Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
I feel I've taken PT pretty far myself, but there's always more learning to do. As such, I'm asking you all who you believe the best PT is, and are videos of their play available?
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Best PT Player?
- Thread starter Elliot Gale
- Start date
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
The main reason I ask is because it's just not worth pruning through youtube videos. =(
Random PT players really do suck.
Random PT players really do suck.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
In general, there really are no videos to watch.
PltnmNgl
Smash Journeyman
There are a lot of people that have at least one of them down perfect, but there are very few that have it all together. But if I must namedrop, I like paool's PT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiXtIpH4Yo
PopeOfChiliTown
Smash Ace
I'd say the best PT player would be the one who's placed higher at tournaments as a PT main relative to all other PT mains.
I don't know who that would be.
I don't know who that would be.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
This made me laff.
kackamee
Smash Master
I could make some vids. PT is one of my 20+ online mains and I think I'm at least decent with him... I'll try to get some within the week
Superhacker75mil
Smash Apprentice
If it's online videos, don't bother posting. To determine the best PT, it's like Pope said...it's gotta' be someone placing as high as possible in real-life tournaments, higher than other PTs. Online's okay in some aspects, and it was cool for our little tourney things, but the best showcases of skill come from kicking *** in-person at tourneys with other good players.
Like Retro said, there really aren't any videos that show off a truly excellent PT against renowned competition. Or at least, there aren't any that anyone knows of here at this board. People reference the "Don't Work" video by palool, but that's clearly just something he and a buddy made for fun. It doesn't showcase a dedicated PT main showing off everything a PT should do competitively.
We talk about what a PT can and can't do and the awesome aspects of the character, but how many of here at this board really go out there and try to match-up with the competition? I'm getting back into the swing of things, myself...I played some friendlies yesterday against some of Montage (NJ's premier Brawl crew; dmbrandon, Ether, Edd, and PRiDE in attendance yesterday) and, predictably, lost all the singles matches (except against PRiDE, who I've managed to beat no more than five or six times out of the last thirty or so times we've played). I plan on participating in competitive events again, as much as I can, but I won't be around for much longer, and I don't think I'm the best PT out there at all. Couldn't win Trainer Tussle, at any rate.
Go out and find the best Smashers in your area and play against them, PT mains. You'll lose constantly, but you'll get better slowly.
Like Retro said, there really aren't any videos that show off a truly excellent PT against renowned competition. Or at least, there aren't any that anyone knows of here at this board. People reference the "Don't Work" video by palool, but that's clearly just something he and a buddy made for fun. It doesn't showcase a dedicated PT main showing off everything a PT should do competitively.
We talk about what a PT can and can't do and the awesome aspects of the character, but how many of here at this board really go out there and try to match-up with the competition? I'm getting back into the swing of things, myself...I played some friendlies yesterday against some of Montage (NJ's premier Brawl crew; dmbrandon, Ether, Edd, and PRiDE in attendance yesterday) and, predictably, lost all the singles matches (except against PRiDE, who I've managed to beat no more than five or six times out of the last thirty or so times we've played). I plan on participating in competitive events again, as much as I can, but I won't be around for much longer, and I don't think I'm the best PT out there at all. Couldn't win Trainer Tussle, at any rate.
Go out and find the best Smashers in your area and play against them, PT mains. You'll lose constantly, but you'll get better slowly.
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
In Canada, the best PT so far would be Chaotic. I believe I did see him at one tournament I went to, but I wasn't able to face him myself, or participate in the tournament for that matter. =_= (I was late. =( ) He got 6th place in the tournament using Snake and Pokemon Trainer.
But anyway, there are two tournaments coming up in July, and I intend to go to them. Until then...practice, practice, practice. =O
But anyway, there are two tournaments coming up in July, and I intend to go to them. Until then...practice, practice, practice. =O
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Guess I'll have to rep the midwest PTs myself, then. I'll keep an eye out for tourneys and fests.
Problem is the lacking popularity of Brawl in general.
Problem is the lacking popularity of Brawl in general.
the7eleven
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2008
- Messages
- 22
yeah I guess try looking for tourneys and watching how the pokemon trainers play out.
