Best Ruleset Ever

[KeroKeroppi]

Everyone's talking about change lately so.. Why not?

Let's take a look at the three major problems of the current ruleset:

• Falcon, Kirby, and Pika dominate the scene
• Matches are often way too long
• Not a lot of player "freedom" (will explain later)

Now let's take a look at the ruleset that I am proposing:

(as well as huge differences, there are a lot of really small differences all over the place too so read the whole thing)

Competition Rules

Competition format is Double Elimination.

All sets with the exception of the below are best-of-3.
Winners Semis, Losers Semis, Winners Finals, Losers Finals and Grand Finals are best-of-5.

Game Settings

Mode: STOCK
Stocks: 4
Handicap: OFF
Team Attack: ON
Stage Select: ON
Damage: 100%
Item Switch: NONE
All Characters Available

Stages

The Starter Stage List consists of Congo Jungle, Hyrule Castle, Dream Land, Peach's Castle, and Planet Zebes.

After characters are picked, the first stage is chosen as follows: Both players ban a stage from the starter list; a coin toss or rock-paper-scissors determines who bans first. The two banned stages will not be allowed to be played throughout the duration of the set. With the remaining three stages left, players take turns striking stages until only one remains; the player that banned stage first strikes stage second. The remaining stage after striking is the stage that is played first game.

Characters

All characters are legal.

For visibility reasons, Black DK, Dark Samus, and Bark Falcon are discouraged if Planet Zebes is the stage. Similarly, Black DK, Dark Samus, Black Falcon and Brown Mario are discouraged if Congo Jungle is the stage. Either player may reset the match without penalty if they wish for a color change. Taking or dealing any damage nullifies this right.

Set Procedure

• Players double blind pick their characters for the first match. A player has the right to chose first if he/she desires.
• Players ban stages.
• Players strike stages.
• The first match is played.
• The loser of the previous match selects the next match's stage from the 3 unbanned Stages.
• The winner of the previous match selects their character.
• The loser of the previous match selects their character.
• The next match is played.
• Above four steps are repeated if necessary.

Additional Rules

• If both players want to use the same controller port, it does not matter who plugged in their controller first. Each player has the right to "challenge" another player for their port by means of a coin toss or rock-paper-scissors.
• For matches played on Dream Land, each player has the right to force a "neutral start," meaning that the players use ports 2 & 4 so that their characters start on the opposite platforms.

[collapse= Benefits to this Ruleset]

• More "freedom" - In the current ruleset, you know that you're playing at least one game on DL. If you're playing against a Falcon, Pika, or kirby, the fact that game 1 is played on DL can make it really hard to win the set. If you lose first round and manage to win the counter-pick you're going right back to DL and will probably lose again. In this ruleset, players have so much more power when choosing stages. If you're playing against an incredible falcon, can you imagine having the ability to ban DL and then strike congo? Suddenly Falcon isn't as big a threat.

• More balance and character diversity - I won't go into too much Hyule stuff because we all know what a ruleset is like with Hyrule legal. But, fox and Link suddenly become a lot more viable with the combination of Hyule and Zebes. Puff is top tier on Zebes IMO. Yoshi is worse on Zebes due to hindered horizontal combo ability and falcon also loses a lot of his horizontal combo ability as well. Luigi performs better on Zebes and Hyrule than any small stage. The characters with bad recovers can't be gimped as hard on Zebes or hyrule. And pika, kirby, and falcon -the three best characters in the game- all perform a lot worse on big stages.

• Less camping- If you know you're playing against someone who camps the left side of Hyule, ban Hyrule. If you know you're playing against someone who camps underneath the plats on DL, ban DL. If you know someone is an all around campy ***, bring them to Zebes.

• Less long matches - Pika and Kirby are VERY popular characters. Pika v pika, kirby v kirby, and pika v kirby (as well as several other popular matches) all take forever. 4 stocks is the way to go. Don't knock it until you've tried it. TFP3 was my favorite non-apex tournament and we used 4 stocks. I haven't heard a single complaint by any player who has tried it.

[/collapse]
[collapse= Counter Arguments]

• Hyrule is too campy and should not be allowed in any tournament setting.

