Best use for Ness' throws

[HyperGumba]

Yeah,hi I'm new to the forums,nice to meet you guys.

*cough*

So,I've been playing a lot with Ness as my main and I am trying to improve my gameplay with him so I can get better (I am average or lower ,never been to tournaments) with him,especially when it comes to battles with high tiers (a friend's MK is a pain in the ***) .

So the first thing's I would like to improve is my throws (and basically my grab timing). Since my playstyle mainly consists on grabs, I would like to know which grabs are the best to set up some neat combo's. I've been using the grabs for the following tasks (at least the always seemed to be the best way to use them) :

FThrow: Actually use it rarely,only when enemy's on high percentages and I caught him on the edge of FD,then directly off stage,but it rarely kills.

UThrow: Used it one time,and never used it again actually,maybe I missed something,but this attack never worked for me.

DThrow: Practically my main-throw,sometimes I pummel a few times,then DThrow and then following with FAir,sometimes even twice (usually works on low percentages)

BThrow: I like that one the most,that is the way how I get most enemys off stage,worked nice as an edgeguard-setup with options like BAir/DAir, and is my most effective killmove actually,the knockback gets intense when over 90 % with light enemys (I noticed that facing MK). And sometimes used defensively,to keep enemy on distance,but this is almost never the case.

Can anyone say,what throws are used in which situation conveniently? I think,that at least I use the BThrow right...any tips/ideas guys?

 

[AvariceX]

Welcome to the boards

I'll give some input but first and most importantly I must clear something up:

Dthrow to fair doesn't combo. If it does then the people you're playing either
1) aren't DI'ing
2) aren't AD'ing
3) aren't throwing out their fastest aerial to counter

I don't know how people can still think this works (but you're new so I'll cut some slack).

Fthrow: In the middle of the stage it's good against characters who Ness can actually camp a bit (D3), generally not-so good against characters who easily camp you though (Snake). On the ledge it's good to get characters off the stage, but sometimes just pummel-releasing them works better. Don't ever hope to kill with it except on walk-offs; the knockback scaling is so bad that it's virtually fixed knockback.

Dthrow: Generally a piece of crap except as a mixup. Does the least damage out of all throws and doesn't put them anywhere useful to follow up; too far to combo, too close to give you a camping position, and not high enough to read/punish their landing. Oh...also can be good if your opponent fails to DI out of PK Fire and you catch them with it because it holds them in the pillar for the entire duration.

Bthrow: Use it to kill. Nothing else to say. Don't waste it at low/mid %'s and stale it; it's not as good as fthrow/uthrow for positioning anyway.

Uthrow: In a game that heavily relies on punishing how your opponent lands I don't know how some people still don't realize this is Ness' best throw. It always puts you in a position of opportunity, and between Ness' aerials, PKT, and grab/pivot grab you have a ton of options to keep your opponent guessing how you're going to punish them. Putting your opponent above you in this game is like the equivalent of scoring a knockdown in traditional fighters; learn to abuse it.

 

[Levitas]

well said, avarice.

Welcome to the ness boards, Hyper. Is that a "chen-saw" I see as your avatar? xD

 

[HyperGumba]

Avarice,thanks for the helpful information :3

I always had luck with the DThrow since my friends still don't care much about DI'ing, AD'ing prabably as well (but I do not know exctly what you mean with that,I still learn the words,anyone mind doing a short explanation?) and the the counter attack rarely works,because I hit them first with FAir (could be that my move has higher priority).

Well,about BThrow,I guess I was right,and FThrow sucked almost always for me.

It's kinda suprising for me to hear that UThrow is Ness' best throw,it actually never really seemed to be so special,I guess I'll try to work that one out.

And I totally abuse the PK-Fire/ DThrow thingie

well said, avarice.

Welcome to the ness boards, Hyper. Is that a "chen-saw" I see as your avatar? xD

You got me,I am obsessed with Touhou characters,especially cute one's like Chen x3

Found on Google btw.

And thanks for the welcome

 

[Yink]

Heh, welcome. I already welcomed you though.

 

[kennypu]

Avarice,thanks for the helpful information :3

I always had luck with the DThrow since my friends still don't care much about DI'ing, AD'ing prabably as well (but I do not know exctly what you mean with that,I still learn the words,anyone mind doing a short explanation?) and the the counter attack rarely works,because I hit them first with FAir (could be that my move has higher priority).