However I don't believe there is a best PT since eventually he will be outmatched
However I don't believe there is a best PT since eventually he will be outmatched
Superhacker75mil
Smash Apprentice
Like Yuki said, "...practice, practice, practice." Get good enough at your game and they won't know how to fight you as well. Ivy's a camper with one RIDICULOUS in-close punishing option, Charizard's has an aggressive offense/defense combo-style, and good Squirtles are practically unpredictable.
Best way to improve PT? Get **** good with Squirtle in every way, then focus on the absolute best aspects of the other two. Ivy and 'Zard don't need as much professional practice to reach their peak level of play. I'm not saying it's been reached, I'm just saying that being a good Squirtle takes more concentration.
Don't forget that since good PTs are hard to come by, few high-tier abusing tourneyfolk will be completely ready for your arsenal; at least, they won't be ready for awhile. Use your unexpected skill to your advantage. Press your opponents hard when you have the advantage...chances are that if they're about to lose to you, they'll be surprised, frustrated, and thrown off that a PT is beating them, making them likely to break their established gameplans.
The other thing that helps you improve? Definitely get into the mindset of "don't get grabbed." Yes, it's that irritating line the pros always spew, but it's definitely true. If you've been grabbed, your opponent has triumphed over you in that particular instance during the match; you only have yourself to blame. All the Pokémon are pretty susceptible to your average chain-grabber, and Squirtle is literally eaten alive by Yoshi's chain-release technique (made worse by a freakin' GODLY pivot grab), a weakness he shares with MK and (barely) Falco.
Poké Points:
Charizard = "RAWR!" ("I'll grab them first!")
Squirtle = "Squirtle Squirtle!" ("I'll move around a bunch, then grab them, especially for the kill!")
Ivysaur = "Saur, Saur, SAUR!" ("I'll won't grab unless I'm dashing in after some Razor Leaves...if I can get in a regular grab, I can probably get in a Bullet Seed!")
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
I agree on all the above points, though I wasn't really looking for much help in playing PT because I have a fair idea of where I'm at and don't believe there is much more in the way of techniques to add to my game that are actually relevant to my style.
I'm fairly good at evading the grab against characters that will just **** me for it. Most of them are actually easier to grab because they lack range and/or grab speed.
I'm fairly good at evading the grab against characters that will just **** me for it. Most of them are actually easier to grab because they lack range and/or grab speed.
PopeOfChiliTown
Smash Ace
I'm not sure I fully understand what superhacker meant about Charizard and Ivysaur, but I'm almost sure I don't agree.
Squirtle can usually be played at a decent level if one merely remembers to pressure with safe aerials, not lose ground to projectile spammers, cover your *** with jabs, and save your kill moves.
Ivysaur and Charizard are much more complex characters, worth extra attention because they have some very beneficial matchups against currently overused characters (Ivy does well vs. Snake and Wario, Charizard gives Game and Watch fits, stifles Marth, and has isn't bad vs. MK).
I'll continue to resist the notion that Squirtle is the only overall competent character forming part of PT. He has more bad matchups than the other two (going by my assessment). A strong Ivysaur is especially rewarding, since she is blessed with many frankly "top tier" weapons, although is hampered by some other factors. Charizard is overall the most complete and versatile character of the three, and is only held back by the inherent flaws of being a large character, such as being especially vulnerable to chain grabs.
I always rant about things in the wrong topics.
Squirtle can usually be played at a decent level if one merely remembers to pressure with safe aerials, not lose ground to projectile spammers, cover your *** with jabs, and save your kill moves.
Ivysaur and Charizard are much more complex characters, worth extra attention because they have some very beneficial matchups against currently overused characters (Ivy does well vs. Snake and Wario, Charizard gives Game and Watch fits, stifles Marth, and has isn't bad vs. MK).
I'll continue to resist the notion that Squirtle is the only overall competent character forming part of PT. He has more bad matchups than the other two (going by my assessment). A strong Ivysaur is especially rewarding, since she is blessed with many frankly "top tier" weapons, although is hampered by some other factors. Charizard is overall the most complete and versatile character of the three, and is only held back by the inherent flaws of being a large character, such as being especially vulnerable to chain grabs.
