Bowser Jr.'s potential.

[Onoh]

I have always really enjoyed this character. He has a good neutral, decent combos, great edge guarding abilities, and is pretty mobile for being heavy. He's always been listed as a "mid-tier to low-tier" character and Tweek, one of the few Bowser Jr. players, is using Cloud instead. I feel Jr. could have the potential to be "high-tier" due to all of his underrated tools and the points I have said earlier. Does anyone else think this, or am I just blinded because I main the character?

 

[Ridel]

I've been maining him since day 1 and I can say I don't ever see him becoming high tier tbh. Jr is one of the easiest characters to exploit if the once the opponents figures out Jr's weakness and develops counter play. Lets also not forget a lot of top-high tiers are difficult MU's for Jr in general and if you want to go lower he loses to characters that out zone him (Villy, Mega Man, Pac-Man). That being said I absolutly think he is viable with a high tier secondary. Due to Jr's unorthadox tools and peoples lack of knowledge of him you can actually plow through some mid tier players with ease. But for those pesky high tiers; Meta Knight and Corrin seem like the best picks imo they cover ZSS, Rosa, Mario, Shiek, and Cloud much better then Jr. So my conclusion is mid tier at best and viable with a high tier secondary.

 

[Conn1496]

I think at best, he's at the top of mid-tier, but I don't see him as high-tier at all. His appalling grab game and his few unreliable moves really ruin it for him, and I don't think his edge-guarding is super great either (It's more than passable, but there are a ton of characters with better edge-guarding considered worse or similar tier.), but I will say his combos and strings especially are really nasty.

I actually think his neutral is pretty bad. He's got generally slow attacks and two slow projectiles, and that's it. Outside of MKs, you don't have a damn thing, and you have to basically read how your opponent will react to the MK just to get the most out of it. In the bigger picture, against slow, campy characters, he has to get in or he'll suffer for it, and his mobility isn't that great, while against rushdown, I don't think he has tools to space himself and keep opponents away. So in a game where safety is a huge asset, Jr. falls far short on the risk/reward scale, and that's his biggest issue.

All in all, I think he benefits really well from getting momentum, but struggles with it in a lot of MUs... He has some great conversions, mix-ups and set-ups (and his moves lingering for a while can be quite the bonus, too), but outside his weight (which most players can get around), they're his only strengths. A lot of his moves are slow and/or unreliable, and his kill set-ups are pretty average. He relies very heavily on reads and tricks, and while they offer good reward, they're not worth him being top-tier IMO.

 

[Ridel]

I think at best, he's at the top of mid-tier, but I don't see him as high-tier at all. His appalling grab game and his few unreliable moves really ruin it for him, and I don't think his edge-guarding is super great either (It's more than passable, but there are a ton of characters with better edge-guarding considered worse or similar tier.), but I will say his combos and strings especially are really nasty.

I agree on everything here accept the edge-guarding statement. I think if we are looking at off stage edge-guarding then yeah he is pretty run of the mill. But his ledge coverage options are really good if since he has a lot of moves that can force a certain get-up option and negate invulnerability with multi hit moves.

 

[Conn1496]

I agree on everything here accept the edge-guarding statement. I think if we are looking at off stage edge-guarding then yeah he is pretty run of the mill. But his ledge coverage options are really good if since he has a lot of moves that can force a certain get-up option and negate invulnerability with multi hit moves.

TBH, I just count covering get-ups as covering/reading options in general. Outside of D-tilt, D-smash and maybe Up-B though, you've not got a whole lot to actually protect the edge from being grabbed since your moves in general aren't particularly notably low-hitting (F-smash angled down is also pretty okay, but it's only really useful against characters who recover high anyway.). MK throws, maybe? But yeah, your opponent being on the ledge gives you an opportune moment to set up an MK and cover multiple get-up options while a few of your moves linger or provide multiple coverage already, but that all reels back to the whole "being good with momentum" and "having good set-ups" thing IMO, since you can basically force a certain type of get-up... -if you even get that much momentum in the first place, that is.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Bowser Jr.'s overall viability is kind of sketchy, since his projectiles are slow or very predictable. In fact, some of his custom specials are better to use over the defaults. One example is Koopa Drift, where despite packing less knockback than Clown Kart Dash, it delivers multiple hits during the spinout, and it also improves Bowser Jr.'s horizontal recovery; this can go well alongside Koopa Meteor, which really hurts Bowser Jr.'s horizontal mobility whenever it's used.

