Big/Tough/Slow characters. My thoughts on Bowser.

[tehtawd]

Hi Bowser mains!

My name is Todd and back around 2006 I was known as ~Shin_Ganondorf~, the author of ~How to wield the triforce of power~; I have not been keeping up with Smash that much (dat real life tho!) but I was pondering something the other day while playing my new main (Bowser [Because:RIP Ganondorf]). I was wondering about 'speedy characters' in Smash and thought I would come here to roll the thoughts around at the boards. Disclaimer—I’m a nice guy, my aim is not to be rude or offend anyone so try to keep the flames down if you disagree. Let’s be respectful, the smasher community to me has always been friendlier than other communities, and that’s what I love about you guys! also, I'm sorry if my post is scatterbrained, I do that a lot.


My thoughts were.

Are successful characters in fighting games the ones who can zone others and attack without punishment? And if this is the case, how does a heavy character combat this ‘effectively’ to make them viable?

Perhaps the slower characters are at a larger disadvantage than I previously thought ... I could pick a faster character and have more control over zoning and picking at my opponent with less punishment. This would allow more opportunity to explore the game I feel. (though this wouldn’t be my style)


One thing I have learned over the years is that we gamers can repeat a task almost perfectly over, and over again with very little error. If I am caught up into the first attack I could be losing my entire stock because of the lack of options a heavy character has to combat swifter characters. If I am a heavy character and catch my opponent in my first attack, does it allow me the same benefit of follow-up? Would that follow-up be fun?

I then thought

Well the trade-off for picking that light character is I would die easier when I make a mistake. But wait ... if I'm a faster character ... don't I get punished less for making mistakes because I recover faster? And isn’t the slower character at some disadvantage for collecting meaningful damage on that error? Do slower characters enable faster characters to get away with more errors because they can’t keep up?

This got me looking around at other iterations of slow+powerful characters in fighting games and noting a lack of representation in tournaments of the heavier guys. I of course wan’t to fix this. Yay excitement!

... If Bowser is supposed to be bigger, stronger and tougher than smaller characters. Wouldn't their jabs and some other pokes not affect him? Yes, the creators of this game has made it so bowser shrugs off some moves at lower percentages. How has this affected our ability to tackle those lighter characters? Am I a minority with suggesting this addition to Bowsers kit has not helped significantly in tournament level play? I sure think it could be looked at and improved.


I looked at a few threads making suggestions for Bowser changes to make him more tournament viable and I wanted to kind of join in that conversation as well (luigi taunt).


Looking specifically at what the creators have already started on is a good way to save Nintendo money. Don’t ask them to make something new, just tweak something they already have. This takes less hours of development.

Suggestion/thought 1) When Bowser is shrugging off attacks, do not slow him down. Add in a specific sound to show it’s working. This will take away opponents ability to manage the hit-stun with timing as they can see the armor. (this is mostly seen through multi-jab attacks before the finisher). This would be easily implemented by just deleting the coding which slows bowser down when his bowser armor is activating. Assumptively this could take less than an hour to implement with data search tools by developers.

Another suggestion: Perhaps allow Bowser Armor to ignore more attacks than it currently does (very difficult to decide which ones because this could potentially take away too much from a vs bowser match)

Big suggestions incoming (CHOOSE ONE)

Allow Bowser Armor to...

A) Remain active at all times (easily done with editing code)
or
B) Normal + Activate again at upper rage percentages (work needed: a little more difficult but still within an hour or less to be implemented)


Biggest suggestions…

Allow Bowser’s fire-breath beginning animation to act as a counter. The counter would be the fire from his mouth acting specifically as a knockback with little to no damage and no killing potential. If an enemy is quick enough Bowser cannot counter an assault, allowing fast characters to effectively still combo. If bowser does not time the firebreath counter correctly, it is just a normal, laggy, fire-breath which may allow bowser to be punished. This is another ‘defensive’ tool, not for great damage or killing.

In terms of developer hours. Perhaps a day? Maybe several? Hit-boxes will need to be put in, counter-coding would need to be used from another character and implemented at specific frames (it may be easier to just make new coding). Sound would have to be recorded, knockback value’s tested. This could take 4-hours or a week depending upon coding of theirs I have never seen.

