Beating Technical Falco/Fox

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

i feel like ive reached the point where i consider my ganon pretty good. the only problem is when i go up against really technical fox/falco players. against falco i feel like all i can do is either get combo'ed or shield until i get combo'ed. i understand once i get a grab in i should dthrow tech chase and punish but i never see an opportunity to grab.

Magus i know u know Doyoung2win hes the specific person I'm talking about. i got 3-4 stocked by his falco wat do u do against him.

 

[Magus420]

For the grabs and stuck shielding part, shieldgrab his shine if he stays in front, or d-air from shield if he crosses you up to land behind you. If you go for the d-air as they land behind you but before the shine the shine will often whiff and they'll be hit by the d-air depending on the positioning and how you shielded/shield ASDI'd the aerial. Since there's a larger amount of time between when they hit your shield and when they land than from the front you'll often have enough time to get off the ground and far enough out of the shine's range. If they double shine, you gotta hold away in your shield before the shine and going for the grab.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

ok that sounds good but the only problem with that is i often try and grab after the shine but he either d-airs immediately out of it or just waveshines again. i understand that i should be able to grab him between that but there is so much shield stun it throws off my timing. Another problem with that is ill try and dair out of my shield but the shine will hit me anyway. hopefully in the future ill be able to provide a video. until then i guess ill try your advise.

Thanks alot Magus

 

[SCOTU]

speaking from reverse experience: out think them.

 

[linkmastersword]

I know its good to stay in Ftilt range of them, and they are approaching with a shffldair, I think a jab will either exchange blows or out prioritize.

It's really the plateau of any ganondorf to beat highly technical spacies.

I know uairs can trade blows with falco dairs

 

[RPK]

Im not sure if this works, but Ive seen it a couple times. Though my memory is still a bit fuzzy. Anyways it was a match between C. Falcon and Falco and as soon as the Falco came down with a dair, the Falcon jumped out of his shield and Dair'd him. It worked multiple times too.

 

[SCOTU]

that won't work against a pillar, once the dair hits, then the shine will hit, and if they dair again, it'll come out before the stomp.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

thanks for the advise. I mean "out think them" didnt really help much but i know wat u mean.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Just stand there.

No need to rush. Seriously its all you need to do.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

If tipman says it, it must be true.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

i dont think so.

ive tried shield relecting or just standing there shielding and its pretty hard to get a grab in. if i just stand there he'll either laser spam me or just pillar **** my shield

Tipman please be specific in terms of wat i should do.

 

[Linguini]

He's right. BTW i own tippy!!!

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

whose right??

 

[Linguini]

Tommy is! Of course....psh.....

 

[pockyD]

i've had some success (including against doyoung) doing run-away bair as they approach; you generally get a tie, and as we all know, ties are almost always good for ganondorf

if you are getting hit by their shine when doing a dair out of shield, you're probably just jumping too early (wait for the shine); i don't know if you're already doing this, but i'd recommend that you do a FJ dair instead of a sh dair out of the shield because
1) it'll hit them anyway if they're on the ground
2) if they shield it, run away, etc you can still use your dj and get away (a lot of people don't realize this so they try to DD grab you, but you can just DJ and stomp again ;] )

but overall it's a crappy matchup IMO -_-... if they have infinite patience, you are toast

 

[chaddd]

Tipman's right(duh). One thing Nite told me to start doing against Falcos and Foxes that works extremely well is when they start trying to go to town on your shield, immediately roll away. Otherwise you'll find that some space animals will hit you no matter what counter attack you try. And try to learn the timing for a retreated forward and back air. Also, don't forget that whole chain throw to 250% thing. And abuse the jab. Lastly, and seemingly most importantly:

You can hit both space animals out of BOTH their recoveries. So if they use a B move off the edge at all, that should be a free stock. The best way to go about it is assume they're going for an over-b recovery, and if you're wrong, then your move whiffs and then you wait for the up-b to come out and punish it.

 

[linkmastersword]

sooo, do an Uair to cover the ledge and land back on the level, l cancel, then do a downward angled Ftilt to interupt the Up b recovery.


OR

do a downward angled ftilt to block the over b, then do an uair (reverse uair) to stop the up b recovery. which one do you suggest.

 

[chaddd]

sooo, do an Uair to cover the ledge and land back on the level, l cancel, then do a downward angled Ftilt to interupt the Up b recovery.


OR

do a downward angled ftilt to block the over b, then do an uair (reverse uair) to stop the up b recovery. which one do you suggest.