 

[BelieveInParappa]

lol Jr's neutral game is amazing. Mechakoopas cover ground options and can be used as a throwable item and he has good range + disjointed hitboxes for days. Good combo potential too with uair strings, the stuff he can do out of side-B (including his killing side-B to up-B hammer combo), and shield pressure with mechakoopa and jabs.

He's great at spacing with fair/bair/mechs, so even in matchups where you'd think he'd get eaten alive by characters who combo him easily, he can fend them off and keep them at a safe distance. His grab game is pretty crappy yeah, but he gets reliable and good damage with b-throw (12%) or even f-throw (9%). Fsmash is easily one of the best fsmashes in the game overall for its damage and safety on shield and his upsmash is pretty good too due to its fast startup. And he's one of the heaviest characters in the game, so he lives surprisingly long.

And he does well on practically any legal stage. Platforms help him because he's able to abuse uairs on opponents above him; bigger stages like FD and TNC = more room for Jr to move and more space for him to control; he has a longer life expectancy on low-ceiling stages. The only stages I'd say are inconveniences for him are Dream Land and Lylat mainly because your mechs can fall off the stage due to Whispy/the stage tilting. Other than that, I feel comfortable on most stages and I just ban whatever stage my opponent may have an advantage on.

Only issues are his gimpable recovery, being combo food because he's heavy, and getting walled out by projectile users, but when you've mastered him like I have/nearly have, he's a beast. If you keep up with VGBootCamp's Xanadu streams, keep an eye out for me over these next few months. I'll be getting top 8 soon, for sure.

 

[Ulti-Mario]

What I don't get is that people think Bowser Jr is bad, yet they don't know how the character plays, or because Tweek dropped him, or because not many people use him, I believe he is Mid tier instead of a low tier unlike other people

 

[BelieveInParappa]

Peep how I said two posts ago that I'd get top 8 at Xanadu with Jr and since then I've gotten 5th out of 75 entrants and 4th out of 131 entrants.

I don't tell lies.

 

[RoyNoSword]

Bowser jr has not one throw combo. All high tiers have either throw combos or kill throws (or both) and bowser jr has neither, combined with a slow, laggy grab. This makes him super vulnerable to shields. His approaches are unsafe and he doesn't have the speed to mix up opponents. Also, he gets camped so hard by villager. Average villager could beat an excellent bowser jr if they just run, because he can't safely chase and villager can pocket the mecha koopa. His MUs against the other high tiers are also poor, his frame data lackluster, and his meta poorly developed.

Idk what you consider a top tier but he is not one by my definition.

 

[Ridel]

Peep how I said two posts ago that I'd get top 8 at Xanadu with Jr and since then I've gotten 5th out of 75 entrants and 4th out of 131 entrants.

I don't tell lies.

But, but MV/DA is free dou?!

Seriously keep it up though, you're going great.

 

[Onoh]

Neither Cloud nor Ryu have viable combo/kill throws. I guess you can do a little with Ryu's dthrow and Cloud's dthrow mixup, but they aren't "combo" throws. Also the fact that the meta for the character has not been explored in-depth is also another reason for untapped potential.

 

[Onoh]

Bowser jr has not one throw combo. All high tiers have either throw combos or kill throws (or both) and bowser jr has neither, combined with a slow, laggy grab. This makes him super vulnerable to shields. His approaches are unsafe and he doesn't have the speed to mix up opponents. Also, he gets camped so hard by villager. Average villager could beat an excellent bowser jr if they just run, because he can't safely chase and villager can pocket the mecha koopa. His MUs against the other high tiers are also poor, his frame data lackluster, and his meta poorly developed.

Idk what you consider a top tier but he is not one by my definition.

I forgot to quote that sorry.

 

[Pixel_]

Does anybody know whether Bowser Jr or Yoshi has better results? I want a comparison because people say that Yoshi has bad results but a ton of potential, and it seems like the opposite with BJ. If BJ is getting the results and Yoshi isn't, how high would that put him?

 

[DKGrayson]

Fox doesn't have a kill throw or kill combo?

 

[Pixel_]

Fox doesn't have a kill throw or kill combo?

I think this is the wrong thread

 

[DKGrayson]

He's a top tier, and the post above mentioned top tiers all having kill throws or combos.

Fox doesn't either, along with the other top tiers mentioned

 

[Conn1496]

He's a top tier, and the post above mentioned top tiers all having kill throws or combos.

Fox doesn't either, along with the other top tiers mentioned

Difference is that Fox has plenty of other tools to compensate. -and Fox's up throw is actually really good for setting up into U-air, which is a kill move. Jr has near nothing of worth off his grabs, and a pretty bad grab on top of that.

