Bowser's Moveset Analysis/Discussion (Pre-Release discussion)

[Jerodak]

(For anyone looking at this thread now, it's contents are based entirely off of what information we had about Smash WiiU and 3ds Prior to the game's 3ds release in Japan. There is a good chance that much of this information could be irrelevant due to moveset properties possibly changing between the pre-release and post-release builds.)

We're gonna compile Bowser gameplay footage here and discuss confirmed changes to the moveset and perhaps formulate a few reasonable theories, nothing too out there please.

I forgot to label my findings as I posted them but since i'm pretty sure all but maybe two of these were posted at around this date I'll just consider them all the same date. Let me know if I'll need to break them into a three or four groups instead of two, there are a lot of links in there. The information compiled in the original post is going to mostly be little bits and peices of information looking at what Bowser can do from an entirely objective standpoint. So the links to these videos will just show things that Bowser is actually confirmed doing.

All theorycraft and speculation will take place outside of the original post, from percieved match-up viability to possible plays as long as it's related to Bowser's moveset in some way. Any contributions to the original post are appreciated but it will need to be factual data backed up, preferably, with visual proof; have fun!

Spoiler: (6/16/14)

Here's a general comprehensive look at Bowser's moves; we'll probably be able to base most of our discussion off of this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOEo0A7zVMU

Here are complete playthroughs of matches with Bowser that have been provided for analysis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnI3Sx4Hrc - (ImaClubYou's Contribution)

Here is some footage demonstrating Bowser's Launch resistance on some of his moves.

http://youtu.be/TvV3dYTEFNg?t=5m57s - Aerial Fortress

http://youtu.be/f0rnJeXedJY?t=2m1s - Up Smash Charge (This also confirms the landing hit of upsmash.)

http://youtu.be/SKC5KFwEhNM?t=1m35s - The airborne portion of the Flying Slam (Also, watch on a bit further to see the flying slam's new landing hitbox.)

Bowser bomb appears to have either armor or improved priority in the air, here's some footage of it winning against various hitboxes.

http://youtu.be/h3CugGrHnF0?t=3m16s - Villager's Up air (Three turnips)

http://youtu.be/kzURoGXCFPw?t=29s - Thrown Firebar


Bowser bomb also has a larger hitbox.

http://youtu.be/CtR6Jx_Dlu8?t=15m46s

http://youtu.be/jSVzk6sktUw?t=1m19s

Here's a good approximation of his standing grab range.

http://youtu.be/lL0F2BNCU2k?t=1m41s

Crawling is back!

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=19s

Bowser can Dash Cancel cancel his dash stop animation

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=1m35s

Bowser's new Bair can be short hop auto canceled

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=3m53s

---------------------------------------------------Here's a major contribution made by ibmutt--------------------------------------------------

Spoiler

Introduction


I thought you would be interested in what I found out.


Main Points


Bowser's stopping animation - not his dash animation - was interrupted by either his pivot animation or certain animations - jabbing or ducking. His stopping animation starts when you release the analogue stick or point it up or down. Bowser's stopping animation is interruptible, by most inputs, on frame 8. Bowser's stopping animation in Brawl was interruptible by most inputs as early as frame 14; the demo Bowser has a 43% decrease in stopping lag compared to Brawl.


Analysis


The main point is Bowser can interrupt his stopping animation on a frame eight. You can interrupt his stopping animation sooner for some attacks so seven frames is the maximum amount lag. In other words, assuming you've already started a dash you have a maximum commitment of seven frames.


Bowser can likely interrupt stopping with dashing on frame 8. For changing direction, this is faster than cancelling a dash with a shield in Brawl. I think shielding has a minimum of thirteen frames before it can be interrupted. In Brawl, the buffering window for reverse dashes is very tight. I'm not sure how the movement option compares with melee.



Explanation


"Bowser's stopping animation - not his dash animation - was interrupted by either his pivot animation or certain animations. "


In the video at least, ducking or jabbing never interrupted his dashing animation only his stopping animation. Play it frame by frame to see for yourself. I'll leave pivoting for another time or person.



"His stopping animation starts when you release the analogue stick or point it up or down."



To get a feel for this in Brawl, set the speed to one quarter speed. Dash for a while then quickly let go. Notice how quickly Bowser stops; it should be equivalent to how quick a shield appears.



"Bowser's stopping animation is interruptible, by most inputs, on frame 8."



In the VGBootCamp video, Players interrupted Bowser's stop animation with a duck and jab no earlier than a certain frame - likely an IASA frame. "Likely" because I don't know for certain if they buffered those inputs.



The frame rate for the VGBootCamp video and subsequent videos is approximately 30 fps. So, you count by two instead of one if the count of one is the first frame of an action. [Or you count in ones, double the final value and take away one] 30 fps footage adds a degree of uncertainty so the actual frame length lies within a range which is plus or minus what you count to. If you try this with the two videos below, you should find a range between six and eight. I used another method to find out the frame number was eight exactly. Because I've just figured it out, any explanation I give would probably be long winded.

Stopping animation starts at 0:06


Duck starts and interrupts at 0:09

Stopping animation starts at 0:06


Jab starts and interrupts at 0:09



Brawl's Bowser an earliest frame for jabbing and ducking.

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Duck starts and interrupts at 0:18

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Jab starts and interrupts at 0:18



Brawl and SSB4 are similar with respect to the stopping animation here. So, if we use Brawl mechanics, we can guess some mechanics in the demo at least.


From testing, Bowser can interrupt the stopping animation with attack inputs, running, ducking and crawling as early as frame 14. Most inputs that can immediately interrupt dashing can be used on frame 14 and specials can interrupt the stopping animation on any frame. Putting it all together, most inputs can be used by frame 14 or earlier. Furthermore, the frame where a jab, for instance, comes out marks the frame where most actions can begin. For SSB4, this implies most inputs can be executed by frame eight. In other words, the lag for stopping is seven frames max for a full dash.