I always rant about things in the wrong topics.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
I don't mind it, Pope, particularly since I largely agree with you. Squirtle becomes more and more disappointing with each passing day.
I mean wtf he's like Pichu all over again.
I mean wtf he's like Pichu all over again.
Superhacker75mil
Smash Apprentice
Sorry guys, I'm REALLY not trying to come down on Charizard and Ivysaur, I'm really not. They're awesome, and I love them, and frankly Charizard is my favorite of the three to use, the one I'm most comfortable with. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...they're extremely important to the TEAM, and yes, they do have some very useful match ups (and I'm TOTALLY with you on the Marth/G&W ones, from experience, especially Marth).
You have to be careful about calling them complex though. Charizard does have the most to offer in versatility (thus my "aggressive/defensive combo-style" remark), but he still has his limits, even outside of size. He's one of the few characters in the game to have such a non-defensive neutral-air (that's only situationally useful on offense), his only real sex-kick is his up-air (???), his spike requires at LEAST a full-hop to auto-cancel, and his down-smash's exceptional range is countered by being one of the laggier ones on both ends (not to mention completely incapable of hitting even briefly aerial opponents). You can pseudo-camp, you can approach, you can retreat...you've got options, but there are limitations.
Ivysaur is surprisingly beastly too, but the surprise will only last so long against people, and Ivy's limitations are WAY more noteworthy. We don't have to talk about the tether, we're all aware of what can and can't be done about it. What we can talk about it Ivy's killing. Until uber-high percents (130%), Ivy's easiest landed kill is the forward smash, which people will anticipate, followed by the up-air, which people will also anticipate, and then punish on a whiff because of the nasty end lag. Ivy's only edge-gimping consists of following a failed horizontal kill to the edge, and then harrassing with b-airs, which only really works at high-percentages. Vine Whip definitely works, but even pros don't seem to expect it, and that's the thing...they'll notice the start-up lag eventually, and adjust to the point where only a dangerously close travelling-tip is going to hit. Thank God for Bullet Seed then, but as you said in the Bullet Seed topic, people are even DIing the launch hit now. How long before it becomes a rarity that you'll actually trap a skilled opponent in the barrage for more than 15%? As far as the up-smash is concerned, that (almost) reaches Falcon Punch levels of awesome on successfully landing it, since it requires some ****ed good trickery to land. It's simply unreliable.
The thing about Squirtle though is that he has more POTENTIAL. The others simply cannot fake out their opponents the same way Squirtle can. A Squirtle with ninja mindgames can overcome his weaknesses, at least on the ground, whereas Ivysaur can be outcamped and is always at risk off-stage, while Charizard can't ever stop being big as hell (we don't want him to, though). He truly has the least insurmountable limitations.
The problem for most people seems to be frustration with Squirtle's range deficit, or predictable aerial spam, and getting hit/shield-grabbed as a result. Approaches are difficult when you're predictable, because you simply don't have the range to succeed with even mid/close-range fighting...you have to be in the thick of it, hitting with aerials and tilts and jabs and grabbing every chance you get so you can do more of that stuff. You can't smash reliably, but so what? That's why shellshifting is in the game, and as long as you keep your hydroplaning to yourself until necessary, you've got one ridiculously strong, fast, ranged KO option that can come out of nowhere. Shellshifted d-smashes have really deceptive range, too, especially since they get the slight movement boost on a shift. It's all about being fast, having excellent control, and mixing it up. You've generally got the priority, and almost always the speed, and you're small. You shouldn't be getting grabbed because of that (even in the face of irritatingly long and quick dino-dragon tongues).
