Bowser Fix proposition Thread

[tasteless gentleman]

Hey guys, as we all know, bowser 3.6 is pretty much an incomplete character at this point.

So this can be a threat where we all get together and voice our ideas for changes to help better our koopa character.

Here are my three main suggestions

1. Back of shell functions like links and toon links shield (projectile defense, anti camping)
2. Fire breath replaced with fire roar or fire balls from sm4sh (appoach options) (consumes projectiles)
3. reinstate old trajectories and power
4. fix bowsers waveland and ledge grab bug
5. Give him some kind of niche that makes him unique and fun

 

[Trollinguy]

1. Im gonna be honest and say that links sheild is really annoying and feels gimmicky. It encourages camping which many people find annoying. I feel like bowser having a similar sheild will force him to camp because his approach options are so bad. I feel like better approach options are better and fit his playstyle more.

2. Pm has to be careful of copying smash 4. I think the better answer imo is making flame breath even more threatening by making it not fade away so quickly. Let it have the potential to break sheilds at a decent distance if they refuse to roll away. Idk, maybe fireballs could work wonders too, they both should help his natural. Something to help his neutral!

3. Reinstate old trajectories and increase power. (Fsmash is such a joke for it's commitment even in 3.5)

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

What I say may not be everyone's cup of tea, but just because the character is seemingly nerfed does not mean he is all of a sudden incomplete. He still has strengths and things that set him aside from the cast.. This thread is nice because it introduces ideas, and while Bowser might be due for another nifty little mechanic or what not, it wouldn't be for the sake of making him better or back to his old self more than it would be for added depth with a trade off.

This update JUST came out, and to be frank Bowser's playstyle has been changed the most ever in this version. Just stick to fundamentals and improve as much as the character will allow. He's far from the worst anyways and I trust the developers with character balance. This update has really set the bar across all the characters and PM is really turning into a true tournament game. I just feel as if it's really leaving newer players a lot to work for, but aside from that it's great

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Deff I really like your optimism and your answer, and out of respect for your amazing play style with 3.5 bowser I'll try to be as such. I agree that bowser 3.6 is not bottom of the barrel. But I'll disagree on his style has not changed but more a piece of it removed. Bowser 3.5 was 10-15 spot maybe. Tournament viable yes but unlikely but fun to play and watch. 3.6 bowser lost a huge amount of punish game in my opinion due to trajectory changes. And bowser never could really approach outside of amazing wave land skill. And a good campy player with an equally campy character shuts 3.5 down and mangles 3.6. The speed increase and size reduction didn't really help. And overall I would say he got more nerfs than buffs. And I do understand that this is new. I saw odds, American bowser, and others change their mains up or start switching more frequently. That strikes me as a red flag. Anyways before I get too far off track, deff if bowser were to get buffed (he should, he got more nerfs than buffs last patch and lost a lot of his standout attributes) what would you like to see?

 

[RomeDogg]

I like his fire breath, it has fast multiple hits when jump cancelled and is a staple of his edge guard game. Its part of why he is one of the best edge guarding characters in PM. A buff to it would be alright as long as its functionality is the same imo. I would hate to see it change to a completely different move like fire balls.

Furthermore he is still a beast when played well/correctly. I think just tweaks to several moves to make him slightly better all around would be all they need to do. Plus they should give him his side b chomp back from Melee. Then he would be top tier for sure lol. Also maybe they could make his side-b while holding taunt his brawls version but idk if that will even help or hurt.

 

[Narelex]

Me and Odds play often and the guy had been trying harder then anyone to make Bowser work. The bugged perfect waveland doesn't help but armour was a crutch that protected him against a lot of characters.

Atm he's bigger slower and doesn't have as much kill power as he should compared to the rest of the cast. (why is Fox better at killing then Bowser atm?) Specifically as any really fast character with decent grabs or juggles he's very easy to 0-death atm.

I could see some improvements like maybe a new attack or improved techroll.

3.6b is the groundwork for the new Bowser design. Now we just need to sow the seeds.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Rome, I agree I really like his fire breath as it is now, if it could break a shield then it would be perfect, but perhaps im thinking more like "I cant approach if I have to" and I agree that this bowser is good for the "ground work" portion, but there is definitely something missing Is all, to separate him from the rest of the "heavy hitters" or the whole cast... or just get him out of the 15-20 tier spot... its just not viable and definitely not fun to get beat by a patch update

 

[Trollinguy]

Bowser should have the killing power that he looks like he has.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

"I think just tweaks to several moves to make him slightly better all around would be all they need to do."

