Bowser vs Shields: Patch 1.11

[pitfall356]

The main kicker of this patch was the change they made to shields. Because of this patch, Bombs are now almost guaranteed to break a shield without fear of the opponent dropping or rolling after the first falling hit! That's great news, as we could always use a little more consistency.

That said, what else does this patch bring to the table for the King? Do we have any fancy strings we can use on shields to break them super fast? What attacks do we have that deal the most damage to shields (aside from bomb lmao)?

I've seen some pretty neat tricks pop up fast after the patch dropped, so I wanted to know if anyone here has found anything big that Bowser players should be looking for; anything to keep an eye out for so we an seize opportunity (and all of those sweet sweet stocks).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've actually been wanting to make a thread like this. Using this source for pre-patch and the formula provided in this thread, here are the new shieldstun numbers on Bowser's moves. For Nair and Fire Shot (Neutral 2) I put shieldstun numbers in accordance to how much damage they dealt pre and post patch. Also note that with shieldlag equalized between attacker and defender on hitlag modified moves, Our Dash slash is about 3 more frames safer on shield post-patch, in addition to the shieldstun increase. And now projectiles do have their hitlag modifiers in effect for shields, which makes Fire Roar (0.5 hitlag) deal I THINK 3 and 2 frames of shieldlag instead of 5, making it less safe on shields despite the shieldstun increase. Slip Bomb's ground trip hitbox also has 0.0 hitlag, thus probably deals no shieldlag post patch, but I'm also not sure if that hit is calculated as a projectile hit or not)

Jab 1: 2 > 4
Jab 2: 3 > 5
Ftilt: 5 > 8
Dtilt 1: 6 >10
Dtilt 2: 5 > 8
Utilt: 4 > 7
Dash Attack (early 10% hit): 4 > 7
Dash Attack (late 8% hit) 3 > 6
Fsmash (strong 24% hit) 9 > 15
Fsmash (late 17% hit) 6 > 11
Usmash (strong 20% hit) 8 > 13
Usmash (weak 15% hit) 6 > 10
Usmash (landing 6% hit) 3 > 5
Dsmash (initial 2% and 1% multihits) 1 > 3/2
Dsmash (final 9% hit) 4 > 7
Nair (individual 5/6% hits) 2 > 5
Nair (two limbs colliding on the same frame for 10/12%) 4 > 8
Fair (strong 13% hit) 6 > 9
Fair (weak 11 or 12% hit) 5 > 8
Bair: 8 > 12
Uair: 6 > 10
Dair (falling 16% hit) 7 > 11
Dair (landing 2% hit) 1 > 3
Fire Breath (1.2% non-windbox hit) 1 > 2
Fire Shot (5/6% early hit) 2 > 3
Fire Shot (4/5% late hit) 1 > 3
Fire Roar (2.7% hit) 1 > 2
Fire Roar(1.8% hit) 1 > 2
Dash Slash (early 8% hit) 3 > 6
Dash Slash (late 6% hit) 2 > 5
Whirling Fortress (ground 1% multihit) 1 > 2
Whirling Fortress (ground 4% final hit) 2 > 4
Whirling Fortress (air initial 10% hit) 3 > 7
Whirling Fortress (air 3% multihit) 1 > 3
Whirling Fortress (air 3% multihit) 1 > 2
Sliding Fortress: 2 > 5
Bowser Bomb (4% rising hit) 2 > 4
Bowser Bomb (20% falling hit) 7 > 13
Bowser Bomb (11% landing hit) 4 > 8
Turbulent Bomb (5% rising hit) 2 > 4
Turbulent Bomb (9% falling hit) 4 > 7
Slip Bomb (18% falling hit) 7 > 12
Slip Bomb (13% landing hit) 6 > 9
Slip Bomb (2% trip hitbox) 1 > 2

Edit: Fixed shieldstun numbers for Neutral Bs, which are projectiles (different formula). I also fixed a lot of my pre-patch numbers.

The real heroicly changed move is our Dtilt. The time between swipe 1 and 2 is 10 frames, and now Dtilt 1 deals 10 shieldstun. Thus making Dtilts two swipes a true blockstring. This is of course assuming Dtilt 1 doesn't push the target far enough that the second swipe doesn't reach. Dtilt was always fantastically safe on block, and now it's more so. I'm also optimistic about short hop Fair and Bair, since both could menace the opponent's shield health when spaced well.

 

[Big Sean]

Hmmm Interesting numbers. Just looking at the list makes me think that dash slash -> dtilt might be a true block string that probably brings their shield to near 0 if not breaks it.

 

[Jerodak]

Big Sean unfortunately it seems dash slash would only be +0 or at best, assuming you space it perfectly so it h its right before you land, then you should take hard landing lag because you auto canceled. Landing is frame 6, 6 frames of stun, so +0 unless I missed something.

Regardless, that's still really good, considering the slide back from wave slash. If you catch someone off guard it might still work.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

fair is still awful on shields.

rip

 

[x45x]

fair is still awful on shields.

rip

I mean it was almost safe before on a partial or full fade where you fastfall the end lag. Now You cant get away with murder doing that. Also if you premature fastfall a fair full fading its hard to punish, like Greninja nair on full fade pre patch. Not actually safe but hard to punish. Thats what I have experienced. Its not like, Marth fair melee status, which I wish it was =D.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I get punished for it all the time on whiff and on block. I guess I must be **** at spacing it.

 

[x45x]

I get punished for it all the time on whiff and on block. I guess I must be **** at spacing it.