It really depends on the placement of the space animal. They won't always try to sweetspot the ledge with their over-b, so be ready to jab or grab them out of it if they attempt to hit you with it. But since the space animals' recovery is pretty limited, I would normally suggest using the back-a to fend off either of their recoveries. This is not only because the timing is a lot less of a gamble, but the 14 or so damage doesn't hurt, and there is little to no chance that Ganondorf will be touched by their recovery. Depending on where they try to land the recovery (ledge or stage), just remember the moves that you can use to stop them.

Down Tilt, Forward Tilt, Jab, Dash Attack(not so great as an edge guard, more of an insult than anything, really), Up-Air(reverse or forward), Back Air, Down-B(very difficult unless they hit the ledge too high, but amazing nonetheless), or, of course, the Down-Air(your attack frames extend behind you, so a reverse Down Air can catch an animal attempting to sweetspot).

Just mix it up and see what works for you, but be ready to analyze the situation. Pay attention to height of your opponent, the actions they've taken previously in the game, and don't be afraid to call the over-B almost every time. Since the over-b is so much faster than the up-b, you will always have time to make up for it while their up-b is sitting there before it moves. Just remember that the mindset of a space animal user when they're off the ledge is to get back to stage by any means necessary. This means that if you hit them out of their up-b and the knock back lines them up with the ledge again, be ready for that over-b attempt to sweetspot. Just try not to fall for the same trick twice, the best thing a space animal can while off the stage is mind game you, and your greatest weapon is prediction.

 

[linkmastersword]

soooo, out of the two options, I take it that you suggest the second one...

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

thanks pocky that was more helpful then wat tipman said. i do find that i get nervous once they approach and dont look out for the shine and just jump everytime. the hard thing is there is alota shield stun from one shine i often try to do anything and the shield stun just flucks me over.

ill try wat u said against killafox.

Woah did not know this thread had 2 pages O_o.
nvm chaddd i love ya buddy. that was the most helpful advise on edgegaurding ive seen on these fine boards. thanks for spillin ur guts man seriously it was really helpful.

 

[DJ Black]

As I see it, there's an extreme tactic difference between fighting Fox and Falco.

Vs. Falco I think you need to be aggresive, and get bairs in as often as you can, since there's very few of Falco's airs that counter it because of the range and knockback. Falco has that vicious blaster, which can be used in cruel way against Ganondorf, because of his slow ground movement. But, Ganon can counter Falco's aerial games easy with Bair and fair, stay aggresive. And don't forget to dwarf when Falco is recovering. ;D

Against Fox.. Now that's tricky. "Don't get hit"? Nah, won't work. Fox's blaster is quite harmless compared to Falco's, since it doesn't give that evil knockback. Ganon can use Wizards Foot vs. Fox in quite an efficient way, just space it right. Gives decent knockback, and edgeguard opportunites if you knock Fox off the edge. The scary thing about Fox is the **** drillshine infinite. In general, stay on your defense, and get bairs/fairs/uairs in.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

As I see it, there's an extreme tactic difference between fighting Fox and Falco.

Vs. Falco I think you need to be aggresive, and get bairs in as often as you can, since there's very few of Falco's airs that counter it because of the range and knockback. Falco has that vicious blaster, which can be used in cruel way against Ganondorf, because of his slow ground movement. But, Ganon can counter Falco's aerial games easy with Bair and fair, stay aggresive. And don't forget to dwarf when Falco is recovering. ;D

Against Fox.. Now that's tricky. "Don't get hit"? Nah, won't work. Fox's blaster is quite harmless compared to Falco's, since it doesn't give that evil knockback. Ganon can use Wizards Foot vs. Fox in quite an efficient way, just space it right. Gives decent knockback, and edgeguard opportunites if you knock Fox off the edge. The scary thing about Fox is the **** drillshine infinite. In general, stay on your defense, and get bairs/fairs/uairs in.

slightly helpful but i already got the responses needed. thanks for your effort though.

 

[Linguini]

Tipman's right(duh). One thing Nite told me to start doing against Falcos and Foxes that works extremely well is when they start trying to go to town on your shield, immediately roll away. Otherwise you'll find that some space animals will hit you no matter what counter attack you try. And try to learn the timing for a retreated forward and back air. Also, don't forget that whole chain throw to 250% thing. And abuse the jab. Lastly, and seemingly most importantly:

You can hit both space animals out of BOTH their recoveries. So if they use a B move off the edge at all, that should be a free stock. The best way to go about it is assume they're going for an over-b recovery, and if you're wrong, then your move whiffs and then you wait for the up-b to come out and punish it.