Rome, i noticed you said this, several moves make it sound like bowser is far from viable even if minor tweaks and yes the power boost would make sense

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Deff I really like your optimism and your answer, and out of respect for your amazing play style with 3.5 bowser I'll try to be as such. If bowser were to get buffed (he should, he got more nerfs than buffs last patch and lost a lot of his standout attributes) what would you like to see?

Thanks a lot, I truly appreciate it. Though it may not be the answer you're looking for:

Improved techroll

This is the single most important buff that Bowser could receive. It would really prevent him from getting screwed over in simple tech chase situations, something that costs us way too much due to our character being able to get combo'd so easily (especiallyyyy into kill setups)

I'm still mostly stuck on the idea that just like any other character, Bowser does get rewarded by smart, safe gameplay and avoiding as much unwinnable situations as possible. Even with all the original armor and attacks he still struggled in this aspect due to his options/slow speed/large size.

What we need to realize is that Bowser is now smaller and faster, addressing the issue exactly. The weird thing though is that it only benefits and compliments top-level execution, something that, to be fair, is not accessible to just about anyone, not even myself.

I've been pouring countless amount of hours into PM Bowser since 2.5, and I've enjoyed it the whole way through. I will admit that while I've pushed personal boundaries with the character I never thought I could achieve, their is still tons of potential that I feel can be pushed out of Bowser just the way that he is.

I don't want to get into it too much, but just remember that buffs/nerfs/changes shouldn't be the driving force in your passion for this game. Melee has been out for 14 years and to this day there are still people taking sets with Link/YL, Yoshi, Pikachu, day by day the metagame advances even in its permanent state. We need to learn to take the good and the bad and work our hardest to be complacent and solid. No excuses, no relying on updates to validate our efforts.

Character mechanics are great and all, but in the end of the day it's things like dash dance/spot dodge/tech roll that will make Bowser a stronger character in high level play, even a frame or two advantage goes a long way for someone like him. It's all about improvement in the neutral. In the end of the day though, to be honest I rely on a secondary. It wasn't always like that, but regardless of the state of Bowser is simply is just very smart to at least have one other character with radically different properties to gain an edge..

 

[Narelex]

Thanks a lot, I truly appreciate it. Though it may not be the answer you're looking for:

This is the single most important buff that Bowser could receive. It would really prevent him from getting screwed over in simple tech chase situations, something that costs us way too much due to our character being able to get combo'd so easily (especiallyyyy into kill setups)

I'm still mostly stuck on the idea that just like any other character, Bowser does get rewarded by smart, safe gameplay and avoiding as much unwinnable situations as possible. Even with all the original armor and attacks he still struggled in this aspect due to his options/slow speed/large size.

What we need to realize is that Bowser is now smaller and faster, addressing the issue exactly. The weird thing though is that it only benefits and compliments top-level execution, something that, to be fair, is not accessible to just about anyone, not even myself.

I've been pouring countless amount of hours into PM Bowser since 2.5, and I've enjoyed it the whole way through. I will admit that while I've pushed personal boundaries with the character I never thought I could achieve, their is still tons of potential that I feel can be pushed out of Bowser just the way that he is.

I don't want to get into it too much, but just remember that buffs/nerfs/changes shouldn't be the driving force in your passion for this game. Melee has been out for 14 years and to this day there are still people taking sets with Link/YL, Yoshi, Pikachu, day by day the metagame advances even in its permanent state. We need to learn to take the good and the bad and work our hardest to be complacent and solid. No excuses, no relying on updates to validate our efforts.

Character mechanics are great and all, but in the end of the day it's things like dash dance/spot dodge/tech roll that will make Bowser a stronger character in high level play, even a frame or two advantage goes a long way for someone like him. It's all about improvement in the neutral. In the end of the day though, to be honest I rely on a secondary. It wasn't always like that, but regardless of the state of Bowser is simply is just very smart to at least have one other character with radically different properties to gain an edge..

At the very least getting his perfect waveland unbugged will be a huge help to him.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bugged wave land? what do you mean?

Also i would like his thing where he will randomly shoot off the ledge immediately after grabbing it fixed by either making it controllable or gone entirely and actually I do like deffs answer on the techs. The fact that I can't get away from characters with good tech chases doesn't help like metaknight

 

[Shellfire]

It might just be me being so accustomed to 3.5 Bowser, but my main problem is that the current Bowser just feels awful. Emphasis on the word feel. Playing Bowser like running with a leg that's an inch longer than the other.