Ban it. You could play this ruleset for an eternity and still never play a single game on hyrule if you so choose.

• People will play a lot more defensively if they only have 4 stocks to lose.

This is a bull**** argument. Someone who's playing to win treats every stock like it's their last. It's not like when you and your opponent both lose a stock in the current ruleset the game turns into a camp fast. I encourage anyone to find a video where both players lose a stock and then start playing super defensively. You will fail.

• Match ups with falcon dittos are too short with 4 stocks.

If you're concerned about 4 stock falcon match ups going by too fast or something, ban DL and strike congo or something. Your character happens to be super fast and combo heavy, that's not something that can be changed. No one is making you play falcon.

• I play a low tier and need all 5 stocks to adapt.

Both players have the same amount of stocks to adapt. Frankly, no one is making you use a god damn low tier. In case you didn't know, low tiers are worse at the game, it'll be harder for you to win.

• Kirby is really good on Zebes.

Yeah he is. But he's also really good on every stage. At least on Zebes other characters have a better shot than they do on small stages.

• Both Zebes and Hyrule are stupid stages.

Ban Zebes, and strike Hyrule if you feel that way. God forbid you play one game of a set on a stage that was legal for 15 years and was only banned like a month ago. I know that playing a single match on hyrule will absolutely destroy competitive play and everyone will quit the game, but try your best to stay positive.

[/collapse]


Side note: before you post, "stop trying to make us like melee/brawl/pm/other fighting game," i have no idea what the ruleset for any other smash/fighting game is. I know brawl and melee play less stocks & have a similar counter-pick system but that's it.


tl;dr - go **** yourself

 

[Maliki]

ew

Tenchars.

 

[Fireblaster]

Ban Zebes, and strike Hyrule if you feel that way. God forbid you play one game of a set on a stage that was legal for 15 years and was only banned like a month ago. I know that playing a single match on hyrule will absolutely destroy competitive play and everyone will quit the game, but try your best to stay positive.

Imagine that a match like this match makes it onto a tournament stream

What then? Then 64 becomes an even bigger laughingstock than brawl with matches over 15 minutes. I don't care because it doesn't affect me anymore but it's in the best interests of the community and the growth of this game to not allow this stage again.

 

[Annex]

You had me at Zebes.
Also I agree with your defending statements. I also think the controller port neutrality thing for DL should apply to Peach's too.

 

[Cobrevolution]

let's say i'm playing falcon and you're playing fox.

you win the coin toss and ban dreamland, my best stage. i now cannot cp there at all. how is that fair to me?

adversely, i win and ban hyrule, your best stage. you cannot cp there at all. how is that fair to you?

you shouldn't be allowed to remove a player's best options before even playing them based on their main. that's ridiculous. that's why the cp system exists.

also the slower characters are worse on hyrule because they simply cannot catch the faster ones. go on, try to catch a yoshi who runs away on hyrule when you're luigi or ness. it's laughable.

basically there's a lot of nonsense going on in this ruleset.

example: falcon vs pika. i'm falcon. i ban hyrule, pika bans dreamland. i strike peach's, pika strikes zebes. we play on congo. i lose. i can only go to peach's, which is bad for falcon, zebes, which is bad all around, or congo, which i just lost on. i'm literally ****ed every which way.

samus vs fox. i'm samus. fox bans dreamland, i ban hyrule. fox strikes peach's, i strike zebes. we play congo and i win. fox is forced to play on either zebes, congo or peach's.

link vs mario. link bans dreamland, mario bans hyrule. link strikes peach's, mario strikes zebes. they play on congo. bad stage for link. link loses. link goes to zebes. link wins. mario goes to peach's, link loses again.

etcetcetcetcetcetcetc

 

[KnitePhox]

good points, everyone

Play to win!

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Imagine that a match like this match makes it onto a tournament stream

What then? Then 64 becomes an even bigger laughingstock than brawl with matches over 15 minutes. I don't care because it doesn't affect me anymore but it's in the best interests of the community and the growth of this game to not allow this stage again.