This means Bowser of SSB4 should be able to do the following on the eighth frame - quicker than shown here.

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Dsmash starts and interrupts at 0:18

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Dash starts and interrupts at 0:18

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Standing grab starts and interrupts at 0:14 [note that he interrupts on frame 10 rather than 14]


You might be interested in the following video. He explains what I've talked about well. If you watch Bowser from 1:04, you should see the 13 frame delay. Setting the speed to X2 is a slight overestimate of the delay in SSB4 - 7 frames. When I look at it, the delay seems almost non-existent. Perhaps I should have made clearer in my previous post how little time seven frames is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: (6/16/14)

Fortress is now multi-hitting before it launches and cannot go off the edge of the stage.

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=4m43s

The new Nair is a multi-hitting attack

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=58s

Short hop klaw approach is still viable

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=6m28s

This here is pretty interesting, Bowser unleashes his foward smash and Marth spot dodges as it comes out and still gets hit, looks like the spotdodge needs to be late in order to work, looks great for frame traps.

http://youtu.be/LxOU9RuoVP8?t=1m55s

Here's a fsmash vs a backroll, it seems like rolls might have a bit more I-frames or the villager was just out of range.

http://youtu.be/CtR6Jx_Dlu8?t=14m47s

Looks like it's easier to perform footstools now, though this may be a universal change.

http://youtu.be/NSZKO_CbD64?t=1m3s

Fair's hitbox is amazing.

http://youtu.be/h3CugGrHnF0?t=1m35s

It looks like Bowser can Dair stall.

http://youtu.be/kzURoGXCFPw?t=1m11s

http://youtu.be/TmfPtW1kDOs?t=43s

Dair's Landing hitbox seems to be larger

http://youtu.be/jSVzk6sktUw?t=1m7s

Dair Spike/Meteor footage.

http://youtu.be/lG0xXAZMcdQ?t=1m57s

Up Tilt's hitbox appears to hit in front of Bowser now.

http://youtu.be/ah3YfvaMvKs?t=3m26s (Note how it connects with the crouching Bowser in front of him. Also includes A Dair Spike/Meteor just before the uptilt.)

Jab cancel strings make a return

http://youtu.be/fZflqX7IuqU?t=59s (Jab 1 to Side b)

Whirling fortress may possibly semi-spike

http://youtu.be/OD_ZnB8yJuA?t=55s (Thanks to SKM_NeoN for pointing it out.)

http://youtu.be/fZflqX7IuqU?t=1m5s (Thanks again to SKM_NeoN for pointing it out.)



Judging by what's shown in this clip, the dropkick seems to be active from the point where the legs are thrust out up, and then remains active until he stops sliding along the ground it seems. You also get a general approximation of how far it can reach and when the late boxes appear. Note how the second Bowser makes contact with Bowser's torso and still gets hit even during the late hit, demonstrating the attack's improved coverage. We also see zero suit recover from the weak hit quickly enough to punish but this may have just been because the Bowser player didn't try to answer with anything.

http://youtu.be/KzyHM8i2Lg4?t=1m57s

Spoiler: (6/28/14)-(7/8/14)

(7/8/14) Watch the brown bowser closely in this clip, if you watch his magnifier you can see that JUST before he hits the blast zone, he begins to recover from Dair. So it may be possible to recover from Dair offstage as long as we are high enough when we start the Dair. It may also be possible that the attack recovers sooner if it connects, allowing a recovery from lower heights with successful spikes, there's no confirmation on that just yet however, it's just a hypothesis.

http://youtu.be/KzyHM8i2Lg4?t=21s

(7/2/14) Here's another interesting piece of footage, Bowser does a down smash, which kirby then falls into. Megaman, sees an opportunity for free damage and fires a crash bomb. The bomb hits Bowser's down smash and explodes instantly, kirby is sent flying, and Bowser appears to finish the down smash animation uninterrupted. You can tell that this is a downsmash, as opposed to a fortress, by the lack of green lights and sparks off the surface of the stage, the fact that the start-up animation is clearly visible even without slowing down the video, in which you can see the white spark on Bowser's shell which is indicative of a down smash. Finally, the axis of his spin while in his shell is at where his tail would be, instead of a central axis.

http://youtu.be/1P3i5vsGvkw?t=2s

Here's Fsmash vs a Samus Usmash from on top of a platform. It looks like he avoids the hitbox when he jumps up then hits her arm while it's raised over her head. While I think this is part of it, if you slow the clip down and look carefully you can see the tale-tale klank bubble appear over Bowser where the hitboxes collide, so it seems like he also won the priority battle.

http://youtu.be/OD_ZnB8yJuA?t=1m12s

(7/3/14) Just a few whiffed standing grabs.

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=6m5s

(7/8/14) Samus Zair whiffing on Bowser's Dash grab whiff for some reason, probably a glitch.

http://youtu.be/9gbPDyaDszs?t=1m6s

Grab release footage, judging by how quickly Bowser managed to spotdodge, it seems like he may still retain frame advantage when the opponent breaks out. Feel free to compare this with the ground break footage on fox in the post right under this one. Samus breaks out into the air, so if she can still only act after the little mid-air turn she does in the release animation the Bowser has advantage. I might move this down with the other released grab footage. We'll see.

http://youtu.be/9gbPDyaDszs?t=1m36s

Spoiler: (7/27/14)-(8/16/14)

(7/27/14) More grab release footage, this is Bowser releasing himself from grab.

Here's Bowser's ground release http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=6m26s


If you slow it down, the Dark green Bowser clearly returns to neutral before the other one. It also seems like the lighter Bowser was mashing jab so while this isn't definative proof, I think it's yet another good argument in favor of Grab release combos still existing.


http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=15m24s Here's the air release. You don't even need to slow this one down, it seems pretty apparent that the darker Bowser was able to move before the lighter one. Still not completely definative maybe, but yet another good bit of evidence pointing in it's favor.