I'm telling you guys...you're having an easier time with the other two because Squirtle is tougher to master, but he's really rewarding. This isn't a case of "Oh, Brawl Falcon is just as good as Melee Falcon, you're just not using him right," it's a case of "Squirtle's so good that you're having a tough time using him right." I'm not good with him, but I understand how to be, and I'm learning. Avoid predictable aerial spam, and predictability in general. I'm not totally surprised I have to reiterate and further flesh out my point...poor Squirtle is the least loved on this board. I use (and appreciate) all my Pokés equally, I just know that Squirtle has insane abilities, that NOONE ELSE IN THE GAME HAS, worth mastering.
And seriously...Pichu? Are we serious? o_o Even with Melee speed, wavedashing, and l-cancelling, Pichu ain't got **** on Squirtle. 'Sides, I don't remember the last time I saw Squirtle TAKE DAMAGE when using d-smash, up-smash, up+B, or B.
You have to be careful about calling them complex though. Charizard does have the most to offer in versatility (thus my "aggressive/defensive combo-style" remark), but he still has his limits, even outside of size. He's one of the few characters in the game to have such a non-defensive neutral-air (that's only situationally useful on offense), his only real sex-kick is his up-air (???), his spike requires at LEAST a full-hop to auto-cancel, and his down-smash's exceptional range is countered by being one of the laggier ones on both ends (not to mention completely incapable of hitting even briefly aerial opponents). You can pseudo-camp, you can approach, you can retreat...you've got options, but there are limitations.
Ivysaur is surprisingly beastly too, but the surprise will only last so long against people, and Ivy's limitations are WAY more noteworthy. We don't have to talk about the tether, we're all aware of what can and can't be done about it. What we can talk about it Ivy's killing. Until uber-high percents (130%), Ivy's easiest landed kill is the forward smash, which people will anticipate, followed by the up-air, which people will also anticipate, and then punish on a whiff because of the nasty end lag. Ivy's only edge-gimping consists of following a failed horizontal kill to the edge, and then harrassing with b-airs, which only really works at high-percentages. Vine Whip definitely works, but even pros don't seem to expect it, and that's the thing...they'll notice the start-up lag eventually, and adjust to the point where only a dangerously close travelling-tip is going to hit. Thank God for Bullet Seed then, but as you said in the Bullet Seed topic, people are even DIing the launch hit now. How long before it becomes a rarity that you'll actually trap a skilled opponent in the barrage for more than 15%? As far as the up-smash is concerned, that (almost) reaches Falcon Punch levels of awesome on successfully landing it, since it requires some ****ed good trickery to land. It's simply unreliable.
The thing about Squirtle though is that he has more POTENTIAL. The others simply cannot fake out their opponents the same way Squirtle can. A Squirtle with ninja mindgames can overcome his weaknesses, at least on the ground, whereas Ivysaur can be outcamped and is always at risk off-stage, while Charizard can't ever stop being big as hell (we don't want him to, though). He truly has the least insurmountable limitations.
The problem for most people seems to be frustration with Squirtle's range deficit, or predictable aerial spam, and getting hit/shield-grabbed as a result. Approaches are difficult when you're predictable, because you simply don't have the range to succeed with even mid/close-range fighting...you have to be in the thick of it, hitting with aerials and tilts and jabs and grabbing every chance you get so you can do more of that stuff. You can't smash reliably, but so what? That's why shellshifting is in the game, and as long as you keep your hydroplaning to yourself until necessary, you've got one ridiculously strong, fast, ranged KO option that can come out of nowhere. Shellshifted d-smashes have really deceptive range, too, especially since they get the slight movement boost on a shift. It's all about being fast, having excellent control, and mixing it up. You've generally got the priority, and almost always the speed, and you're small. You shouldn't be getting grabbed because of that (even in the face of irritatingly long and quick dino-dragon tongues).
I'm telling you guys...you're having an easier time with the other two because Squirtle is tougher to master, but he's really rewarding. This isn't a case of "Oh, Brawl Falcon is just as good as Melee Falcon, you're just not using him right," it's a case of "Squirtle's so good that you're having a tough time using him right." I'm not good with him, but I understand how to be, and I'm learning. Avoid predictable aerial spam, and predictability in general. I'm not totally surprised I have to reiterate and further flesh out my point...poor Squirtle is the least loved on this board. I use (and appreciate) all my Pokés equally, I just know that Squirtle has insane abilities, that NOONE ELSE IN THE GAME HAS, worth mastering.