In closing …

I will be clear. I am not a fan of hitting your enemy once and then feeling free to take them from zero to death. Part of my love for smash brothers is when you hit the guy once, you don’t let your muscle memory take it from there, you still have to THINK because the enemy has options. I personally believe because it is easy to juggle/zone/poke heavier characters it disallows them tourney-worthy status. Some may disagree with my entire post here, but, I’m here to ‘think’ about it and come up with idea’s. I am not coming to firm conclusions, only asking the forums to turn this rubiks cube with me.

Should I be looking elsewhere for a fighting game that enables the heavy characters to contend? I have rolled the thought in my head more than once maybe 'Smash' doesn’t know how to treat their heavy character’s. Isn’t E-Honda popular and viable? Maybe the folks that did street fighter did it right. Is Ziegfried and Astiroth viable? Maybe those guys did it right. Maybe Aganos from that Killer Instinct is built to compete ... who knows.

I honestly don’t know. But I'm always thinking ...

I don’t want every character to be the same, but, I’m tired of seeing the same story: Speed wins.

 

[MagiusNecros]

All I got from this is buff tough guy and I agree one hundred percent.

Problem is TG is knockback based and to get any leverage out of that they need to decrease knockback by like 50% to Bowser alone using a special instance. And I don't think they have the gall to make such a change like that. The only big changes that happened were simple like make Klaw dumb, Charizard got big knockback changes on throws and Wectoring got removed.

Bowser Armor actually is active all the time, the thing is what it works on just DOES NOT WORK at all. If it does only in like 3 matchups.

I think the best change to make TG in working order is simply to change it from knockback based to damage based.

In a perfect world you'd need to use an attack that is 5% or more to break Bowser's natural armor. But I would also settle for Gordo Armor properties as well. Which is 2% and up.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That connection you made with faster characters was pretty good. They die faster, so you shouldn't make mistakes. But at the same time, their options are safer by design, so the weakness isn't exploitable. It is a very classic conundrum with fighting games. I wouldn't do too many comparisons with the average 2D fighter, though. In smash, characters have literal weight that dictates how far a move sends them, instead of having more "health". But in this same game, it has the adverse effect of making combos work for longer, since the heavyweight stays closer to their attacker.

Allow me to define some Smash mechanics that are integral to the arguments that will be presented in this thread. For instance, the relationship between hitstun and knockback is direct. More knockback means more hitstun. No exceptions. Heavyweights suffer less knockback, thus less hitstun, so we should be comboed less in theory. However, any move without a 0° knockback angle or Sakurai angle (361°) has the effect of putting the victim into the air. They must land, and characters suffer their hard landing lag values upon landing from a weak jab or projectile. For lightweight characters, this is 4 landing lag frames. For Bowser, this is uniquely 6 landing lag frames. The extra 2 effectively eats the two or so frame advantage he might have earned just by virtue of being heavy and not receiving as much hitstun. So jab followups and projectiles still prove to be fatal to Bowser despite being heavy.

Regarding typical combos (mostly throws for Smash 4's case) there's more to it than just weight. Namely fall speed. Most heavyweights also have fast fall speed. When sent vertically by any attack, falling speed kicks in immediately upon release, like gravity. Apparently Sakurai never finished Physics 101 to know that gravitational acceleration is common among objects, otherwise every character would have the same falling speed except jigglypuff, who is a balloon. But anyway, Bowser's fall speed is just average. It helps us double jump away from some vertical combo followups, and also makes it so we don't survive as long as DK or Dedede vertically, because they have a better combination of weight and fall speed. In general, for surviving vertical kill moves, fast fall speed is preferable. For escaping vertical combos, slow fall speed is preferable. And good DI helps any situation if you know what you're doing.

For Bowser's Tough Guy armor, it's tricky.

I think the best change to make TG in working order is simply to change it from knockback based to damage based.

