Bowser Fix proposition Thread

[Julls]

I don't think f smash should be an instant shield break and it wouldn't be useful anyway because people will just roll. It definitely should be faster and/or have a bigger hitbox though.

Agreed

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

if side b had an up and down throw option.

Now we're cookin'

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I would like fsmash to be stronger so its worth landing the move outside of 75% and omg the di mix ups would be so real if we had up and down throw from KK

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

omg the di mix ups would be so real if we had up and down throw from KK

That's exactly what I was thinking.. to my experience, I've taken many stocks 0-death using almost only koopa claw fair chains before 3.6. If we get up and down throw KK I don't see anything wrong with over centralizing KK given my old style was heavily based on that and it never grew stale or seemed broken.. we would just have to read DI for reward which is entirely fair and very rock-paper-scissors like, something PM is nearly perfecting in terms of neutral/combos/etc anyways.

I think if we all want to make a difference, we need to unite and agree heavily towards certain aspects. I would love to hear what you guys think about this simple change, I think it would make a worlds difference for our big guy. Diversity is a terrific start!

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

For KK up and dthrow ideas:

UThrow Bowser will bite the opponent and fling them up into the air with his teeth, this would be a DI mixup with the current FThrow, such that proper DI for one would allow you to follow up with an arial by using the mixup.

Dthrow, Bowser violently suplexes his opponent, this would deal heavy damage (20?) and might set up for a tech chase situation.

 

[Yallo42]

For KK up and dthrow ideas:

UThrow Bowser will bite the opponent and fling them up into the air with his teeth, this would be a DI mixup with the current FThrow, such that proper DI for one would allow you to follow up with an arial by using the mixup.

Dthrow, Bowser violently suplexes his opponent, this would deal heavy damage (20?) and might set up for a tech chase situation.

For Dthrow they can just use the animation for giga bowser's KK. I think Uthrow would make more sense as a finisher and DI mixup for Bthrow. Also, it would be nice if we could delay the throw like Wario's bite.
edit- How would Dthrow work in the air?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Dthrow, Bowser violent suplexes his opponent, this would deal heavy da

For Dthrow they can just use the animation for giga bowser's KK. I think Uthrow would make more sense as a finisher and DI mixup for Bthrow. Also, it would be nice if we could delay the throw like Wario's bite.
edit- How would Dthrow work in the air?

Dthrow in the air could be the flying slam from brawl.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

That's exactly what I was thinking.. to my experience, I've taken many stocks 0-death using almost only koopa claw fair chains before 3.6. If we get up and down throw KK I don't see anything wrong with over centralizing KK given my old style was heavily based on that and it never grew stale or seemed broken.. we would just have to read DI for reward which is entirely fair and very rock-paper-scissors like, something PM is nearly perfecting in terms of neutral/combos/etc anyways.

I think if we all want to make a difference, we need to unite and agree heavily towards certain aspects. I would love to hear what you guys think about this simple change, I think it would make a worlds difference for our big guy. Diversity is a terrific start!

I think back throw acts as a finisher big time already, I think PM should take the down throw from brawl minuses bowser (he spins and slams the opponent down and they "bounce" off the ground (not released but the actual animation bounces them then they are released) and allows for a di follow up in the sense of a back air or possibly another air grab if di'd wrong. Maybe how his down throw up or down in the air be a suicide move? And his up KK can need to be DI differently from his down KK to avoid certain follow ups. But honestly i just want to be able to follow up out of KK more, this hopeless chasing thing makes me sad.

And Yea Deff that was the thing i did and i think it was kinda rough on characters who didnt have good di (heavies, game and watch, ect) i could literally do a KK on game and watch, chase in the air and do another KK, slow the animation down and then do an up air for a quick 55% kill or on donkey kong, DDD, or bowser i could KK chain them to 70-90% and then up air. It was not broken on characters who could DI though, which i think is the issue, maybe bring KK back but instead make the ones who could not di away have a chance? I can still KK chain every character even if they di still (dk, bowser, ect). The trajectory change only made it really hard to follow up on the ones who could di well anyway. (no real fix was made)

 

[Yallo42]

Dthrow in the air could be the flying slam from brawl.