If your response to camping is to out camp the opponent even harder, then ban Hyrule.

example: falcon vs pika. i'm falcon. i ban hyrule, pika bans dreamland. i strike peach's, pika strikes zebes. we play on congo. i lose. i can only go to peach's, which is bad for falcon, zebes, which is bad all around, or congo, which i just lost on. i'm literally ****ed every which way.

If the opponent is better than you on 4/5 of the stages, GUESS WHAT, he's better than you and you shouldn't win lol.

And falcon isn't bad on peaches and zebes isn't bad all around.

samus vs fox. i'm samus. fox bans dreamland, i ban hyrule. fox strikes peach's, i strike zebes. we play congo and i win. fox is forced to play on either zebes, congo or peach's.

If fox banned DL he doesn't want to play there. Hyrule currently is banned. All this example has done is supply fox with the opportunity to go to another stage thus making him better/more viable.

Bad example lol.

link vs mario. link bans dreamland, mario bans hyrule. link strikes peach's, mario strikes zebes. they play on congo. bad stage for link. link loses. link goes to zebes. link wins. mario goes to peach's, link loses again.

Same thing as before. If link Banned DL he obviously doesn't feel comfortable there. In the current ruleset, hyrule isn't even an option. At least link- the low tier- got a win on a stage in this ruleset. He would have been 3-0d in the normal ruleset.

 

[Cobrevolution]

If the opponent is better than you on 4/5 of the stages, GUESS WHAT, he's better than you and you shouldn't win lol.

And falcon isn't bad on peaches and zebes isn't bad all around.

i didn't say the opponent was better than me on 4/5 stages. i said my character would be at a disadvantage most of the time without the opponent having earned the right to PUT me at a disadvantage. he won a coin toss. like, lolwhat? why is that even part of a ruleset?

i mean, i like dreamland mandated as first stage because of its essential neutrality. really, only link is bad there, and even then, he's not bad against samus and luigi there. everyone else has a more level playing field with basically everyone else, so i can't see why you would force a lopsided stage like peach's to be a struck starter.

If fox banned DL he doesn't want to play there. Hyrule currently is banned. All this example has done is supply fox with the opportunity to go to another stage thus making him better/more viable.

Bad example lol.

fox might not want to play on dL vs SAMUS. which is another reason banning stages is stupid, because then your secondaries are essentially ****ed. what if i'm a link/samus main? samus is worse on hyrule, but link is better. i obviously shouldn't ban it because one of my characters is stronger there. my opponent might have two characters as well - fox/falcon.

there are just too many problems that come out of this ruleset when you start to consider secondaries and ****.

and the fact that you can remove stages based on a coin toss and not gameplay is wack. you shouldn't be allowed to counterpick without earning it, as i said above.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

First of all, I can either have a really small font size or a really big font size IDK why. It's bugging out, Sorry lol.

i didn't say the opponent was better than me on 4/5 stages. i said my character would be at a disadvantage most of the time without the opponent having earned the right to PUT me at a disadvantage.

You put yourself at a disadvantage by choosing falcon. It has nothing to do with the rulset. (According to you crazy ****s) pikachu is better than falcon, pika should have the advantage on most stages then, that's just the way it works out.

Let's say pika is favored to win vs falcon on every single stage except DL.

In the current ruleset: Falcon>Pika game 1. Pika>Falcon game 2. Falcon>Pika game 3. Falcon wins.

Does it seem right that the ONLY reason falcon one the set is because the ruleset makes it so that you HAVE to start on DL? No. Not at all. That's bull****.

fox might not want to play on dL vs SAMUS. which is another reason banning stages is stupid, because then your secondaries are essentially ****ed. what if i'm a link/samus main? samus is worse on hyrule, but link is better. i obviously shouldn't ban it because one of my characters is stronger there. my opponent might have two characters as well - fox/falcon.

Secondaries are something each player has to keep in mind when banning stages. It just makes the game more deep.

In any senario, a character being "****ed" in my ruleset just means that they weren't able to use the stage that suits them best as much as they wanted to. But in the current ruleset, those characters are COMPLETELY ****ed anyway! Let's say you're a link secondary, God forbid you have to ban hyrule because your opponent is a fox main. Lol it's not like you were allowed to play hyrule to begin with, right? This ruleset gives you more options. At least now the link can play on Zebes.

