. It depends what move it is really. The case with every Smash as a matter of fact. Also, shields in Smash 4 last for a very long time if they are not hit. By that I mean they shrink very slowly.

And no, shielding just to shield in not a bad idea.

Just watch any Mango vs. Hungrybox match and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Still doesn't change the fact that Bowser is still a large target and not exactly mobile.

Which is a problem not just for Bowser, but other characters of his ilk. Eventually, people will find out how to take on the fatties and starting taking advantage of their inherent shortcomings like the laggy attacks or limited mobility. Those who main those characters will have to adapt in some way, either changing their tactics so that the playing field is even or switch to a more "practical" character.

This isn't a problem exclusive to Super Smash Bros. either, the obligatory grappler character in varies fighting games are difficult to use but effective at best or objectively the worst character at worst due to a combination of large size and limited mobility hindering success.

Bowser has decent mobility in this game. It's just not very applicable against legitimate zoning. It's much more applicable against someone like Marth, Lucina, Metaknight, or Shulk who can't spam a projectile and suddenly force Bowser to stop running. I would assume Bowser's matchups against characters like those are pretty fair, potentially within reason being favorable, where he gets to play traditional footsies and let superior damage and defensive options work for him.

This is obviously theorycrafting, but I'd suspect his matchup against ZSS could be decent, minus the fact he's so huge that ZSS gets to SH aerial space against him all day, and ZSS would juggle him really well. Just his ground game at a glance looks good against hers, given he's strong at similar ranges where ZSS wants to play.

It's likely that guys like Duck Hunt, Bowser Jr, Robin, Link/TL, and Megaman roll (pun not intended) him though.

 

[MrEh]

The case with every Smash as a matter of fact.

Smash 64.

And no, shielding just to shield in not a bad idea.

It is if there's no reason to shield in the first place.

We're not trying to say that shielding is bad. We're trying to say that shielding for no reason is bad.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Smash 64.



It is if there's no reason to shield in the first place.

We're not trying to say that shielding is bad. We're trying to say that shielding for no reason is bad.

If you watch people in 64, people tend to shield before they jump.

And I'm thinking you're misunderstanding something. I didn't say that you should hold the R button like a dumbass. More like shield for a fraction of a second and then perform an action.

 

[Hokori]

A common approach I notice are players running up > shield (with the intent to look for an opportunity to shield grab 9/10 times), then they end up getting grabbed after awhile. If they're thinking, they'll switch it up and fall back on that approach option. If not, they'll continue to endure punishment, since it's definitely no God-like option.

Personally, I only shield in the event I'm trying to perfect/power shield, punish a poorly spaced attack (following it up with a punish such as grab or whatever is ideal at the time [in these situations, I'm likely already in shield as I may not be looking to trade/challenge their attack with one of my own]), and in the midst of pressure (at the same time, I'm trying to think of what else to do to escape it).

IMO, shielding too often before performing an action can promote a reactive game rather than trying to be proactive as possible. Granted, sometimes you do have to be reactive, but I'd rather not play that way if I can help it, personally.

 

[Laambo]

So is it easier to use side B on opponents now? and What are his custom moves for side b I must know!

 

[Hokori]

So is it easier to use side B on opponents now? and What are his custom moves for side b I must know!

Here are his custom specials: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=130095479

 

[Jerodak]

In regards to the discussion on shielding and approach options, although it is relevant to Bowser, I'd just like to provide a friendly reminder that this thread is for discussing the character's moveset and his options/tools that he has at his disposal, this can include a bit of match-up discussion based on what we know, but I'd be best to keep any discussions as relevant as possible, I don't mind a bit of deviation here and there but I've also seen slight deviations on other threads spiral out into major derails. However, I do appreciate all of the contributions that have been made to the thread so far, and look forward to what we'll be able to uncover as Bowser's metagame develops a little further.

 

[Hokori]

Please refer to the new thread now that the speculation phase is over: http://smashboards.com/threads/bowsers-post-release-analysis-discussion-grand-opening.368511/