Most of this is right, but it's not really good to roll away when falco's or fox's are shining your shield,they can easily read your rolling patterns and trick you into rolling and following you with a tech chase when they shine you as a trick.

 

[chaddd]

Most of this is right, but it's not really good to roll away when falco's or fox's are shining your shield,they can easily read your rolling patterns and trick you into rolling and following you with a tech chase when they shine you as a trick.

It's more directed at Falco, but either way, if you see the shine come out and immediately roll away, Ganon's roll distance is long enough so that Falco simply cannot tech chase him after it. Not to mention the fact that if your opponent catches on to any of your tactics like that, and mind games you into using them like that, then falling for it more than once would prove that you're just not very good at this game.

My point being the fact that rolling away from being shield broken is just about your best option, unless you happen to have anything better than this. But it my experiences, your other options out of the shield(jumping or spot dodging) will get you put into a combo by any good Fox or Falco. I mean, you could also always just stand there and have your shield broken, too.

EDIT: It should also be noted that the longer you stand there shielding a Fox or Falco, the more of a chance there is that the Fox or Falco will jump-cancel grab out of the shine, thus putting you in a combo once again.

 

[Linguini]

I grab that **** son

 

[chaddd]

I grab that **** son

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?????

?????????

wahahahahaha.

I mean no disrespect, but I was under the impression that good space animals don't get shield grabbed.

Double shines, short hopped down airs l-cancelled into shines back into short hopped down airs, grabbing out of the shine.

I'm not sure who you've been shield grabbing, but one of our states best Foxes, C, LOVES having people try and shield grab him, because everytime I try it, he'll short hop drill kick me out of it and waveshine me off the stage. That's just my experience with it though.

 

[Magus420]

?

?????

?????????

wahahahahaha.

I mean no disrespect, but I was under the impression that good space animals don't get shield grabbed.

Double shines, short hopped down airs l-cancelled into shines back into short hopped down airs, grabbing out of the shine.

I'm not sure who you've been shield grabbing, but one of our states best Foxes, C, LOVES having people try and shield grab him, because everytime I try it, he'll short hop drill kick me out of it and waveshine me off the stage. That's just my experience with it though.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2294356&postcount=15

 

[chaddd]

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2294356&postcount=15

So you're telling me that despite his ability to grab me out of his shine while i'm shielding, I should assume that my opponent will short hop or jump, and perfectly time, frame for frame, a shield grab that may or may not connect?

I see your point that technically I'm wrong, but at the same time, I have never, and will never attempt to shield grab a Fox or Falco that's going to town on my shield because quite simply, they have way way way more options than I do.

Not to mention that overuse of the shield is not typically recommended against skilled players in general, so:

Good point. I am wrong.

But I'm still not trying to shield grab Forward or DaShiz.

 

[Magus420]

Personally I feel that the off-chance they happen to grab after the first shine and I do get caught in one of Falco's notoriously high damaging and lethal grab setups is just slightly outweighed by getting a safe shot at a free techchase if you actually learn the timing which takes maybe 5 minutes to get down. Besides, if they become shine grab-happy you can just mix in rolls after or sidesteps before the shine to dodge both the shine and grab if they really make it obvious which they shouldn't be doing. Then again, you shouldn't be making it obvious when you are going to be going for the shieldgrabs either.

 

[mistassailant5]

To beat Falco all you have to do is dodge his first attempt to attack you. Falco is almost an A+ in all situations, but if Falco can not get a combo in he isn't the best charecter to use.

 

[chaddd]

To beat Falco all you have to do is dodge his first attempt to attack you. Falco is almost an A+ in all situations, but if Falco can not get a combo in he isn't the best charecter to use.

What? What's a charecter?

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I really dislike people that are new here and have no idea about matchups to give advice.

*Cough*...

So chaddd which charecter do you use? Gnanondrof?

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

Nothing Was Said

 

[thebluedeath1000]

That happy *****, you are none too bright. I didn't say he was new here, I said the guy that posted before him was new, Chaddd gave no advice but made a funny comment, the guy before him did about falco, look at chaddds quote.

Try reading before you jump on someone.

I was playing along with chaddd, I know everything you just said, don't state the obvious. Everyone knows chaddd is good with ganondorf.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

mmm its hard to take back stuff on the internet after you've already posted it lol.

my bad misreadness

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Its all right but it annoyed me to be attacked over nothing....and No, you are mistaken again happynigga.

Theres an edit button....

Quick, while no one is looking..>.>...<.<...