Also here's an interesting look at ledge mechanics, look at when Bowser grabs the ledge here http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=11m14s See how long his invcibility lasted?

Ok, then proceed a bit further and look at this here http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=11m25s

Dark bowser was able to let go of that ledge very quickly but it seemed like the ledge drop canceled out his invincibility, but it could have just been that the game decided to give him fewer frames that time. Also, of course we still get to double jump to the stage and aerial no surprise there.

http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=15m34s Now a little bit after the air release happens, we see, perhaps the only time in the tournament, ledge trumping. This seems to show off it's potential pretty well, we can see that it removes invincibility if you are knocked off, which also supports my earlier theory that releasing the ledge probably dumps the rest of your I-frames, we also see this with the darker Bowser, who uses a ledge jump but none of the ledge I-frames carry over at all. So there's a possibility that invincible attacks from the ledge have been removed.

http://youtu.be/I0s5WrGOlHc?t=1m20s There's a gif of this already, but I figured someone might want to watch the Bowser shield break in slow motion or something, if Bowser still has the strongest shield in the game then it's pretty safe to say that the Bowser bomb will probably break any full shield in one use as long as you land the sweetspot.

And finally, I noticed a few things about Bowser's firebreath, first there's this. http://youtu.be/I0s5WrGOlHc?t=8m24s it's been mentioned before, but here's a nice visual example, of firebreath being used offstage. This is actually very important for Bowser's recovery because he has a far-reaching guard breaking option for backing other characters away from the ledge or at least putting them into hitstun and messing with their timing.

Secondly, It seems like while firebreath does indeed have a larger hitbox, that the outermost tip of the fire, at least when at full size, is actually a push box instead of a hitbox. It appears to work in a similar manner to Mario's down B. http://youtu.be/I0s5WrGOlHc?t=4m6s Notice how once Bowser is in the tip of the fire he just falls down and is pushed away? The same happens here, http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=9m17s and also here http://youtu.be/GAayYDWPkms?t=16m57s not how the darker bowser was moving at a faster speed until moving into the flame tip, where he appears to slow down but does not appear to take any damage.

This isn't Bowser specific but I thought it was pretty interesting, watch Mario and Pikachu. Mario ledgegrabs, then ledge attacks while pikachu attempts to ledge trump him. The result is Mario finishing his ledge attack normally while Pikachu does a ledge grab as normal. I could see some VERY interesting ledge play stemming from this.

http://youtu.be/_V1L3Br2GYk?t=5h36m

(7/28/14) Here's something rather amazing, it appears that Nair can combo into back air. http://youtu.be/Idw0P5x5b14?t=4h31m37s

(8/16/14) http://youtu.be/75k4eXbtbtk?t=1h14m3s Classic forward smash right here, seems like we can still avoid hits with it, nothing new or surprising but nice to have some footage of it anyway.

(9/2/14) http://youtu.be/32lkYHahXck?t=34s I notice that Bowser can act pretty quickly out of his back throw, it seems like he has a bit less downtime afterwards, also up smash beating Link's down air.

http://youtu.be/jlU46WW3TS4?t=2m57s It looks like Bowser's dsmash activates Greninja's substitute, Greninja attempts to counter but the down smash, which was still active, beat the counter. Hazy footage, but it's not hard to see what's happening.

 

[Jerodak]

Footage of instances that are plausible but difficult to confirm outright will go here. Generally this is because it's hard to see what's happening or because there are just too many variables with too little evidence for the footage to be conclusive. If anyone wants to take a close look and confirm or debunk these then be my guest, though the best way to confirm would be with video evidence of a similar event happening with clear footage, just looking at it and saying "I think that looks ok." will not be enough. Similarly if debunking any footage then some form of hard evidence to back your claim would be nice since saying "I think that looks wrong." will also not be enough. If this section turns out to cause problems then i'll just remove it.


Unclear footage

http://youtu.be/2bnI3Sx4Hrc?t=1m3s - Bowser Bomb apparently beating villager's upsmash.

http://youtu.be/NSZKO_CbD64?t=38s - Bowser Bomb apparently beating Fox's up air.


Too many Variables

http://youtu.be/kzURoGXCFPw?t=1m19s - Bowser apparently retains his frame advantage that he gets when someone breaks out of his grab. It's hard to tell if this was Bowser havign advantage or if the Fox player just didn't perform his action as quickly as possible. However, if the footage is slowed and examined carefully it does appear that Fox is still in his release animation when Bowser performs the fortress.

 

[Jerodak]

Because I'm already using the other posts for video clips, I'll use this last one here for posting down some numbers, I'm going to be looking through videos to get some ballpark numbers on the amount of damage that Bowser's attacks are doing, I'm also considering posting the earliest K.O percentages but I might not since there are too many variables for K.O statistics to be of much use at the moment, but at least we can see how much damage he might be doing. I'll probably be able to pull most of this from the moveset demo video.

So for now, i'm just going to post the attack and put the max damage I've seen it do in a video. Also, for some attacks, like Dtilt, I'll be putting down seperate numbers for each hit of the attack. An exception is firebreath, in that case i'll just be posting the amoung of damage each hit is doing.


Jab1: 5%

Jab2: 7% (+ Jab1 = 12%)

Ftilt: 12%

Dtilt: 14% , 11% (25%)

Utilt: 11% (http://youtu.be/ah3YfvaMvKs?t=3m27s) (I've also seen it do 10% http://youtu.be/fZflqX7IuqU?t=21s Might have been because of a late hit.)

Dash attack: 10%

Up smash (First hit): 20%

Up smash (landing):???