And seriously...Pichu? Are we serious? o_o Even with Melee speed, wavedashing, and l-cancelling, Pichu ain't got **** on Squirtle. 'Sides, I don't remember the last time I saw Squirtle TAKE DAMAGE when using d-smash, up-smash, up+B, or B.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
No offense meant, but the case you're making for Squirtle is almost exactly the same as the case people make for Sonic, among others. "He doesn't suck, you're just doin it r0ng". You can say that for ANY character though. The fact that you MUST be unpredictable is actually a critical flaw in Squirtle's character. Sure, he can do it, no doubt, he's mindgamey as all getout. Eventually you get to the point where you realize you're just having to work too hard to even get in ONE hit (oh god poor Falcon), and I have to say it just isn't worth the trouble. Not that I don't like Squirtle; he's just not reliable enough to be my go-to guy.
And yes, I am serious about the Pichu comparison. Squirtle's cons are RIDICULOUSLY hampering. Lack of range, lack of reliable finisher, light weight, rather poor recovery by Brawl standards, fairly worthless specials, etc. He has the worst match-ups of the three hands down. At least little Pichu could kill almost effortlessly. =(
I play Pichu in Melee, just throwing that out there.
BUT SOMEHOW I DON'T THINK ANY OF THIS IS ON-TOPIC. D=
And yes, I am serious about the Pichu comparison. Squirtle's cons are RIDICULOUSLY hampering. Lack of range, lack of reliable finisher, light weight, rather poor recovery by Brawl standards, fairly worthless specials, etc. He has the worst match-ups of the three hands down. At least little Pichu could kill almost effortlessly. =(
I play Pichu in Melee, just throwing that out there.
BUT SOMEHOW I DON'T THINK ANY OF THIS IS ON-TOPIC. D=
Onxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,568
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Self-damage is not the reason Pichu sucks. The reason Pichu sucks is for the same reasons Squirtle sucks: Lack of range and weight. No amount of mindgames is making up for that or making his match ups any better.
At least Pichu has reliable finishers. Squirtle does not.
At least Pichu has reliable finishers. Squirtle does not.
Onxy
Smash Lord
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G&W is one of the lightest characters in the game, and that's never taken into consideration. Squirtle gets his kills by edgeguarding, kinda' like MK, and Squirtle has range in the air also. Squirtle doesn't suck, he is far from sucking.
Oh and another thing, this is Brawl, not Melee. Many characters have trouble killing.
Oh and another thing, this is Brawl, not Melee. Many characters have trouble killing.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Game&Watch's lack of weight is still an issue. Unlike Squirtle, he has fast, huge, and ridiculously powerful disjointed hitboxes and gets kills starting around 80% to make up for it.
Squirtle isn't killing on the edgeguard any more than he's killing with Usmash. People are learning how to recover properly. Against Squirtle, you stay low and cover your front and topsides with Fair/Uair, because he's not beating half of those attacks. Or, you know, there's always that broken air dodge option, and Squirtle won't be able to chase and punish that with his somewhat lacking recovery.
I know what game I'm playing, thanks. As true as that may be, Squirtle is having a harder time than most since he just isn't getting inside on so many characters.
Squirtle isn't killing on the edgeguard any more than he's killing with Usmash. People are learning how to recover properly. Against Squirtle, you stay low and cover your front and topsides with Fair/Uair, because he's not beating half of those attacks. Or, you know, there's always that broken air dodge option, and Squirtle won't be able to chase and punish that with his somewhat lacking recovery.
I know what game I'm playing, thanks. As true as that may be, Squirtle is having a harder time than most since he just isn't getting inside on so many characters.
