Bowser Jr.'s potential.

[Saltyman]

He's a lot better than people give him credit for, but can really struggle on certain stages against some high tiers.

Compared to many of the other low-mid tiers, he does have an insane combo game, burst damage, and an early kill confirm. Once you get to higher percents it can be really difficult to pick up the win against some characters.

Many of your best tools and combos are only good at lower percents. He's really not easy to gimp I don't know where people got that idea from, he's one of the best wallers and edgeguarders in the game. He's not top tier though. Subpar frame data, terrible grab and bad ftilt, and generally unreliable KO options.

Matchups against popular and top tier characters are important. He actually does extremely well against some like Fox, but loses most of them. I would easily put him mid to mid-high tier but he still does have his issues that hold him back.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Basically what I've learned over the course of this game, is that Bowser Jr. is one of those oddball lower-tier characters that can still perform very well against most/all of the cast if played well, with the correct mindset.

He has a lot of mixups and can be really tricky with traps, and most of his downfall comes from when he gets pressured/combo'd, and when he gets gimped (press f to pay respects.) If the Jr. player can dance around and avoid getting grabbed/combo'd a lot, and try to avoid gimp situations, then the Jr. can really dictate a lot of the match. One issue that a lot of players face (not only Jr. players) is that they get discouraged or even mad if they have to go against a bad matchup or against a high/top tier character.
I'm here to say that it helps 100% to go into every match with a cool and collected mindset, with the determination to throw some toys, have fun, and kart to victory. I had to face our state's best Rosa a few weeks back and nearly took the set (unfortunately died at 3% from a jab), so it's definitely possible to overcome seemingly-less-than-favorable situations/matches.

Just keep at it fellow Jr. players, we can do this. We have to work extra hard, but we can do this.

 

[Onoh]

f- for all the 10% and lower gimps.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Mfw I get gimped at super early %

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

It also helps that our dair is incredible (at least I think so)

It's one of my main tools, and its ability to combo into itself and other aerials with the correct reaction/read on the DI is so great for stringing damaging combos together. And then of course there's the fact that we can drill people down to the blastzone if done right (avoiding the last hit of dair that pops them up) and still recover ourselves.

 

[Saltyman]

It also helps that our dair is incredible (at least I think so)

It's one of my main tools, and its ability to combo into itself and other aerials with the correct reaction/read on the DI is so great for stringing damaging combos together. And then of course there's the fact that we can drill people down to the blastzone if done right (avoiding the last hit of dair that pops them up) and still recover ourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcykOOuv9s
I made this recently, it literally does combo into everything. With Mechakoopa out you can pull off some crazy combos.

I really like using the drag down drill against most characters. Against some like Mario it can mean certain death, but even they can recover or get the last hit they're still left in a terrible postion while you have all of you're tools and kart dash jump still available.
It also tends to beat out a lot of recoveries, and against walls is pretty good for stagespiking. The landing hitbox can actually stagespike as well but dtilt, dsmash, Kart Spin (also blocks a lot of recoveries, RIP Mac and Cloud) and down angled forward smash can also 2 frame punish.

They have some crazy burst damage, but outside of Hammer setups or smash reads their best option is definitely edgeguarding or going for the wall of pain. That Forward Air is really ridiculous and depending on how it hits you can combo into aerial kart spin and still recover. That thing kills insanely early offstage, I also like to just fly off the ledge with it and immediately kart dash. You pretty much fly straight when doing that and go a fair distance.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcykOOuv9s
I made this recently, it literally does combo into everything. With Mechakoopa out you can pull off some crazy combos.

I really like using the drag down drill against most characters. Against some like Mario it can mean certain death, but even they can recover or get the last hit they're still left in a terrible postion while you have all of you're tools and kart dash jump still available.
It also tends to beat out a lot of recoveries, and against walls is pretty good for stagespiking. The landing hitbox can actually stagespike as well but dtilt, dsmash, Kart Spin (also blocks a lot of recoveries, RIP Mac and Cloud) and down angled forward smash can also 2 frame punish.

They have some crazy burst damage, but outside of Hammer setups or smash reads their best option is definitely edgeguarding or going for the wall of pain. That Forward Air is really ridiculous and depending on how it hits you can combo into aerial kart spin and still recover. That thing kills insanely early offstage, I also like to just fly off the ledge with it and immediately kart dash. You pretty much fly straight when doing that and go a fair distance.

