bowser vs game&watch: help me a bit.

[choknater]

i'm having some issues with this. i hope you guys don't disregard this matchup as worthless... we have lots of low-tier tournaments here and i have a hard time with this matchup.

in an organized fashion, here are some issues i'm having:

1. every single one of GW's moves (save up-B) has a disjointed hitbox. this makes him very difficult to space, what with bowser's poor dash and semi-slow WD. he can outprioritize most of my approach stoppers, especially ftilt. he can cut through my shield safely because of his long range fair/dtilt, reminiscent of marth. bowser's small shield doesn't help much either. i could light shield i guess, but i'm not that good at it and even if i do so i can't really shield grab.

2. how the F*** do i get past his dtilt and fair. like i said, too much range.

3. how do i edgeguard him? there are cases where he knocks me back up when i try to fortress edge guard.. should i just stick with <100% ledge attack and ftilts? it's difficult to make these choices because his vertical recovery is so weird and it's hard to hit him accurately on his way up.

4. i find it hard to make situational decisions when he's at high %... recommend me which is better: killing him vertically (uair, u/dsmash, utilt) or horizontally (fair, ftilt, klaw bthrow)??

5. stage counter picks? i know yoshi story is great for bowser and battlefield sucks for game and watch... any more suggestions or discrepancies?

6. what do i do when my shield is low. i can only shield grab and shield fortress so much.. when my shield gets whittled down, gaw's neutral A, dtilt, and aerials penetrate me. especially that extra hit with the dair when the key's in the ground. i'm pretty decent at wavelanding and moving around with fortress, but he always seems to have a legit approach against me.

that's about it... it just seems to me that GaW has the advantage here, and i can't get over it. if that's not the case... then hopefully you bowser enthusiasts can help me out.

 

[AnubisGX]

I think the key is, when you shield grab or fortress him, you have to keep the pressure on.
Watch his techs. And after a fortress, he'll most likely use the key to protect himself coming down, keep that in mind. And save your shield fortress for around 80-90%, gaw should die from it, I think, depending on the stage.
Bowser obviously hits hard, and game and watch is light, you should knock him around pretty good.
And when edge guarding a gaw, if he's not good at sweetspotting with gaw, just stand a good distance from the edge and ftilt or dtilt him. Then when you knock him away, just edgehog.
Just remember, if the gaw is not good at sweetspotting, you better not let him grab that ledge.
I don't play bowser, I play GaW. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Palafrak the valiant]

Although this response will ultimately result in my GW losing to your boozer, here's some tips:

Bowser's ground Up-B attack is easily maneuverable (sp?), and when a Game and Watch approaches, whether by wavedash dtilt or f-air, the Up-B can go backwards and hit the GW on the recoil.

Also, you can crouch the f-air and stop it with a dtilt, which will knock the GW back. Most of the time, when you crouch the f-air suddenly, the hitbox on GW's f-tilt won't sweetspot, and it will just be a light tap -- this error can be devastating to the Game and Watch player.

If at all possible, avoid getting grabbed. The most obvious way to do this is to either roll dodge or use Bowser's B, and if you roll dodge toward the GW, you can roll behind them and use the Down-B or D-smash.

In deciding whether to kill vertically or horizontally, I'd go horizontally. Game and Watch's d-air has incredible priority, and in order to beat it, you have to time Bowser's U-air, as well as predict the opponent's DI. In order to kill them effectively, space B-Airs well, and also try to grab to B-throw.

I'm not exactly sure if all of these are foolproof, because these are mainly based on my own weaknesses, being a GW player. The attacks to absolutely avoid are the u-tilt out of a GW throw, the D-tilt, the F-air (easy to crouch tho), and the neutral air.

The perfect stage to counterpick Game and Watch would be Fountain of Dreams. The stage, although really high up, is small from left to right, and the varying platforms can be perfect for hitting the GW from above or below, and also avoiding low % chain grabs.

In summary:
Crouch cancel the F-air.
Avoid grabs with roll dodges, then use Down B or Down Smash.
Another thing to consider: Bowser's edge attack recovery (the rolling shell one) is a good surprise hit, and using Bowser's Down B to edgeguard will work (I think).

I must cease my ranting now. Good luck, and may your balls never go inert.

 

[Lit]

yeah bowser is pretty good.....

 

[Lit]

who do you guys think the best bowser in the world in...