 

[The Party]

Bowser should have the killing power that he looks like he has.

I mean, does he not? His fsmash kills most characters at like, fifty.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I mean, does he not? His fsmash kills most characters at like, fifty.

Not anymore, he still does damage but the KB is much less, i would say less than alot of moves that are less committable. A fully charged smash attack would throttle jiggly puff at 0%. now, i have to hit it at about 30-40% to kill her. This is on the lightest character in game. falcon easily survives at 60-70%. Its much worse for such a committing move and dont get me started on the sour spots or the down smash... or the upsmash.... or the uptilt... or upair... or anything

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Before you guys start making suggestions to change his kit, think about a concept that will fit the character Bowser.
Who is Bowser and what mold is he designated in the cast of PM. Describe in simplest terms what Bowser should be and what people should expect from him. (It can be as simple as he's a big turtle monster that wrecks you.)

Then from here try to find every single thing (everything that involves pressing a button/moving the stick(s) that makes Bowser do something you should know about it) you can about Bowser and observe them as a whole, then explore every possible solution that would match your defined idea of Bowser.

And there's the start of reworking Bowser. Just my 5 cents.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Before you guys start making suggestions to change his kit, think about a concept that will fit the character Bowser.
Who is Bowser and what mold is he designated in the cast of PM. Describe in simplest terms what Bowser should be and what people should expect from him. (It can be as simple as he's a big turtle monster that wrecks you.)

Then from here try to find every single thing (everything that involves pressing a button/moving the stick(s) that makes Bowser do something you should know about it) you can about Bowser and observe them as a whole, then explore every possible solution that would match your defined idea of Bowser.

And there's the start of reworking Bowser. Just my 5 cents.

I love this thought and i think this is why i dont like 3.6 very much, bowser is suppose to be a big, mean, monster, tank, slow, fire breathing creature. That said, i really think the falcon and shiek nerfs put bowser at a good spot (if 3.5) was still his kit, now bowser feels... funny, weak, slooooooow, and small. The scary part of bowser play was when a bowser player inched his way towards you and blocked you off, now... i dont really see that intimidation factor, plus he still gets comboed just as hard just now he has less weight (more hitstun) and less range (less follow ups)

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Yup. People play characters for how they feel and play, not stats.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Exactly, he should be tanky, big, and deceptively fast (at times), he could use an approach option or two though

 

[FreeGamer]

Giving him his F-Air back would be an excellent start.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

After i heard peoples opinions, how do i add a poll to this thread or will i need to make a new thread?

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Giving him his F-Air back would be an excellent start.

3.6 Bowser's staple move is his fair.

Things don't kill instantly because you need to take the effort to follow up lol

 

[tasteless gentleman]

3.6 Bowser's staple move is his fair.

Things don't kill instantly because you need to take the effort to follow up lol

Up throw, fair, fair, fair is now a thing because of it (if they dont di right lol) and falcon abuses his fair way more than any bowser player i know

 

[robosteven]

I'd like to see him get a frame-1 super-small-grabbox command throw.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'd like to see him get a frame-1 super-small-grabbox command throw.

You trolling? 1 frame command grab is broken

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You trolling? 1 frame command grab is broken

Yea, he's joking. Frame 1 Command Grabs are common among grapplers(?, I personally only know Vice's) in KoF. They start at Frame 1, great for punishing at close range, but have some abysmal recovery when whiffed. Smash ain't built for that though lmao.

 

[robosteven]

Yea, he's joking.

I actually wasn't. ;_;

I know he doesn't need it, but I'd like to see more traditional fighter grappler elements added to Bowser. It doesn't have to be frame-1, but I've thought for a while giving him some form of the Brawl/Sm4sh body slam would be beautiful. If he had a really tiny frame-1 grab that had solid reward but was really REALLY difficult to land, then it both wouldn't be broken and would be useful in some close-range scenarios.

Mostly, it's just a change I'd like to see because I think it would make him more fun.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

It's an interesting concept to play around with, but I feel like that would be waaaayyy too strong in Smash. People already complained about Sheik's grabs. :T

 

[tasteless gentleman]

How about some form of instant punish beside Up b oos? Peach has a crazy good down smash and it comes out on frame 3 (thats pretty game breaking for a move that deals at least 24% in 2 hits (can hit more if they di wrong and put you in the upper 50%)

Just some form of punish or maybe make up B have its original power and damage?