 

[Cobrevolution]

it doesn't make the game "deeper", it literally forces you to cut out options for yourself to use in future matches, and allows your opponent to negate even more options with unlawful bans and striking.

again, counterpicking must be earned. win the first match to guarantee a third one in your favor. lose the first match and you lose that privilege.

it shouldn't be, ban a stage that you don't want to play on in that particular matchup, because that closes more options than it opens, it doesn't make the game deeper. if your opponent knows you're a fox main and always bans hyrule, how is that fair to fox? if your opponent knows you're a pika main and always bans dreamland, how is that fair to you? why shouldn't you be allowed to play on that stage if you win the first match, or even the second match? if you're gonna have 5 stages, just have full on striking and no bans.

 

[EggSelent]

This thinly veiled discrimination against blacks needs to end now.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I see where you're coming from with the whole "unlawful" ban thing. And my response to that point is the same as my response to the point about having full on striking without banning:

In this game there are a few exceptional people that will pretty much doing anything to win. Meaning, if Hyrule was completely legal, what's to stop someone from picking kirby and uptilting the left side of hyrule for 20 mins? We've seen it happen and a match like that is enough to scare people away from this game forever. But at the same time, we need some of those big stages in to balance out the characters. Falcon, kirby and pika are a LOT better than the rest of the characters in this tiny-staged ruleset. The only solution i see is to allow big stages but also allow an opportunity to not-allow those big stages if it comes down to it, ya know? Believe me, i'd love to not have the whole ban thing, but for this ruleset, i see no other choice.

In regard to banning stages and it being fair or not fair, I think that it's absolutely just to ban a character's best stage. If i character is noticeably better than the other characters on a stage, why should that stage be played on in that tournament set? The goal should be to get two characters on a stage that gives both of them a decent shot at winning.

 

[Karajan]

I think this is better than the current ruleset

 

[Battlecow]

The mentality of "you don't like it? Ban it." makes no sense. I HATE hyrule, but 9 times out of 10 I have better odds if I go there than if I don't. So my best strategy is to try to take you there and camp you out. Banning it outright is the only way to prevent that.

 

[asianaussie]

i don't hate this ruleset at all, surprisingly (considering the poster and thread title)

as much as i love zebes, it's pretty stupid

 

[KeroKeroppi]

It's not just, "if you don't like it, ban it."

It's, "if your opponent plays a character thats good on Hyrule or if your opponent is super campy, ban it."

For example, everyone knows that you play to win on Hyrule. You would never play there in a competitive set because everyone of your opponents would ban it lol.

 

[MrMarbles]

The mentality of "you don't like it? Ban it." makes no sense. I HATE hyrule, but 9 times out of 10 I have better odds if I go there than if I don't. So my best strategy is to try to take you there and camp you out. Banning it outright is the only way to prevent that.

which is why your opponent would ban it if they played you or any other known camper, duhhh.

Also, this ruleset is deffinately a huge change which is why i expect to see a lot resistance. And theres some changes here that make me unconfortable (chance of playing an entire set without my beloved DL or Hyrule). However i gotta say i see the logic behind these rules and it makes a lot of sense. I think it at least deserves a chance at a local or something

 

[thegreginator]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

With all these crazy new rulesets the question I always ask myself is why this is better than the current ruleset. I have yet to be convinced.

Sometimes simplicity is best. These rulesets open up and unneeded degree of complication that will deter newcomers and have unintended consequences that our theorizing won't catch.

Though I do agree with 4 stocks.

 

[Olikus]

i think the ruleset we have now is pretty good. Its not like every match must be as quick as possible. MOyashi vs boom WS was super long, but still one of my favourite sets.

 

[rpotts]

This ruleset is worth a try, but consider the following change -

Neutral Stages

• Hyrule, Dreamland, Congo Jungle

Counterpick Stages

• Peach's Castle, Zebes, (Saffron City?)

Set Procedure

• Players double blind pick their characters for the first match. A player has the right to chose first if he/she desires.
• Players strike stages from the Neutral Stages (RPS / flip a coin for first strike)
• The first match is played.
• Winner can elect to ban one stage.
• The loser of the previous match selects the next match's stage from the unbanned stages.
• The winner of the previous match selects their character.
• The loser of the previous match selects their character.
• The next match is played.
• Above four steps are repeated if necessary, loser of first match gets one ban before game 3.
• No additional bans for games 4 and 5.