Down smash: 3%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 10% (note that even though the damage shows up as "2" the sandbag in the video only takes 1 damage each time, totaling 17% instead of 23%.)

Forward smash: 24%

Fair: 13%

Nair: (It's been pretty hard to find footage of a completed nair but I have two pretty convincing clips here 16% http://youtu.be/OD_ZnB8yJuA?t=1m16s and 21% http://youtu.be/f0rnJeXedJY?t=1m43s)

Bair: 19%

Dair (Falling): 16%

Dair (Landing): 2% (Unlike Down smash, this actually did 2% instead of 1%)

Uair: 15%

Up-B: 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 4% (11%) (This actually showed up as 1% hits, I wonder if something is up with down smash and firebreath then.)

Neutral-B: "2%" (like down smash this only actually did 1%)

Side-B: 19% (http://youtu.be/SKC5KFwEhNM?t=1m34s I love this dude's voice when he lands it. "OH YAAAAH!")

Down-B: 4%, 20% (There's still a sourspot on either side of Bowser but they appear to have much larger range than before; connecting with the sourspot deals 11%)


Hope this helps!

 

[Hokori]

Alright, good start. No one needs to worry about making another thread since we're just going off demo footage and nothing is set in stone just yet. You can just make edits to the original post(s) as you see fit.

Could also bring up the Side-B cancels at around 6:34 in the video, his dash canceling around I believe 1:45, and the aerials that auto-cancel (N-Air, B-Air, F-Air).

And apparently Bowser can't go off the stage anymore with the Whirling Fortress attack.

 

[Jerodak]

Alright, good start. No one needs to worry about making another thread since we're just going off demo footage and nothing is set in stone just yet. You can just make edits to the original post(s) as you see fit.

Could also bring up the Side-B cancels at around 6:34 in the video, his dash canceling around I believe 1:45, and the aerials that auto-cancel (N-Air, B-Air, F-Air).

And apparently Bowser can't go off the stage anymore with the Whirling Fortress attack.

Done and done, as well as a few other tidbits here and there, I'll add more as I find them or remember where they are.

 

[Hokori]

The Bowser Bomb's hitbox is really massive. With the kind of armor it appears to have, its hitbox, and its shield breaking ability, it'll be interesting to see people deal with this move - though it's easy to punish if used in a very predictable manner. People will probably be more hesitant to follow up attacks in the air though. As for the Bowser Bomb demonstration against Fox, I'm not too sure about that one. The one against the Villager's turnips and the thrown Firebar are definitely legit though.

And is it known if Bowser's D-Air spikes during it's entire duration?

 

[ImaClubYou]

Here's my Bowser footage if you're interested though I don't know what you'll get out of it.

Forgive my kinda spamming. 4 hour line for just 2 minutes of gameplay. Mutha ****a's is tryna win, lol.

 

[Jerodak]

Here's my Bowser footage if you're interested though I don't know what you'll get out of it.

Forgive my kinda spamming. 4 hour line for just 2 minutes of gameplay. Mutha ****a's is tryna win, lol.

I want to say that you beat villager upsmash at 1:03 which would be awesome because it's hitbox looks amazing. It does appear that this hitbox did challenge your Bowser bomb but it's similar to the Fox Up air clip largely because its just really hard to see exactly what's going on. However, when I slow it down and look at it very carefully, it does appear, that the upsmash came out right before you connected. I guess I'll add it just so other players can look at it, I might make a new section for cases like these where the idea seems plausible but it's difficult to tell if it's happening or not.

ALthough I may also remove these instances alltogether, I do want to be open minded, but I also don't want this to turn into "The thread of wishful thinking" or something.

Thank you for contributing.

 

[Hokori]

You may want to consider editing the title to "Bowser's Moveset Analysis/Discussion" since it kind of goes together. Probably being a little nitpicky, but it'll be nice to have discussion all in one thread rather than scattered across the Bowser sub-forum.

On another note, I'm still going through videos to see if I can find anything else that hasn't been listed. We've covered a great deal so far though, so it looks like we'll be heading into another phase where we starting breaking down the moves and their utilities based upon the evidence we have so far. Should be pretty fun.

 

[Jerodak]

You may want to consider editing the title to "Bowser's Moveset Analysis/Discussion" since it kind of goes together. Probably being a little nitpicky, but it'll be nice to have discussion all in one thread rather than scattered across the Bowser sub-forum.

On another note, I'm still going through videos to see if I can find anything else that hasn't been listed. We've covered a great deal so far though, so it looks like we'll be heading into another phase where we starting breaking down the moves and their utilities based upon the evidence we have so far. Should be pretty fun.

Done, and yeah that does sound like fun, I'm looking forward to it.

The Bowser Bomb's hitbox is really massive. With the kind of armor it appears to have, its hitbox, and its shield breaking ability, it'll be interesting to see people deal with this move - though it's easy to punish if used in a very predictable manner. People will probably be more hesitant to follow up attacks in the air though. As for the Bowser Bomb demonstration against Fox, I'm not too sure about that one. The one against the Villager's turnips and the thrown Firebar are definitely legit though.

And is it known if Bowser's D-Air spikes during it's entire duration?

Sorry it took so long to get to this, About the Bowser bomb, I think it might be one of Bowser's most important buffs so far,esecially if it's as good as it looks. Players will need to respect it both when below him while he's airborne and when in front of him while he's on the ground. It's still pretty punishable though we'll still need to be careful with it.

As for your question on Dair, I'm not too sure on that one, I think that I've seen some footage where it did and some where it didn't. I can double check on that to be sure but It seems like it should meteor at least through most of the duration. I'll find various instances of it happening and post it up so we can better determine when it's able to spike or not.

 

[ibmutt]

Bowser can Dash Cancel


http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=1m35s

Introduction


I thought you would be interested in what I found out.