Well,about BThrow,I guess I was right,and FThrow sucked almost always for me.

It's kinda suprising for me to hear that UThrow is Ness' best throw,it actually never really seemed to be so special,I guess I'll try to work that one out.

And I totally abuse the PK-Fire/ DThrow thingie



You got me,I am obsessed with Touhou characters,especially cute one's like Chen x3

Found on Google btw.

And thanks for the welcome

welcome to the boards. Just like avarice said, dthrow should be used for mix ups. For example, you can dthrow-> fair maybe a couple times, then your your opponent will get it. so the next time, instead of fairing into their aerial, do a pkf and grab them again. But obviously not as good as uthrow. He said uthrow is ness's best because you can easily juggle them with the pkt, as well as land other of his aerials easily since your opponent is in the air helplessly.

I mainly use fthrow for throwing opponents off the stage. no body likes to be in that deadly area. Don't use Bthrow ever, only for the kills. heres a quick guranteed kill %s I keep in mind:
jiggly, meta etc: around 90%-100% at the middle of stage, but is DIable.
Snake, Boozer, D3: 145% guaranteed kill anywhere on stage (for neutrals). If its a big stage and you're all the way on the opposite side, it is DIable.

all other characters should die at most times at around 110%-125%.

 

[Chuee]

Fthrow to rack damage
Dthrow to rack damage
Uthrow to setup for juggling
Bthrow to kill
There ya go

 

[mobilisq]

im obsessed with d-throw for some reason

i use it almost exclusively, because i find it pretty easy to read my opponents

are my friends really that bad?

 

[Zatchiel]

Fthrow to rack damage
Dthrow to rack damage
Uthrow to setup for juggling
Bthrow to kill
There ya go

Yes, thanks chuee, i couldnt have put it any better myself xD

im obsessed with d-throw for some reason

i use it almost exclusively, because i find it pretty easy to read my opponents

are my friends really that bad?

Perhaps, if they dont expect a down or forward throw on low %s , They must not understand much about ness...
Like i always say, "2 beat your opponent, you must become your opponent."
They can only win ness if they understand everything about him, and more importantly, DI from origin of knockback.

 

[Yink]

im obsessed with d-throw for some reason

i use it almost exclusively, because i find it pretty easy to read my opponents

are my friends really that bad?

Well, I use dthrow a lot myself. I use it from fair > fair > immediate dthrow.

I wouldn't call it exclusive but it is a nice combo with a decent amount of damage. Your friends might be slightly bad haha...

 

[kennypu]

just fyi, if your enemy is decent percentage, and you fthrow, if they DI weird they can screw themselves by going down instead of forward. IF you do this off the ledge its usually a instant gimp.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Never use U-throw. Ness is too horrible at juggling to actually take advantage of it.

 

[mobilisq]

if you use it on someone with higher percentage and they don't have any good aerials that can combat your neutral or up air attacks it is at least useful for forcing bad reactions

 

[AvariceX]

Learn to read air-dodges / mispaced aerials / landing in general. Putting your opponent above you is always an advantage. **** juggles; if you can put them above you again go for it but don't do something stupid like try to combo in Brawl - get the reads, get the damage.

 

[Kitamerby]

im obsessed with d-throw for some reason

i use it almost exclusively, because i find it pretty easy to read my opponents

are my friends really that bad?

DThrow is ******.

He smashes them into the ground, and then ERUPTS FIRE FROM THEIR BODY.

Completely understandable.

 

[HyperGumba]

Learn to read air-dodges / mispaced aerials / landing in general. Putting your opponent above you is always an advantage. **** juggles; if you can put them above you again go for it but don't do something stupid like try to combo in Brawl - get the reads, get the damage.

So you mean I shouldn't try to combo to much?
One of my usual aerial combos is BAir'ing them twice,mostly sweetspotted.

Not to go too much of topic,but is BThrow really only good for kills? Aren't there any possible follow-ups at low %'s?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Learn to read air-dodges / mispaced aerials / landing in general. Putting your opponent above you is always an advantage. **** juggles; if you can put them above you again go for it but don't do something stupid like try to combo in Brawl - get the reads, get the damage.

The point is Ness is very bad at doing this.