Cool idea! I never thought of that! It could be really interesting, and I don't think it would be used to suicide KO very much because bowser's edgeguard is so good. KK Fthrow>Jump KK Dthrow above a platform would be awesome

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Give me a couple weeks to study the Koopa and I'll be back with multiple versions to present maybe.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Cool idea! I never thought of that! It could be really interesting, and I don't think it would be used to suicide KO very much because bowser's edgeguard is so good. KK Fthrow>Jump KK Dthrow above a platform would be awesome

How about something a little cooler looking (like a flaming piledriver like brawl -) throw with less horizontal movement but more damage?

 

[Shellfire]

I got a random suggestion that's more me wanting the move to look cooler than an actual improvement to bowser overall: What if they increased the shield stun and knockback on fsmash and downb?

Another idea I'm throwing out for the heck of it: allow him to charge his KK for 20 or 30 frames for delaying purposes. Maybe you could make him step a little further when charged as well

 

[REInstalleD]

About the suggested KK changes: I really like them. I understand why the KB angle of KK fthrow was changed, because getting guaranteed follow-ups seems a bit un-fair (see what i did there?). Having follow-ups which are dependent on your opponents DI and your ability to read/react to it sounds like a fun, interactive mechanic where both players have agency over whether a follow-up happens.

Defensive changes: Personally, I think bowser's biggest 3.6b nerf is the delay and armor decrease of his nair. Again, I understand that when you are in the middle of comboing such a fat, meaty character, it must be very frustrating to have that broken up with such a quick move that you can't even trade with. So, to compensate for this loss, it makes sense to implement a faster tech roll and/or spot dodge, to help bowser out defensively. These changes were suggested by Deff in this thread, and I think they would help bowser get out of his opponents guaranteed grab - tech-chase - grab - repeat shenanigans while also not ruining bowser's persona as a slow, heavy tank.

Lastly, I'd like to say that the fact that our bowser conversation since 3.6b has been almost entirely concerned with viability and potential changes is kind of sad. By now, we've all come to the realization that bowser is not quite as good as he used to be, but let's not let that stop us from talking about how we can play (and win!) with the current bowser. We've always been dealing with a sub-par character, so it shouldn't be anything new. Plus, 3.6 just came out, so it's not like he's probably going to get changes anytime soon.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

About the suggested KK changes: I really like them. I understand why the KB angle of KK fthrow was changed, because getting guaranteed follow-ups seems a bit un-fair (see what i did there?). Having follow-ups which are dependent on your opponents DI and your ability to read/react to it sounds like a fun, interactive mechanic where both players have agency over whether a follow-up happens.

Defensive changes: Personally, I think bowser's biggest 3.6b nerf is the delay and armor decrease of his nair. Again, I understand that when you are in the middle of comboing such a fat, meaty character, it must be very frustrating to have that broken up with such a quick move that you can't even trade with. So, to compensate for this loss, it makes sense to implement a faster tech roll and/or spot dodge, to help bowser out defensively. These changes were suggested by Deff in this thread, and I think they would help bowser get out of his opponents guaranteed grab - tech-chase - grab - repeat shenanigans while also not ruining bowser's persona as a slow, heavy tank.

Lastly, I'd like to say that the fact that our bowser conversation since 3.6b has been almost entirely concerned with viability and potential changes is kind of sad. By now, we've all come to the realization that bowser is not quite as good as he used to be, but let's not let that stop us from talking about how we can play (and win!) with the current bowser. We've always been dealing with a sub-par character, so it shouldn't be anything new. Plus, 3.6 just came out, so it's not like he's probably going to get changes anytime soon.