 

[Maliki]

I think or current rule set is very good and doesn't need to be changed

 

[clubbadubba]

so many rulesets lol. My only problem with the current ruleset is double blind picks. At high level players can usually play numerous characters. Double blinding means based on a bit luck and a bit of educated guessing, one player gets an advantage off the bat. Somehow eliminating double blind picks would be dope.

Oh and counterpicks in general are dumb. This game is too easily counterpickable. Lets just character lock **** it.

 

[Sedda]

just move to japan clubba. **** you

















jk <3

 

[madrush21]

I liked the playing with the Brazilian ruleset when I was there. Zebes is fun

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Everyone hates hyrule

Replace hyrule with Saffron City, everyone wins

 

[Shears]

I love Saffron. Replace Zebes with Saffron, keep Hyrule. Win-Win-Win. Unless you're @Sensei...in teams...

 

[clubbadubba]

take the old rulset with hyrule, dl, congo starters and peach's counterpick. Get rid of peach's. Drop congo. Replace Hyrule with dreamland

 

[Battlecow]

I'm a really big fan of the current ruleset

 

[ballin4life]

so many rulesets lol. My only problem with the current ruleset is double blind picks. At high level players can usually play numerous characters. Double blinding means based on a bit luck and a bit of educated guessing, one player gets an advantage off the bat. Somehow eliminating double blind picks would be dope.

Double blind is the only way to pick characters for the first match ... else how will you decide who gets to pick last for the first match? Double blind is an absolutely great idea.

I don't like the whole 2/3 for the whole tournament 3/5 finals thing. Sets should be the same all the way through IMO (for the bracket at least, I can understand e.g. round robin pools having a different format)

 

[clubbadubba]

Double blind is the only way to pick characters for the first match ... else how will you decide who gets to pick last for the first match? Double blind is an absolutely great idea.

Nah its horrible. 2 players play each other that play the top 12 characters equally well. And the only safe double blind picks are pikachu and kirby. Dumb. Too scary to pick falcon cuz of kirby, too scary to pick fox cuz of pika, too scary to pick anyone else cuz they suck.

Character lock would be way better.

Or something like double blind picks, but that isn't locked in right away. Instead, both players double blind again by saying whether or not they accept the match-up. If they both accept it, they play. If one accepts, but the other declines, the decliner must switch characters, then the original acceptor can either accept the new match-up or decline it. If he declines now he must switch characters, and the opponent can either accept or decline, and so on and so forth. If both decline, players re-double blind pick. Whenever characters are changed or double blind is redone, players may NOT choose a character they have already chosen in the selection process. Opponents getting lucky double blind counter picks is stupid.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i've talked about it before but if you set down and pick falcon, the other person can just flat out pick kirby. with a double blind, that eliminates the possibility of pre-match counterpicking - which is something i'm heavily against.

double blinds don't affect that many people though, considering most people play their main first and see how it goes, then switch to their secondary if anything.

 

[Annex]

Character locks would be awesome.
From what I've seen, nearly everyone will play Pika/Kirby a lot in tourney, but most would be ashamed to consider them their mains, besides the most full-on, play-to-win types.

 

[rjgbadger]

I personally do not like when a player 'cops out' to go to pika/kirby even though that is not their main. All in favor of character lock.

Though I do understand having multiple characters for multiple matchups/styles of play, its just that I only play 1 character so its easy to be in favor of a bunch of people cop out to a high tier because I beat their main.

 

[ballin4life]

Nah its horrible. 2 players play each other that play the top 12 characters equally well. And the only safe double blind picks are pikachu and kirby. Dumb. Too scary to pick falcon cuz of kirby, too scary to pick fox cuz of pika, too scary to pick anyone else cuz they suck.

Character lock would be way better.