Stuff off throws is nice, for sure, but characters like Fox or Cloud don't need anything off them, because they have tools like Laser or U-Smash for Fox, or in Cloud's case, Limit or his overall ridiculous disjoints. Fox and Cloud's grabs still give them the option to beat out shields, and that's all that matters for those two. Jr could do with a throw option because not only is his throw bad anyway, but his moves just don't compensate IMO.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

BowJow needs buffs.

You guys gotta scream like people did with bayo. Don't even listen to reason, just shout out all your issues with the character and be loud as you possibly can be.

 

[Conn1496]

BowJow needs buffs.

You guys gotta scream like people did with bayo. Don't even listen to reason, just shout out all your issues with the character and be loud as you possibly can be.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Sakurai, please fix Jr's unreliable as **** hitboxes and give us a good throw, damnit! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Did I win?..

 

[Baby_Sneak]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Sakurai, please fix Jr's unreliable as **** hitboxes and give us a good throw, damnit! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Did I win?..

Great enthusiasm, but your friends are too quiet for this to work. We need all members to scream their lungs out! All together now!

 

[Onoh]

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUFSSSSSSS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!

 

[Dcas]

Peep how I said two posts ago that I'd get top 8 at Xanadu with Jr and since then I've gotten 5th out of 75 entrants and 4th out of 131 entrants.

I don't tell lies.

Xanadus lvl is laughable at best. More laughable is the fact people using that tournament as a measurement tool.

On the other hand, theres no more potential for this character, as some have said it is a solid secondary pick for certain MU but BJR will be always a mid tier unless they fix some core issues of this character.

 

[Onoh]

Has anyone seen the first part of Esam's tier list? I find his placement of Jr. to be pretty insulting.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I honestly think Jr. actually is low/bottom tier, but he's not unusable. In my view, he's a very oddball low tier that has the potential to still get results if played well.

I solo-main Iggy now (I used to co-main Iggy/Charizard, but I dropped Charizard to focus more effort on Iggy), and I play very wacky. I think if you play the way you feel is right/optimal, you can do it with Jr.
I got 7th out of 76 people at a tournament yesterday, and it had most of our state's top players there.

 

[Ridel]

Has anyone seen the first part of Esam's tier list? I find his placement of Jr. to be pretty insulting.

I think it was very reasonable. Remember he also stated that despite these characters being low tier they still have a lot of good merits because the balance of this game is so tight. You also have to consider we have little rep and results to put us anywhere near mid tier right now.

 

[Conn1496]

I honestly think Jr. actually is low/bottom tier, but he's not unusable. In my view, he's a very oddball low tier that has the potential to still get results if played well.

Yeah, I can agree with this TBH... Jr. just has a lot of moves that are outright bad or unreliable, but he also has some incredibly dangerous, rather unique and confusing tools. It's just that his risk/reward ratio is completely out. Even one of his better moves, D-Tilt, can get you N-aired by some characters if they DI well, and that's basically the core of 90% of Jr's problems, complete lack of safety. Most of his reliably safe moves don't come out until like... -frame 7... It's so damn irritating.

 

[RoyNoSword]

Neither Cloud nor Ryu have viable combo/kill throws. I guess you can do a little with Ryu's dthrow and Cloud's dthrow mixup, but they aren't "combo" throws. Also the fact that the meta for the character has not been explored in-depth is also another reason for untapped potential.

I concede, they do not get a lot off grabs. However, cloud has limit and ryu has true shoryuken and without those things they would be low tier like bjr. The only hope for bjr is if he has some footstool combo that is killer. Perhaps a few hits of dair to drag them down? Hopefully somebody figures it out lol

 

[RoyNoSword]

Has anyone seen the first part of Esam's tier list? I find his placement of Jr. to be pretty insulting.

Pikachus bair literally will kill bjr the first time he has to up b every single time if the pikachu is good enough. Pikas nair and uair will also not deal enough knockback to get the kart back, as is true with Thunder Jolt. Every pika move gimps bjr and that's why esam thinks he is trash.

 

[Onoh]

Pikachus bair literally will kill bjr the first time he has to up b every single time if the pikachu is good enough. Pikas nair and uair will also not deal enough knockback to get the kart back, as is true with Thunder Jolt. Every pika move gimps bjr and that's why esam thinks he is trash.

Dang I never thought about that. I guess considering that bias better explains why he is placed so low. I'm also a little prejudice for Jr. since I main him and enjoy his style, but I truly think that he could be mid tier.

