Boosted Firebreath Edgeguard

[B!squick]

Okay, so I'm working on getting kill percents written down (working on that for ya Sliq) for MK... I get bored so I start messing around with Bowser on the stage I was on, Battlefield. I start playing around with things to do on the ledge. Rising DAir wasn't as effective as I had hoped. While it does trip, it also knocks them away from you and FAir can actually kill while Klaw takes care of anyone wanting to shield your ledge attack and grab you.

Then I did the jump directly from the ledge, touched the joystick away from the ledge and sat on the platform creating a nice wall of fire. The ledge still looked gettable though...

Then I tried it again and ended up boosting the Firebreath just off stage. I thought, ****, I wonder if I can do that consistantly. Many botched attempts later I came to the conclusion that it has be frame perfect at the appex of the jump. Too early or too late your momemtum carries you on stage. Time it right and all that momemtum that would have carried you on stage takes you off it in a really cool looking gimp.

I'm gonna play around with this a bit more. Looks like that kill percent thread will just have to wait. :/

 

[SSD]

this sounds totally awesome. I'm going to take a look at it as well.

 

[B!squick]

Lol, I'm starting to get the timing down. I have to wonder about the possible combos since you keep your second jump when you do this! :D

 

[Seagull Joe]

vids? i'd like to see this to understand this better.

 

[B!squick]

I can save the replay but I'd need someone to record it for me.

Also, someone said that it is called a "wave-bounce" which, being a Bowser main, I have no experience or techincal knowledge in it. It works with Charizard too. He can even do it with his SideB at any point during the jump.

I can try and get it on a reply and send it to you?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I can record it if you need, sounds cool.
Unless I'm mistaken.

 

[B!squick]

Awesome. How do I send stuff to people? O.o

 

[nash123]

Awesome. How do I send stuff to people? O.o

Add their wii code and friend code, both of you gotta do it though.

 

[B!squick]

****, I can't do that right now. x_x

 

[MrEh]

Sounds sexy.

Whenever you get a video up, I'd love to see it.

 

[Atria]

This sounds quite interesting. A video would help though because I am having trouble visualizing this technique. I'm looking forward to it nonetheless though.

Do you think there could be any other applications with this technique or do you think it is only good for gimping people ATM?

 

[B!squick]

Okay, I found out from the thread I made on the tactical board that its something other chars have been doing for a while, or at least very similar. They jump, maybe SideB a projectile in the same direction, then immediately flick the sticknl in the other direction and shift all the momentum that opposite way. Or something like that. I don't know. I play Bowser and as far as I know, he doesn't have any tricks like that... or at least he didn't.

Sadly, I really only see this being applied as an edge guard, as you get a noticably higher and further jump for the ledge.

Though logically it could work on and off stage too, not sure how effective it could be though.

 

[MrEh]

You mean you're doing a reverse fire breath?

 

[B!squick]

You mean you're doing a reverse fire breath?

Yes, but it's not that simple. Because not only was I able to reverse it, but also the momentum of the jump.

I can send it to you if you want to see for yourself.

 

[Psymon]

Sounds awesome, just make a small video guide and we'll be on our way =D

 

[B!squick]

Well, the footage I have so far is just a replay of me trying to do it in a 3:00 span, lol.

11 times if you're curious.

 

[Atria]

Okay, I found out from the thread I made on the tactical board that its something other chars have been doing for a while, or at least very similar. They jump, maybe SideB a projectile in the same direction, then immediately flick the sticknl in the other direction and shift all the momentum that opposite way. Or something like that. I don't know. I play Bowser and as far as I know, he doesn't have any tricks like that... or at least he didn't.

Sadly, I really only see this being applied as an edge guard, as you get a noticably higher and further jump for the ledge.

Though logically it could work on and off stage too, not sure how effective it could be though.

Oh! I think this technique you are doing is called 'wave bouncing'. First you build up momentum in one direction in the air. (I think koopa hopping could help assist making the 'bounce' effect greater.) Once the time is right or when you want to wave bounce your attack in the other direction while you are still in the air moving forward, use your B move (I'll use the neutral B move in this case.) to initiate the attack and then I think that before the attack animation starts, you have to flick the control stick in the opposite direction you're facing immediately before the attack comes out so you can get this 'bounce' effect when your character faces the the other direction. Not all special moves can be wave bounced for all characters however eg. Bowser's Down B, ^B and >B can't be wave bounced. His neutral B can be wave bounced however. Also, wave bouncing doesn't benefit everyone, even if some of their special moves can be wave bounced. I think it could be enough to scare away the opponent though, it depends.