Lots of characters have dumb brain dead follow ups but when bowser does its a problem? I mean i guess the follow ups are garenteed, but in all fairness and balancing, the rest of the cast should lose theirs. I could at least argue that bowser is so big and combo heavy that he should be able to combo the cast like they combo him (at least when it comes to that one move)

As for winning, I only win if i am legitamately better than my opponent or they dont know how to di or if they dont know some dumb infinite on bowser. I think thats the issue is the chain grabs to kill percent or the tech chase infinite into edge gaurd. Not sure what exactly would fix that though.

 

[FreeGamer]

Question: Why is his new F-Air an improvement? Sure it sounds nice to have to follow-up after a hit, but why would you want that on a character who is specifically designed to be terrible at going deep for edgeguards?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Question: Why is his new F-Air an improvement? Sure it sounds nice to have to follow-up after a hit, but why would you want that on a character who is specifically designed to be terrible at going deep for edgeguards?

It's not, new Fair is horrible compared to old Fair.

 

[FreeGamer]

I'd like to cast a vote for his 2.0-2.6 F-Air to return. :^)

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Give me a couple weeks to study the Koopa and I'll be back with multiple versions to present maybe.

I'll probably edit this some more later:

Spoiler

These moveset ideas are based on the following;

Goal: To translate the idea of Great Demon King Koopa into Bowser's gameplay. He's a big, fairly strong evil villain that doesn't play by the rules for the most part. He needs to be a bully.

Pros

Heavy Hitter
Decent edge guards (?)
I have no clue about anything else tbh​

Cons

Weak overall approach options (?)
Weak to pressure
Slow
​

What needs to be improved as a result (IMO)

Basic defenses
Landing Lag (?)
Approach Options​

Moveset Ideas

First of all, put him back to his old size

Grounded Normals
His Advantages once he lands a hit are pretty good. Even his shield advantages aren't that bad :L First, the reason why I suggested he go back to his old size is so he can gain some range back. Secondly, after studying some traits of other big heavy hitters in other games I came up with this:

• His Jab, D-Tilt, F-Smash, and U-Smash should be a little meatier. Make their active hitboxes linger a little longer (to about (5~6f long like hits other tilts)
• His attacks (Minus U-Tilt, U-Smash) should have some momentum/movement forward when performed.
• Hit boxes that last some time that are moving forward are more reliable than Bowser staying stationary and throwing them out.

Also, does his D-Smash work like Peaches where you reget CCing it? If not, he needs that waaayy more than Peach, imo.

Aerials
No comment here.

Specials
Fire Breath - Should Hard Knock Down on hit. Just an element of bullying your opponent and stopping his momentum.
Koopa Claw - I have few varied ideas about this move.
For the grabbing portion:
Increase the start up to about 15~20f, make it armored.
OR
(@robosteven stealing your idea) Reduce the start up to 3f~4f, and make the recovery massive on whiff.
OR
A short dash forward similar to Ganon's, but not as long.

As for the throws, I suggest the forward throw to toss the opponent forward some distance and turn the opponent around. More bully tactics. An aerial Koopa Klaw throw should throw opponents downwards similar to Lucario or at least an option to. I believe someone mentioned that before in this thread. These versions of of KK are just means to create some sense caution when coming into close quarters of Bowser haphazardly. Yea he's slow, that doesn't mean he's not dangerous.

No comment on the other two.

Throws
No Comment. (Maybe a faster Pummel rate, just emphasize the bully theme)

Basic Attributes
I believe this is where the bulk of his issues are. I find it reasonable that his jump squat is 6f, but I believe his Empty Jump recovery should be 4f like majority of the cast. His rolls should be one of the longest in terms of distance, imo. In addition, the recovery frames for his Spot Dodge and Rolls should be shortened (7~8f maybe? What's he really going to do with 12f, and 19f at the end of his dodge and rolls?) so he could make some better use of them during counter play.