Main Points



Bowser's stopping animation - not his dash animation - was interrupted by either his pivot animation or certain animations - jabbing or ducking. His stopping animation starts when you release the analogue stick or point it up or down. Bowser's stopping animation is interruptible, by most inputs, on frame 8. Bowser's stopping animation in Brawl was interruptible by most inputs as early as frame 14; the demo Bowser has a 43% decrease in stopping lag compared to Brawl.


Analysis


The main point is Bowser can interrupt his stopping animation on a frame eight. You can interrupt his stopping animation sooner for some attacks so seven frames is the maximum amount lag. In other words, assuming you've already started a dash you have a maximum commitment of seven frames.


Bowser can likely interrupt stopping with dashing on frame 8. For changing direction, this is faster than cancelling a dash with a shield in Brawl. I think shielding has a minimum of thirteen frames before it can be interrupted. In Brawl, the buffering window for reverse dashes is very tight. I'm not sure how the movement option compares with melee.



Explanation


"Bowser's stopping animation - not his dash animation - was interrupted by either his pivot animation or certain animations. "




In the video at least, ducking or jabbing never interrupted his dashing animation only his stopping animation. Play it frame by frame to see for yourself. I'll leave pivoting for another time or person.



"His stopping animation starts when you release the analogue stick or point it up or down."



To get a feel for this in Brawl, set the speed to one quarter speed. Dash for a while then quickly let go. Notice how quickly Bowser stops; it should be equivalent to how quick a shield appears.



"Bowser's stopping animation is interruptible, by most inputs, on frame 8."



In the VGBootCamp video, Players interrupted Bowser's stop animation with a duck and jab no earlier than a certain frame - likely an IASA frame. "Likely" because I don't know for certain if they buffered those inputs.



The frame rate for the VGBootCamp video and subsequent videos is approximately 30 fps. So, you count by two instead of one if the count of one is the first frame of an action. [Or you count in ones, double the final value and take away one] 30 fps footage adds a degree of uncertainty so the actual frame length lies within a range which is plus or minus what you count to. If you try this with the two videos below, you should find a range between six and eight. I used another method to find out the frame number was eight exactly. Because I've just figured it out, any explanation I give would probably be long winded.

Stopping animation starts at 0:06


Duck starts and interrupts at 0:09

Stopping animation starts at 0:06


Jab starts and interrupts at 0:09



Brawl's Bowser an earliest frame for jabbing and ducking.

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Duck starts and interrupts at 0:18

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Jab starts and interrupts at 0:18



Brawl and SSB4 are similar with respect to the stopping animation here. So, if we use Brawl mechanics, we can guess some mechanics in the demo at least.


From testing, Bowser can interrupt the stopping animation with attack inputs, running, ducking and crawling as early as frame 14. Most inputs that can immediately interrupt dashing can be used on frame 14 and specials can interrupt the stopping animation on any frame. Putting it all together, most inputs can be used by frame 14 or earlier. Furthermore, the frame where a jab, for instance, comes out marks the frame where most actions can begin. For SSB4, this implies most inputs can be executed by frame eight. In other words, the lag for stopping is seven frames max for a full dash.


This means Bowser of SSB4 should be able to do the following on the eighth frame - quicker than shown here.

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Dsmash starts and interrupts at 0:18

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Dash starts and interrupts at 0:18

Stopping animation starts at 0:05


Standing grab starts and interrupts at 0:14 [note that he interrupts on frame 10 rather than 14]

 

[Hokori]

@ I ibmutt I appreciate the time you put into your analysis, that was really helpful and it was about time we had someone else post in here

You made things pretty clear, especially with the video evidence to support your argument since I can clearly see the stopping animation being interrupted.

Thanks a lot!

Now to go and look at the most recent videos @ J Jerodak put up..haven't noticed since I haven't gotten any notifications on this thread in awhile.

Hm, in the footage, that D-Air was out for a decent amount of time (referring to the video on the Boxing Ring where he struck Marth and Little Mac as he was being launched from Megaman's attack) but it still retained the spike/meteor effect. If there's any evidence of D-Air being out any longer than that, then that's what we need to see.

And in the possible frame advantage grab release video, I noticed that when Bowser was pummeling, the damage output was 3%, 3%, 2%, then back to %3. I guess I've never really been paying attention to it before, but has the damage output always been funky in that way?

 

[ibmutt]

@ Hokori
I'm glad to help. I could look into Dair. Atm, I'm investigating his Fair. According to ssbwiki, Bowser's pummel is simply 3% in Brawl and Melee.

You might be interested in the following video. He explains what I've talked about well. If you watch Bowser from 1:04, you should see the 13 frame delay. Setting the speed to X2 is a slight overestimate of the delay in SSB4 - 7 frames. When I look at it, the delay seems almost non-existent. Perhaps I should have made clearer in my previous post how little time seven frames is.

 

[Hokori]

@ Hokori
I'm glad to help. I could look into Dair. Atm, I'm investigating his Fair. According to ssbwiki, Bowser's pummel is simply 3% in Brawl and Melee.

You might be interested in the following video. He explains what I've talked about well. If you watch Bowser from 1:04, you should see the 13 frame delay. Setting the speed to X2 is a slight overestimate of the delay in SSB4 - 7 frames. When I look at it, the delay seems almost non-existent. Perhaps I should have made clearer in my previous post how little time seven frames is.

Ah yeah, I used to fool around with those IASA frames with Ness in Brawl with his F-Smash. Makes sense. Well now we're aware that we're canceling the dash-stopping animation rather than the dash itself.

And yeah, I knew that Bowser's pummel did 3%, I was just confused to see the sudden drop to 2% on the third pummel, then back up to 3% on the fourth. Trippy

 

[ImaClubYou]

IIRC, percentages round up or down.

Essentially, 3% can be 3.4% or 3.8%. Not exactly in this way but it is similar.

 

[Jerodak]

...