 

[Gimpyfish62]

dont double post, also thats not relevant to the topic in any way

EDIT: see? the edit button is used for things like that, and try to avoid single line posts as well

 

[choknater]

xD seeing gimpyfish's name as the latest poster i thought i had gotten help from THE bowser himself.

anyways to anubis and palafrak: thanks for the input, it helped a bit. i'm getting a feel of how to kill him and space him and not feeling so afraid. funny how i'm getting help from game and watch players xD!

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'll post something about this matchup later perhaps, i've got homework and stuff T-T


no fun, no fun

 

[KevinM]

Well seeing as Gimpy is busy at the moment and seeing as how i play a lot of low tiers pretty effectively perhaps i can shed some light on the subject for you

A good GAW can be real trouble for a Boozer player just because unfortunately like most characters it has a good juggle game against him with his D-tilts and U-tilts and is quicker and has his Nair for killability.

The GAW is going to be (if decent) faster then you are, if their not well then obviously you wouldn't need help with this thread so here we go.

Your going to be able too spam a lot of Shffl'd Fairs at the GAW to knock him back and disrupt his rhythem. All it is, is timing, shield as they approach and as soon as you get the chance try and knock them back with the Shffl.

Up-B'ing out of the shield is going to be another god send for you in this match, he's floaty so you'll be able to pop him up to regroup, by getting him up in the air and disrupting his rhythem you'll be able to formulate some kind of plan.

His main concerns for you are his D-Tilt, for the oobvious reason that it leads to you getting the crap combo'd out of you with Nairs and Up-Tilts and also really takes your flow out. My advice for this is to shield into your up-B and pop him up and try and Up-tilt him for some cheap damage.

His Shffl game against bowser is really good mainly because like you stated his Fair has the disjointed hit box. However the interesting thing about this move is that if you hit at the edges of it, its a lot weaker. So look for a really quick and cheap shield grab. Lead into a downthrow and tech chase it with a Shffl'd Fair. The GAW should prolly realize he shouldn't shffl any more. If your not able to get the throw *gasp* Up-B out of your shield... you should realize by now that as a boozer player your Up-B is a savior

To get the GAW off the edge i recommend hitting him with a Bair that was sweetspotted so you send him at a low angle off the stage pretty far... this keeps him from being able to float all the way back to the stage without using a jump leading into....

Edge Game
(Quite the Segway i know)

So you managed to get the GAW off the stage good job but the good thing of him being a floaty character so its easy to knock him off also works against you in the fact that he can DI back to the stage sometimes before even needing a jump.

To edgeguard a GAW thats high up its usual good waiting near the edge and getting ready to Shffle an aerial to knock him back off preferably the Bair to knock him lower then the stage again. You can try and use the option of the tilt but because he's coming from so high and his floaty air control DI letting him pretty much float back to the stage without a jump makes it to unpredictable to just sit there and pray he lands in a good spot.

When you finally get him below or even with the stage the challenge is not over yet for he can still be a little bit of a bother but with boozers really good edgeguarding game he shouldn't be a problem for you at this point. It's business as usual really.

When the GAW is coming in you have to think of a couple of key points:

1. Is he going to try and sweetspot, or needs to sweetspot.
2. How high can he make it over the stage if possible
3. Does he have his second jump available?
4. What to say when i get the stock (once confident enough)

Ok here's how to deal with each of those options.

1. So the GAW is pretty low so his only option is to sweetspot.. this one is a fairly easy one to deal with. Roll to the edge if you have enough time or just stay far enough away to get ready for a fortresshog. The timing is fairly easy once you've seen it enough and just time it so that you get there with your invincibility frames on his way up.

2. If he's coming above the stage throw out a down angled f-tilt to intercept him on his way up and knock him further back.. from there its just predicting where he's coming and knocking him further and further away until he dies or you can comfortably edgehog him.

3. His second jump being available leaves it all up too predicting whether it will fall under one or two so from there follow that advice...

4. Go with something like... Wheres your bell now? idk i haven't perfected step four yet haha

Well thats what i have for you i hope that you go to smash some serious 2D character butt

And lets hope gimpy can post his thoughts as well.

Edit: Counter Stages
Yoshi's Story- Small Deathlines equal quick kills on the light GAW as well as the fact that he won't be able to sweet spot the ledge meaning a good Angled F-tilt will most likely knock him to his death.
FoD- Small horizontal deathlines meaning that you can kill him quickly with a sweet spotted Bair. Plus again platforms are good for a boozer.
Battlefield- Screws GAW SO BAD he will have a difficult time sweet spotting and so that means he will most likely flub a lot of recoverys. And the platforms are good for your manuverability.


