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Bowser Jr.'s Frame Data [Deleted]

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Ridel

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Off topic but am I the only one who thinks the "difficulty" should be altered to "potential". I mean I know character like Shulk and Shiek have a lot of potential at high level but that doesn't necessarily mean there difficult to play.
 
A2ZOMG

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What? Bowser Jr is anything but a zoning character. His best playstyle is rushdown, when the Mechakoopa sets up safe approaches but is garbage for camping when it can be picked up by the opponent. His defense is by far not his strong suit even though he has a few good tools for it like D-tilt and F-smash.
 
KuroganeHammer

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Rushdown doesn't exist in smash 4 outside of a few exceptions. Bowser Jr is definitely not one of them.
 
A2ZOMG

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Then my main complaint is your whole "style" thing is honestly pretty pointless. It's not even clearly defined, and most of the game anyway revolves around footsies and what gets past them.

Also, Jr's offense is clearly his strong point. He's too tall to really wall things consistently but all his attacks do a lot of damage and aren't really slow, and he has a lot of mobility in Kart for maintaining pressure and punishing from distance. So yeah, I'm honestly confused where you get your arbitrary values and terms.
 
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Lorde

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Lmao not even Sakurai knows what Bowser Jr.'s archetype is supposed to be. Seriously, his moveset is a mess without any true focus on anything. He has a laggy projectile that is easily avoidable, a burst moveset special that is predictable and loses to shield in all situations, an item-spawning projectile that is also laggy, and his recovery leaves him prone to getting gimped due to its properties (although it does travel a decent distance). His normals aren't great frame data wise, his smashes are laggy, his aerials are one the slower side (save nair and uair) and have long ending lag/landing lag. Bowser Jr. also has what is probably the worst grab in the game, which means he has really no answer to shields.

Bowser Jr. isn't rushing anyone down with his mostly slow frame data, slow dash and walk (Klown Kart does not remedy this issue), and no answer to shields. Gorl, stop.
 
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Ridel

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Spritzee said:
Lmao not even Sakurai knows what Bowser Jr.'s archetype is supposed to be. Seriously, his moveset is a mess without any true focus on anything. He has a laggy projectile that is easily avoidable, a burst moveset special that is predictable and loses to shield in all situations, an item-spawning projectile that is also laggy, and his recovery leaves him prone to getting gimped due to its properties (although it doesn't travel a decent distance). His normals aren't great frame data wise, his smashes are laggy, his aerials are one the slower side (save nair and uair) and have long ending lag/landing lag. Bowser Jr. also has what is probably the worst grab in the game, which means he has really no answer to shields.

Bowser Jr. isn't rushing anyone down with his mostly slow frame data, slow dash and walk (Klown Kart does not remedy this issue), and no answer to shields. Gorl, stop.
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I agree with all of this except the part about having the worst grab. Ohhh don't get me wrong it's god awful and is no doubt up in top five, but I feel Lucas now has the absolute worst grab in the game.
 
Lorde

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Ridel said:
I agree with all of this except the part about having the worst grab. Ohhh don't get me wrong it's god awful and is no doubt up in top five, but I feel Lucas now has the absolute worst grab in the game.
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Lucas actually has one of the faster tethers (frame 12, I think). The range on it is pretty meh, but it's decent enough. Besides, I think his gigantic zair makes up for a lame grab overall.

Funnily enough, Lucas' tether is the same speed as Bowser Jr.'s non-tether grab. That's why I think it's the worst grab; it's slow af and doesn't even have the range of a tether to make up for it. There's really no reason why his grab was designed to be so awful, but it's Sakaurai so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
 
Ridel

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Spritzee said:
Lucas actually has one of the faster tethers (frame 12, I think). The range on it is pretty meh, but it's decent enough. Besides, I think his gigantic zair makes up for a lame grab overall.

Funnily enough, Lucas' tether is the same speed as Bowser Jr.'s non-tether grab. That's why I think it's the worst grab; it's slow af and doesn't even have the range of a tether to make up for it. There's really no reason why his grab was designed to be so awful, but it's Sakaurai so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
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Yeah, I guess I'm just so accustomed to Jr's that it doesn't feel that as slow as Lucas'.
 
divade

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That's weird, but good to know since I'm working on maining lucas.
 
deepseadiva

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Actually I agree the "style" portion of the frame data collections has always struck me as very subjective considering how objective frame data is.
 
KuroganeHammer

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deepseadiva said:
Actually I agree the "style" portion of the frame data collections has always struck me as very subjective considering how objective frame data is.
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It's meant to be subjective, it's something fun to brighten up a relatively serious website.

I've found that for every person who dislikes the images, and whole like, ten who love them can be found.

I try to keep it as accurate as I can, and short tl;dr of the most popular way a character is played. Generally people seem to agree, but I could understand the concern if I was being ******** and writing things like turtle peach, trapper ganondorf and grappler zelda.
 
V1cegrip

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Jr's ending lag on his grab isn't too bad, that's what keeps him from having 'the worst' grab. Also he has an above average pivot grab that saves his grab from being one of the worst because his pivot is extremely nice actually. grabs I consider worse than jr's:

Pacman (kick me in the nuts lag following a miss)
Villager
Lucas



Others are debatable imo but those grabs are significantly less useful than jr's due to the obnoxious endlag and not enough range to justify it. We may have a grab that is slow and its range is only 1 pixel longer than other standard grabs but at least the endlag isn't atrocious.
 
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Mr Moosebones

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V1cegrip said:
Jr's ending lag on his grab isn't too bad, that's what keeps him from having 'the worst' grab. Also he has an above average pivot grab that saves his grab from being one of the worst because his pivot is extremely nice actually. grabs I consider worse than jr's:

Pacman (kick me in the nuts lag following a miss)
Villager
Lucas



Others are debatable imo but those grabs are significantly less useful than jr's due to the obnoxious endlag and not enough range to justify it. We may have a grab that is slow and its range is only 1 pixel longer than other standard grabs but at least the endlag isn't atrocious.
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Yeah the endlag isnt terrible, its the startup thats the main issue.

Edit: i appreciate this data dump and went through it on the day you posted it but never said anything until now. The site is really easy to read and while I can understand people seeing the bargraphs as a little silly it's all in good fun.

And I and everyone else used to think bjrs dsmash had a huge blindspot. Knowing it's only active for 2 frames explains this perception.

Double Edit: lmao wtf bjr is like one of the best examples of a zoning character in this game. I don't know how you could argue against that. The mk traps exist, yes, but your spacing needs to be consistently perfect if you want those traps to work. You need to intimidate your opponent with your range since his cqc game consists of making a hard read into upsmash and almost literally nothing else.
 
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