Hey guys, I'm currently in California at the moment. I'm going to be pretty busy while I'm here so this may be the only post I will make for a while. Thanks for all of your contributions while I'm away; catch you later!

 

[ImaClubYou]

This just in: In one of GameXplain's videos, Bowser's Down B killed Fox at 43% off the top in the COLISEUM.

 

[Hokori]

This just in: In one of GameXplain's videos, Bowser's Down B killed Fox at 43% off the top in the COLISEUM.

No way...link link link link link!

Lol Bowser is gonna get a nerf in power I feel it.

 

[ImaClubYou]

No way...link link link link link!

Lol Bowser is gonna get a nerf in power I feel it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHE5-jEGQgY

Here at 0:22

Sorry, I was plunged into a big dark endless void of media dubbed MLGSmash.

Needa catch up on subscriptions, lol.

 

[dskank]

not sure if anyone already posted this, but it looks like bowser can cancel his grounded fortress into smash attacks

in this video he fsmashes out of fortress at 1:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7XotZQyWr0

 

[Hokori]

not sure if anyone already posted this, but it looks like bowser can cancel his grounded fortress into smash attacks

in this video he fsmashes out of fortress at 1:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7XotZQyWr0

Wut. That looks nuts. If SDI continues to be absent in the final product, maybe at low percent Whirling Fortress can combo into U-Smash...but maybe he can only cancel grounded Whirling Fortress during the startup..hmm, there are many possibilities and this is why I want to get my hands on the game already so I can see things for myself.

 

[B!squick]

The more I see of Bowser, the more sure I am that I will be the bane of all my friends. I can realistically edge guard with a series of Bairs instead of one well timed one. Dair's applicability was dialed up to 11. Nair finally seems to do what a Nair should. Suddenly Bower's air game isn't balls. And that shield break from DownB on Yoshi in that one 3DS vid...

Gentlemen. Bowser may finally be viable. In fact, the whole game looked really balanced from what I've seen so far. If anything, it seemed like that newcomers were under powered compared to the vets. Wii Fit Trainer seemed especially unimpressive and I had her pegged as being the Meta Knight of the game. Well played, Nintendo/Capcom.

 

[Hokori]

The more I see of Bowser, the more sure I am that I will be the bane of all my friends. I can realistically edge guard with a series of Bairs instead of one well timed one. Dair's applicability was dialed up to 11. Nair finally seems to do what a Nair should. Suddenly Bower's air game isn't balls. And that shield break from DownB on Yoshi in that one 3DS vid...

Gentlemen. Bowser may finally be viable. In fact, the whole game looked really balanced from what I've seen so far. If anything, it seemed like that newcomers were under powered compared to the vets. Wii Fit Trainer seemed especially unimpressive and I had her pegged as being the Meta Knight of the game. Well played, Nintendo/Capcom.

Indeed. And the funny thing is that when each newcomer was revealed, people questioned if they were OP or not. Granted, it was just a demo, it was nice to see how some of the veterans were looking.

And I don't have any doubts regarding Bowser's viability. We'll see how things go after the metagame has a chance to develop, but I'm still confident in his potential. Bowser received a crap-ton of changes/tweaks that have all been in his favor for the most part.

 

[Vysetron]

Indeed. And the funny thing is that when each newcomer was revealed, people questioned if they were OP or not. Granted, it was just a demo, it was nice to see how some of the veterans were looking.

And I don't have any doubts regarding Bowser's viability. We'll see how things go after the metagame has a chance to develop, but I'm still confident in his potential. Bowser received a crap-ton of changes/teaks that have all been in his favor for the most part.

Everything this man said is truth. Bowser wasn't the most ridiculous of the vets in the demo, but he was definitely the most improved and arguably most changed overall. Considering that some people were/are able to make disgusting things happen with him in the older games despite his issues I am genuinely excited for new Bowz. Viability isn't even a concern to me at this point, and you have no idea how happy it makes me to say that.

 

[Hokori]

Everything this man said is truth. Bowser wasn't the most ridiculous of the vets in the demo, but he was definitely the most improved and arguably most changed overall. Considering that some people were/are able to make disgusting things happen with him in the older games despite his issues I am genuinely excited for new Bowz. Viability isn't even a concern to me at this point, and you have no idea how happy it makes me to say that.

Precisely. He'll have a brand new feel to him so I'm dying to play so I can lab it up and see how things go. It's already evident that Whirling Fortress has been buffed for both recovery and attacking purposes and the same can be said for all of his other specials. He has some auto-cancelable aerials that can serve well for spacing (retreating F-Air, walling with the B-Air) and a new approach option in Reverse Aerial Rushed B-Air. Although I did like Bowser's old N-Air, I'm also a fan of this one as it's multi-hit and the hitbox for it is pretty large. And of course the new properties for his D-Air are nice...haven't seen much of U-Air but I'll probably look around for more videos. On the ground he also has some buffs. With new buffed aerials come new out-of-shield options, he's quicker and fooling around with pivot-tilts/jabs/smashes should also be fun. And I believe that we discussed that his grab has been buffed as well? Oh yeah, definitely excited

 

[Jerodak]

not sure if anyone already posted this, but it looks like bowser can cancel his grounded fortress into smash attacks

in this video he fsmashes out of fortress at 1:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7XotZQyWr0

This would be really cool but if you slow it down you see that it's actually just a pivot Fsmash. Because of the new Fsmahs wind up animation, where he squats back pretty low to the ground, in tandem with him turning around, it just looks like a fortress but it is actually just a pivot fsmash. It sure looks like a fortress at fulls speed though, maybe we could get some mind games out of that.

By the way, I'm back. Just got home actually. Came in to catch up on what I missed before getting some sleep. I'll be more active now that I have constant internet access though.