Oh man, don't even get me started on aerial kart spinout, that thing is incredible. I can't even begin to count how many times I've reversed an edgeguard on someone with it (reversing edgeguards is one of my better points).

And yeah, just a single hit of dair can mean bad news for characters like Corrin or Mario with their hitbox up-b's, because it literally just makes them stop and fall and usually they don't react to it in time to up-b early enough, or air-dodge trying to tech (which makes them fall to their death since one hit of dair is basically a reset like that)

F-air is so juicy with how disjointed and long-lasting it is. It's such a great tool across the board, especially for edgeguarding or preventing an edgeguard

It would be great if Cannonball was a bit better, but I still use it nonetheless. I hear a lot of people say that it's one of the worst projectiles in the game, but I don't let that bother me. I view Cannonball as a great read option, because if you manage to get a decently charged cannonball on them, that can turn into an edgeguard or even a KO. My utmost favorite thing to use Cannonball for, is when I hit someone far offstage, I'll jump up and off the stage charging it, and I'll try to get the 50/50 read on if they'll airdodge or jump/attack. Usually it's airdodge, which turns into a fully charged cannonball in their face offstage.
Cannonball can also be used to cover their landings too, especially Bayonetta if you notice she's used a lot of specials.

 

[Saltyman]

Honestly I'm fine with cannonball, it really does work on the character. If it charged a bit faster or had something added it would be nice. But it does destroy and go through tons of projectiles and heavily damages shields. It's a great anti-camping tool with Mechakoopa which blocks pretty much every projectile XD It also destroys Pikmin like they're nothing if they aren't near Olimar and can go through multiple projectiles and still hit. It's quite good against some spammy characters on FD.

The main use is destroying your own mechakoopa if someone else grabs it, even if they shield it will destroy it.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Yeah, I honestly get peeved when people actually tell me "Why are you using Cannonball? That move is absolute trash, stop using it. You'll never hit it at a higher level"

There's a thing called reads, option coverage, and anti-camping like you mentioned.

 

[Conn1496]

People talk about cannonball as if it's meant to be used as a traditional projectile. It's not. Jr. has no traditional projectiles.

I tend to use cannonball more like a Smash attack, because that's really what it's more like, a ranged Smash attack that can be started in the air. But it does have it's uses. I like to drop the cannonball onto people at range who don't expect it, etc. and it can be a really good option if you ledge-grab cancel it (which isn't hard at all).

It's not a great move by any means, but it's still hugely underrated.

[Edit]: So ESAM just made a top 10 worst moves video and put cannonball at #1. This makes no sense to me 'cause I just straight-up think Jr. has worse moves than cannon. Like, I don't even think it's Jr's worst move, so how can it be the worst move in the game? #ESAMopinions lmao

(For the record, I think Jr's worst move is honestly Jab. I think it's the worst jab in the game.)

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Yeah, when I saw that video's title I knew he would place Cannonball as top 3 worst, because it's ESAM and he thinks Jr. is trash.

I've actually put a lot of practice into different charge timings for different angles, a lot of people are astounded when they're trying to recover and they either get hit or trapped by a perfectly angled falling cannonball.

But yeah, you're absolutely right Conn1496 when you're talking about how cannonball isn't a traditional projectile. People don't understand that it's not just one of those "Oh it can only be shot in neutral and has no uses, it's obviously a trash move and if you use it then you're a trash Jr. player, I'll never get hit by it".

Jab, oh how I love you and hate you at the same time. Great damage and can kill, but so easy to SDI out of. Press 1

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, when I saw that video's title I knew he would place Cannonball as top 3 worst, because it's ESAM and he thinks Jr. is trash.

I've actually put a lot of practice into different charge timings for different angles, a lot of people are astounded when they're trying to recover and they either get hit or trapped by a perfectly angled falling cannonball.

But yeah, you're absolutely right Conn1496 when you're talking about how cannonball isn't a traditional projectile. People don't understand that it's not just one of those "Oh it can only be shot in neutral and has no uses, it's obviously a trash move and if you use it then you're a trash Jr. player, I'll never get hit by it".