Helps us with most jabs and projectiles sure, but presents a new problem. Multihit moves that deal damage in ~1% increments now no longer work on Bowser. That's quite a few multijabs, aerials, specials, recovery moves and even smash attacks that no longer work on us. As much as I would like never getting killed by ZSS' Up B and laughing because all she has left to kill is Flip Kick attack, it's just not fair to other characters that have to change entire playstyles for one matchup. Imagine our own OoS Fortress just not working at all on one character. Or maybe it is fair, since Mega Man, Duck Hunt and Luigi have to change their playstyles with Bowser's current Tough Guy, yet they still have the capacity to fight us without those specific attacks.

Tough Guy does present the development team with an opportunity to make Bowser a very unique character to play or to fight against. Perhaps in a future Smash game we will see a much more extensive approach to the concept on Bowser. Bowser shrugging off moves like they didn't happen and even charging past them is just a really cool concept, and it's logical that his large shell acts as a suit of armor to ward off Sheik needles and Mega Buster shots. The current list of armor-able moves feels arbitrary. Zelda's sour Dair, the recurring but not initial hit of PK Fire's flame pillar, Ryu and Lucas' far hit of Dtilt. You can tell they didn't want tough guy to define Bowser's character by making the threshold so low that moves seem like they work by accident. But if they didn't want Tough Guy to define Bowser, why make it at all? I wish I knew more about what the point of it was in order to form an opinion on how to make it better. But one thing's for sure, it wouldn't help us with the average throw combo.

 

[S_B]

Helps us with most jabs and projectiles sure, but presents a new problem. Multihit moves that deal damage in ~1% increments now no longer work on Bowser. That's quite a few multijabs, aerials, specials, recovery moves and even smash attacks that no longer work on us. As much as I would like never getting killed by ZSS' Up B and laughing because all she has left to kill is Flip Kick attack, it's just not fair to other characters that have to change entire playstyles for one matchup..

Oh man, Bowser would jump to S-tier overnight...

I'd like them to do this by accident then patch it out a week later, but watch Bowsers take tournaments all over the damn place for one precious week...

 

[MagiusNecros]

TG needs to do one of two things. Say no to ALL weak projectiles. Or simply say no to what constitutes a WEAK ATTACK and not WEAK KNOCKBACK. Let's be honest the knockback threshold only ever continues to increase.

On the same token not only is Needles a weak attack but also provides weak knockback neither of which seems to let Tough Guy tough it out through.

I just think the easiest way to buff it up NOW is give it Gordo properties.

But it's going to stay the same because Bowser essentially has been the guy you **** on the most.

Other then Fire Shot and Dsmash buff. Which no one uses ever.

 

[tehtawd]

Thanks for joining the topic everyone. Especially thank you for those of you breaking things down so I can understand it better. A lot has changed.

Something I wanted to point out is there is a disparity with the heavy guys in this ‘game’, not just Bowser. I don’t think about just my main but the other characters who fill that ‘heavy strong fighter’ type in this game as well. DDD and DK. I would imagine while their kit is very different they still suffer from the same inherent problems as Bowser in terms of defensive options which prevent them from being walked all over.

In Brawl was Snake considered a heavy character? What did he have which allowed him to overcome his obstacles? I feel like bringing up this character is taboo for some reason but I want you to really consider this. Snake was a very high ranking character, and I believe he was also a very ‘heavy’ character. His ‘kit’ allowed him to rank high even considering his weight.

Somebody more familiar with Snake and his brokenness should drop 3-5 pieces of his kit which allowed his success and see what we all can think of which can benefit all of the heavies in this game.


On another note, I was serious about other fighting games. Anyone know a good fighting game which allows for you to play the heavy-set big guy and actually do well?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Snake was Heavy class. Bowser among others are super heavy class. Snake had speed, recovery, projectiles and could set up traps on the stage and set them off at will.

As you said characters with high speed and excellent pressure game and safe attacks easily dominate players. And murder heavyweights.

I believe the most viable Super Heavy in noncustoms is Donkey Kong. Since he can get in there.