Bowser seems like a character that's pretty decent on paper, from what I read from a few of you it's not translating that well in game. -Shrugs-

 

[Yallo42]

I really don't like Bower's fire breath. What if they changed Fire Breath to a chargeable fireball? If fully charged it would be large, slow and have priority over light attacks like lucario's aura bomb, but probably not as powerful. I think this would be a good way to improve his approach.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'll probably edit this some more later:

Spoiler

These moveset ideas are based on the following;

Goal: To translate the idea of Great Demon King Koopa into Bowser's gameplay. He's a big, fairly strong evil villain that doesn't play by the rules for the most part. He needs to be a bully.

Pros

Heavy Hitter
Decent edge guards (?)
I have no clue about anything else tbh​

Cons

Weak overall approach options (?)
Weak to pressure
Slow
​

What needs to be improved as a result (IMO)

Basic defenses
Landing Lag (?)
Approach Options​

Moveset Ideas

First of all, put him back to his old size

Grounded Normals
His Advantages once he lands a hit are pretty good. Even his shield advantages aren't that bad :L First, the reason why I suggested he go back to his old size is so he can gain some range back. Secondly, after studying some traits of other big heavy hitters in other games I came up with this:

• His Jab, D-Tilt, F-Smash, and U-Smash should be a little meatier. Make their active hitboxes linger a little longer (to about (5~6f long like hits other tilts)
• His attacks (Minus U-Tilt, U-Smash) should have some momentum/movement forward when performed.
• Hit boxes that last some time that are moving forward are more reliable than Bowser staying stationary and throwing them out.

Also, does his D-Smash work like Peaches where you reget CCing it? If not, he needs that waaayy more than Peach, imo.

Aerials
No comment here.

Specials
Fire Breath - Should Hard Knock Down on hit. Just an element of bullying your opponent and stopping his momentum.
Koopa Claw - I have few varied ideas about this move.
For the grabbing portion:
Increase the start up to about 15~20f, make it armored.
OR
(@robosteven stealing your idea) Reduce the start up to 3f~4f, and make the recovery massive on whiff.
OR
A short dash forward similar to Ganon's, but not as long.

As for the throws, I suggest the forward throw to toss the opponent forward some distance and turn the opponent around. More bully tactics. An aerial Koopa Klaw throw should throw opponents downwards similar to Lucario or at least an option to. I believe someone mentioned that before in this thread. These versions of of KK are just means to create some sense caution when coming into close quarters of Bowser haphazardly. Yea he's slow, that doesn't mean he's not dangerous.

No comment on the other two.

Throws
No Comment. (Maybe a faster Pummel rate, just emphasize the bully theme)

Basic Attributes
I believe this is where the bulk of his issues are. I find it reasonable that his jump squat is 6f, but I believe his Empty Jump recovery should be 4f like majority of the cast. His rolls should be one of the longest in terms of distance, imo. In addition, the recovery frames for his Spot Dodge and Rolls should be shortened (7~8f maybe? What's he really going to do with 12f, and 19f at the end of his dodge and rolls?) so he could make some better use of them during counter play.

Bowser seems like a character that's pretty decent on paper, from what I read from a few of you it's not translating that well in game. -Shrugs-

The only thing i really agreed with was changing his size back, everything else bad you ignored, his trajectories are still bad, His KB is still bad for the damage, The peach down smash would be nice, and his l cancels are still unsafe. And his armour moves were the reason he was nerfed in the first place... What needs to happen is this

1. restore his trajectories
2. fix his techs
3. make his moves actually knock you away (seriously a full charge f smash should be strong than ganons smash)
4. give him approaches
5. restore his size
6. in the future, use a balance and scales method so this doesnt happen again.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The only thing i really agreed with was changing his size back, everything else bad you ignored, his trajectories are still bad, His KB is still bad for the damage, The peach down smash would be nice, and his l cancels are still unsafe. And his armour moves were the reason he was nerfed in the first place... What needs to happen is this

1. restore his trajectories
2. fix his techs
3. make his moves actually knock you away (seriously a full charge f smash should be strong than ganons smash)
4. give him approaches
5. restore his size
6. in the future, use a balance and scales method so this doesnt happen again.