Jab, oh how I love you and hate you at the same time. Great damage and can kill, but so easy to SDI out of. Press 1

To be fair, I do think Jr. is really bad too, but I have a skewed view on tiers already. lol

That being said, I'll elaborate. I think Jr is a rounded character with a lot of weight, but he's really inconsistent in places and requires a lot of reads for any real advantage. I recently reevaluated Jr myself and while I think of him having one of the best U-airs and also one of the best F-smashes, and also a really tricky playstyle, I don't think there's a lot major Jr has going for them outside those.

Maybe in time, we'll improve things like his shield pressure and punish game, but for now we're pretty far behind. The best playstyle is to wall and bait/trap IMO and neither of those are things I think Jr does particularly well, and while our traps are good, they require a fair amount of set-up.

What is Jr's saving grace though is that you can kind of switch up playstyles on the fly because he is quite a versatile all-rounder, being able to swap between pressuring and defending on with a few key moves, it's just unfortunate a lot of those tools are sub-par and it leaves you in a position where your opponent has to be susceptible to two different playstyles in the first place for you to get a real lead.

Things that could have been patched to make Jr better are things like more reliable jab or dash or even D-tilt and we didn't get any of those, so I think we're just hanging on to "viable" with the tide of the meta and how people react to the MU. Still, he's somewhat of a sleeper because of the high learning curve of the MU, and I think that certain high-tier characters do have to watch out for him coming out of the woodwork and giving them havoc.

Someone go get Jade to say "Hi" to the Ryu boards for us. lololololol I'm sorry, that was mean. GGs Trela tho. Those games were awesome.

 

[Saltyman]

ESAM is a goof. He's been hating on Bowser Jr. from the beginning even though a large number or players including Tweek and Zero consider him to be more of a mid-tier with an interesting matchup spread. That matchup spread is also what prevents him from being better, bad matchups against popular top-tiers..

But there's quite a few useless moves in the game, Cannonball has several important functions on the character and some interesting techs and offstage use. I wouldn't even have it on that list at all. If you have to deal with characters like Villager, Link, Toon Link, or Olimar that cannon suddenly becomes an amazing option.

I should also point out that this can clash with some recoveries and reduce their distance. IE. Ganondorfs Up B and PK Thunder 2. It won't actually damage them if it's uncharged so it doesn't reset their recovery. I've messed up a lot of Ness' players by doing that lol.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I think ESAM ****s on Bowser Jr. so much because of how easy of a time Pikachu has against him, and how easy it is for Pikachu to gimp him, and he thinks that "oh because of that, Jr. is trash and everything about him sucks"

 

[Saltyman]

Yeah Pikachu is an unfortunate case where you don't have time to get away. Best option is to try to trade and save a jump or just immediately dodge out of up b, but still.. not a great matchup. I think a lot of people rating Bowser Jr. on tier list forget he can dodge or attack almost immediately out of up b and doesn't have to rush to the ledge. A lot of the arguments are just "easy to gimp".

I keep forgetting fsmash is so safe on shield now.. sometimes the best choice is to just keep throwing out the up-angled fsmash. That hitbox omg. I still run into the end of it by accident sometimes. You have to be a bit careless to get shield broken by Bowser Jr. unless you get the weird hit on kart spin, but he's very good at pressuring shields and discouraging shield grabs.

Although I have landed the double hit on the up b hammer and broken nearly full shields.. I still have no idea why that happens sometimes. I've watched replays and I've had times where I land 2 sourspots, sometimes 2 sweetspots, and sometimes one of each. This seems to happen to DK a lot even if he isn't shielding..

You thought you could 2-frame punish me? Take this Hammer through the ledge.

 

[Conn1496]

I've seen people forget that Jr. can jump out of side-B before... People really pay near 0 attention to Jr. and I think that has a lot to do with why people underrate him. That being said, I don't think it's the only reason people underrate him - I think a lot of people just don't know the tricks and traps he can perform because they were all too busy looking at more interesting trapping characters like Duck Hunt and Pac-Man.

I'd honestly call Jr. the gatekeeper to low/mid because he's not that great, but he's basically pass-grade viable with a decent secondary. -and while people have had some solo success with characters below Jr. on most lists, I think that's just down to the game's surprisingly balanced nature and the fact, well, most characters are also basically viable to some degree. I'd also disagree with a lot of tier lists, so that probably has a lot to do with it. lol

 

[Onoh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcykOOuv9s
I made this recently, it literally does combo into everything. With Mechakoopa out you can pull off some crazy combos.