Wave bouncing is good for Bowser's fire as it can be used to mind game people because...well...it's very random. Not many opponents can predict it because you are moving at full speed away from them (Just assume this. You don't have to be at full speed to wave bounce BTW. The bounce effect depends on your character's momentum.) and then all of a sudden, you turn around and unleash the fire breath on them in the opposite direction straight into their face or not depending on how far you are away from them. If you miss however, there's a good chance that the opponent may flinch at this site and make them jump + move away. The point still remains clear however: It's good for mind games.

I've been practicing wave bouncing recently and I've got the timing down perfectly for the Neutral B input. (Applies to all characters who can wave bounce their neutral B because the timing IMO is pretty much the same for everyone so I don't find it hard to wave bounce anyone's neutral B move.) I find wave bouncing the >B input a little bit harder to do than the Neutral B one and then I find doing the down B input even harder than the >B one. Although like I said earlier, I'm still practicing it. Least I can do it successfully with all neutral B moves now! =D

 

[B!squick]

... ****, it's a good thing you wrote the book on wave bouncing then! So it's simply a case of old info, different appilcation... I think I can still claim half a dicovery point on that, lol.

So how's Bowser's Firebreath Wave Bounce? Good, bad, nice edge guard maybe, or something silly we'll never use like Ganon's Earthquake thing?

 

[Hobobloke]

I am familiar with wavebouncing the fire. I'm unsure how good it is to gimp with but on stage it is great to punish rolls, all you do is dash towards them jump then if they roll behnd you just wavebounce it backwards and you have them stuck close to you in the fire, so if its a character that can't DI in to you and punish they will take a decemt amount of damage.

 

[B!squick]

Dude, I just tested it out some more and I think this would make a fantastic gimp! It may lack the power of a BAir and even a FAir for that matter, but it has so much range and I can't imagine how impossible it would be to try to Air Dodge.

Plus, it looks cool to suddenly fly off stage belching flames and whatnot. And what is Bowser, if not cool?

EDIT: Also, I have better footage now that I know how to do it.

 

[Atria]

... ****, it's a good thing you wrote the book on wave bouncing then! So it's simply a case of old info, different appilcation... I think I can still claim half a dicovery point on that, lol.

So how's Bowser's Firebreath Wave Bounce? Good, bad, nice edge guard maybe, or something silly we'll never use like Ganon's Earthquake thing?

I wrote a book on it...? O_o

Anyways. Well for starters, since you can only wave bounce in the air, I think the bounce effect depends upon the character's horizontal air movement speed. Well, most of us here should know that Bowser is in around the A tier for air speed so the bounce should be fairly good if Bowser is moving at full speed. Like I said earlier too, Koopa hopping could help assist you to reach this full speed because it keeps Bowser in the air. Although, you can alter the bounce distance depending on how fast you are moving in the air at the time. This applies for all characters.

It shouldn't really matter how good a character's wave bounce is distance wise though. Like for example, you are going to wave bounce Bowser's fire breath to catch your opponent in the attack unexpectedly while you are moving at full speed. What would happen to you if you accidentally wave bounced past them and didn't catch them in the attack at all? Punishment is bound to occur here. So be careful when wave bouncing attacks as you don't want to go past your opponent while you are attacking as it will allow them to land any attack of their choice on you which is pretty bad. Although, you shouldn't abuse wave bouncing a lot with Bowser. Only use it to catch people off guard as it's main purpose is to mind game people.

Oh, I also forgot to mention earlier that wave bouncing can be used either defensively or offensively. Eg. Pikachu can wave bounce thunder to create walls of lightning while he remains behind it as a form of defense. With Bowser, I already told you, but I think that one can be classified as a form of offense.

I can give you a link to wavebouncing if you want. It should explain more about in there and how to do it. Also, it should have some videos in there.

 

[B!squick]

Sweet, that link would probably help alot. Wave bouncing is as foreign on the Bowser board as an even match up (lol Lucas being "60/40").

Also, ledge guarding opinion please? I tried it normal jump, Klaw Jump, and ledge jump, and while I could see it being a useful mind game with the first two, I could also see being both a mind game and an epic gimp from the ledge. Like I said, it has range and it looks cool, what's not to like?

 

[Hobobloke]

VIDS MAN!

So do you remain on the stage when you wavebounce from the ledgejump or fall of it?

 

[B!squick]

Depends on how much umph you get out of it, but almost all of the time I was able to wave bounce off stage.

I can, like, send you the replay? It's 3 mins of me trying it out on BF.

 

[Atria]

Here are 3 links on wave bouncing. Do what as you please with them:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191605

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152409

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152815

Links 1 and 3 have videos and provide examples of how to use them too I THINK. However, the second one doesn't have any. I'll try answer any questions if you still have any on wave bouncing.