I'm just adding ideas to the pot honestly. I did look at his aerials and scratched my head a bit, but maybe the DT don't want Bowser in the air often. I didn't want to comment on them right away because I'm still trying to derive the reasons behind their decisions.

Like for example, they gave F-Smash chargeable armor. Maybe they assumed that+KB and power would be too strong in game play. Are they right? Not necesssarily, but I heard they're trying this stuff out for the first time.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'm just adding ideas to the pot honestly. I did look at his aerials and scratched my head a bit, but maybe the DT don't want Bowser in the air often. I didn't want to comment on them right away because I'm still trying to derive the reasons behind their decisions.

Like for example, they gave F-Smash chargeable armor. Maybe they assumed that+KB and power would be too strong in game play. Are they right? Not necesssarily, but I heard they're trying this stuff out for the first time.

The Fsmash KB is not high enough for the damage, committment, and lag for the move.... and even if you l cancel the ariels, they are still so slow that the opponent can hella punish you

 

[Yallo42]

Am I the only one who thinks armor is a bad mechanic in general? I wish they would tone down or remove bowser's armor and make him faster.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Am I the only one who thinks armor is a bad mechanic in general? I wish they would tone down or remove bowser's armor and make him faster.

Overdoing the mechanic is somewhat bad, personally I loved it and devoted a ton of time to learning and applying is in gameplay. It amazes me and it makes a character as big as Bowser still very viable and makes people think twice about their options. There is basically none left on Bowser unless you really know what you are doing, and even then applicable options are extremely little to none especially to a knowledgeable opponent.

I personally think for the most part, his aerials and smashes are fine and work. I honestly think the problem lies in his extremely mediocre specials, they really do not extend Bowser's character or grant any extremely useful options whatsoever. Compare to the PK boys/Zelda/Lucario, and just about every other character (even similar ones like Ganon) and he's hurting.

The way that this game is shaping up to see I'm going to go ahead and say that it's okay for Bowser to have things. It's clear that every character in PM has tons of options and depth, and Bowser should be no different. His armor used to be his crutch, but with that removed, things really need to change up. I have a lot in mind as for as specials go, I will post them soon, either in here or I may just make an entirely different thread. We'll see

 

[Crett]

Am I the only one who thinks armor is a bad mechanic in general? I wish they would tone down or remove bowser's armor and make him faster.

Bowser needs a lot of things, but I don't think speed is one of them.
I always thought he represented one of the more extreme characters in the game (huge, heavy, slow, and high powered attacks. Pretty much min-maxing), and should be balanced with that in mind

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser needs a lot of things, but I don't think speed is one of them.
I always thought he represented one of the more extreme characters in the game (huge, heavy, slow, and high powered attacks. Pretty much min-maxing), and should be balanced with that in mind

Exactly, I read that he got faster and i was like "hmmm, that is weird" and then i played him and I was like "wait so he lost power and punish ability for this small speed boost?"

I was just so highly disapointed, I thought about it, and how would a chargable fire ball that is slow, consumes projectiles based on charge (full charge sucks up anything) and gains power (and small speed) based on what he consumes? It would help his approach game and help against campy mccamp characters

 

[Yallo42]

how would a chargable fire ball that is slow, consumes projectiles based on charge (full charge sucks up anything) and gains power (and small speed) based on what he consumes? It would help his approach game and help against campy mccamp characters

I posted a very similar suggestion above. Yeah, I think that would help balance him out a lot.
For his other specials, Side B could be tweaked, but I think Down B and Up B are okay.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I posted a very similar suggestion above. Yeah, I think that would help balance him out a lot.
For his other specials, Side B could be tweaked, but I think Down B and Up B are okay.