Or something like double blind picks, but that isn't locked in right away. Instead, both players double blind again by saying whether or not they accept the match-up. If they both accept it, they play. If one accepts, but the other declines, the decliner must switch characters, then the original acceptor can either accept the new match-up or decline it. If he declines now he must switch characters, and the opponent can either accept or decline, and so on and so forth. If both decline, players re-double blind pick. Whenever characters are changed or double blind is redone, players may NOT choose a character they have already chosen in the selection process. Opponents getting lucky double blind counter picks is stupid.

Oh, character lock is OK from a "fair competition" standpoint. I think it has its own disadvantages (big incentive to pick high tiers that will have no bad matchups) but that's a different argument.

I don't like your second proposal. It seems to me like it has the exact same problem that you mention before where the first double blind pick can be very important. Using your example, let's say I play Fox and Falcon and you play Pika and Kirby. When we double blind at the beginning, if you happen to get the lucky counterpick then I will have to play one of the counterpick matchups (either that or go to my 3rd character).

Would rather just do 3 character battle in tournament (though this has the problem where you have to keep track of stock).

 

[thegreginator]

Character locks would increase the number of Pikas and Kirby's by a lot.

I'm not one of those "we need to change the ruleset because Pika and Kirby are good on Dreamland" types but just sayin.

Stalling/camping is the biggest problem Smash 64 is facing (though I don't think any ruleset change is going to fix it). Double blinds seems only minorly imperfect to me.

 

[Sedda]

I find it funny that every single time a new ruleset is suggested, people are against it without trying it out and they just want to make the game more and more restrictive. Now you're thinking about character locks?? really??. Please, if double blind doesn't make you happy, character lock is not the answer.

I like this ruleset. Try it out! Why not?

 

[The Star King]

clubba pls a character lock is the single worst idea ever pls don't do this to me don't make me your enemy

pls

 

[KeroKeroppi]

In regard to my suggested ruleset, it's ****ing awesome. We should try it at a local.

In regard to character lock, why on earth would anyone want that??? There's a whole list of bad **** that comes along with character locking that i'm not even gonna go in to.

In regard to double blind pics, let me tell a story.

Me and Fireblaster played in the GF of the last Jersey local.

Fireblaster mains Mario & Yoshi. My Mario & Yoshi counter picks are Pika & Falcon, respectively.

As pika, i don't like the Yoshi match up. As falcon, i don't like the mario match up. Fireblaster knows this.

As yoshi, Fireblaster doesn't like the falcon match up. As mario, Fireblaster doesn't like the pika match up. I know this.

When it came time to pick characters neither of us wanted to pick first because we didn't want to be stuck playing a match up we didn't like. We were just moving our cursers around, and although we didn't say anything, we both knew what was going on.

What did we end up doing? The only thing we could do -- double blind pick.

Double blind picks are the only way to go! Don't try to take that away you filthy mongrels!

 

[kys]

In regard to my suggested ruleset, it's ****ing awesome. We should try it at a local.

In regard to character lock, why on earth would anyone want that??? There's a whole list of bad **** that comes along with character locking that i'm not even gonna go in to.

In regard to double blind pics, let me tell a story.

Me and Fireblaster played in the GF of the last Jersey local.

Fireblaster mains Mario & Yoshi. My Mario & Yoshi counter picks are Pika & Falcon, respectively.

As pika, i don't like the Yoshi match up. As falcon, i don't like the mario match up. Fireblaster knows this.

As yoshi, Fireblaster doesn't like the falcon match up. As mario, Fireblaster doesn't like the pika match up. I know this.

When it came time to pick characters neither of us wanted to pick first because we didn't want to be stuck playing a match up we didn't like. We were just moving our cursers around, and although we didn't say anything, we both knew what was going on.

What did we end up doing? The only thing we could do -- double blind pick.

Double blind picks are the only way to go! Don't try to take that away you filthy mongrels!

^This x1000

I've only played in 3 tournies or so, but EVERYTIME I always thought the character selection was a little awkward (double blind picks were not done). We were sitting there with our ***** in our hands messing around with the cursor for five minutes, until my opponent finally settled on Kirby. Then I sheepishly wandered over to Jiggs, my noob Kirby counterpick. Was it slimy and grimy? You bet.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

character lock, hello pikachu/kirby mains, you have a new member

terrible idea

and no double blind picks arent going to settle the camping usses