Good Luck and Happy Smashing

 

[Wilhelmsan]

I might be wrong but I don't think G&W can sweetspot recovery on Bowser's Story, so your Dtilt can definitely be used as an effective edgeguard.

 

[KevinM]

Yoshi's Story* and yes Wilhelm you are most correct, hooray for small deathlines


Gimpy's Edit: Bowser's story isn't a typo silly face

Kevin's Edit: haha sorry didn't realize that my bad never realized it

 

[choknater]

thanks so much kevinM that helped a ton.

xD sometimes i like to call it marth's story or ganon story but i guess bowser story works too.

btw i played against the gw today and i was able to beat him pretty thoroughly... still challenging though. a close 1-stock. i'll keep working on it.

 

[KevinM]

Hey glad to see i can help maybe gimpy coul think that this could be like an important mini FAQ and sticky it o.O yea right haha...

Good luck and hopefully you will be able to do better and better against the GAW until you can four stock him with boozers dark koopa magik

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'm pretty sure the "bowser vs game and watch" matchup, even if its really intensely looked into, doesn't happen even CLOSE to enough to warrant a sticky from either side LOL

what are there like 2 game and watch players? XD

 

[KevinM]

Haha i know leave me alone gimpy a kid can dream can't he hope you agree with it though.

Dire and hasn't BS have a GAW

 

[Wilhelmsan]

-Fortress is great, but don't try to go through his dtilt, you will die
-Trading hits with G&W almost always works to your advantage (edit: not trading hits with G&W's Chair/Manhole/Flag/Hammers/Turtles/etc., but the character itself)
-KO off the top with upB/uptilt
-Cunning use of the Bair will help tremendously

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ummmm fortress definitely beats his dtilt lol

 

[KevinM]

Yea fortress pretty much eats threw everything GAW has Wilhem

Happy Easter all

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Keep in mind that 100% of G&W's moveset is disjointed. I don't see how fortress can break through a disjointed hitbox o.o

 

[Gimpyfish62]

it tings with his ground moves and you can act faster out of the ting/have invincibility into monster hitbox, its not like you can just fortress all around the stage and win lol

 

[KevinM]

Oh... there go all my stratagies for my boozer...

Yea it just has less lag and more priority then the dreaded GAW D Tilt

 

[choknater]

thanks guys i'm having a lot less trouble... but i still find it difficult to handle aggression. bowser's shield to fortress helps an incredible amount, but there are times where i will find myself with a weak shield that gets beaten by another aerial. fair and nair have huge impacts on the shield with lots of stun, and the bair and dair have multiple hits. it's pretty annoying.

- does light shielding help?
- does rolling away help?

i can't seem to shield grab him like... ever. and when i do, i don't know which throw to use lol.

another thing... i know utilt can kill him really easily but i can't seem to find situations where he's on top of me. i guess for this case i'll have to play a stage with low enough platforms to set up a utilt from under it. when he's coming down from on top with a dair i don't know what to do. believe it or not it seems to beat usmash, and shield fortressing doesn't always work if my shield is low. light shield... >_> its difficult for me to input sometimes, i don't know if it'll help.

 

[KevinM]

Light Shielding is extremely useful for a bowser user.. you say you have trouble inputting it huh? You should use shield toggling, bring it up with R and then use Z to toggle between light and heavy shield.. i find that helps to ease the input of the light shield.

Never Roll With Bowser just fortress away from them its quicker then your roll and you get out of it quicker and it just is all in all less punishable. Shield Grabbing a GAW can be really hard but if you get one i would prolly use either the back or forward through mainly because U-Throw isn't that good period and D-Throw doesn't effect a game and watch.

Setting up the U-Tilt is really easy if you shuffle them in with your aerials. at one point just shffl a fair to knock him up chase after and Utilt him to his death. It takes a while to get used too but it owns floaty characters.

Happy 500th Post Me- Least i Used it in the boozer boards

 

[Dark Iori Yagami]

Yea the fortress owns the little guy. The tilt is also good.

 

[choknater]

*bump*

thank you guys for all the help, my bowser has gotten better a great deal and i beat his GaW consistently now. fortress ftw, apparently. you guys are right, it ***** everything. i read gimpy's old bowser guide about why he doesn't suck, and it teaches a lot. fair ftw also. ftilt is great too.

and yes kevinM i learned shield toggling, it's very useful with bowser's big body. thanks

 

[KevinM]

Hey read my guide too haha

Mainly cause i need opinions on it