 

[Hokori]

This would be really cool but if you slow it down you see that it's actually just a pivot Fsmash. Because of the new Fsmahs wind up animation, where he squats back pretty low to the ground, in tandem with him turning around, it just looks like a fortress but it is actually just a pivot fsmash. It sure looks like a fortress at fulls speed though, maybe we could get some mind games out of that.

By the way, I'm back. Just got home actually. Came in to catch up on what I missed before getting some sleep. I'll be more active now that I have constant internet access though.

Ah, well that was debunked quickly.

Glad to have you back though. There's plenty to discuss to get things rolling around here.

 

[Jerodak]

Ah, well that was debunked quickly.

Glad to have you back though. There's plenty to discuss to get things rolling around here.

Yeah it's good to be back too, especially to see that this thread got some activity while I was away. I actually have a few more questions about Dair myself like how quickly it recovers and so on, the fact that it spikes is neat but could we use that offstage? If we try and miss is it basically like toon link where it's a sure SD or more like Game and Watch where we go pretty far down but still get to recover? Also if we spike someone while onstage then land into them do we recover in time to follow up or at least be neutral?

 

[Hokori]

Yeah it's good to be back too, especially to see that this thread got some activity while I was away. I actually have a few more questions about Dair myself like how quickly it recovers and so on, the fact that it spikes is neat but could we use that offstage? If we try and miss is it basically like toon link where it's a sure SD or more like Game and Watch where we go pretty far down but still get to recover? Also if we spike someone while onstage then land into them do we recover in time to follow up or at least be neutral?

Those are the same type of questions I have for D-Air as well. Unfortunately, we don't have anything (haven't found anything anyway) to help up lean one way or another.

But based off of what I've seen so far, the only application I see for it offstage would be for suicidal spikes for when it would be in your benefit. Due to how quickly he plummets towards the ground with the move and with how his recovery is, unless you're pretty high in the air, I couldn't imagine a survival possibility like with G&W. And It's not like Bowser pops up off the opponent after landing the hit either.

As for follow-up potential, I don't think I see that either unless they ease up on the cooldown at least a little.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Yeah, Dair seems completely useless as it is now in my opinion. At this point it's only good for style points, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but these moves never help a tier list.

I don't remember, but I seem to slightly recall dair having a hitbox on landing as well. Kind of like Pikachu's but stronger.

EDIT: Since my Bowser in doubles thread is dead, I'll repost my thoughts here. Note that some of my opinions may have changed over time.

I haven't done any other research on the other characters. I literally only played Bowser the whole time.

He seems like a good teams partner from general speculation and gameplay.

FIRE BREATH

As of now, his fire breaths range is gigantic, it can potentially be one of the best partner saving moves in the game and with the new mechanics of ledge hogging and the fact that Bowsers fire starts fast AND ends fast, it will be no longer be a problem to get back on stage safely adding his buffed recovery. Fire is also great defensively in teams, while your partner is on the offensive, you can stand back and spit some fire at the other opposing player. It also serves as a pseudo stage hazard for your opponent while your teammate takes a traditional edge guard.

Overall, Bowser's fire breath looks like a great move in singles or doubles. It covers half of Battlefield and can reach above platforms as well.

GRAB SETUPS

Grab setups. Obviously, no one has time to practice spacing so precisely at this time. Bowser, seems
to have the strongest attacks at the moment that doesn't involve charging. Forward Smash from a grab setup may be possible and with how powerful horizontal kills seem to be, he may possibly be what Fox was in Melee, except sideways.

However, when Bowser grabs opponents themselves it doesn't look like your teammate can do these setups. Bowsers claw goes past the opponent he grabs and looks as if it counts as a hurtbox. This isn't confirmed, but it may be detrimental to Bowser grab setups.

BOWSER BOMB

If you watched the Smash portion of Treehouse Live, you definitely remember when Bowser broke Yoshi's FULL HEALTHY SHIELD with the sweetspot of the Bowser Bomb. Throwing this in doubles unexpectedly will instantly turn the tide in battle. You can strategize whether or not to attack the stunned player with a finisher or team combo or leave him to 2v1 the other player. Not to mention the move got incredibly buffed from the last 2 games, killing at around 80%(post alpha).

It's also still able to grab ledges. I have no idea how this works if a character grabs a ledge befoehand, but if it hits that's a plus, right?

JAB/FTILT

These moves come out pretty fast and they seem to have the range of Melee Marth. You can imagine the pressure you can implement just by having a presence 2-3 character spaces away from your opponent. Ftilt also links seamlessly with jab almost looking like it's part of the move.

OFFENSIVE PRESSURE

Bowser is definitely a finisher. Half is move set is a kill move. When paired with combo heavy characters like say: Mario, Greninja, WFT, ZSS, Bowser's heavy hits may be able to kill at %'s where others can't.

DEFENSIVE OPTIONS

Bowser's long range fire, Up B out of shield is now multi hit and apparently pseudo spike, Bowser's grabs send you far(though this is apparent for everyone), mid range attacks rivaling Melee Marth, confirmed armor on some moves, and just a scary presence!

Bowser looks to be a great doubles partner! When paired with someone fast hitting and combo orientated, the odds look almost insurmountable! He can switch from offense, to defense, to support at any time!

However, it doesn't seem like double Bowser looks like a good idea, or even double big characters even like DK. Bowser just looks to be most effective with quick characters. Just a funny feeling, it doesn't mean I won't enjoy some Bowser team ditto's though!

Any thoughts? This topic should not be limited to just doubles.

We can discuss any and all possible tactics we can come up with for Bowser here!

 

[Hokori]

Yeah, Dair seems completely useless as it is now in my opinion. At this point it's only good for style points, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but these moves never help a tier list.

I don't remember, but I seem to slightly recall dair having a hitbox on landing as well. Kind of like Pikachu's but stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSVzk6sktUw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m7s

But yeah, pretty much. We'll see how it turns out though. At least the other aerials are pretty useful.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, Dair seems completely useless as it is now in my opinion. At this point it's only good for style points, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but these moves never help a tier list.