Most heavyweights ironically play a game of patience and endurance.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't know Brawl, but I know Dedede was fantastic because of chain grabbing. You can't chain grab in Smash 4 though. With the aid of patches, I feel the heavy characters in this game all got fantastic grab combos and kill options from a grab. So we're supposed to be the grappler archetype of fighter.

I dunno about DK. I can tell you that Cargo Throw was completely unviable as an attack before the buff. But he's helpless in the air. Falling Bair is his only good aerial, and you always face your opponent when you're being comboed. And he's got no OoS game compared to us. For all the badness about Fortress, at least we have a defense against cross up aerials. His head pokes above the ledge when he's hanging, his recovery grants no protection from above. He's better than before, but I don't see him being above Bowser. A tie at best.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If Chain grabbing was still a thing I would be making Air Klaws a ****ing art form.

 

[S_B]

I don't know Brawl, but I know Dedede was fantastic because of chain grabbing.

I think it was his Bair (that's missing from 4) that made D3 so awesome. D3 was an amazing ledgeguarder (still no MK, though).

I dunno about DK. I can tell you that Cargo Throw was completely unviable as an attack before the buff. But he's helpless in the air. Falling Bair is his only good aerial, and you always face your opponent when you're being comboed. And he's got no OoS game compared to us. For all the badness about Fortress, at least we have a defense against cross up aerials. His head pokes above the ledge when he's hanging, his recovery grants no protection from above. He's better than before, but I don't see him being above Bowser. A tie at best.

Eh, the ding-dong makes him AMAZING because his reward off of a grab is ridiculous, not only because it can kill but because a single grab from DK typically confirms into ~40%, which is half way to ding-dong kill percentage for most characters.

Also, his amazing aerial mobility means he's not playing the "lumber forward and powershield" game that Bowser has to play.

DK is definitely better than Bowser right now, but by how much is debatable. M2K seems to be falling away from DK a bit, so I think the hype is generally dying down. There are still some prominent DK players who do well for themselves, though.

I think the real problem is that even though DK has these amazing confirms, characters like ZSS and Sheik still eat him alive (just like they do with most of the cast). Big bodies are still waaaay larger of a liability in SSB than they should be...

I still say the biggest buff to both Bowser and DK would be the nerfing of current top tiers.

 

[MrEh]

Will would regularly grab me at 0 and do 50% true combos.

DK is stupid.

 

[S_B]

Will would regularly grab me at 0 and do 50% true combos.

DK is stupid.

Yup.

M2K found a 67% true combo on Ike with Ryo's "help"...

But DK still gets wrecked by top tiers, sadly, ironically including his little b**tard cousin or whatever Diddy is...

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I think Zapp Branniglenn brings up a good point - Bowser's armor cannot invalidate moves like boost kick, as much as I hate them.
As MagiusNecros said, modifying TG so that it mostly applies to projectiles would be a good compromise. It doesn't invalidate combos and strings, but it does reduce the effectiveness of projectile spam, and would greatly help deal with MUs like Sheik, Mario, ROB, and others.
The goal should be to make opponents have to fight Bowser on his own terms if they do not have STRONG projectiles to keep him away (like Samus missiles/charge shot). You shouldn't be able to needle camp Bowser or spam lasers to keep him away. You should have to get up close and personal, and take risks in fighting this guy, just like how he has to take risks fighting you. Keep in mind he will still take % so Bowser still has to approach, but an armor buff will make his approach much safer and less likely for him to get cheesed out by campy players. Ultimately, the player with the better neutral will still win, regardless of this buff, but it makes the match more even and dynamic rather than letting brain dead players spam to win.

 

[tehtawd]

So I was looking at some changes Project M folks gave to Ganondorf. I was so happy to see them give him a true-blue defensive upgrade which fit his theme. As I remember it, his B button now reflects projectiles. Wouldn't it be swell if we had something like this? I'd love to play around with a skill like that.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So I was looking at some changes Project M folks gave to Ganondorf. I was so happy to see them give him a true-blue defensive upgrade which fit his theme. As I remember it, his B button now reflects projectiles. Wouldn't it be swell if we had something like this? I'd love to play around with a skill like that.