What can Ness do if the opponent airdodges (or some other dumb commitment)? They really really have to airdodge EXTREMELY EARLY in order for them to be unable to avoid a followup from Ness's U-throw, and what happens when Ness whiffs an aerial on the airdodge? Can he follow up afterwards? He has too much commitment on most of his extremely low range aerials to do this reliably, and his double jump is not a viable offensive tool for juggles.

PKT also fails to reliably juggle most characters when this is countered by aerials on reaction, and Ness can also do nothing if his opponent does this correctly.

Ness has very minimal benefits for putting the opponent above him. He can't really do much to capitalize off of U-throw consistently.

 

[Bartolon]

Dthrow sucks lolz

I only use fhtrow + uthrow
I like the 11 percents <3

 

[kennypu]

The point is Ness is very bad at doing this.

What can Ness do if the opponent airdodges (or some other dumb commitment)? They really really have to airdodge EXTREMELY EARLY in order for them to be unable to avoid a followup from Ness's U-throw, and what happens when Ness whiffs an aerial on the airdodge? Can he follow up afterwards? He has too much commitment on most of his extremely low range aerials to do this reliably, and his double jump is not a viable offensive tool for juggles.

PKT also fails to reliably juggle most characters when this is countered by aerials on reaction, and Ness can also do nothing if his opponent does this correctly.

Ness has very minimal benefits for putting the opponent above him. He can't really do much to capitalize off of U-throw consistently.

if you circle your pkt correctly, even if the opponent air dodges, the tail will hit him ultimately allowing you to hit them with the head as well because of the hit stun. When using pkt, the point is to hit them with the tail, not the head, because the tail has infinite priority.

 

[*Tyson*]

Lol, Avarice " Dont do something stupid like trying to combo in brawl" That made me laugh, its true.

Oh, and Hyper, Welcome to the boards as well. Glad you could join us.

All of you have pretty much touched on the grabs, Dthrow for a nice mix up here and there but its all about the "11percents *lol bartolon*" and uthrow juggle.

 

[kennypu]

So you mean I shouldn't try to combo to much?
One of my usual aerial combos is BAir'ing them twice,mostly sweetspotted.

Not to go too much of topic,but is BThrow really only good for kills? Aren't there any possible follow-ups at low %'s?

not really, because they go too far for you to follow up and there is a slight lag after you throw them compared to dthrow, etc.

 

[Chuee]

Juggling with PKT is only effective if they try AD it. PKT ***** ADs.
On the other hand, if they use an attack that can cancel the head it's useless.

 

[Bartolon]

The tail is more worth then the head

 

[Chuee]

It's not that hard to hit the head.

 

[Uffe]

If you're able to trap your opponent in PKF and use D-throw soon after, there you've got an automatic 30% on them. But good luck doing that. D-throw is also good if you want to keep your opponent close. As for juggling with Ness, it's not a problem. You want to use the tail before ever using the head of PKT. If they airdodge, they most likely will get hit by the tail. If they don't dodge, they still get hit by the tail, which either way, they're able to get hit by the head of PKT.

 

[Thunda-Moo]

DThrow's point in life is to keep with the "coolest looking throw is the worst one" quota that Sakurai implemented, forcing you to choose between satisfaction and actually doing something.

Same general applies with moves like Metaspam and Pit's Haiyayayayas that n00bs insist on using, and the fact that Rock Smash is one of the most damaging moves in the game. Sakurai is the ultimate troll.

As for Ness' tendency to have little options if he screws up a juggle, you miss the point. The fact that Ness has so many juggling options allows a good player to not mess up; he has a way to deal with almost any reaction thanks to his beastly aerials, PKT, and even the little-seen PK Flash.

 

[AvariceX]

DThrow's point in life is to keep with the "coolest looking throw is the worst one" quota that Sakurai implemented, forcing you to choose between satisfaction and actually doing something.

Same general applies with moves like Metaspam and Pit's Haiyayayayas that n00bs insist on using, and the fact that Rock Smash is one of the most damaging moves in the game. Sakurai is the ultimate troll.

As for Ness' tendency to have little options if he screws up a juggle, you miss the point. The fact that Ness has so many juggling options allows a good player to not mess up; he has a way to deal with almost any reaction thanks to his beastly aerials, PKT, and even the little-seen PK Flash.

Listen to this man.