I don't remember, but I seem to slightly recall dair having a hitbox on landing as well. Kind of like Pikachu's but stronger.

Well, looking at it, I wouldn't say outright that it was completely useless, Dair stall gives Bowser increased vertical survivability. Also, we don't know how good the priority is on the bowser bomb, there may still be certain aerials that will win against it but can be dealt with using the start-up animation for Dair. Dair appears to be faster than bowser bomb, and is less laggy on landing so it's more useful as a quick way to reach the ground outside of fast falling. Not sure if anyone noticed this, but you can D.I during Bowser's Dair, something that Bowser bomb does not appear to be capable of doing. Combined with the fact that Bowser is quite small, in comparison to his full size, when tucked into his shell, this may be useful for escaping juggles. It may turn out that there are better options in most of these situations or maybe none of this stuff is as good as it sounds.

I agree that it won't be an amazing aerial, but I also don't see it being as hard to use as the current version, on that note, I think we may want to look further into Dair since it seems to have piqued a lot of curiosity maybe some more general footage that we can pick apart, also Dair in specific situations like against someone on a ledge or hitting a shield.

@ I ibmutt Any more slowed down footage that you're willing to provide will be greatly appreciated, I'll go ahead and add your contributions to the OP

 

[Hokori]

Another thing I noticed that I never payed much attention to was Bowser's U-Air. Seems like the startup time is a bit less compares to his previous iterations.

 

[Jerodak]

Another thing I noticed that I never payed much attention to was Bowser's U-Air. Seems like the startup time is a bit less compares to his previous iterations.

Yeah, it's quite fast now, I don't think it's short-hoppable though but it'll at least have some more utility than previous versions, along with all his other aerials perhaps with the exception of Dair, not sure about that one just yet but i'm sure we'll find some use for it.

 

[Hokori]

Yeah, it's quite fast now, I don't think it's short-hoppable though but it'll at least have some more utility than previous versions, along with all his other aerials perhaps with the exception of Dair, not sure about that one just yet but i'm sure we'll find some use for it.

I think it was already confirmed that U-Air can't be auto-canceled, but if landing lag gets cut down a bit more than that'll be a nice improvement.

What do you think of N-Airs potential?

 

[Jerodak]

What do you think of N-Airs potential?

The larger hitbox and multi hits will probably end up being pretty useful, I imagine it'll have some similar uses to Nair in previous versions, although to greater effect thanks to it's buffs. Bowser's aerial traps will probably be stronger but that also depends on how the increased speed of airdodge will come into play. If the priority is at least as good as it was in Brawl then it might be useful as an edgeguard or as a way to deal with tricky projectiles while approaching. Speaking of edgeguarding, I think a popular strategy with Bowser may be ledge-trump to ledge drop DJ Nair to tack on damage, perhaps mixed in with Bair and Up air for kills if those would work in that situation, I don't see why they wouldn't. It looks like Bowser can fast-fall it to end it early for air-to ground strings so he actually has a viable approach now to start up his boxing game which also appears to have been improved although I'm betting that the fast-fall nair into ground attacks may end up being character specific if it's as useful as it sounds. Overall, Nair looks like a nice option with some decent utility that's good for both defense and offense.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Nair looks like a good offensive OoS option to start combo's assuming the attack sends you in an upward angle in front of Bowser and assuming we decrease landing lag.

Anyone think about the Bowser Bomb during ledge trumping? Bowser Bomb still grabs the ledge.

 

[Hokori]

Bowser's aerial traps will probably be stronger but that also depends on how the increased speed of airdodge will come into play.

Definitely. The N-Air would make for great frame traps. Even with the increased speed of air-dodge, if the opponent air-dodges into the stage, that's another opportunity for punish. At least that's a possibility for now.

Speaking of edgeguarding, I think a popular strategy with Bowser may be ledge-trump to ledge drop DJ Nair to tack on damage, perhaps mixed in with Bair and Up air for kills if those would work in that situation, I don't see why they wouldn't. It looks like Bowser can fast-fall it to end it early for air-to ground strings so he actually has a viable approach now to start up his boxing game which also appears to have been improved although I'm betting that the fast-fall nair into ground attacks may end up being character specific if it's as useful as it sounds.

Agree with this point as well. I can imagine Bowser players having more fun handling off-stage opponents this game compared to others with the aerial/special buffs.

I'm also wondering how much hit-stun/shield-stun the move may have. Maybe weak N-Air landing hits could follow up into tilts, grab, Flying slam?

EDIT - @ ImaClubYou Yup, I brought up that Bowser's OOS game would be better in this game with the buffs in the aerial department.

As for ledge trumping with Bowser Bomb, it never came to my mind actually.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Bowser's edge drop, fast fall, DJ, nair on stage sounds stylish af, haha

 

[Jerodak]

It does, and if it's at least as fast as the Brawl version then it might be invincible at least at least on the first few active frames, assuming we still get to keep our ledge invulnerability when we release the ledge at the right time. That along with return b-reverse flame will probably be some pretty strong edgeguard tech, especially since SDI is a lot harder to do in this game. I could also see something like ledge trumping then just walk off into Bair if they ledge grab. Or we could just Bowser bomb to the ledge from there, with it's improved priority it would probably cover a lot of options if they try to make it back onstage or to the ledge, judging by what we've seen in the showcase when Nate explained the new ledge mechanics It seems like if you try to regrab after being trumped that you will not get invincible frames, so if they do grab the ledge and we bomb them then they get hit off. I guess if you missed and they aimed for the actual stage instead, you may be able to just do a quick ledge drop DJ fair, if you get to keep your ledge invincibility when you ledge drop early enough then this sounds like a pretty good ledgeplay bnb for Bowser.