I keep saying put a reflect on his jab but no one wants to listen. *shrug*

 

[S_B]

I keep saying put a reflect on his jab but no one wants to listen. *shrug*

Ganon-slapping projectiles back at people would be the best thing ever...

 

[Jerodak]

There are also subtle changes that stealth nerfed Bowser in a few ways, like edge slipping and how platform edges seem to cancel every thing.

In Brawl, Bowser could upsmash a shielding opponent on a platform to force an edge slip into an un-techable knock down (on most characters) which could give him guaranteed punishes with moves like dtilt (and maybe f-smash I think)

This also gave him "unblockable" set ups near the ledge with dtilt and fsmash if spaced properly. (The first hit caused an edge slip and guaranteed the second) however, it's also useful for Bowser because it makes certain match-ups and his ledge game less irritating.

However, what if you could still edge slip shielding characters only with certain moves or if the shield push value is at or above a specific threshold? This could give a unique edge to the power hitters.

Also, throwing someone into platforms to have them edge-cancel their hitstun or landing is annoying because it tends to stuff all of Bowser's platform set-ups. A platform tech chase puts you into an incredibly powerful position. It makes a lot of sense for heavies to have good options for setting those up.

Then there's clanking. The animation on average seems longer than it was in brawl. I was initially thinking this meant that damage difference between attacks would be a larger factor. For instance, a 2% attack meeting a 5% attack would incur more clash frames on the 2% attack, granting the stronger and slower attacker with some frame advantage in that situation, which could bolster the boxing ability of heavy characters. However, it still sets both characters at +0 which always benefits the faster character unless the slower move tramples other attacks which often confers frame advantage to the trampler.

Bowser only has two trampling attacks, Up and forward smash. Then there's clanking with projectiles, which now tends to favor the projectile user and forces a lot more use of power shielding. However, projectile camping did get appropriately weaker overall, which I think wasca good step in the right direction.

Finally, for now, there's Bowser's walk. It's not only 4th slowest but it also has an annoyingly long start-up which diminishes it's overall usefulness, especially in neutral., where you want to use walking to gain ground or for micro spacing.

Ironically, Bowser walks faster when he's holding a heavy item (as well as every other character holding a heavy item) than he does normally.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't think this is possible for a patch, but I'd like to see a future Smash game turn most or all combo-oriented throws into weight-based throws. More and more I see the difference that it makes when Bowser is thrown compared to other characters. Imagine how much of a difference it would make if Sheik, Zero Suit, Metaknight, etc couldn't followup on throws as easily on heavyweights, or if the Dthrows os Ness, Luigi, DK's Cargo Throws, and more were made to weight based. Matchups against Mario, Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, and Game& Watch are surprisingly manageable as Bowser simply because their combo throws are weight based and thus less effective. Mario and G&W are incapable of combo-ing us at low percents, especially with our Dair landing break. It's a fantastic compromise for making heavyweights so susceptible to grabs and followups in the first place, and finally makes weight matter for something other than KO percents.

The reason why I don't think this is possible for a patch is not just because we have no evidence of this ever happening, but because Smash 4 is such a throw combo-heavy game. If they went and made the average combo throw weight based, it would a considerable nerf to lightweights. Yes, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, and Rosalina are all lightweight and that sounds fantastic, but I'd hate to see the effect on the likes of Kirby Olimar, Mewtwo, and G&W. It would hurt their viability immensely.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I know a great way to limit throw games against heavies in general. If you are 2 weight classes below a character's weight you are trying to throw they cannot be thrown only pummeled.

Or throw knockback is reduced by 50% if you are 2 weight classes higher then the grappler. And if you are 2 weight classes higher then an opponent then throw knockback is increased by 50%.

And as a super heavy. We can throw whatever we want.

 

[predator_21476]

I know a great way to limit throw games against heavies in general. If you are 2 weight classes below a character's weight you are trying to throw they cannot be thrown only pummeled.

Or throw knockback is reduced by 50% if you are 2 weight classes higher then the grappler. And if you are 2 weight classes higher then an opponent then throw knockback is increased by 50%.