Onxy
Smash Lord
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I'm suprised you haven't mentioned Ivy's lack of kill attacks. You could always use Dthrow as a kill at high percentages, and Squirtle is great at racking damage. As for them covering up with Fair/Uair, I doubt every character can just smack Squirtle away when it comes to aerial combat (characters like Marth, and MK will). I'm not trying to say that you're wrong about Squirtle and his lack of kill options, but I'm trying to say that lacking kill options and being light =/= bad character, otherwise Bowser would rule, lol.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
The thing is that, while Ivysaur lacks reliable EARLY killers, he's capable of cranking up the damage to such a level where he turns several other moves into kill options (Bthrow, Fair, and the sort). Plus, you know, Fsmash isn't all that slow, and it's safer than anything Squirtle has.
I'm not saying Squirtle isuseless or even necessarily that bad, it's just that because Brawl is Brawl, he has a difficult time even getting in a hit in the first place. And since he's a berserker type of character, he's getting whacked by fatigue sooner than the others. Sadly, it has the most impact on Squirtle out of the three.
Although lack of kill options and being light actually IS pretty harsh. I mean, look at Sheik and Peach in this game. It's just so painful what they turned into in Brawl. =(
I'm not saying Squirtle isuseless or even necessarily that bad, it's just that because Brawl is Brawl, he has a difficult time even getting in a hit in the first place. And since he's a berserker type of character, he's getting whacked by fatigue sooner than the others. Sadly, it has the most impact on Squirtle out of the three.
Although lack of kill options and being light actually IS pretty harsh. I mean, look at Sheik and Peach in this game. It's just so painful what they turned into in Brawl. =(
Onxy
Smash Lord
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C'mon, Squirtle doesn't have that much trouble landing a shot in, that's what he excels in. He does have trouble hitting long range characters like Charizard and Ivy, though (Squirtle better be thankful that they're a team). It's not about Squirtle being that bad, a little bad, or even bad at all. I won't use the mind game card, 'cause IMO, mind games aren't too practical, but Squirtle is really light. Squirtle is resistant to fire though (isn't he?), 'cause Snake's Fsmash didn't kill me when I was at 60%.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
The fire resistance helps. A little. =(
But this topic wasn't intended to go this way. Re-rail it please. D=
But this topic wasn't intended to go this way. Re-rail it please. D=
Tenshi-kun
Smash Cadet
There was a pretty nice PT vs King DeDeDe vid I saw a little while back. The PT lost, but I learned a bit from him. Too bad I can't find it, though :/
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Yeah, D3 is a *****. That match is practically suicide for Squirtle, and the other two are even at best.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
Onxy
Smash Lord
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Why is it suicide? He can't be chaingrabbed, so Squirtle at least doesn't have to worry about that.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
D3 can grab Squirtle out of everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. If it's not a grab, it's Inhale. He just ***** both the ground and air games.
I play this match-up a lot too. =\
I play this match-up a lot too. =\
Banjodorf
Dynamic Duo
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I dont see why he'll be outmatched eventually.
I see him outmatching almost everyone eventually.
At the moment, alot of PT players are unable to use all 3 pokemon to their advantage to win a match. Playing correctly as PT requires ALOT of strategy, and is very difficult to learn (THis sentence was said by Mic_128)
Here you have 3 characters in one. All different weights. It's a very difficult thing to learn ONE character and make him amazing if his name isnt Meta Knight or Snake. With PT you need to learn how to correctly manage 3, and know the right time to switch without getting f-smashed as you come out of the pokeball.
Nah, I see PT getting better as time goes on, but we'll just have to see.
Maraphy
Smash Ace
The Best Pokemon Trainer would have to be Chalupa
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Yeah, let's pick the guy who doesn't play PT anymore. 
Onxy
Smash Lord
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Dedede can grab Charizard out of his attacks as well, and chaingrab commences. Same with Ivy. The idea with Squirtle is to get them in the air, then beat the hell out of 'em. Ivy would probably be the worst against Dedede, 'cause chaingrab off the stage, then possibly edgeguard.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Squirtle CAN'T get him into the air, and even when he does, D3 wins. =S
D3 is even against the other two even with the CG because he has to deal with the vastly superior edge game of Zard. Then there's bullet seed. lol
D3 is even against the other two even with the CG because he has to deal with the vastly superior edge game of Zard. Then there's bullet seed. lol