Its the fade. I use c stick tilts (so my air movement is not adjusted, smash stick does that). I also claw the controller so i can jump and do stuff instantly. Essentially if you short hop fair (first frame, with the buffer thats not too bad) and you do it partially fading back on the startup or going straight up neutral, its almost safe. Then you must continue to fade and when you hit the ground your sorta kinda safe (you will jab a million people out of an approach if they are greedy). Now just after fair, maybe 5-7 frames (rough number im estimating based on visual) you can fast fall the move and auto cancel (check the auto cancel frames, i dont know them off the top of my head). What this allows you to do is be very close to the +-0 frame on block world, and allows Bowser to do some nasty shield pressure. You can do the exact same with back air, bair air is a bit more safe especially post patch, but harder to land and the fade needs to be a bit fierce. I have gotten away with partial fade backs on it now because it's a metric ton of shield stun, but thats how i make them safe.

What i really like about this is that it will make people respect your jump in. If you get it right you can max range it and fast fall the lag and be almost completely safe, which is scary to have a bowser that close to you. But what it also does is allow for the side b jump in mixup. Because side b auto cancels all day every day with almost no lag, you can really mess with people on jump in, making blocking scarier for them. And while you cant fastfall side B (that would be SUPER BROKEN) you can fast fall just before the input, to add to the mixup options on approach. Once you have established the horrors of jump ins, nair with its new end lag reduction and silly combo ability, allows you to mess em up and get a combo or at least a silly setup that can mess their day up. Nair being occasionally hard to punish based on limbs, multi hits, fast falls, shield stun, etc, the mixup is totally worth it. all because of fair being good on block. But its sortof hard to do all the time. I literally practice it in training mode every day i practice.

 

[Big Sean]

Its the fade. I use c stick tilts (so my air movement is not adjusted, smash stick does that). I also claw the controller so i can jump and do stuff instantly. Essentially if you short hop fair (first frame, with the buffer thats not too bad) and you do it partially fading back on the startup or going straight up neutral, its almost safe. Then you must continue to fade and when you hit the ground your sorta kinda safe (you will jab a million people out of an approach if they are greedy). Now just after fair, maybe 5-7 frames (rough number im estimating based on visual) you can fast fall the move and auto cancel (check the auto cancel frames, i dont know them off the top of my head). What this allows you to do is be very close to the +-0 frame on block world, and allows Bowser to do some nasty shield pressure. You can do the exact same with back air, bair air is a bit more safe especially post patch, but harder to land and the fade needs to be a bit fierce. I have gotten away with partial fade backs on it now because it's a metric ton of shield stun, but thats how i make them safe.

What i really like about this is that it will make people respect your jump in. If you get it right you can max range it and fast fall the lag and be almost completely safe, which is scary to have a bowser that close to you. But what it also does is allow for the side b jump in mixup. Because side b auto cancels all day every day with almost no lag, you can really mess with people on jump in, making blocking scarier for them. And while you cant fastfall side B (that would be SUPER BROKEN) you can fast fall just before the input, to add to the mixup options on approach. Once you have established the horrors of jump ins, nair with its new end lag reduction and silly combo ability, allows you to mess em up and get a combo or at least a silly setup that can mess their day up. Nair being occasionally hard to punish based on limbs, multi hits, fast falls, shield stun, etc, the mixup is totally worth it. all because of fair being good on block. But its sortof hard to do all the time. I literally practice it in training mode every day i practice.

I'd like to see a video of this. I was trying to incorporate this into my game but i'm not quite sure I was doing it right.

 

[x45x]

I'd like to see a video of this. I was trying to incorporate this into my game but i'm not quite sure I was doing it right.

Hey i will totally do a video but it may be super duper camera phone. Iphone so like not the worst but like camera phone. I wish i owned a good capture card but ill go through all my Bowser stuff. Im writing a guide right now, its wip but i should include some video for reference. I have a video called Bowser is Bad, where i may do it? i generally do it in my matches.

Bowser is bad 1
Bowser is bad 2

So i lied i dont do it in either but i do a lot of positioning stuff thats useful. But i do however perform a few full hop variants with the fast fall. I will get a video for you guys, maybe by tonight ill post it here and the video archive.

 

[Zethoro]

Can most certainly say that DTilt is wonderful against shields at this point. It eats shields for breakfast and does tons of shield stun, often leading the opponent to mess up their inputs and do a roll, or cause them to panic. If you catch someone shielding at the edge with a well spaced DTilt, fortress (or bomb if you're feeling crazy) is a great option after. Fortress punishes rolls and is safer than most options, but bomb can punish jumps, break shields, and punish a roll if timed properly around the roll.
It's pretty nice. I'm trying to incorporate it into my ledgegame.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Can most certainly say that DTilt is wonderful against shields at this point.

It is. One possibility with the old shieldstun numbers is that the opponent could Spotdodge after swipe 1 to avoid swipe 2 and get a good punish on Bowser. Now this is no longer the case. This certainly wasn't a common occurance, but having the possibility removed gives us one less thing to worry about in highly technical play.

Dtilt's two hits and heavy pushback make the prospect of getting shield grabbed unlikely to almost impossible. The move spaces itself. But watch out for the opponents with tether grabs. Their range can nail us before we can even pull up shield, not that that would help. But we're still somewhere around -10 advantage after shield drop, assuming they're not pushed out of range from swipe 2. This is good for such a heavy move, but still leaves us considerably open to shield drop > dash grab.