And as a super heavy. We can throw whatever we want.

That seems like it would be pretty broken especially with the grab based meta game that we have right now. Having a limit like that would kill some characters like mewtwo who would take a huge hit because he is so light.

 

[MagiusNecros]

That seems like it would be pretty broken especially with the grab based meta game that we have right now. Having a limit like that would kill some characters like mewtwo who would take a huge hit because he is so light.

Just in case you couldn't tell. That entire post was sarcastic. But really. They really need to buff Tough Guy. Don't care how they do it, it just needs to happen.

 

[predator_21476]

Just in case you couldn't tell. That entire post was sarcastic. But really. They really need to buff Tough Guy. Don't care how they do it, it just needs to happen.

Yeah probably should have thought about that but in my defence sarcasm can be hard to notice online. But they do need to find something to buff the super heavies as only one has been showing tournament viability. I'm not sure how they could do it without making them have completely over powered aspects.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah probably should have thought about that but in my defence sarcasm can be hard to notice online. But they do need to find something to buff the super heavies as only one has been showing tournament viability. I'm not sure how they could do it without making them have completely over powered aspects.

That's really the main issue. If you buff a super heavy one way it can change ****ing everything whether it's good(OP) or bad(UP).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Just in case you couldn't tell. That entire post was sarcastic. .

I really thought it was par for the course, since your previous post was:

I keep saying put a reflect on his jab but no one wants to listen. *shrug*

But I am serious about the design of weight based throws as a balancing mechanic. To cite the most recent example I've been looking at, Game & Watch. Frame wise, all his throws are the same in startup and endlag. But they are also weight-based. The endlag from each throw is 12 for Jigglypuff, 14 for Wii Fit Trainer, and 18 for Bowser. Comparing this to other data I've collected, there's a slight trend. The difference between advantage for Light characters is not as large as the difference made for Heavies. In other words, Heavies are helped more than Lightweights are hindered. Perhaps there is a balance in combo-ability. If every grab combo were weight based, than heavies would be the least vulnerable. But in regard to jabs, tilts, aerials, and other combo starters, lightweights and floaty characters would remain the optimal pick. And they're still helped in scenarios regarding grabs either way by virtue of being launched further.

Having extra frames to act as Bowser definitely doesn't go to waste. So long as the Bowser player stops choosing airdodge as their only escape option. Double jump instead. It's a frame 1 action, and there's no such thing as "baiting the double jump". There's a reason why we pick Battlefield - platform mixups, use them. And you can air dodge during a double jump ascent, though I prefer double jump Dair to outprioritze aerial followups. All of these options are safer than the 22 frames landing lag from an airdodge, which gains you nothing when you notice they're still on top of you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zapp Branniglenn I have the formula for weight based throws from Brawl if you would like it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Zapp Branniglenn I have the formula for weight based throws from Brawl if you would like it.

I can apply it to my own data and see if it holds up. I know some weight based throws from Brawl are not similar to the Smash 4 version in terms of frames. For example, Mario's Bthrow startup varies by 10 frames between throwing Jigglypuff and Bowser in Smash 4, but more like 25-30 (don't know actual numbers) in Brawl. Of course, the only number you should ever care about is the endlag for a throw, but my point is that these weight dependent throws likely have changed.

Edit: Brawl Mario's Bthrow startup varies by 22, and endlag varies by 13 compared to Smash 4's 4. Brawl weight dependent throws seem way less dynamic in this game based on this example.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can apply it to my own data and see if it holds up. I know some weight based throws from Brawl are not similar to the Smash 4 version in terms of frames. For example, Mario's Bthrow startup varies by 10 frames between throwing Jigglypuff and Bowser in Smash 4, but more like 25-30 (don't know actual numbers) in Brawl. Of course, the only number you should ever care about is the endlag for a throw, but my point is that these weight dependent throws likely have changed.

Edit: Brawl Mario's Bthrow startup varies by 22, and endlag varies by 13 compared to Smash 4's 4. Brawl weight dependent throws seem way less dynamic in this game based on this example.