 

[B!squick]

Wave bouncing the Firebreath, yay or nay as a viable edge guard?

 

[Hobobloke]

I'd imagine if you fall off stage when doing it you would have to release b rather soon so you could recover which means it couldn't be sustaimed for very long at all thus not very viable.

 

[Atria]

Wave bouncing the Firebreath, yay or nay as a viable edge guard?

It's good as an edge guard when you use it at the very edge of the stage when your opponent is trying to grab the ledge, however, wave bouncing into your opponent off the stage with fire breath kinda makes it easier for them to return to stage IMO because while you are recovering from ending lag, they can return to the stage easily without any fear of retaliation and can probably proceed to intercept you from getting back on to the stage once they get back on.

I would use a wave bounced fire breath as a form of offense on the opponent while on the stage because most of the time when I use it, they don't expect it coming and I can pile a fair bit of damage on them depending if they are good DI'ing out of the attack or not.

 

[B!squick]

I'd imagine if you fall off stage when doing it you would have to release b rather soon so you could recover which means it couldn't be sustaimed for very long at all thus not very viable.

Ah, but you keep your second jump and with a sweet spot I was able to recover from quite low below the stage. Even without the sweet spot I could Firebreath for as long as I needed to really.

 

[B!squick]

It's good as an edge guard when you use it at the very edge of the stage when your opponent is trying to grab the ledge, however, wave bouncing into your opponent off the stage with fire breath kinda makes it easier for them to return to stage IMO because while you are recovering from ending lag, they can return to the stage easily without any fear of retaliation and can probably proceed to intercept you from getting back on to the stage once they get back on.

I would use a wave bounced fire breath as a form of offense on the opponent while on the stage because most of the time when I use it, they don't expect it coming and I can pile a fair bit of damage on them depending if they are good DI'ing out of the attack or not.

It has more range then a ledge hopped BAir and the window for actually hitting the opponent wouldn't be very big anyway. But as I said in a previous post, you keep your second jump and Fortress has more lift than people give it credit. I can't say anything for cerntain though until I actually get a chance to try it out.

And who's afraid of a fight for the ledge? Never forget Fortress has invincibility good sir.

EDIT: Blarg, I fail at editing my own posting. x_x

 

[Jim Morrison]

I can't see how this guards the edge, because you jump off pretty high. I'll try it out before juding though
Just did it, and I stick with it. It only works on opponents recovering high, and it doesn't do much to them, just like 4% extra damage. You have to quit firebreath quite soon to still recover. However, you can use Firebreath to fire someone by doing exactly this, but with a turnaround B as well.

 

[Hobobloke]

I'd imagine just standing at the edge and using the fire would be more effective but i haven't tried wavebouncing as an edgeguard so i can't judge it yet.

 

[Atria]

It has more range then a ledge hopped BAir and the window for actually hitting the opponent wouldn't be very big anyway. But as I said in a previous post, you keep your second jump and Fortress has more lift than people give it credit. I can't say anything for cerntain though until I actually get a chance to try it out.

And who's afraid of a fight for the ledge? Never forget Fortress has invincibility good sir.

In my last post, I did mention that Bowser should be able to grab the ledge after he wave bounces fire breath. However, while you are recovering from ending land from the attack, that's where the opponent has the chance to return to the stage. Once they quickly climb back on to the stage, (They have to do this because it's near impossible to edgehog Bowser because of his ^B move.) they'll wait for you to grab the ledge. Once you grab the ledge, there's a chance your opponent may be able to keep intercepting your get ups back onto the stage which is bad. Like if you ledge hop, they can just jump and use an aerial to hit you back out. If you roll on to the stage, they'll hit you as your character tries to stand up after Bowser's invincibility wears off. You should get the picture by now.

I can't see how this guards the edge, because you jump off pretty high. I'll try it out before juding though
Just did it, and I stick with it. It only works on opponents recovering high, and it doesn't do much to them, just like 4% extra damage. You have to quit firebreath quite soon to still recover. However, you can use Firebreath to fire someone by doing exactly this, but with a turnaround B as well.

I was JUST about to discuss about the damage output for this, but you beat me to it.

This I agree with BTW.

 

[B!squick]

I knew it wasn't a good damage dealer, I said that many posts ago. I said it had range and it looked cool, that's the only major advantage I claimed it to have. Also, once Bowser reaches the ledge, he's recovered. UpBing back up to the ledge gives you near constant invincibility and if they stand too close you can do a rising Klaw since a common tactic here is to shield the ledge attack and then grab.