 

[Julls]

Imo, the knockback of F air and F smash should be buffed even if just a little tweak, the recovery needs a slight turn up more vertical, koopa claw needs a little more range, and if possible, the dash attack could use a slightly faster recovery. This last one I know will never happen because it may be considered copying from smash 4, is changing bowser's "running" animation from skidding on the floor to actual running with his legs of course. Thats the one thing that has bothered me the most, like he was legit running in super mario 64, so i never understood why he would just skid around since melee up until smash 4. Sorry for going into a little rant but its just...wrong.

 

[robosteven]

It's an interesting concept to play around with, but I feel like that would be waaaayyy too strong in Smash. People already complained about Sheik's grabs. :T

Considering how small this theoretical grabbox would be, I don't think it would be too good. Even making it frame-3 (y'know, just a fast grab like traditional grapplers) would be fine. Idealistically I'd just see him getting the body slam back with properties changed to make it more balanced.

Like, the grabbox would be small enough that if you got grabbed by it you deserve every second of punish you get from it.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

If anything he needs safer options, his gameplay changes have already done away with all his noob friendly free options. That's not gonna really shake things up, and is not worth putting the time into compared to a stronger solution for all of us. It's cool, but yeah. That sounds more like a want than a need

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I would like to see Bowser buffed the following ways:

1. Even more improved DD, this will go great with Silent Doom's new running animation.

2. Make KK work by either:
a. Making it impossible to DI the FThrow and avoid a followup of sorts.
b. Or the one I personally like, make the BThrow MUCH, MUCH more potent, making it a viable throw mixu at low percents
Currently, with KK, if at lowpercents, you DI for FThrow, and then at higher percents once FThrow will no longer link into a arial you DI for BThrow not much will happen to you.

3. Make FSmash at least 5 frames faster and instantly break shields.

4. Give UAir it's old kill power back, buff Bowser's kill power in general.

And finally the most important changes

Give Bowser much better tech options and a good spotdodge.

 

[robosteven]

That sounds more like a want than a need

this is a reminder that we're discussing a character in a mod of a video game

almost every single post in this board is a want

but actually I do understand what you're saying. Honestly I think making fortress-hogging easier a la 2.5(?) would be a pretty big help, as well as rebuffing fair. Like, rebuffing fair would probably be the biggest fix he could get right now.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I would like to see Bowser buffed the following ways:

1. Even more improved DD, this will go great with Silent Doom's new running animation.

2. Make KK work by either:
a. Making it impossible to DI the FThrow and avoid a followup of sorts.
b. Or the one I personally like, make the BThrow MUCH, MUCH more potent, making it a viable throw mixu at low percents
Currently, with KK, if at lowpercents, you DI for FThrow, and then at higher percents once FThrow will no longer link into a arial you DI for BThrow not much will happen to you.

3. Make FSmash at least 5 frames faster and instantly break shields.

4. Give UAir it's old kill power back, buff Bowser's kill power in general.

And finally the most important changes

Give Bowser much better tech options and a good spotdodge.

whoa instant shield break would probably be too much, I land that move on shields all the time, maybe make it safer on shield but for sure not break stuff

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

whoa instant shield break would probably be too much, I land that move on shields all the time, maybe make it safer on shield but for sure not break stuff

And why not?? You should be punished for having to shield that move.

 

[Yallo42]

I don't think f smash should be an instant shield break and it wouldn't be useful anyway because people will just roll. It definitely should be faster and/or have a bigger hitbox though.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

this is a reminder that we're discussing a character in a mod of a video game

almost every single post in this board is a want

but actually I do understand what you're saying. Honestly I think making fortress-hogging easier a la 2.5(?) would be a pretty big help, as well as rebuffing fair. Like, rebuffing fair would probably be the biggest fix he could get right now.

I guess I understand that, but I feel like things that will go further in a high-skill environment is the most important aspect right now. Changes that might not necessarily be "cool" or "fun" but benefit a hardcore tournament player like myself and many other serious Bowser players that really go through it.

Now that I think about it, after playing all day at a tournament I'm going to have to cave in on my optimism and flat out say that Bowser needs a better KK forward throw.. like now

 

[Tomaster]

I vote for his side b in the air being like lucario's. I dont play boozer so i may be off but it seems like a cool idea.

 

[Yallo42]

I vote for his side b in the air being like lucario's. I dont play boozer so i may be off but it seems like a cool idea.

Hitting with aerial side b would have to make him float then, which would look weird imo. But it would be cool if side b had an up and down throw option.