 

[Nemesis561]

The thing I wish could be done would be a faster grab.. I hate the fact that tomahawk grabbing with jr is not reliable because your opponent can react in time and put out a hitbox to not get grabbed... this would open up opponent's shields a lot IMO... ATM just holding shield is a sound strategy against jr

 

[Conn1496]

The thing I wish could be done would be a faster grab.. I hate the fact that tomahawk grabbing with jr is not reliable because your opponent can react in time and put out a hitbox to not get grabbed... this would open up opponent's shields a lot IMO... ATM just holding shield is a sound strategy against jr

I dunno about "holding shield is sound" since we can apply quite a hefty bit of pressure with stuff like Up-B when played right, but I definitely understand people's irritation with grab. It whiffs, gets punished, etc. all the time... But I think if they just upped his shield pressure game it'd be pretty much okay to ignore buffing his grab (outside of it's reliability, which is overall something Jr has problems with).

Jr's grab is arguably the worst in the game for risk/reward, but I never feel like I need to use it for anything other than making breathing space when my opponent is shielding in my face, so...

 

[pikazz]

I starting to lean that Jr will get higher on the tier list when his Footstool to Jablock is being more explored.
similiar to Megaman Jablock combo, he Footstool on the ground, Z-Drop a Mechakoopa and Footstool them in the air and be in time for landing for jablock with either Late Nair/BAir on low % or with Jabs to either give lots of % depending of the combo or a kill

 

[Onoh]

I starting to lean that Jr will get higher on the tier list when his Footstool to Jablock is being more explored.
similiar to Megaman Jablock combo, he Footstool on the ground, Z-Drop a Mechakoopa and Footstool them in the air and be in time for landing for jablock with either Late Nair/BAir on low % or with Jabs to either give lots of % depending of the combo or a kill

 

[Onoh]

The Beefy Smash Doods also did a video on footstool combos.
Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS46kkk6SBg

 

[A-money2121]

I think there's some untapped potential in there, without a doubt. But Bowser Jr. suffers against projectile-reliant characters, like , /, , , , and (to a certain extent). He's also combo food to agile characters like , , and . Additionally, he doesn't have much in the way of combos, doesn't have a reliable kill throw, has a terrible grab, and his approach options are easily exploitable. He does however, have great aerials, good follow ups from side-b, in my opinion one of the best up-bs out there (both at killing and recovering), pressuring projectiles (down and neutral-b) and can completely body characters without projectiles, like , , , etc. Maybe things will change for Jr. in the long run, although I'd rather see him around mid-tier, because let's be honest - Jr. doesn't have the tools to get into the big league. But hey, it took people a while to realize that Olimar and Ice Climbers were top tier back in Brawl.

 

[Onoh]

TOTALLY AGREE! There's no way Bjr. will be top 20 or anything, but I think will be a great mid-tier counterpick with his matchups against characters such as , , and even who are characters that are currently ranked higher than he is. I'm not certain about this but he seems to also have a 50/50 matchup against who is thriving right now.

 

[A-money2121]

TOTALLY AGREE! There's no way Bjr. will be top 20 or anything, but I think will be a great mid-tier counterpick with his matchups against characters such as , , and even who are characters that are currently ranked higher than he is. I'm not certain about this but he seems to also have a 50/50 matchup against who is thriving right now.

I feel like he's a fair counter against as well, whom has always been a thriving character in the tier lists. Some might disagree with my claim, but the strategy is quite simple. I find that spin-out side-b is a good way to get rid of that darn Luma and leave Rosalina vulnerable and easier to attack. The match-up might still be a bit hard, sure, but just some more evidence that Jr. can be a bit more viable against some characters, especially some of those top tier ones.

 

[Tater]

He's also combo food to agile characters like , , and .Additionally, he doesn't have much in the way of combos

Bruh. Junior has some of the most ridiculous combos in the game at lower %s. You can easily 0-40 most of the cast if you get a down-air and react to which way they get knocked back.

 

[A-money2121]

Bruh. Junior has some of the most ridiculous combos in the game at lower %s. You can easily 0-40 most of the cast if you get a down-air and react to which way they get knocked back.

Compared to other characters, he really doesn't. Just about the only "ridiculous" combo I can think of off the top of my head is side-b -->d-air -->f-air -->neutral combo, but that's about it. He's got no guaranteed throw followups, and yeah, although the combo game is there, it's not as prominent as with other characters, like say Mario, Sheik, etc.