On that last paragraph, thank you for putting into words what I failed to properly. Uthrow opens up more options than any other throw, regardless of how those options compare to the options that other characters would have in a similar situation (completely irrelevant to what throw Ness should be using). Bottom line is uthrow is the best throw when you don't have an obvious reward from the other throws (kill for bthrow, throw off the ledge for fthrow, and hold in PK Fire for dthrow).

 

[milesg2g]

DThrow is ******.

He smashes them into the ground, and then ERUPTS FIRE FROM THEIR BODY.

Completely understandable.

I've always loved Dthrow, it's so ****ing epic

 

[Thunda-Moo]

Glad to help. I've always found myself getting some pretty epic PKT juggles out of higher-damage uthrows. Circling is just too good. And then they're bounced back up for more!

 

[Chuee]

Plenty of characters have attacks that cancel out the head. You don't have to be trying to hit them with the head for them to cancel the head.

 

[kennypu]

Plenty of characters have attacks that cancel out the head. You don't have to be trying to hit them with the head for them to cancel the head.

did you miss what most of us just said? you don't try to hit them with the head, and for those people that know how to use pkt correctly, the head won't get canceled because the tail will hit the opponent first. The opponents cannot cancel out the tail unless they can reflect or absorb.

 

[Lightosia]

The only problem I find with Upthrow to PK Juggle is when the opponent gets close to the ground and shields, your PK thunder will leave a good opportunity for them to punish you.

 

[Yink]

So you mean I shouldn't try to combo to much?
One of my usual aerial combos is BAir'ing them twice,mostly sweetspotted.

Not to go too much of topic,but is BThrow really only good for kills? Aren't there any possible follow-ups at low %'s?

I would save bthrow for kills to be honest Hyper. It is powerful and kill relatively quickly. If you stale it you lose one of Ness' best killing options.

Fthrow is amazing, does the most damage. Uthrow I hardly ever use...

Dthrow I only use if I do PKF and I don't do that very often. All in all Ness' throws are very good.

 

[Levitas]

Everybody forgets about the case where Dthrow can set an opponent on a platform. This is more useful in melee, but it still gives you limited tech chase opportunities every so often, and who doesn't like an opportunity for whatever aerial you want?

 

[kennypu]

Everybody forgets about the case where Dthrow can set an opponent on a platform. This is more useful in melee, but it still gives you limited tech chase opportunities every so often, and who doesn't like an opportunity for whatever aerial you want?

dthrow is pretty much all about tech chasing to use it effectively. If your opponent is the type that uses his aerial soon as he gets out of a throw, you can get in a pk fire (at low percentages).

 

[Thunda-Moo]

Another thing about Dthrow is being suprisingly good against King DDD. While its followup potental is usually crap, I find it much superior to uthrow against the king at low percentages. DDD's fatness and kinda-slow fair allow some nice nair/fair combos to start off a match from dthrow. It might work on Ganon, too, but none of my friends play Ganon for some reason. THUNDERBEARD THUNDERSTORM YEAH.

 

[Chuee]

did you miss what most of us just said? you don't try to hit them with the head, and for those people that know how to use pkt correctly, the head won't get canceled because the tail will hit the opponent first. The opponents cannot cancel out the tail unless they can reflect or absorb.

The tail goes wherever the head goes. So therefore you should be able to cancel out the head before you fall into the tail.

 

[kennypu]

The tail goes wherever the head goes. So therefore you should be able to cancel out the head before you fall into the tail.

however, the tail is longer than the head. if a player purposely positions the head under the tail (aka circling) under you, any aerial won't hit the pkt since it is located under the tail. A good pkt user won't directly send the head at the opponent, of course its going to get canceled out. They will maneuver the pkt in a way that the tail is the only way of contact for the opponent.

 

[Thunda-Moo]

Chuee, just watch pretty much any quality Ness match and you'll get it. Or just assume we know what we're talking about and move on.

And BTW, I think Ganon can uair out of an attempted dthrow followup so it probably is only good for DDD.

 

[Xebenkeck]

D-throw i use as a semi-tech chase because, once they are thrown they have 3 options
air-dodge
attack
or jump

if they air dodge its easy to punish them for it
if they attack raise your shield , and punish them for it, either with utilt, or another grab.
if they jump, which nearly no one does, then they get away.