My only gripe with side b is the trajectory change.... and the power/hitstun change.... I honestly think losing 3 LEVELS of armour would have been enough of a trade off for 4 frames of speed....All that other stuff bowser lost just left me going "why?"

Actually i just had another idea for neutral b, instead of a fire ball he charges in the conventional way, How about an oil panic type fire ball where he opens his mouth and "eats" the projectile and after he gets one, he can fire it back at twice the damage/KB and at the same speed it was launched, and it can still fire a weak/slow (4% damage, and some hit stun, no kb) fire ball with no charges by hitting the b again during the "mouth opening" animation

How does that sound? Deals with campy character and creates approaches

 

[Shellfire]

Bowser seems like a character that's pretty decent on paper, from what I read from a few of you it's not translating that well in game. -Shrugs-

Like I said: he feels like ****.

 

[Candypants]

Give sideB a tiny window of armor or make the last hitbox do mega shield damage.

Waveland out of non cancelled downb instead of hitbox.

I'll think of more later, need to leave for weeklies :3

 

[themaziest]

Give him an alternate Side-B by inputting

+

This special move ala Zangief would share the attributes of the 3.5 claw, but results in a compelling Flying Slam. 30% of damage, high knockback, mainly a smart and stylish mix-up to the fast and traditional Koopa Klaw.

Not a fix to his current weaknesses in any way, but I'd kill for this kind of move in PM.

I'm not worried about Bowser for the future, I'm sure the PMDT will find ways to help him in the next patch. Bowser in 3.6 is there to begin a transition toward an overall healthier design, even if he's trash tier for the time being (which is kind of sad, but not overwhelming).

 

[Shellfire]

This is obvious, but I just want to specifically put it here for the dialog:

Bowser niche is that of a defensive juggernaut. Most other defensive characters have a means of forcing their opponent to go on the offensive, Bowser doesn't. Simply giving Bowser such a thing would be lazy design and detract from his uniqueness, so how would we go about allowing him to do his job?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

This is obvious, but I just want to specifically put it here for the dialog:

Bowser niche is that of a defensive juggernaut. Most other defensive characters have a means of forcing their opponent to go on the offensive, Bowser doesn't. Simply giving Bowser such a thing would be lazy design and detract from his uniqueness, so how would we go about allowing him to do his job?

Making his basic defenses actually good is a start.

 

[Shellfire]

More thoughts popped into my head. Bowser's super weak to camping, right? What if while running he hard armor that ramps up. Might make the more AFK campers consider playing it a little closer and mobile than they are comfortable with. Probably not a good idea, but I'm hoping it's a nudge in the right train of thought.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

More thoughts popped into my head. Bowser's super weak to camping, right? What if while running he hard armor that ramps up. Might make the more AFK campers consider playing it a little closer and mobile than they are comfortable with. Probably not a good idea, but I'm hoping it's a nudge in the right train of thought.

That would certainly fix approaching problems, but I dont feel like bowser deserves a free pass through projectiles like that, i think maybe a bite that "eats" projectiles like oil panic or villager pocket and then spew them out as a fire ball (double damage or double the speed, but not both)

That would certainly help him not get camped against.

 

[Yallo42]

Bowser could use some tips from this guy

 

[tasteless gentleman]

No, thats giga bowser basically, i want bowser to be actually mobile

 

[Yallo42]

No, thats giga bowser basically, i want bowser to be actually mobile

lol I was just kidding. Motaro automatically reflects all projectiles, in case you didn't know.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Hmmm... i mean how could we implement a reflector on bowser?

 

[Shellfire]

That would certainly fix approaching problems, but I dont feel like bowser deserves a free pass through projectiles like that, i think maybe a bite that "eats" projectiles like oil panic or villager pocket and then spew them out as a fire ball (double damage or double the speed, but not both)

That would certainly help him not get camped against.

Part of why I'm saying it should ramp up. He only gets enough armor to power through stronger projectiles if he's covered enough distance.