I really like using the drag down drill against most characters. Against some like Mario it can mean certain death, but even they can recover or get the last hit they're still left in a terrible postion while you have all of you're tools and kart dash jump still available.
It also tends to beat out a lot of recoveries, and against walls is pretty good for stagespiking. The landing hitbox can actually stagespike as well but dtilt, dsmash, Kart Spin (also blocks a lot of recoveries, RIP Mac and Cloud) and down angled forward smash can also 2 frame punish.

They have some crazy burst damage, but outside of Hammer setups or smash reads their best option is definitely edgeguarding or going for the wall of pain. That Forward Air is really ridiculous and depending on how it hits you can combo into aerial kart spin and still recover. That thing kills insanely early offstage, I also like to just fly off the ledge with it and immediately kart dash. You pretty much fly straight when doing that and go a fair distance.

I watched your Mewtwo uair combos as well. What were those those Cloud sound fxs?! lol

 

[iMgod]

To be quite honest, all characters in Smash 4 have potential at this point, the game is becoming a lot more balanced.
Though of course, a few characters are still extremely better than others *cough*Cloud*cough*
But in reality, any amount of practice with any character in Smash 4 at this point could get you decently far in competitive play.

 

[Reila]

I think Jr. still has potential to rise. The game is two years old, but technically that isn't all that much, considering the updates we got during these two years. I think right now a big problem with Jr. is that not that many people play him or talk about him. I was reading the most recent tier list thread on this board and he is barely mentioned and when he is mentioned, is when other characters are being compared to him.

That being said, I still wish they would update the game once more just to give a few buffs to some often ignored characters, like Jr. and Duck Hunt.

 

[Conn1496]

That being said, I still wish they would update the game once more just to give a few buffs to some often ignored characters, like Jr. and Duck Hunt.

Jr only really needs one or two buffs to be solid IMO (Jab, please for the love of grief.). As for Duck Hunt, I hear they actually have a bit of a presence in Japan... So maybe Japan are seeing something everywhere else doesn't? *shrug*

Regardless, people do need to pay Jr. more attention. Especially after some notable players swapped out for different characters. :\

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Honestly, to me, if they removed Jr's gimping mechanic and fixed his tech glitch, he'd be much better.

 

[Conn1496]

Honestly, to me, if they removed Jr's gimping mechanic and fixed his tech glitch, he'd be much better.

I don't mind the gimping mechanic. It's never the 100% reason I lose a game, I can work around it. Jr.'s just generally lacking in reliability with certain moves and his set-ups are a little slow. -so yeah, overall reliability...

No idea what the tech glitch is though, to be honest - I can't say I've ever come across a real problem with teching.

 

[Onoh]

If they fix his jab so it's harder to sdi out of, he would be immediately better because of the amount of damage it does and the last hit can kill. Making the cooldown on his projectiles less would also help as well. Maybe by 5 or 10 frames.

 

[Dcas]

As ive stated before, Junior has a hard time approaching once the other person knows the MU.

Jr struggles a lot with shield and when pressured by extremely fast characters or with superior frame data. To solve these 2 major issues, he needs:

- A solid nair that comes out extremely fast, such as villager and hopefully with the same duration. This will solve all his struggles when trying to get out of combos or tricky situations.

-As for shields there might be 2 options: one, either increase grab range or make it faster ). Two, make his moves actually drill throu shield and make hitstun/shield damage larger. Either case would make opponent think twice before shielding, making our neutral much more dangerous.

We wont get either at this rate, but yeah Jr is doomed to be at best mid tier. Similar to falco´s case, where there are many good tools but the bad stuff, is VERY bad.

 

[divade]

I don't mind the gimping mechanic. It's never the 100% reason I lose a game, I can work around it. Jr.'s just generally lacking in reliability with certain moves and his set-ups are a little slow. -so yeah, overall reliability...

No idea what the tech glitch is though, to be honest - I can't say I've ever come across a real problem with teching.

If you stage spike Jr when he's out of cart, he keeps the 'bounce' momentum even if you tech it. so at high percent it doesn't matter if you tech or not, U Ded.

Yeah losing to shields so bad, being combo food, and being on the slow side make it impossible to be above mid tier it seems.