Best Ruleset Ever

[rjgbadger]

IMO I would rather someone use pika the entire tournament than to use Luigi and copout to pika when they think it will yield a better result. If you want to use pika/kirby, be confident that you can beat everyone with them, not just the players/matchups you have trouble with.

 

[rpotts]

IMO I would rather someone use pika the entire tournament than to use Luigi and copout to pika when they think it will yield a better result. If you want to use pika/kirby, be confident that you can beat everyone with them, not just the players/matchups you have trouble with.

Why? What is advantageous about character lock other than conforming to your personal opinion?

 

[rjgbadger]

I just personally believe in character loyalty. I believe that the character you care most for and spend the most time with should be the one you trust to earn you the best tourney placing. I know some people use certain characters for certain matchups, but I also see a lot of times someone just loses, then switches to pika/kirby/falcon 2nd match

 

[clubbadubba]

Kero, who ended up getting super lucky and winning that coin flip first game counterpick? You don't think it's messed up that one of you got instant advantage over the other based on blind luck? That example is EXACTLY my problem with double blinds. The outcome of the set is faaaaaar to influenced by pre-match mind games instead of in match gameplay, especially since we are mostly bo3 at this point.

Obviously when you sit down you don't pick your character right away. Even if you only play one character, you keep them guessing so they can't counterpick you. I just think if we put our thinking caps on we could come up with a better solution than double blind to the whole first game counterpicking thing.

My next attempt (feel free to join in guys!) is called the TRIPLE DOUBLE BLIND PICK!

Both players double blind pick as we currently do. The matchup selected is noted. This is repeated 2 more times for a total of 3 sets of matchups, and players may repick a character as many times as they want during this (so kefit could just pick pika 3 times). The lower port strikes one of the matchups (his least favorite). The higher port strikes one of the remaining matchups (his least favorite). The leftover match-up is the one that is played, and is presumably more fair than the 2 matchups that were struck. Will never be worse than a single double blind pick. A QUINTUPLE DOUBLE BLIND PICK would be even better. And so on.

 

[ballin4life]

Kero, who ended up getting super lucky and winning that coin flip first game counterpick? You don't think it's messed up that one of you got instant advantage over the other based on blind luck? That example is EXACTLY my problem with double blinds. The outcome of the set is faaaaaar to influenced by pre-match mind games instead of in match gameplay, especially since we are mostly bo3 at this point.

Obviously when you sit down you don't pick your character right away. Even if you only play one character, you keep them guessing so they can't counterpick you. I just think if we put our thinking caps on we could come up with a better solution than double blind to the whole first game counterpicking thing.

My next attempt (feel free to join in guys!) is called the TRIPLE DOUBLE BLIND PICK!

Both players double blind pick as we currently do. The matchup selected is noted. This is repeated 2 more times for a total of 3 sets of matchups, and players may repick a character as many times as they want during this (so kefit could just pick pika 3 times). The lower port strikes one of the matchups (his least favorite). The higher port strikes one of the remaining matchups (his least favorite). The leftover match-up is the one that is played, and is presumably more fair than the 2 matchups that were struck. Will never be worse than a single double blind pick. A QUINTUPLE DOUBLE BLIND PICK would be even better. And so on.

There's no way to design a double blind system that is going to completely eliminate the possibility of "getting super lucky and winning that coin flip". You could maybe argue that your system reduces the chance of someone "getting super lucky" ...

But to use the Kero-Fireblaster example, SOMEONE is going to get counterpicked no matter what since they only are planning to play Pika/Falcon and Mario/Yoshi respectively.

You also have to consider that the system for picking characters in the first match needs to be simple enough that it can be done easily even in a hectic tournament environment.

 

[Karajan]

I just personally believe in character loyalty. I believe that the character you care most for and spend the most time with should be the one you trust to earn you the best tourney placing. I know some people use certain characters for certain matchups, but I also see a lot of times someone just loses, then switches to pika/kirby/falcon 2nd match

I feel like most fox players feel this way

 

[clubbadubba]

There's no way to design a double blind system that is going to completely eliminate the possibility of "getting super lucky and winning that coin flip". You could maybe argue that your system reduces the chance of someone "getting super lucky" ...

But to use the Kero-Fireblaster example, SOMEONE is going to get counterpicked no matter what since they only are planning to play Pika/Falcon and Mario/Yoshi respectively.

You also have to consider that the system for picking characters in the first match needs to be simple enough that it can be done easily even in a hectic tournament environment.

Well I couldn't maaaaaaybe argue it, I could definitely argue it. That's the whole idea. And yea someone might get counterpicked, but in a situation like kero/fireblaster at least whoever gets the shaft gets to choose which shaft they want.

And I really don't buy this "there's no way" thing. Put your thinking caps on guys!

 

[ballin4life]

Well I couldn't maaaaaaybe argue it, I could definitely argue it. That's the whole idea. And yea someone might get counterpicked, but in a situation like kero/fireblaster at least whoever gets the shaft gets to choose which shaft they want.

And I really don't buy this "there's no way" thing. Put your thinking caps on guys!

The Kero Fireblaster thing proves that there's no way to make a system where you never get CPed game 1.

 

[clubbadubba]

UNLESS you make them play neither of those 2 characters

 

[Cobrevolution]

so you want them to underperform or something? what about those of us who can only play 1 or 2 characters? sometimes i know i'm playing a fox/falcon main and purposely pick-cancel falcon or w/e and then go samus depending on who my opponent chooses

 

[clubbadubba]

no not really I was just pointing out that we are thinking very in the box, not OUT of the box.

Here is my thing:

In a tournament set, the goal should be to have the better player win the set more often than not. In the case of 2 fairly evenly matched players with character selections matching those of kero and fireblaster, the winner more often than not is the one who "wins" the initial double blind pick, not necessarily the better player. Double blind picks can have a significant impact on set outcomes, this isn't right imo. I'm simply looking for alternatives to a system that I believe is flawed. Maybe double blinds are the "best" answer, but it is not a good answer, and I think we could put some thought into it is all.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i suppose i would argue that it's fairer to leave a character matchup to "chance" by double blind than having one player deliberately counterpick his opponent, because i don't think you should have any advantages before the match starts

 

[thegreginator]

Pre-match mind games are where it's at. All part of reading your opponent.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Clubba, the whole triple double blind thing seems better than a double blind pick in theory. But practically speaking, it seems kind of unnecessary and unrealistic to implement.

When you pick a character in a double blind pick, say falcon, it's understood that your opponent just might end up picking kirby. Double blind picks are a risk, that's why people usually end up going pika/kirby with them.

If the core of your argument is merely, "well let's minimize the possibility of a character getting ***** by a counter pick in the blind pick due to probability/luck/chance/whatever you want to call it," then my response is the same as it always is when dealing with things like this.

Nobody is making you play X character. If you picked falcon in the blind pick and your opponent picked kirby, so be it. You accepted that risk when you picked falcon. You had every right to pick pika/kirby if you wanted to.

Like Cobr has been saying, double blinds are still a 1000 times better than Player A choosing their character and then Player B choosing their character after.

I understand that we're all "thinking within the box," and i acknowledge that there probably is in fact a more "fair" way to select characters, but it's still important that we choose a character selection process that is relatively quick and easy.