Animation progression speed multiplier:

100/Weight Modifier; therefore,

Adjusted Frame of Action = Normal Frame of Action * Weight Modifier/100, then round up to next frame?

Or at least this is what I have on my notes...

If it's changed then I might just create a new formula.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Animation progression speed multiplier:

100/Weight Modifier; therefore,

Adjusted Frame of Action = Normal Frame of Action * Weight Modifier/100, then round up to next frame?

Or at least this is what I have on my notes...

If it's changed then I might just create a new formula.

Let's use Game & Watch. All throws have the same startup and endlag. 21 startup for Jigglypuff, 26 for WFT, and 31 for Bowser. Dantarion Data dump says Frame 26 is the frame of action, and it fits with my results. Your formula provides (without rounding) 17.68 for Jigglypuff, 24.96 for WFT, and 33.28 for Bowser. The lowest and highest results are too dynamic.

As for endlag, the Smash 4 numbers are 12/14/18. Making for total frame counts of 33/40/49. But Smash 4 data dumps don't have endlag or FAF numbers provided, so we can't test the formula against these numbers.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dantarions dump has FAF for throws.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Dantarions dump has FAF for throws.

What, where?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/szerosuit

?

Game and watch seems to be missing some.

 

[Sykkamorre]

To be honest, what Bowser needs is the shell armour on usmash to be on more attacks.
Hell, I want it on his crouch.

Bingo, a true defensive option. You dont need quick anti combo moves if people can't start the strings

 

[MagiusNecros]

To be honest, what Bowser needs is the shell armour on usmash to be on more attacks.
Hell, I want it on his crouch.

Bingo, a true defensive option. You dont need quick anti combo moves if people can't start the strings

Putting it on his crouch would mirror Bowser's Inside Story perfectly yet many would cry OP.

 

[tehtawd]

Well, not all combo's work on all characters. Each character has their own unique kit which makes them different, I'd say go for it on the crouch armor.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Putting it on his crouch would mirror Bowser's Inside Story perfectly yet many would cry OP.

Maybe at first but I wouldn't be sure if it could be easily abused. Bowser would essentially be limited to one dimension of movement and have access to two attacks, not to mention his crawl speed isn't exactly stellar. Total invulnerability might not be appropriate, but highly increased TG properties could make that a much more viable option.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Maybe at first but I wouldn't be sure if it could be easily abused. Bowser would essentially be limited to one dimension of movement and have access to two attacks, not to mention his crawl speed isn't exactly stellar. Total invulnerability might not be appropriate, but highly increased TG properties could make that a much more viable option.

It wouldn't especially limit him, it'd just add a method of blocking that could be done on reaction and immediately shift into almost any choice of options.

Imagine, you face away and duck just long enough to soak up the blow, then immediately dash and pivot ftilt for a punish and spacing.

It might make more sense to just prevent knockback on shell armour on duck, acting like a focus attack.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

It wouldn't especially limit him, it'd just add a method of blocking that could be done on reaction and immediately shift into almost any choice of options.

Imagine, you face away and duck just long enough to soak up the blow, then immediately dash and pivot ftilt for a punish and spacing.

It might make more sense to just prevent knockback on shell armour on duck, acting like a focus attack.

So crouch attacks could hit him and knock him back but aerial attacks like the flip kick would do no knockback? Or am I misunderstanding

 

[MagiusNecros]

So crouch attacks could hit him and knock him back but aerial attacks like the flip kick would do no knockback? Or am I misunderstanding

He means any attack during a crouch would cause no knockback. He wants autoguard on crouch.

 

[Sykkamorre]

He means any attack during a crouch would cause no knockback. He wants autoguard on crouch.

I solely mean on his shell. Hence SHELL armour xD

 

[BarSoapSoup]

He means any attack during a crouch would cause no knockback. He wants autoguard on crouch.

I'm not sure what to think about that. Bowser could just soak up a ton of damage without having to worry about getting put anywhere disadvantageous. The only things that could force him out would be grabs, command grabs and making him turn around. At least that's what it sounds like.

Edit: just saw his clarification. I don't think I would mind it too much.